therunner

Could they? We have learned that at this stage even Hemalurgically granted powers cannot allow Compounding (either due to Identity issues, or due to some more spiritual reasons to do with natural state of souls). Also, while theoretically possible per WoBs, neither medallions nor unkeyed metalminds were ever used for Compounding, and no character in TLM even talks about that usage this them being available for ~6 years at this point, suggesting that it is either flat out not actually possible, or requires a lot more work to enable. At this stage only one who could get those levels of speed is a natural steel-steel Twinborn, and there is no guarantee one is even alive. Spheres are still primarily a currency on Roshar, there is most likely relatively little variation in quality of cut, as up until ~1year ago there was no reason to be that interested in it. There is no suggestion that Radiants don't just grab whatever is on hand. During the first two books that was definitely what they were doing, as there would not have been time to experiment which particular sphere holds Stormlight better or no. Except the Set have not actually been able to finish their rockets, so Scadrial does not have rockets just yet, and might not for years without Bavadin giving out hints. Even Bilming navy guns have a range far shorter than just 20 miles, despite their public posturing, so I would say ~10 miles deep defensive perimeter should be sufficient, and thanks to Windrunners Roshar has air superiority. Additionally, as you don't assume united planets, Northern Scadrial has very little Harmonium and even less Trellium and no way to get more so this would be limited strategy, and Souther Scadrial conversely has no rockets or artillery from what we have seen and no Trellium at all. One thing is to realize guns to shoot down airship would be a good idea, another to actually develop it. Torpedoes are trivial idea (blow a hole below waterline), but it took ~400 years from being first proposed to being actually created (and the first ones were just mines, from mines to actual ones it took further 200 years). Southerns have good fabrial tech, but their airships as of few years ago are primarily made out of wood (see Brunstell) and use only gaslight, not electricity. That does not bode well for knowledge of metallurgy that would be needed to construct advanced weapons, as metal ship would actually be both lighter and with better structural integrity. Also if I remember correctly, there did not seem to be any mention of regular guns on Southerners, only their Harmonium tech (please correct me If I am wrong). From this we can estimate that while Southern Scadrial has better fabrial knowledge, they lag behind Northern Scadrial on 'regular' science by a couple of decades. They are only unreliable because current Radiants need to figure it all out on their own. Jasnah was first Elsecaller in 2 millenia, of course it took her awhile to figure how to do something, especially if she did not have a lot of Stormlight on her. Now she can teach it to others, who will have much easier time, similarly to how Windrunners benefit from things Kaladin painfully learned. Now for new things from TLM: Invested Arts - Scadrial is much weaker on this front then we previously believed No compounding through Hemalurgy, meaning no armies of incredibly difficult to kill Metalborn with twin-Gold, nor steel-Twins. Similarly, neither medallions nor unkeyed metalminds don't seem to allow for Compounding, as no one mentions it despite them being available for 6 years and scientist actively researching in Southern technology. Kelsier is not Fullborn as has been believed, and in fact is without powers. Bands of Mourning are seemingly depleted, with no known way to recharge them. Only person capable of compounding is Marsh, and due to his nature he seemingly needs to rest quite often. Without atium he woud be even more vulnerable. Maybe they could produce Lerasium, but only if Sazed actually knows and shares what he learned. Also this is conditional on him being off-balance, as otherwise Harmonium cannot be split at all. Also splitting it requires Trellium, which is partially consumed in the process, and since Trell retreated off-world they currently have no way to get more further limiting applicability. Science - there has been quite a progress Electricity is a normal staple Machine guns are becoming a staple among the more militarized groups (i.e. Set and Ghostbloods) Grenade launchers are becoming a thing. Bavadin provided knowledge on rocketry, however Set despite years of trying have not yet been able to get it to work. Without nudging from Bavading, they could be years or even a decade away, as Telsin implies they don't really understand some of the fundamentals necessary. Ettmetal-Trellium bombs are literally nukes (though without fallout, so superior), based on description in small kiloton range at most. Main limitation right now will be Trellium, as Bavadin left the planet, so there should not be any source left. Population Elendel Basin has population circa ~10 million (it is mentioned that Elendel hosts roughly half of the population, and has population of at most 5 million, based on previous statements). Elendel has military only 10 000 strong, which includes navy protecting shipping routes. Even if all outer cities are more heavily militarized, Elendel Basin has at most ~30 000 combat ready troops. Contrast with Roshar, where Alethkar alone has ~100 000 strong army. No numbers on Malwish Consortium, sadly.

Huh, interesting. I would say this pertains more to just 'breathing in' the functioning Stormlight, or pulling it in other ways, but it could be read your way too. Personally I'd expect at the very minimum for a Leeching to have adverse effect on the spren that are creating the plate, and Duralumin boosted as well, even for a living plate. And now I am off to read the book, so I may participate more fully.

