therunner

Nomad does not have Dawnshard, he gave it up and has only Torment left and that won't even let him fight back unless he siphons it off. Kaladin with Herald powers likely stomps him, Nale with just a fraction of it would have killed Kaladin with no problem.

If that is your argument, then by your logic Wax beats TLR, Herads and basically anyone. It works...if you ignore the fact that Wax's opponent can do something, and many other things. Wax might break Plate with one bullet, but he certainly won't do it with aluminum one, it is too soft and too light a metal. Even if it is aluminum coating, that means Wax cannot push on the bullet, and per other WoBs plate will resist bullets quite well, so those bullets won't either. Which means he has to resort to regular bullets to try and break the plate, and those will be affected by Reverse Lashings. Even if he can shatter section with one bullet, his target is moving at speeds he has never encountered, Windrunner casually travel at 300 mph, and they are constantly accelerating. There is nothing on Scadrial that is even remotely behaving like that (Steelrunners being closest, and we see how 'well' Wax does against those). Wax has ~2 seconds to kill Kaladin, if he doesn't do that he is deader than a doornail. And frankly, he simply won't pull that off, even if Kaladin wasn't Herald. Kaladin is Stronger (Plate + Stormlight) Faster (Plate + Stormlight + Lashings) More agile (Stormlight) with better reflexes (Stormlight + Plate) Better armored (Plate) Heals (Stormlight) Wax has gun, which will break one Section of Shardplate with two-three bullets (in perfect circumstances it might be single bullet) Seriously, how is this even a question? Wax can win only if everything aligns perfectly for him, and he has proper equipment made for him. Kaladin just shows up. Scadrial technology as of TLM couldn't even beat Roseite golem, and that is strictly worse than Shardplate. (Roseite is soft and brittle, Shardplate is anything but that, even without source of Investiture). So as of end of TLM no, Scadrial technology has nothing that can do damage to Shardplate easily.

Ohh, nice idea! Generally for lot of the movement based (Heavenly, Flowing, Deepest) I would say weighted net (possibly of Aluminum) is the best bet, it will at minimum get in the way and prove hindrance, at best it will stop them for a moment providing opening for attack. Heavenly ones getting set on fire is smart, as dousing flames would require them to stop. Deepest Ones, I would try luring onto a platform made out of e.g. wood, and then lift it (like Navani's archer platforms), that way Deepest One is rendered effectively powerless. Aluminum nets would also be a good option. Generally, you want to get them off the ground. Flowing Ones (outside of nets), I would go with pouring liquids of various viscosity on the ground, so they would have to change their Abrasion in difficult to predict ways, to trip them up. Masked Ones, some alerter fabrial would be necessary at minimum, or white sand (though surgebinders and fabrials make it spotty). Generally, don't trust who you don't know, and set up code phrases to verify identities. Husked Ones will be tough, as they can basically teleport dodge/attack. Luring them into a room with thick walls, and then setting it on fire at the cost of some troops might be only option. Altered Ones attack from distance (to keep away from any poisonous gas they might exhale), and ideally from multiple directions at once. Magnified Ones, acid, fire, generally anything that does a lot of damage and sticks to the person. Devastating Ones, I don't know, we haven't really seen much of them. Focused Ones, just run, non-Surgebinders cannot do anything to them. You can set them on fire to annoy them a bit.

Kaladin, and it is not even a contest. Wax may under ideal conditions break single section of Plate in one shot, which won't yet disable Kaladin. Kaladin will kill Wax in single swing of either Syl or Honorspear. Even if we stack the odds, by saying that e.g. they start 100 meters apart, and Wax is ready to immediately make the perfect shot, Kaladin will reach him in less than 2.5 seconds (circa 5 lashings) and it will be over. Any Windrunner with Plate could do that, this does not even require any Herald shenanigans. Wax is great characters, but on Roshar, he is not particularly relevant fighter.

