therunner

It is not that they burn faster with less attribute stored, it is that only portion of the metal will work as charged metal. And once you burn that out, the rest is just regular metal. I don't think compounder is limited to 10x-20x enhancement at a time, just that burning of the metalmind will not get you more than that. Otherwise it does not make sense for Miles not to burn his metalminds all the time, which we know he does not do. We know that burning metalmind provides you with 10x the attribute, that is given. We know that metalmind with small amount of charge will acts as F-charged metal only for a shortwhile before the charge runs out (i.e. metalmind that is not full will not get burned completly away, at some point it will turn just into regular piece of metal). We also know that Compounders don't burn their metalminds for their feats (see what Miles does). From that we can draw two conclusions When burning F-charged metal, the Feruchemical charge gets consumed not proportionally to the amount of metal charged. Burning metalminds does not provide the levels of attribute tapping can. From this I would conclude that you burn some amount A of metal and some amount B of attribute (which is what re-codes the metal to that attribute). The ratio of A/B changes depending on how charged the metalmind is, however the amount of Investiture released per second of burn is the same (or nearly so). It is the same as allomancy, only burn rate can change (as the metal is different). And as I state multiple times, the burn speed would not change, only that after sometime the charged portion of metal will run out and it would be just regular metal. But Miles does not burn his metalminds for healing, he just taps them. And frankly the healing is not beyond anything seen in Cosmere. Clearly not true, Miles spends his downtime replenishing his stores, and has to keep stealing gold to feed his habit so to speak. So he clearly has to take some care to not run out. I never said anything along those lines, only that burning of metalminds does not provide high multiples of attribute. Tapping is what does that. Compounding is non-trivial, e.g. Inquisitors did not learn it in years. So I think multi-tasking Compounding is difficult to do, but not necessarily impossible. Possible, I might have mis-remembered that. We don't actually know that. Yeah, but if you keep only small portion of speed you must then start over compounding speed. So, you compounded one thing faster thanks to speed, but now you must compound speed. No help. No such WoB as far as I know. The one you are talking about is for tapping/storing and it does not say anything about attribute not getting expressed, not for burning metalminds for Compounding. Mistborn gets beaten by Windrunner on 3rd Oath, would get crushed by Windrunner on 4th and stands no chance against Windrunner on 5th. So yeah, Fullborn needs to use Feruchemy to stand a chance. No they were not, they were described as oversized spear head, and regular spearhead is ~35 cm long. So BoM were quite large for metalmind. What do you mean? This makes no sense to me. D-burning is dangerous, as is D-tapping (if that is even a thing?). So would not rely on that. Fullborn can kill themselves if they tap too much at once (e.g. by burning themselves alive, or crushing themselves), so duralumin is risky. And where would he get that without access to atium? No one has atium outside of Marsh, and he ain't sharing. I'd like to, but TLM spoilers are not allowed outside of the appropriate forum sections (even in spoiler boxes). Mistborn with C-gold cannot run away, they are slower than Windrunner and with worse maneuverability. Windrunner runs them down, immobilizes them with Reverse Lashing, and then just keeps cutting for a while. Or just cuts their head off with shardblade and continues to cut, after that no more Investiture is required. Possibly, but I am not buying it honestly. We have seen very little of F-duralumin can do, and it was nowhere near this impressive. Fair interpretation. Compounded tinmind I could agree with, however not practice. No amount of skill will let you detect something you simply cannot, in this case highly invested objects. Steelsight most likely works by forming weak connections to things, and Investiture resists Investiture, so it would be question of power not skill. What do you mean by this? I agree on them being pulled out of thin air, however they are the best we got. More importantly they show his intent on compressing attribute getting harder and harder the more you try. So eventually you will reach point where even compounding cannot keep up, but it will be ridiculously high most likely. Pewter does not do more than F-pewter, its primary effect is doubling of strength with a bunch of minor improvements tacked on. F-pewter ~10x the strength when burned. Also while it creates matter, the matter is stored whan storing (Sazed deflates when storing Pewter). Plus we don't know the conversion rate between Investiture and matter. There is WoB that she actually did not tap everything due to some Intent stuff (bascially). Yep, I see it like that as well. I only think that F-pewter is more investiture intesive (more of the attribute, and A-pewter other effects are very minor) Ah, Victory! Thanks though, it was interesting discussion on this topic. And thanks again.