Still in process of reading (damn you real life!!) but I have a few points to make, purely reactionary at this stage. Not really no. Wax would soon run out of metals (especially when using Duralumin), and any 3rd Oath Windrunner would take him out, much less 4th Oath. Reverse lashing and attractor fabrials would help defend against anything coin shot could do, lurchers would be useful in this situation. If they started soulcasting arrow heads to rock, or aluminun, Scadrial would start having issues. Leecher would leach only armor, not Kaladin. And how will Leecher touch a Radiant, unless they have F-steel, atium or are extraordinarily lucky? Typical Radiant has a Shardblade, or powers that kill at touch. And Elsecallers can soulcast weapons and ammunition away, safely from Cognitive. Windrunners and Skybreakers are bombarding Scadrians without a care in the world, from beyond reach of Scadrian guns, or from sky. And reverse lashings pull ammunition aside. Stonewards can create supernaturally strong fortifications. Lightweavers create large scale illusions making targeting at range difficult, or outright impossible, reducing Scadrians to spray-and-pray tactics. Truthwatchers and edgedancers, gather and heal wounded, moving them to fortifications. A couple of Elsecallers with a Bondsmith could outright destroy or cripple most of equipment Scadrial could field, and there is little Scadrial could do about it. Modern firearms are great equalizer, but couple of hundred people in supernatural powered armor with superpowers are on a different scale. Edit: And additionally Scadrial has far smaller population than Roshar (as far as I know), circa 5-10x smaller, and are far less militarized, further hindering them.

And that in turn would suggest that the Plate is always formed from the same windspren, which means that they must follow the Radiant around. And since they are bonded, that would probably also grant the Radiant a measure of control over a wind nearby, as we have seen Kaladin do previously.

I kinda agree, I think 'absolutist' or 'hegemonic' would be better descriptors. But then again, maybe the outer cities do see themselves as almost different city states and Wax is using this word in the context of the way they feel, so it could be justified.

They would probably need to use some sort of glove fastened to their hand quite strongly, but even then I don't think it would allow them to do that. Technologically it is within scope of what they should be able to build in Era 2, if it was possible. No problem, we all have things we are better at, and things we are worse at And on top of that the physics of pulls/pushes is...wonky...at best It really helps to imagine pulls/pushes less as telekinesis, and more that the user literally pulls/pushes the blue lines they see from objects. Then through Newton 3rd law (every action has equal and opposite reaction) you can see that if you are trying to pull the plate or boots you are standing on, you are pushing down on tehm with equal force (because that is what you are bracing against) and so the total force on the plate will always be zero. The reason I am assuming the leverage is important is that there are scenes early in Mistborn 1, and also in later books where they do play role, e.g. in the first book there is that pushing training of Vin and Kelsier, where she braces against a tree and it suddenly throws Kelsier back (if I remember correctly). Of course, in the end it is fictional magic, so if Brandon decides that Ironpulls can do that, they can and no argument will overturn that.

The strength of the pull/push is like that yes, but you need leverage to make that strength do something, without that it does not help. The ironpulls/steelpushes leverage against yourself, and if you are effectively attached to the object you are trying to push nothing is gonna happen (except internal stress in the construction). If what you are proposing was possible, then any Coinshot could go in any direction they desire simply by attaching a coin to their hand, pointing in the direction they want to go, and pushing. The principle of that is same, yet we don't really see that happening despite how useful it would be.

I don't think that would be possible, when Pulling or Pushing, they always 'brace' against themselves, i.e. if you pull on something much heavier than yourself, you get pulled closer not the object. Hence flight like this would be literally like trying to lift yourself up by your bootstraps.

I would say no with a caveat , the increased efficiency of Nahel Bond is due to increased depth of the bond and Honorblade is a separate bond so I would expect the Honorblade given Surges to remain inefficient. It would be sort of as if the person was e.g. 4th Oath Windrunner and bonded lets say Cryptic becoming also 1st Oath Lightweaver, those new Surges are not as 'deep' in their spiritweb yet. That is my expectation at least. The healing however, would remain equally efficient I would expect, maybe even boosted a bit (as there are two different sources now).

This blending of two powers is called resonance, and all Radiant orders actually do have Resonance, like Twinborn. For Windrunners it is strength of squires For Lightweavers it is the memory it seems For the rest, we don't know. The Bondsmith ability to manipulate Connections is as far as we know example of Spiritual Adhesion, so it is more Spiritual expression of the surge of Adhesion, connecting not physical objects but Spiritual selves.

A good question, and one we have answer to (unless Brandon changed his mind later, as in another later WoB he RAFOed it). Basically, anything living touching the bubble is fully affected, so as long as part of body is inside the bubble the whole body is affected, and then it stops immediately once nothing touches the bubble. Relevant WoBs

Eh, we do have confirmation (unless he changed his mind) that CS are bondable and Nahel bonds are bonds between spren and physical entity And since spren = Cognitive entity in general, then CS can form Nahel bonds and grant some powers, including being summoned as Shardblade. I mean, even seon could form Shardblades, though the bond between them and their master would have to be strengthened (similarly to Radiant having to be at least 3rd oath before summoning blade)

Most likely no, as the ability to Surgebind comes from the Honorblade, not spiritweb of holder. Feruchemy works only with the person themselves, so it is the person that has to be Invested/have the power.