It notes he did not have enhanced strength, which also implies F-steel does not enhance strength. He also used F-Iron to give more momentum to his blows (which is retconed by Era 2, where F-Iron converses momentum, though it could be made to work). He is also tapping at low enough rates that the other guards are already trying to attack him. So this passage is not evidence that F-steel will grant you greater strength, or let you move items at high speeds. And physically speaking, it is impossible for F-steel to let you e.g. use swords/thrown weapons at ~10x the speed, because they would be effectively heavier for the wielder. There is some skin effect (e.g. clothing get protected), but if merely touching an item also granted it the same enhancement, it would be violating the very basic principle of Feruchemy (being internal) quite hard. There can be some increase in speed when manipulating objects, but it will still be limited by your strength. Very simplified analysis follows. Example, let's say you can exert at most ~ 400 N, that is your strength. For simplification, that means that you can accelerate your own hand (which we will estimate weight about 4 kg) with at most 100 m/s^2. If the swing distance is 1m, it takes you 0.141 second to cover that distance, and you can achieve throw speed of 14.1 m/s (if the mass of the object is negligible). If you tap F-steel, you can swing your hand faster, achieving e.g. 70 m/s swing speed when tapping 5x. But if you hold an object in that hand, situation changes. Let's say you hold 1 kg object. Then the maximum acceleration you can exert is 80 m/s^2, which lets you cover the swing in 0.16 s, leading to throw speed of 12.8 m/s. If you tap steel at 5x, this won't increase 5x, because of the following. You are trying to do the same action, in 1/5 of the time, which effectively means the acceleration you are trying to exert should be 5x larger, i.e. 400 m/s^2. Due to how Feruchemy works, the force you use to act on your body remains the same (you can move yourself as usual), so the strength used to achieve that acceleration in hand will be 4*400/5=320 N . That leaves you with 80 N of force acting on the ball, but because the ball weights 1 kg, the force you are acting on it, can at most achieve 80 m/s^2. Of course this is less than the 400 m/s^2 we assumed, so even the hand will be moving with less acceleration, meaning more Force will be left to act on the object. To get actual acceleration we would solve equation that looks like F_max = m_hand*a/I_tapping + m_object*a. For F = 400 N, m_hand = 4 kg, I_tapping = 5 (tapping for 5 increase in speed), m_object = 1 kg. Re-arranging a bit we get a=F_max/(m_object + m_hand/I_tapping) = 222 m/s^2. At 1 m arc, this will be covered in 0.095 s, leading to final velocity of 21 m/s. 1 kg is right ballpark for weight of war hammer, so tapping at 5x, Sazed would wield a bit more effectively than without F-steel, but he would not be moving it at 5x the regular speed. So tapping at 5x, does not lead to Feruchemist throwing objects at 5 the speed, but only 64% faster. The lighter the object will be (relative to hand) the closer you will get to that goal, but of course, then aerodynamics will take over. TLDR: F-steel does not grant increased strength, and as such, wielding of external objects will be limited by baseline human strength, which will decrease the speed at which you can move them compared to theoretical boost from F-steel. You will still get some speed up, but much lower (e.g. for 1 kg object it will be only 64% increase in speed, not 500%). @DoctaDajman As to pewter/steel vs steel/steel, I basically agree with your analysis of benefits of Pewter+steel vs steel+steel, however the WoB was explicitly about a short race where the Steel compounder can achieve far higher speeds than Pewter/Steel ferring. Awareness of your surroundings, proprioception etc. wouldn't be particularly relevant in such a scenario. The fact that Pewter/Steel would apparently win such a race (or at least Brandon assumes it would be close enough), suggests that F-steel is more limited than we typically assume.