For spiritual, you cannot 'send' stuff there, it is not a place like that, there is no time or space there. For cognitive, you would have to somehow have the metalmind trail you there, and remain in contact with your representation? And I doubt that would work even then. So basically, you cannot do that, it is not how either cognitive or spiritual realms function. That would be a smart way to do it.

It provides 10x the Investiture you stored originally, assuming you burn through the entire metalmind. You get 10x the amount of attribute in total, so if you stored e.g. one month of health, burned the full metalmind and stored all of it, you would be left with 10 months of health. But the you don't get all of it at once, the speed at which metalmind burns controls how much of it you get out, and is the same no matter how invested the metalmind is. More invested metalminds can simply be burned longer before running out. I am not saying the net gain is the same, I am saying that the rate of gain is the same. I.e. burn partially fueled metalmind, you get N amount of attribute per second, burn completely fueled metalmind you also get N amount of attribute per second. However, the you can burn the partially fueled metalmind for a shorter time, before running out of the charged portion of the metal, so the net gain is lower due to that. The ludicrous feats are still possible, but for them you need to tap (and deal with loss of attribute due to compression) burning won't get you that far. Edit: @alder24 response Hmm, good point. Oh definitely. However it requires less healing in total (not accounting for compression) then if the bone got fully broken and ruptured skin. So more loss from compression, but less needed healing then if Miles let the bones break fully. My point is that nearly infinite health is clear hyperbole, just from physical constraints. And I think what he shows is consistent with someone who has hundreds of years worth of healing available, when compared to what Wayne can do with weeks and months stored. Ah alright. On how much investiture fits into metalminds, that is just a guess to start off, I admit that. I think the burn rate is probably far quicker then I estimated, since the more the work allomancy does, the quicker metals burn. WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/291/#e7820) So e.g. F-Pewter should burn around 5x as fast as regular Pewter, if it would be providing 10x increase in strength. So the time needed can be possibly reduced by a factor of ~5-10 on average? So Fullborn could get to those 813 years worth of storage for each metal not in ~3 years of non stop compounding, but in 4 months of non-stop compounding. So with breaks to live and to rest and stuff, I think it could be done in a year, or a bit quicker. Would this be more in line with your expectations? A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one Can you give me chapter or page? So he was in bubble while waiting for Wax to come close to him? That would mean he could compress less by a factor of 10-15x, which is useful. I need to go through the books for incident where Wayne heals and stores

Ah, thanks. Much more then weeks, at the time they did not have trains, nor powered flight nor powered ships. Based on the sizes the trip to Malwish would be months one way. It is possible, but feels a stretch to me. Fair, but still, why not at least share how to store allomancy? That one would not lead to overly powerful effects, nor would be too dangerous. Thanks for the WoB on F-duralumin, I could not recall it. And no, medallions do have Identity, which is what allows tapping/storing when asleep And Honorblades also have Identity, and are self-aware

Or the running out is also possibility if they store Mists, which would get used up. But good counterpoint. I don't think Allik states anything like that, only that Sovereign ruled them for a time. And why would Kelsier not share some of his findings with them? Even just how to store allomancy for example? And if he created them there, then Spook could not have been involved in their creation, since he ruled over the Basin for nearly ~80 years. I think the Medallions work like 'artifical' spren to extent, the Medallion has some Identity (which is what allows users to keep storing/tapping even when sleeping). So the Nicrosil portion sort of gives power to that fake soul, which then connects to the spiritweb of the user. Edit: Though I see there is WoB that Sovereign was involved in BoM creation, though there is also one that RAFOs whether Kelsier created them. Tension.

Possibly because he bonded the Blade, the increased Connection allowed him to gain some understanding of what the screaming 'meant'. Adolin shows that Bonding deadblade does grant measure of mutual Connection and possibility of understanding.

You would not get insane quantities of Investiture as that is not how burning metalminds works. It would be like burning nicrosilmind only for a short time, before the charge would run out, see WoB You only get 10x the amount of Investiture that you stored after you burn through it, that is it.