I don't think it works that way (for some reason). While the kind of power you get is determined just by the F-charge, the amount of Investiture you get when burning it does seem to matter, otherwise you would not get 'tenfold' the amount of stored attribute when burning the entire metalmind, which is regularly mentioned in books. So burning 1g of mostly empty (1% full) metalmind will give you 100x less of the attribute then when burning 1g of 100% full metalmind. Why that happens is a good question, as it is the same 'metal'. It could be related to Connection, as Mistborn/Mistings less connected to Harmony/Preservation get less out of metals, so in this case the charge could act as that sort-of connection. I.e. denser F-charge in metalmind results in stronger Connection to be exploited and leads to greater amount of Investiture drawn from Shard. @cometaryorbit I don't think that would happen, as the feruchemical charge is through the entire metalmind, as it diffuses (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13238). So if you would burn a small part, it should consume only proportional amount of F-charge.

I'd say there is a difference in the metal being a conduit for power in Invested art, and the metal not being unaffected by a separate power. But lacking other evidence, this is as good an explanation as any.

But at the edges the Investiture does affect the matter passing thought, e.g. by doing away with redshift/blueshift etc. So at the very least at the edges of the bubble Investiture does effect the objects passing through.

At least we are even on confusing books Your memory does serve you well, he did do that. Well then, either he somehow ran out and had the exact kind of bullets on hand, or for whatever reason aluminum bullets don't pop speed bubbles, and at the same time are affected by them, which they should not be.

Well, it took us over a century of warfare with guns and cannons and explosives to get semi-modern tactics, and even then you still had idiots who did things like cavalry charges in World War 2. And Scadrial does not yet have explosives to really fire, they have dynamite and they have regular cannons. I mean, as stated before they are further along in some ways, and quite behind in others. If anything on average Roshar at Era 2 (i.e. 10-15 years in future from RoW) would have parity. They would use different methods (magi-tech vs real world tech), but outcomes would be broadly similar. And Scadrial does not have even semi unified government. Just in northern Scadrial, Roughs are relatively independant of Elendel Basin, and (Lost Metal early chapters spoiler) Then Southern Scadrial is completely independent of North, and is formed of independent tribes. Yeah, that I can agree with. Scadrial as the regular tech + some mechanical allomancy/feruchemy enhancements vs Roshar as the magi-tech with some regular tech sprinkled in. I'd wager that it will be that while Radiants will remain far stronger, they will be rarer, especially as Medallions become more common place. So for one Surgebinder you will have 100 Mistings/Ferrings/Twinborn. Though before that happens Scadrial needs to catch up population wise. Plus Scadrial technology will suit them for greater control in Physical realm, while not giving them much options for Cognitive realm, where Roshar is stronger. So there will be that split as well. EDIT: @Nameless I did my best to check my physical copy of AoL for bullets piercing bubbles. I found only two occurences, one is Waxes's trick at the end (which is regular bullet), and the other is on pg. 284-285 were a Coinshot shoots at Wayne inside a bubble with a rifle. That bullet goes through and is slightly deflected on both ends of bubble, but does not collapse it. It is not specifically called out as aluminum bullet, but at the start of chapter Wax states that the gangmembers are shooting exclusively aluminum ones. That leaves two options The bullet was not aluminum, and the Coinshot ran out of aluminum bullets earlier (they are quite expansive). The bullet was aluminum, and the WoB is either wrong, or Brandon changed his mind after release and it will be retconned (i.e. option 1 again). If the bullet was aluminum it raises interesting question, why was the aluminum bullet affected by the Investiture at the edge of the bubble and deflected? And how can the aluminum be sped up, i.e. affected by Investiture? Considering this, I would personally go for option one, that it was regular bullet and this particular gangster ran out of aluminum bullets.

They can (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8306) and it is most likely how Fused get it in the quantities necessary. Up until now Roshar did not have much use of it, as they have similar magic resisting metal (Shardblades and Shardplates made of Godmetals) which have superior physical properties. And yes, Roshar has much more knowledge of Warfare than Scadrial, Scadrial had a single at best two wars in the last ~1000 years, those being succession war after death of Rashek (which was mostly a bunch of skirmishes than a proper war) and then war against Ruin and his Koloss, which Scadrians technically lost, and they survived only thanks to Atium hold and ascension of Sazed, neither of which were planned by them. Edit: So while Scadrial might have on-paper somewhat stronger technology (cannons, dreadnaughts) they have no clue how to actually wage war with those, since they never did. By contrast Roshar has regular wars of conquest, and survived multiple wars that literally ended with participants back in the stone age. Alethi have warfare as national pride of honor. Single Skybreaker in Plate could tear apart the entire Dreadnaught, Single Elsecaller could turn it into dust. And they are still far from fighters, what Southerners have is closer to zeppellins than airplanes. They don't yet have any theory of non-magical flight. And don't forget that while Scadrial develops to fighters, Roshar is not standing still. Sure, couple of ardents observing flamespren (Way of Kings Interlude I-8 ) notice that measuring them seems to force them to stick in that form, and until then they shift in size. Immediately they verify that it takes actual measurement, not merely an expectation (i.e. it is not human Cognitive aspect doing this), and then starts to theoretize on effects of measurement precision, if less precision would let spren continue to shift a little. This is effectively observing wave-function collapse, and theorizing the position-momentum commutation relation from it, which is roughly mid-1920s physics.