We don't know yet. We had 3 viewpoints of someone tapping steel Sazed against Marsh, but he tapped F-Zinc there as well. Sazed against Kandra, but he tapped at low rates. Marasi, who 'tapped everything'. F-Steel likely will be not full on bullet time, but it will certainly speed up reflexes. which fits with 'Body speed' descriptor of it. Here it is F-zinc described as perceptual bullet time So i think 'true' bullet time is only possible as combination of F-steel and F-zinc at once, F-steel letting you move faster, and react faster, and F-zinc letting you think and process those speeds fully. F-zinc alone lets you perceive and think fast, but not move, F-steel alone lets you move and react fast, but you won't be able to consciously do much during that. I suspect that F-steel will be much more limited than most theorizing assumes, simply because otherwise F-steel is far more powerful than other Ferrings powers, so much so that it isn't a contest. There is a WoB stating that in short race, A-Pewter/F-steel vs A-Steel/F-Steel twinborns, A-pewter would likely win, which if F-steel was so potent, would be straight-up impossible So my assumption is that F-steel does Increase the speed at which body moves Increase reflexes to almost match that Increases sensoric processing speed, but not at concious level (you can see things faster, but you cannot reason about it, that is F-zinc domain) It doesn't Let you think faster, so no tapping F-steel and using the 'time' to think about stuff, that is F-zinc (as we saw when Wax tapped in BoM) Make you stronger, so you cannot throw objects at high speeds Similar to how F-Iron lets you still move (change from Era 1 actually, there Sazed was tapping F-Pewter to counteract it), but does not let you punch harder, or lift heavier items So F-steel won't grant you strength proportional to your speed, you simply won't be able to throw items/move swords etc. at those speeds (likely why Bleeder was using guns in the opening of SoS)

I'd say that would not work, because spike on its own is 'inert', i.e. the spiritweb is not doing anything, not expressing itself in PR in any way. Feruchemists get explicitly weaker, and lose muscle mass as they store strength, because they are storing strength of their muscles. Spike does not have that, so there is nothing to store. For Nicrosil, it would quite likely not work, since I think we can be sure that Nicrosil Ferrings don't remove pieces of their soul (rendering them like Drabs) whenever they use their powers, so even if you would move the charge, you would get something different from what Ferring would store there. It would have invalid 'code' so to speak. Possibly flawed analogy, Feruchemy is like diverting part of the output of water plant and storing it in battery, and requires the water to flow (link between SR and PR). Spike that is not used, is stagnant water, so cannot provide any power.

They react to pressure change preceding the storm, it is described in one of the books. True Everstorm is more "light drizzle" than 'superhurricane', so plants are likely still out. In fact, if all the plants were just gone, you would expect someone from Listeners to comment on that. He has incentive not to do that, as Honor would likely see it as violating the agreement (starving nation to submission can constitute an attack). Azir can trade for spheres, Listeners are at least neutral, and also have access to Warlight.

Plate+Blade vs Miles Plate and Blade is faster, stronger, more agile (Plate improves dexterity), and has faster reflexes (ditto). Offensively, they need single good strike to the spine, and they can grab miles to hold him mostly still. Miles has healing, some guns (that won't penetrate the plate) and maybe few sticks of dynamite. I'd say Plate and Blade takes the day, they are all around superior. Plate vs Miles As Above, but know the way to defeat Miles is to grab him and rip him apart (easy to do with Plate strength). I'd still say Plate wins, but it is tougher. Blade vs Miles Miles wins, shooting Blade wielder from distance. I don't think those WoBs are consistent with what we see in Stormlight, there Radiants (and Fused) get killed with Shardblade to the spine or head pretty regularly, and Radiant/Fused healing is explicitly the same as what Bloodmakers do, only with pure Investiture fueling it. I.e. it is basically the same as what Compounder can do. So per these Bloodmakers heal body to match spiritual ideal, and so do Knight Radiants with Stormlight. Since Radiants/Fused can get killed by Blade to head/spine, so must a Bloodmaker/Compounder, for consistency. Which makes sense, since Shardblade severs the soul from body, and then body has no Spiritual template to heal to. Alternatively, Metalmind has to be attached to the body to provide Investiture, so cutting Miles in half severs him from those Metalminds. In that case, all Plate wearer has to do is grab Miles, and start ripping him into pieces.