But Zinc does not grant Improved reaction time. Though Electrum is a good counter. Fair, makes sense. But why does compression of attribute cause loss? My interpretation being that it is the increased difference between physical vs spiritual self, and some Investiture then goes towards fighting that strain. Which is in line with the description of F-Atium and TLR. Exactly, it is immeasurable, so I don't think it can be used as good counterexample against the calculations I made earlier. With health there is simply too much unknowns and too much freedom. But as you yourself said and quoted, he is healing the bones as they are breaking, so at that point there is no displacement of bone, bone marrow spilling out, ruptured blood vessels. Just the fractures within bones themselves, which are just lines and surfaces. As you yourself said the health is not exactly measurable and concentration of health just to wounds can increase perceived efficiency. So I don't think Miles is good counterexample to the math (and he is Savant to boot, being more efficient from that alone as @Trusk'our pointed out) There is a ceiling on investiture Fullborn can have on person, that is indisputable. The math suggests (if we trust it) that it is somewhere in the realm ~10 000 months of non-stop storing for each metal, which is 813 years worth of non-stop storing. Miles can conceivably have that much, and it would be more then enough for everything he does (especially combined with his savantism), considering Wayne heals 3 bullets wounds with 2 weeks worth of health (and those two weeks were not non-stop storing to boot). Alright fair enough I lean towards the first option (or combination of the two) myself, since i see the compression loss principle in Feruchemy not as elementary, but as a result of tension between physical and spiritual selves. Ah...I have not considered that as an option Apologies then. Good argument, I concede he point. That is what I dispute though, I don't think there is a time where the investiture is kinetic and in the Compounder, but not yet attribute. Edit: Reply to @Tamriel Wolfsbaine For the first 3 books Wayne has only very limited amount of bendalloy, and he needs it to be useful in fights. So I don't think he would use it that way, he could but I don't think he does. Open option though. I don't think that is how it works though. When you burn metalmind, you get the same amount of attribute, no matter how much Investiture is stored within the metalmind. That is basic principle of allomancy. So Wax could not have been at Mach 4, I think at most he could have been at ~100 m/s (like Bleeder) had he burned the BoM. The difference is, that if there is only a little of attribute stored, then afterawhile the charged portion will run out, and you will be left with regular metal. There is WoB on this (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e860) Edit: Sidenote, it is most likely impossible for Mistborn/Fullborn to burn Shardblades (identity problem), since they could not burn Nightblood. Which makes sense, since Shardblade is literally body of a spren, so coded to their Identity. Plate could be similarly restricted, since we know that deadplate (and plate of different Radiant) would block Surgebinding, whereas your own plate does not due to Identity.

Well, we know that Ishar did something to wild Surgebinders that started popping up, and reformed them into Ishar's Knights, as other Heralds called them. So, to make them more useful (since they did not have unlimited Stormlight to survive like Heralds) he possibly used Bondsmithing to add-on couple of things, like Plate. Core of Knights Radiants is Nahel bond so I think Ishar could have easily changed it.

If he would have copy, why not use it in TLM? He was releasing purified Dor which was treated as a big threshold. With Bands he could have possibly traveled over water as well (store nearly all weight, and drop coins to push off) to get back soon. But why would he then hide them away in some temple? Kel seems to be gathering powers/artifacts not hiding them away. That is another thing, I don't think they can allow Compounding. Hemalurgy can no longer grant it, nor can Medallions then (much less Invasive, but also then less deep method of getting powers), and so I don't see a way for Bands to let that happen. It seems that only natural born Compounders are possibility by Era 2. That is why I posited they are something along the lines of Honorblade, only made by Harmony. And they are filled up with Mists to provide power source, since Harmony cannot act as freely as Honor could (who fueled Heralds directly). I don't think it would convert Dor to Preservation's Investiture (I don't think that is possible at all, only corrupting Investiture), but I do think Dor could fuel someone wielding Bands. Well Bands work similar to Medallions too, and give power to anyone. The only difference would be that instead of Harmony powering the user directly (like in Honorblades), he would have pre-charged them with Mists (since Harmony is restricted much more than other Shards). All good points and fair. True. However it then opens a question of why Malwish medallions are so limited compared to Bands? I.e. seemingly cannot grant allomancy, cannot fit more then 3 powers, cannot compound, etc. Good point.