Shardblade is technically the soul of the spren in physical form, so it could count for Raysium? And true enough that the reason could be that simple, however with how gamechaning anti-Light is, and Brandon's evasiveness, I think there will be more to it. Agree to disagree. Heh, true enough did not think it through Though it would give a nice (if suicidal) tactic if you had Windrunner and another Radiant against F-steel user. I could swear that the only instance of bullets going through is Wax shooting from the inside out, and that is regular bullets. Later today I will have time to look through the book, so I will check. It should be possible (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15665), but they would not know what exactly it will do so it could backfire spectacularly. Removing them from battlefield would be safer option for them, if possible. Ah, that would make sense. I'm afraid my brain is sometimes overly literal. Indeed, that was my reasoning. While I agree that aluminum (and chromium) grenades would hard counter suppressor fabrials, the grenades are 'one-and-done' and the effect is seemingly not that long. The fabrial has advantage in that it can be run for much longer, though it depends on how much Stormlight does the user have available. And even if it would be temporarily unusable, if it was aluminum grenade it could be turned off the second the effect wears of. Still, you can turn the fabrial on as you see something flying towards you, and it is as simple as flipping a switch, so I think suppresor fabrial is superior in this regards. I presume you meant The Lost Metal here? Eh, Windrunners and Skybreakers in Shardplate are far beyond anything Scadrial has. Plus Bridge 1 is ~10-ish years out of date by the time of AoL, and they went from raising platforms to a freaking airship in year and a half, 10 years on they will have much more interesting stuff I am sure. And while Roshar is behind when it comes to mining, metallurgy, electricity and other earth sciences, they are ahead on medicine, warfare, and Realmatic theory. They are even theorizing along the lines of quantum theory already! And while manufacture and mining are far ahead on Scadrial, Roshar can obtain what they need directly via Soulcasting which is far faster and cheaper (at the moment). And can also get it via soulcasting. Or the Windrunner chucks a stone at several multiples of terminal velocity at the ship and calls it a day. Harmony said they should have it, and they don't. They do have some basic machine guns, which are not that accurate for a fight like this and could be countered by a simple attractor/repeller fabrial (unless you spend a fortune on hundreds of aluminum bullets). And regarding stronger handguns, even the strongest handgun on Scadrial, when enhanced by a Steelpush with weight of F-Iron behind it, would still typically take 2-3 shots to break one section of plate. Which is besides the point, as the thread is Allomancer vs Knight Radiant, not Roshar vs Scadrial.

Thanks for that check. In that case we can say little of the range on those things. Well, yes, but the setup was Mistborn with a gun vs Radiant with fabrial, otherwise standard equipment and I guess rough general knowledge of abilities. Aluminum vials are not standard by any stretch of meaning, and swallowing hours worth of metal is also not 'usual'. If we allow this type of preparation, Radiants would be carrying wooden shields at minimum, maybe aluminum hats to protect against emotional allomancy. (they know aluminum seems to block Investiture and connections, and they can get it via soulcasting). I always had the impression that the blade is a bit 'lesser' on the Cognitive front compared to Nightblood and even regular Shardblades, but could be only my reading. Though Azure herself calls the blade 'a pale imitation' of Shardblade, so while close to imitate some abilities it would definitely be less Invested. Maybe, maybe not. I think as long as the Raysium could bring the anti-light in contact with the Shardblade, it would hurt the spren even if it would not kill it outright. And there are specific reasons for why Raysium does not react (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15276), so it is not necessarily a general principle. I think it makes sense to err on the side of caution when talking about life of a being whose soul is literally melding with yours, so I would expect Radiants to be more careful and to have backups. Fair enough, I do think that even having 20 minutes of 5x fold speed should be enough to take down any Radiant below 3rd Oath, though some could run away. (F-steel won't help in air so Gravitation orders could go there, and Transportation orders can run away). Maaaybe Windrunners on 3rd Oath could win, as reverse lashing would be a good way to immobilize the steelrunner, but it would require good reflexes and skill. I think in AoL Wayne always drops the bubble before any bullet comes into contact with it, as even bullet passing inside would get reflected unpredictably, which would suck for the person inside. So it is possible that Wayne simply does not know that would happen. From external viewpoint Wayne typically puts it up for a second at most, so not much time to counter it, unless you know when and where it will happen. Ok, 3-5 sounds reasonable. I think at least against Willshapers and Stonewards, the recovery would not be so easy. They could use Cohesion to suck them inside the ground. Similarly Windrunners and Skybreakers could Lash them away. And all orders could try and use them themselves (if they knew basics of how it works). And on the topic of range, when charged with Chromium Wax was almost right next to the grenade (other side of the door in train), so there we can't say much on range. Marasi's use seem to have been roughly similar to her own radius so about 8-ish feet. And the WoB you linked seems to suggest that the area of effect for local powers won't be that great (" , right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. "), but it could still change. I would expect the grenades to be blocked by the suppresor as well, after all they only replicate allomancy that was put into them, so they should be blocked as well. Indeed I do, thanks. I think it would block Plate and Blade from being summoned, if not present already, and of course preventing use of Surges. I wonder if it would also inhibit Stormlight enhanced healing. Question is how long would the effect be, that would be decisive factor. And suppresor fabrials could be a hard counter to this. Sidenote: I am a bit weirded out by that WoB, as it seems that sometimes the grenade replicates and externalizes allomantic/feruchemical power, but for some it does something completely different. In principle nicrosil and duralumin grenades should be exactly the same, and similarly for aluminum and chromium ones, yet they are not, for apparently no good reason. Very much looking forward to Lost Metal, hopefully we will know a bit more afterwards.