With the above limits, I think you would do very little. The Set had more than the above (Avatar, kidnapped Marsh, and right-hand Kandra of TLR) and it took them 2-3 decades at minimum to just discover that Intent affects Hemalurgy, and you might not have to kill donor (but the spikes created this way still don't work properly). So anyone working with even fewer information sources would take longer than that, more than half a century easily to even start making progress. Starting from animal model might be useful to derive general properties of Hemalurgy, but would be of limited use for direct applications, as the spiritwebs and bindpoints will be too different. So eventually you will have to move on to human experimentation, and that will be ugly. As Dux points out, studying spiritweb is likely the best, as afterall that is what you are manipulating. I don't think either the Flaw or unwanted warping or harming of donors can be overcome, not fully. Hemalurgy is repeatedly stressed as always damaging, to both donor and recipient, and repellent to many other forms of Investiture. The Flaw is due to wide-open cracks in spiritweb, as Hemalurgy is smashing other pieces in. You might limit it, but those cracks will be present always because that is how Hemalurgy functions in the first place. Unwanted warping of spiritweb is also a result of Hemalurgy, as it it working around the unnatural addition. It might be limited with better knowledge of how to place spikes, and by placing weaker spikes, but some damage from the 'graft' will be present. Unwanted warping of bodies (for non-power spikes) also seems to be unavoidable, as it is likely result of the spiritweb modification expressing itself. You cannot have spiritually greater strength/better senses without your body changing to adapt to that. Harming donors is also unavoidable, at least temporarily, as you are literally ripping of parts of their soul. Even if Set non-killing spikes can be made to work, those people are diminished, and there is no guarantee they could heal that wound. Pain is likely the one that could be diminished as advances in the anestesia appear. Though I would not be surprised if e.g. putting donor under led to sub-par spikes, as after all Hemalurgy is Ruinous art. So I don't think Hemalurgy will ever get to that point, as it is being positioned as 'Power at a price (moral and physical as well)' kind of magic, and removing all drawbacks would not lead to good storytelling.

I would say no, simply because in no way is Metalmind even semi-independent. It is just storage of Investiture, just one keyed to particular person. Maybe eventual Awakened Metalmind's could count, but I suspect that those have sufficiently separate Identities that Feruchemist could not take them over.

I'll note that she likely could do it only because: Is daugther of Herald (and as Returned show, Cognitive entities and their offspring have more malleable Identities) Already has experience with altering her Identity (her Alters) Has touched Drehy's Cognitive Representation in RoW I think, giving her very precise knowledge of what it is to be Drehy All in all, she likely would find it difficult to do on command, unless she has previously experienced someones' Identity.

Dalinar is challenged on that decision, they just also know that once he decides on something, they won't change his mind. If you mean against Rayse, then yes, there it would likely "work", though it would again just prolong the cycle of Desolations. Once you know Rayse is no longer the vessel, knowing capabilities of the Shard and looking for other options becomes much more important than previously.

I wouldn't say so, not having a logical reason for something is not a plot hole, just human nature. Dalinar conviction is that the battle will be superfluous, because well, why would being so much smarter and knowledgeable than him play it straight? Ascending to the same level as Odium, or at least getting better understanding of both him and Honor, was something he hoped would close the gap. Edit: accidentally submitted before finishing I simply don't agree that the series was primarily about war, war was an aspect of it, but not the core. The battles we do see challenge protagonists in some way, which not every battle will. Bridge crews never fought, it was very different sort of stress to what soldier would experience. It is horrible yes, but in different way than what e.g. fall of Kholinar is. I always saw the series as clash between ideas, not just armies/superheroes fighting. And frankly, everything not in SR is just three battles: One fought with just strength of arms (Azir) One fought with arms and subterfuge/misdirection (Narak) One fought not with arms, but with words (Theylen) Negotiations are important part of any conflict, if you can strip your opponent of allies without fighting, that is the best move you can make.