That is basically what I was trying to say, but put much more eloquently.

Problem is that the loss has to be increasing the more you compress, otherwise TLR would be able to use F-Atium to be immortal indefinately, however that is not the case per WoBs. Eventually he would be unable to get enough attribute to stay alive, because the loss would be too much. The WoB in question (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188/#e3923) and the relevant paragraph So the loss is increasing the more 'unnatural' the result of tapping.

I can agree with harder than normal, but considering Windrunners lash Fused who are quite Invested, I think they would be used to overcoming difficulty. Speculative though. Alright, fair point. Lashing someone does not take too long, i.e. it is just about instantaneous, you touch them, and they go flying. So I don't think Fullborn would have quick enough reactions (if we are considering the one without F-steel). If we take that literally, then eyeblink is typically in range of 0.1-0.4 seconds, so lets's split the middle and say 0.25. So Miles heals the gunshot wounds not in miliseconds, but in quarter of a second. Still about 240x times as fast as Wayne, but not thousands of times faster. So they can, but not consistently, as I have said. On the quotes, the reason Wayne would be at risking from getting hit in the head while Miles would not be, is that Wayne is not tapping all the time, whereas Miles is. So Wayne rendered unconscious would not be able to heal, but Miles would, since the healing process would be already ongoing. Though Wayne could probably learn to tap when unconscious, just like you can burn pewter in coma. This exactly shows how health behaves oddly, healing one gunshot wound takes weeks with modern medical care. And here Wayne uses up two weeks of healing to heal three gunshot wounds and in minutes? How does that make sense in the framework of Feruchemy? He would have to tap at far increased rate (on the order of 100 000x increase) and so should see horrible losses. Not to mention the original two week amount should not be enough even when tapped without loss over weeks. And thank you for the quotes. I acknowledge that the compression is great, my point is that ordinary Bloodmaker already compresses health at huge rates. So if Bloodmaker can easily compress attribute 100 000x times without any apparent loss, Gold Compounder compressing attribute even more does not seem as impressive. Why does the loss have to happen? If the loss is due to difference between the physical self and the spiritual self, then healing would not lead to such difference no? And focusing on small location would not be enough to make up the difference I think, healing gunshot wound would still be only about ~4000x times smaller volume to heal (and that is only if we consider only the pass-through wound, not all the mess shock wave does to organs), which still means Wayne would have to compress the attribute at least ~20x, and he does not even have enough healing for one gunshot wound (two weeks of stored health, and you cannot store 100% of attribute at a time). Not to mention when tapping health the whole of body feels better (Miles example) and they don't seem to pick and choose what to heal (at least I am not aware of that). How does Miles prove that? We don't know how much compounded stores he has, nor how the loss behaves exactly, and there are reasons for why Gold would be outlier. Or if the healing can be focused, so fullbody health can be focused into just the wound, then healing e.g. broken legs is ultra-efficient, since the wound itself is 'small' (just a lines and surfaces). On the other hand we see that larger than usual metalmind (bands of mourning) nearly runs out of speed just after few seconds of sonic effect, which would be about in line with the calculations on the loss. At the very least, the compression, loss and time relations have to be order of magnitude correct, because otherwise even ordinary F-steel ferrings could reach sonic speeds (or nearly sonic speeds) in short bursts, and we just don't see that happen. So to summarize: Either F-gold does not have loss from compressing (so Miles' feats are less impressive), or F-gold can focus 'full-body' health to just the wounds directly for highly increased efficiency without need to compress (and so again Miles' feats are less impressive). Do you agree with this, or do you see some option I have not considered? What is this supposed to prove? I did say that Miles does not burn his goldminds, quote So why are you quoting something that says the same thing? Fair, though I will point out that the reason Miles probably does not faint is that he no longer feels pain from the wound thanks to years of getting hurt, whereas Shallan does. Not sure if every Gold compounder would get to that point. Zinc does not improve reaction time, you just 'think' faster and can conceptualize and stuff. So I don't think it would help with timing. Not to mention there does not seem to be any time window where the attribute is out, but is not yet 'attribute'. There has to be some, because that is how Ruin intercepts and modifies Coppermind memories (he cannot go to metalmind, and cannot modify minds, so it has to be 'in-transit'), however if it is in transit it is not in Fullborn, and so A-Duralumin would not do anything.