Ah, my mistake, I thought suppressor fabrial don't need higher spren. I'd argue they are still not on level of Surge Fabrials, where spren form the full fabrial with only gemstones being separete, whereas suppresor seemed to have been the 'modern' kind. However, I was avoiding half-shards for this reason, and so I should also avoid suppresor. If Mistborn knows about suppresor, then I agree they would avoid it, however at least 6 orders could catch up with them. If Mistborn does not know precise size of the effect, they could get caught off guard. Range could be boosted by size, as is typical for fabrials. Additionally, the one Navani uses in WoR chapter 82 to attract moisture from air has sufficient range to cover all the archers (unless there are multiple and I overlooked it). As long as the range is at least 50 feet, it can take steel vials away from Mistborn. And you are correct on only attracting given substance. In that case taking away steel vials is the best option, closely followed by pewter to take away the edge. Considering this limitation, I would give 3rd Oath Radiants probably around 7/10, for the Orders without mobility even taking away steel will do a lot, and for the rest of Orders taking away pewter will shift balance of power considerably. Yeah, 'lot of breaths' is not exactly a precise measurement, not to mention we don't have standard unit of Investiture, so who knows how much Stormligth ~ breath? Vasher could probably tell us, but he is secretive one. Well, thousands breaths on their own are not enough to create Shardblade, something else was involved in creation of Nightblood (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10871). And Azure's blade seems to be somewhat less sentient, but we have seen very little of it. So I think Type 4 BioChromatic entities are typically considerably less Invested then spren, outside of Nightblood who is somehow special and keeps getting more and more Invested over time. On soothing/rioting spren we have only RAFO (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1722), but I would agree that due their nature as essentially living Investiture it would be tough. BTW, while looking for WoBs on Nightblood, I found this one (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15334), so Shardblades could still be somewhat damaged by anti-Light daggers. Thanks for the quote and quantification. I'd point out that Rosharan measurement are actually longer then our (and Scadrial equivalent), https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479/#e15384 . Not by much (if the example in WoB can be generalized, it is around 10%), but it would suggest that they are actually a bit faster then just sprinting if only a little. Also, while the world record on two-mile run is on flat ground, with specialized track and shoes, Bridge 4 did it on uneven ground, with elevation changes and without any real equipment. Fair enough. I'd say 10x the speed for an hour could still be quite a lot of stores, even for compounder. The more you push past the human body, the more Investiture you will need (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153-hal-con-2012/#e2803 ). I ran the numbers back in the previous thread, and if the loss gets progressively stronger, than to get 1 hour at 10x speed you would require something like ~1 million hours of stored full speed (or 2 million hours of storing 50% of speed). For compounder that is 'just' 6 cycles, however we don't know how fast those metals are burning, and you would need to burn a lot more than just flakes, and even those can last minutes. Conceivably it could still take days to build that up. I don't think you can 'pressurize' it like that, but who knows. I have my own theory for why BoM behaves the way it does (shameless plug) I was not saying it is stronger than a shotgun, just stronger than most similar guns of the time. Even with consistently damaging the plate, it could still take hour for Radiant to run out of Stormlight, see Jasnah in RoW, where she was fighting quite long. Even if it only took half an hour, they need to consistently hit the Radiant and avoid nearly every single Radiants attacks (because Mistborn cannot take more than one good hit from 4th Oath Radiant), so I think Mistborn would die a lot sooner especially against Orders with mobility options. Interesting set up. I would say that the best bet for Mistborn are chromium grenades, that would sap Radiant effectively. The speedbubbles would be only good as defensive option, as you could not shoot inside them, and aluminum bullets would pop them (and might still be a bit deflected), so you would get at best 1 free shot per 1 grenade. Though that could be enough. Minor question, how many of these would Mistborn carry? Big question is how large is the area affected by the allomancy grenade, and what is the terrain. If the terrain is relatively open, at least some of the time you could dodge it most likely. For area of effect, I would say radius of 5-7-ish feet could be feasible, after all in AoL robbers freely use them in the train seemingly without worrying about themselves. Best defense of Radiant would be suppresor if allowed, as it could completely cancel the grenades. The other option would be repeller fabrial, but that would require either knowing the composition of the grenade, or they have to be able to effect harmonium (which I doubt). If it worked, it would make them miss at least some of the time, depending on the radius of the grenade and on area of effect of the fabrial. I'd say that Mistborn with these grenades could win ~7-8/10 against 3rd Oath, with Gravitation and Transportation orders being able to dodge effectively enough, even without fabrials. Suppressor (if allowed) would turn it back into 7/10 for Radiant, and the repeller (if working) could tip the scales closer towards parity I think, 5-6/10 for Mistborn. Considering the Plate could be made air-tight (there are no gaps between the sections, and face-slit can be closed) there would be no barotrauma for the Radiant in Plate. And even if there was, Stormlight would heal that quickly enough, considering healing severed spine takes seconds.