All you write is true, I'll just offer some of my additional perspectives on few of these Azimir: Also some small amounts of philosophy/strategy: introduces Sun Maker's gambit, both develops and challenges Adolin's perspective on what is right, setups Azir for Arc 2 Shattered Plains: I don't see the combat as superfluous, but I can see why you can see it that way. It shows the sometimes victory is not possible, and you have to involve a third party and think sideways (later echoed with Dalinar) Cleansing: I'd say double subverted. Szeth both was Truthless, Desolation didn't (yet) come back and there was no Unmade, that is the subversion. But then it is shown that Ishar was corrupted by Odium's Investiture (which is at least part of the Unmaking process), so in a sense there was Odium's influence. Basically, Szeth was somewhat right, and somewhat wrong, which I think nicely plays into his core problem. I view many of the above as 'plot', including Jasnah (as it sets her up for her character arc in Arc 2 presumably), but again, that is just my opinion on the matter, and I can see your angle. As a sidenote, I enjoy this discussion quite a bit, you gave me some interesting perspectives to think about.

So which is it, is Odium unwilling to hurt his subjects, or will he force them to suffer due to lack of warlight? You can't have it both ways. Plus, Odium didn't seem to have problem with Desolations, hells Rayse mentions that next time he will purposefully go after innocents, just to see what Tanavast will do. His entire reaction to destruction of Ashyn was "Well, that got out of hand, lol". Odium is not as caring as you portray it as being. Honorspren learned that in RoW, their leadership didn't care, and they didn't send anyone to help. Few left, but that was it. They even imprisoned a Herald, when he tried to do something they didn't like. Spren don't worship Honor, and won't blindly follow whatever he says. But why didn't he leave Ashyn with his surgebinders in the first place? If he already has surgebidning, why not leave? All Taravangian has to do is provoke the humans, and Dalinar doesn't have such direct control over his people. That was Tanavast, not Dalinar. And fighting Odium directly is the exact thing Dalinar wants to avoid, because it would destroy Roshar.

Fair. It was kinda minibossy, but I liked it for showing of Surgebinding in hands of actual masters, plus it gave space to Szeth to confront his past with them, and contrasted Nightblood and 12124.

That escalation was invetiable, it was the entire goal of Rayse to do that. And Retribution does not start any universal conflict, instead he goes into hiding because he is not ready. That is a straight up upgrade, Odium/Retribution cannot be as present on Roshar as he was. People of Coalition also won't be forced to fight in that conflict, and have peace for now, which is again improvement. Neither do people of Theylen, or of the Listener nation. So no, people of Roshar still have some choice in the matter. Honor was cajoled for millennia by Tanavast, and didn't like it, since then developed rudimentary mind. Do you really think it could be reasoned with? If you think it does not make sense, sure. At most I am seeing that Heralds cannot hold so much of Honor's power, nothing about Tanavast deteriorating control, but perhaps I am just not searching properly. Yes. If you think spren will blindly follow Honor, please do provide any evidence. Per Tanavast himself, they were created to have ideas of their own. And indeed they do, some aligned with Odium even. Some chose to sit the war out entirely. Some chose third side. They are not monolith. He had access to them back on Ashyn, if it was so simple, why didn't he leave when confronted? Invested Arts are dependent on Shard, but also on the planet/star system, so he likely couldn't just get up and recreate Surgebinding from scratch, at least not very easily. And he does not need to subdue Radiants, as has been repeated ad nausem, Shardbearers/Radiants cannot keep ground, you need conventional forces for that. And Odium has advantage there. To you he is man grown, because you are reading a book. To Dalinar, he is his grandnephew he saw few hours ago. He won't just mentally switch like that, no one would. While the power wants to be free, it also wants conflict. So staying, while maintaing conflict to get free, is valid, while suboptimal. Power didn't stop Rayse from making deal that would see its imprisonment continue, so there is no way it would force Taravangian to accept that deal.

Well, that point can be done about anything. If it was written differently, it would be different, is a bit vacuous statement.

Reasonable approach, on both fronts. Maybe that's just me missing it, but in text it didn't seem to me that claiming to speak for Honor gave Dalinar much soft power, if anything it was causing more issues and suspicions. But that can be me simply missing it. As for spren, Oath gate spren did, however I didn't get the impression that others particularly cared, see e.g. Reachers, or Highspren. Yep, agreed. Which makes it all the more important to take that into account, so as to have at least some checks on them. In a way yes, ultimately any power state has always derives from force, state which is unable enforce its laws is no state at all. So technically yes, if the Sibling decides something, there is not much anyone can do about it, giving the system certain level of absolutism.