Hmm, targeting healing is something I have not considered. Do we see if F-Gold ferring can choose which wounds to heal and which not? Because if they can than this helps with the tension. My point is exactly that in every other quality what you put in is what you get out, i.e. spend one week half as strong, you can spend one week 1.5 as strong. With health this should mean that you spend one week 0.5 as healthy, then you can spend one week 1.5 as healthy which would mean healing faster. Not sure why it would mean even greater increase in healing ability. However, the inefficiency is realtively strong from the one WoB, so drawing 10 days worth of healing in 10 seconds should not result in only ~80 000-fold modifier but instead only in something like 1000 at most, which yes is still a lot, however far less then apparently needed.

So, Gold healing does not make sense to me. Basically, one thing we know about Feruchemy is that tapping a lot of attribute at once leads to losses, which means regular Ferrings could easily waste all their resources in very inefficient manner. However, Wayne can heal gunshot wounds in minutes, despite only having few weeks worth of health in his metalminds. However, gunshots typically take few weeks to heal with modern medical care, and more on their own. So if there is loss in Feruchemy, how come Wayne can seemingly tap nearly all his health at once without worry and heal all that damage ~360 000x as fast as naturally? Based on the loss he should run out after like a milisecond, and not heal nearly anything. The only explanation I can think off is that the usual loss in tapping large amounts does not happen for F-Gold, because the origin of the loss is that Feruchemy 'fights' against spiritweb to maintain the changes. However, since F-Gold heals by restoring physical body according to spiritual ideal, this 'fight' does not happen there. This would allow Wayne to heal gunshot wound in minutes with only few weeks of stored health, because the loss would not be there so he could tap nearly all of it at once. Thoughts?

I know it is Connection, I just did not overlooked capitalization at that point. My point, is that as said Reverse Lashing can effect objects that are on ground, it is just more difficult (and the spoiler block also points out that objects airborne have it weaker). Question is how weaker is the Connection while in air, and how exactly F-Duralumin works (i.e. the blank Connection he see would probably not help here). I think it would possibly make it more difficult or impossible when standing on ground to be lashed, but while in air I don't think it would help as much as you state. Additional question is, would Fullborn even know this particular detail of Windrunners power? Not Chromium that is external, Lashing infuses the person, so Fullborn would have to burn Aluminum. Still doable for them though, but it would remove their powers for a moment (or a while, depending on how quickly Aluminum purges). Where are you getting nanometers, for all we know the bullets flew through, and the entry would closed as the bullet left the body. That would also be consistent with the description in the books, and it would be healing ~miliseconds after the wound was caused. Can't or won't because it wastes so much power? That is my point, does he do things Ferring with a decade of storage could do once or twice, or is he completely out of their league? And some things he does are still in the realm of Ferring. I am sorry but how can you say healing broken legs as they are being broken is comparable to achieving Mach 1 when we don't even know anything about how much stored healing is required to heal what? We literally don't know, gold healing seems quite arbitrary to me at this point. Edit: I mean gunshot wounds take few weeks to heal, yet Wayne heals them in minutes with few weeks of health stored, which on the face of it does not make sense (he would have to tap at such an increase factor that he should not have enough stores to do that). So clearly health behaves somewhat oddly when it comes to this. That is why avoided talking about health, because frankly it does not make sense to me based on what we know of Feruchemy. Wayne should not be able to do what he does, based on our understanding. The only explanation I can think off is that the usual loss in tapping large amounts does not happen for F-Gold, because the origin of the loss is that Feruchemy 'fights' against spiritweb to maintain the changes. However, since F-Gold heals by restoring physical body according to spiritual ideal, this 'fight' does not happen there. This would allow Wayne to heal gunshot wound in minutes with only few weeks of stored health, because the loss would not be there so he could tap nearly all of it at once. This would then mean that Miles' feats are not as astonishing, because unlike the other Ferrings, F-Gold ferrings don't fight the spiritweb when tapping a lot at once, so there would not be a loss. (And which calculations do you mean? There are two sets, and the one with loss is as firm as can be using the old WoB and limited information we have) And we literally see Wayne heal from being splattered in short minutes, far more grievous wound (and using non-compounded goldmind). Sure he is slower, but he can heal about the same wounds, even if slower. Not to mention that Miles is possibly savant in F-Gold, further influencing his healing. My whole point on Miles is two-fold He clearly does not burn metalminds 'on-the-go', so the estimates from Tamriel have to be way off (either because the power released is far less, or because metalminds burn too fast for it to be practical, or most likely both). Miles healing is de-facto not too far from what 2nd Oath Radiant showed (e.g. Kaladin healing his broken legs nearly instantly, Shallan immediately healing head would after removing obstructing object). 5th Ideal Radiant will heal better than 2nd Oath, so they will be even closer to that. That could make sense, however then A-Duralumin is probably not usable? Since that magnifies the Investiture affecting you, not sure though