So finishing up the comparison of Mistborn + gun (no Atium) vs Radiant with fabrial (only one at a time, no surge fabrials), so lets call it Era 2 Loadout. No sneak attacks (those don't really judge who is 'stronger', Elsecaller could kill surprised Fullborn but Fullborn is definitely stronger), no insanely long prep time (i.e. months). If Radiant can get their hands on suppersor that works on Mistborn, Radiant wins majority of time. Mistborn has no defense there (maybe a coppercloud? but those can be pierced, and duralumin cage could be used to boost the fabrial, if the analogous functions of metals hold up). In this situation Mistborn can only hope to kill Radiant from a distance, and even against lower orders that could get difficult, as they either have mobility options (Gravitation, Teleportation, Abrasion) or improved healing/defense (Progression, Cohesion, Tension). If the Radiant order has long distance attack option (Gravitation, Soulcasting + elsecalling, Division?) they will most likely win this. If not, they need to have mobility option to reach Mistborn. In other situations Mistborn cannot kill the Radiant, but the Radiant cannot reach Mistborn, so a draw. Radiant has attractor fabrial, which they could use to steal vials of metal from Mistborn (not gun, assuming it is aluminum and bullets are also aluminum). Here the outcome would depend on how much metal Mistborn already has inside of them. Against 4th Oath and above Mistborn loses, as they lack the offensive option (without vials they can do only one duralumin push) to get quickly through Plate, and they will run out sooner then the Radiant (higher Oath = better efficiency, and plate captures some of the run off from skin). Against 3rd Oath, orders with better mobility win (so 6/10), the rest has to survive long enough for Mistborn to run out of Steel so they can get close enough for the kill. I think Stonewards would have good shot at that with their defensive options, Lightweavers+Truthwatchers could hide/confuse Mistborn with enough Illusion (sure, they can detect them with bronze, but they still see them), and Bondsmith could survive if they could open Perpendicularity/renew their light. I'd give it to Radiant 7-8/10. Approaching for close combat would be very risky to Mistborn due to Shardblade. Against 2nd Oath, I think Mistborn would still win more often than not, but Gravitation orders could get in a win, and so could Elsecallers, if fast enough. More proficient Stonewards maybe too. 2-3/10 Radiant has painrials. 4th oath and above. Lucky Mistborn could win against Orders with worse mobility (repeated duralumin pushes) as they could last long enough to maybe crack a plate. 9.5/10 Painrial really does not make much difference here. 3rd Oath. Painrial could be used to counter Mistborn attempting leeching, but there is a chance that Painrial would get leeched too. As long as Painrial can be applied to Mistborn, it will incapacitate them, but they would have to get around Shardblade first. Safer option against non-mobility orders is to maintain distance and use duralumin pushes and guns. I'd give it to Radiant 6-7/10. 2nd Oath, I could see maybe a very skilled Windrunner winning, but they would have to be really skilled. Use reverse lashing to make everything but aluminum bullets a miss, hope that Mistborn will not get a good hit in with a gun, and then use reverse lashing to limit mobility of Mistborn to go in for the kill. But that is very specific, so 0.1/10 for Radiant. For 3rd Oath and below there is a question of how effective would Soothing and Rioting be, considering Radiant is already quite invested when having Stormlight in the system. Lifeless are more effected (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395/#e13062), those with a lot of Breath are less effected (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10895). So possibly this helps Radiant of 3rd Oath and below to be less thrown of balance. I'd also remind people that emotional allomancy is not mind control, so making someone in a fight completely passive so you can just go up to them and stab them is not gonna happen (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e9038). Push them strongly in the opposite of what would be natural, and you will get backlash (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/189/#e9004). However, duraluming enhanced emotion blasts would be disorienting, so they would help. Pewter mainly changes the strength, which it roughly doubles (but considering example of Vin, there is some level of boost independent of the strength of user). For the rest, it gives a sense of balance and it improves your speed somewhat + mildly better healing and durability. So yeah, they will be a bit better on agility and on speed, but how far outside of human limit is it? Allomancers only compare against regular people, not perfected people who are at the limit of their abilities. I do think pewter will give slight edge in this, just that the edge in non-strength abilities is slight enough to be neglected most of the time. For what it is worth, Coppermind says this on Stormligth " Stormlight also greatly increases the physical capabilities of the Surgebinder, who gains superhuman strength, speed, endurance, stamina, and healing of both body and soul. ", but it does not source this, and I have only physical books which are not easily searchable. If someone could look through books, or knows why coppermind says this I would be grateful Except being Invested should make Radiant at least somewhat more difficult to soothe, and soothing nor rioting are not mind control. If they are in a fight, Mistborn would not be able to do that. Ah, I misunderstood you then. I think it would be more difficult to learn then using their own Surges, but not extremely so. Using duralumin while compounding is extremely risky and difficult to control, as I mentioned before (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901), so not sure they could pull it off. Wax describes BoM as the fullest metalmind he has ever seen, hence they are fuller then Miles'. I don't think so. That WoB on 2-3 bullets is only Wax (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/385/#e12595) under regular circumstances, however that is Vindication, which is stronger then most Era 2 guns, it is Wax who can further boost the shot with A-Steel and he can tap F-Iron to put more leverage behind that push. I also think explosives would be far worse against Shardplate, plate seems to be weakest against high pressure concentrated attack (i.e. Bladed weapons, bullets) but grenades would not generate enough concentrated pressure to break a section. Typical modern day handgun generates around ~300 MPa of pressure, but hand grenade generates only ~268 kPa, making grenades ~1000 times weaker on this front. Based on that I think even modern grenades would not do much to Shardplate.