Well, yes. We are judging the previous books on the basis of what we know happened later. Ah, fair enough. On that we are in agreement it seems. Fair enough, though I don't think so. Why I think that is three fold: It was introduced that power can leave Vessel It was setup that Power of Honor will be learning (out of Stormlight) Harmony will likely change to Discord So I think the setup is that power of Honor will be learning, and will end up either leaving Taravangian, or will shift the Intent to something more benign. Though this is likely only for the near end of the series. I think that will be large theme yes, Renarin+Rlain, and fact that Renarin will be one of main characters cements that. But I don't think that will be all there will be to it, as Herelds will also get more focus, suggesting certain role. Not really, if anything, Ghostbloods started that first, with their meddling. Plus Rosharan cell was on verge of going rogue. The call Shallan had with Kelsier was mostly cordial, more establishing that Roshar should be off limits to them. Perfectly fine opinion to have. I disagree on that. War takes many forms, not just battles. RoW was in effect a siege from within, plus the opening chapters were an entire military operation (evacuation of Hearthstone), and there is the Emul offensive as you mention. WaT is basically nothing but war, what with Battle of Azir, and Battle of Shattered Plains, where we see both full Invested battle and also how even non-Invested soldiers can hold with good tactics. Well, epidemics have at least the explanation in the heavily Invested nature of Roshar, even though I admit that can be considered copout. But frankly these details are omitted in most epic high fantasy. He primarily focuses on how war traumatizes mentally, and that is a theme that is heavily explored, including with the refugees in RoW. Somewhat, though there is more than just that. Happy to see someone concrete who also loved Navani's storyline. Oddly, though I agree that a lot of book is more about philosophy, I also think it is the most plot heavy to date, and to some extant to detriment of overall quality. Interesting how we can have such different read of it.

Honor is kinda dumb, that is literally a plot point. Even if, Dalinar couldn't really do much to help directly, he would no longer be Bondsmith and would be bound by prior deals Tanavast made with Odium, which prevent him from interfering. The only way for Odium to get released is for Honor to rescind the deal/oath made, which is exactly what makes Honor reject Dalinar. Honor only care that Oaths be kept, you cannot just rescind them without angering the power. ...if book is telling you something, that is what it is. You forget that there are humans in Odiums territories, either way contract goes. Odium can have them all tortured or enslaved, and vast majority of Singers won't care, since after all, that is what humans were doing to them for millenia. Mishram as well, she just barely does not want to kill all humans herself. Yeah, it will, like literally the entire history of Roshar shows. Fused being destroyed would likely let Odium make more and keep to the deal made with Honor. Plus, so can spren, and those were never mortal, unlike Fused. Citation needed, Honorspren didn't even listen to Stormfather. Spren will do what they want, not what Honor tells them. Like people. And now, they would have to risk their live to do so, thanks to anti-light. Heralds cannot turn the tide themselves, and Oathpact no longer works due to Everstorm (even before it became the True Everstorm). At that stage Heralds are only super-Radiants, but still broken by millennia of fighting and dying and being tortured. Honor didn't infect them with insanity, that was Ishar after he used Odium's power. Odium went to Rosharan system on purpose, even when Tanavast opposed him on Ashyn he stayed until it broke the planet. Why would he leave now, when Dalinar cannot touch him without destroying the planet? And humans were slowly losing the Desolations, even with Radiants and Honor and Heralds. Nothing substantial changed about that, in fact, humans are in even worse situation, since Odium directly controls over half of Roshar in either outcome, and has his own Storm now. If you think Dalinar is capable of killing what is to him a child, his grandnephew even, you have payed zero attention to him. Even before his character development, Dalinar didn't kill a child, that led to the entire Rift situation later on. And that was Dalinar in his Blackthorn phase, not Bondsmith Dalinar, who puts Journey Before Destination. Dalinar couldn't kill Gavinor without breaking his Oaths, and hence killing Stormfather. Sure feel free to do that, no one is forcing you to do anything else.

In spirit of your nickname, that is not true. If Kaladin went to Shinovar alone, he would have died at the Elsecaller trial, because he simply couldn't get himself back. He'd also likely fail at the Stoneward temple, because Adhesion nor Reverse Lashing would let him break the stone like Division did for Szeth. If he beelined to Bondsmith temple, Ishar would kill him, Nale already showed that Kaladin simply cannot match Heralds once they get serious. So no, Kaladin couldn't solve the Shinovar problem himself, and Szeth was in fact crucial (as was Nightblood).

Worse outcome than continuation of millennia of war? Because that is what would have happened, it was the only possible outcome of the contest. Remember that the only reason there was peace on Roshar the last ~4000 years is that Heralds chose to abandon their Oaths. Dalinar does the same, for similar reason. Odium has already won. Killing Gavinor would give them Alethkar back, but would freeze the conflict. Odium would provoke humans into breaking the terms of contest, restarting the conflict and Dalinar couldn't really help humans because they broke an Oath, the Power wouldn't stand for that. There would be no freedom to choose, Odium would force a restart to the conflict as the book explicitly lays out, and then they would be in much worse position than previously. Rayse wouldn't do that, so against him the contest would work as intended, but they are fighting Taravangian.

Hmm, interesting perspective. It does make sense to view it like that. I would say even from SA1 it is the story of war being lost, because every book is ended in worse position then it began. TWoK: Battle of Tower is a disaster. Dalinar survives, and Kaladin escapes. But Dalinar loses most of his army, and gets only bridgecrews in return. WoR: Protagonists lose the Battle of Narak, Singers/Fused/Odium return, though they find Urithiru. O: Battle of Theylen field is won and Coalition is saved, but Jah Kaved/Khabranth/Skybreakers switched sides. RoW: Tower is saved, but anti-light has gotten into hands of Fused. WaT: Losses everywhere. The war began the moment Gavilar encountered Listeners, it's just that humans didn't know it, which is what caused them to lose. They were fighting from position of ignorance. I think we just don't notice it as much, because in the first few books, the cost is not paid by the protagonists, but the cost is there. Also, individuals are getting stronger (Radiants progressing) but as a whole, their forces are being depleted faster than Odiums. Here I (somewhat) disagree Having smaller element of the story be variation on the same theme is perfectly valid choice. And the larger story of SA1-5 is less about horrors of war, as you say, the books don't actually show war that much. They are about conflict, between emotions and bonds. Characters struggle with they want to do, vs what they should do. Kaladin most prominently in book 2, Dalinar throughout the series, Venli... Taravangian also, but unlike the protagonists he only claims to do what he should do/must do, but it is always in service of what he wants. I disagree, To me all the books are about hope. Oathbringer is very much of hope, hope and compassion stays Jasnah's hand, hope that he can be something better lets Dalinar refuse Odium. Rhythm of War is also of hope, Navani hopes to work with Raboniel to end the war, and in the end in the smallest of ways succeeded (when Raboniel defended her against Moash, enabling Navani to bond the Tower). Kaladin inspires hope in people of Urithiru (the Shash symbol). And Wind and Truth is also about hope, we even get a monologue on that in the beginning. Dalinar does what he does because he hopes it will enable better solution then just prolonging the cycle of Desolations. Adolin stakes everything on hope, and is rewarded when Maya returns. Sigzil gets everything on a crazy gambit and it works. It is telling that the one character who loses in the worst fashion with no silver lining (Jasnah) is the one who explicitly denounces hope. Hope is more important when things are going poorly not less, in certain languages there is a saying "Hope dies last", because it is important to hold on to it. Well, SA1-5 are only half of the story, so of course they don't necessarily follow that structure. When looking at how the series as whole will be, end of SA5 is the middle, and then the setback is placed appropriately. SA5 was never the endpoint of the full story, only a pause. It can be considered the end of the Dalinar's story, story that began the night Gavilar died and Dalinar decided to seek out Nightwatcher, and yes it is a tragic story. It is also an endpoint for Kaladin's character development, he has overcome his demons, and is now finally in a healthy place.