Spren needs not be nearby, as summoning is nearly instantaneous. But I agree that reason 2 is weaker of the two. Stormlight improves dexterity, perfects is the word used I think, and the feats done by Radiants go beyond human level. On Pewter improving dexterity we also don't have any quantifiers, so we can argue back and forth how much it improves it all day, but I would point out that Pewter-arms are called 'Thugs', not 'Dancers', which shows what is the main benefit, and what is minor side effect. Pursuer could teleport + millennia of practice, don't tell me you expect Mistborn to be that fast and that skilled? That is seriously stretching what Mistborn are capable of. It is not silly, you use the argument 'is uses investiture' to discount entire basis of Rosharan technology. Right now I don't have enough time to go into detail, but in ~12 ish hours I will post on Radiant + fabrials (non-surge) vs MIstborn with metals + guns (no atium), i.e. Era 2 standard. And Radiant could built suppersor fabrial and simply, turn off Allomancy and Feruchemy in given radius. Or entire suppresor minefield. And so take most Mistborn to start pulling of the tricks you mention, months even. Indeed, and we have no clue how long it took to create Bands of Mourning, could have been a week, could have been years. And maybe it works along different principles entirely. The one compounder we have seen (Miles) did not have that filled metalminds, so why should this hypothetical Mistborn/Fullborn? (I will look for WoB on soulcasting Shardblades, because there was one). And you can attack them indirectly, soulcast the ground beneath them into air, and then into stone. That should buy you a second or two even against pseudo-Fullborn.

I see we have moved goalposts to allow Medallions, as Mistborn could not keep up with 4th Oath and above with only Allomancy. Yeah, but why risk it? Anti-ligth does look/feel wrong, so after some time (like those 10-ish year till Era 2), Spren could most likely tell if it is being used, and take appropriate actions, e.g. use other weaponry in the meantime. The idea is that backup weapon is there to use when Shardblade is somehow inaccessible, i.e. when leeched/larkined. To use against someone who could potentially kill the spren with anti-light. Both are obvious reasons to have a backup weapon, and both are now familiar scenarios to Radiants, hence usage of backup weapons can be considered normal. I solely reacted to your comment, of course you could use non-metal armor treated in the same way to get something of similar properties that is non-metallic, e.g. use Cohesion to reshape carapace of chasmfiend (which is quite strong on its own, only Grandbows can get through and those require Shardbearers to even pull) and then Tension to strengthen it further. So yeah, we can get Radiants armor that can withstand coins with certainty (as those can be stopped by regular human with wooden shield), and possibly even guns (though it would hurt like hell), and we don't require fabrials for that. Sure, but Radiant has reflexes that are in the same league as Mistborn, Mistborn mainly has strength advantage on them. If Radiant can keep one hand free to attack, Mistborn is toast, if Radiant can get in the killing strike before Mistborn reaches them, Mistborn is toast, if Radiant is on 3rd Oath and strikes Mistborn before they make contact, Mistborn is toast. And this does not even consider Surges. Mistborn does not have room for mistakes in this scenario, Radiant has. Yolish ligthweaving is currently not functioning properly, and was not since Shattering, so there is a good chance it was tied to Adonalsium directly. Yes, because humans require additional tools to be performing the same task, but that was not the point. The point was that removal of stormlight can be performed by something that is (seemingly at this point) of intelligence similar to crow or octopus, but not of human level. Good question, EDIT: (posted before finishing this part). So, apparently at least some of the spren formed from Investiture that Adonalsium left there, but they atteined sentience on their own. So it seems that Adonalsium cast off some of its power, and some spren formed from that on their own. So, those spren are natural in certain sense? They were not actively created. This does not preclude existence of some that were actively formed, but we have no mention of such. Additionally, most lower spren existed prior to Shattering and spren-formation is cosmere-wide fundamental rule (i.e. a natural rule) Actually no, you are misapplying the argument. First, Nahel spren were formed by Shards, so they are not/were not naturally occurring and were made. Second, Nahel bond itself is more of a general principle, as you can bond seon or other Cognitive entities, so yes that part is just naturally occurring, but the Surgebinding is due to presence of Shards and were even first done directly by Shard (Honorblades) and only later did Spren start mimicking that (and we still don't know what happened afterwards, or how this process started). So yeah, Nahel bond is not a magic system, but Rosharan Surgebinding which is usually accessed through Nahel Bond is a magic system. Their issue would come with the fact that using Hemalurgy she can easily gain Invested powers, they would not be happy with that. Forgery cannot be done just be anyone, so there is something different about Spiritwebs of people who can, and that difference allows them to manipulate Dor, including infusing themselves with it (see Soul Stamps), or give themselves different abilities. So I would say they would not like to see it in a similar way. Good point on soulcasters not being mentioned, either they forgot (doubtful) or using Soulcaster does not allow for Dawnshard to be used with it (as it is a mechanical mean of accessing Invested power). It is odd though, as Soulcasters (the people) have their spiritwebs warped by its usage leading to savantism, suggesting that Investiture does go through their soul. I understand your argument, I am saying that the argument is flawed. Fabrials are not the same thing as Medallions, fabrials are gun equivalent of Roshar. Medallion equivalent are Honorblades and maybe Surge Fabrials. You are the person that started bringing other tech into it (guns), and when I (and others) suggested that means Roshar can at least use basic fabrials (since all their tech will be based on that) you react by bringing up Medallions, which are step above what fabrials do, in that they allow user to access other Invested art which fabrials don't. No they literally do not. Fabrials (regular, not Surge) mimic invested abilities, the glove Kaladin had did not grant him usage of Gravitation, it was just clever application of Conjoiner. Does Rysn get access to 'extra Invested abilities' because of her chair? Because it works off the exact same principles as Kaladin's glove. By your logic guns are also off the table, as they give limited ability to Steelpush to anyone who uses them (and are even more powerful, because they allow pushing of Aluminum!). And lightbulbs grant people basic lightweaving! Also off the table. Adrenalin shots can grant Pewter-like power, also off the table! Local anestezia are painrials in tablet form, also off the table! Technology is not magic, even when it uses different the real-world physics. The only difference between Scadrial technology and Rosharan fabrial based technology is fuel (e.g. gunpowder/electricity vs stormlight/lifelight/voidlight), and some operating principles (where Roshar can leverage also Cognitive and Spiritual realm physics to get what they want, but Scadrial is limited to Physical realm physics). To put it plainly, someone with a bunch of fabrials mimicking some application of some Surges is no more a Surgebinder, than a person with a gun and shot of adrenaline is Steelpusher and Pewter-arm. Kaladin had no clue what was happening, no teacher and had to practice in secret first few months. Even then he got to 3th Oath in year and a half, and his squires progressed faster and learned faster, since they had someone tell them what is going on. Compare with Vin, who had teachers for every metal, and unknowinlgy practiced her entire life, and also needed a few months to train. So I think Mistborn and Radinats are about on par in how long it takes to be proficient. Duralumin and compounding is bad idea, it is very difficult to control, so I don't think they could use it to compound faster https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901 Only a Feruchemist, which is pretty much equally different. Different Invested Art + different mode of Initiation. Some Surges definitely, but possibly not all. Shallan used Surgebinding in Kholinar, and no alerter noticed (and those are made to detect Surgebinders), so bronze would be better against some orders than others. You can only use one Medallion at the time, and typicaly Medallion can grant two powers at most, so they will still not turn Mistborn to Fullborn. And even then, as long as Elsecaller is in Cognitive, they can soulcast Medallions away, as even ordinary soulcaster can do that