Ok, it seems we are mostly in agreement on this then. I don't think that would workout, because even in air objects are still connected (in the gravity sense) to ground, yet they are apparently easier to influence with Reverse Lashing then. So I think it is actual touching of ground (being literally 'grounded') that partially protects against Reverse Lashings. So if you break connection to ground, you get no protection. F-Iron would help also, while the acceleration would be same as you say, the weight Fullborn's muscles would have to lift (of their body) would be lower, so they would need less of their strength to just work against this modified gravity. Hmm, interesting though, Lash someone directly to ground a few times to heavily slow them down (or to do weight training) Oh Wayne complains about running low, but that does not change the fact that even ordinary Gold Ferring can apparently heal couple of bullet wounds just on few weeks worth of stored health. Also, while the Rotten tomato we see was done using unkeyed goldmine, they have clearly performed the move before, so it can be clearly done using regular stores Ferring can easily amass. I agree that some of Miles feats are unachievable, however I think for a lot of them the difference is speed with which Miles heals, not the magnitude of damage itself (i.e Miles does not have to care too much about loss when tapping ). Wayne would definately be able to heal broken legs within seconds, and heals bullet wounds in minutes (or even faster). Point is that they are not out of scope of what Gold Ferring with e.g. year of storage could do, it is just that Miles does it in quick succession, because he can compound stores. I.e. give Wayne year or two to store health nonstop and he could walk through hail of bullets too, but then he would be completly out. Miles can compound health for that and more in few days. Thanks! Hmm, it seems to me that it does have to pass through the Feruchemist but you can kinda bypass some of the limitations? Not as clear as I hoped A lot of people speculated on that (and that Kel must be Fullborn because of that). But we don't know basically anything about Bands, or their origin, or even what they actually are (considering the limitations medallions have) It would make compounding faster, but it would not make steelrunner much faster. Different allomantic metals burn at different speeds, so it is possible F-steel metal burns very fast for e.g. only 10x increase in speed. We simply don't know. The point is that F-steel will burn at some fixed speed, and will grant some fixed increase in physical speed. However, the speed at which F-steel burns is unknown, and based on behavior of other metals probably far larger than ordinary steel. E.g. you would burn that steelmind at rate of 0.1/g per second for example, while only getting 10x increase in speed. (exaggertated) We don't know how bands work, nor do we know how quickly F-metals burn, so we cannot really say that. I think that as well, except that her steelminds were those of the Ferring she killed with spike (hemalurgist can access the stores of the previous 'owner', and could possibly burn them). Also I think Bleeder goes against your example, she only shows about 10-15x fold increase in speed, and she seems to be running out by the end (if I recall). So this would be evidence that burning F-steel metalmind increases your speed only in the ballpark of 10-15 fold increase. But Miles knows how much he is getting from burning metalminds, and how quickly they burn. If that solution was as superior as your assumptions/calculations are suggesting, then why would he not do that? He does not lack knowledge nor understanding, he literally experiences the effect every few days, so he would know. So basically my point is that Miles proves that burning the metalminds cannot work as you suggest (i.e. release such insane amount of power for so long) because otherwise Miles has zero reason to not just slowly burn the metalminds he has. So the amount of healing from burning must be insufficient for his purposes, or the goldminds burn a lot faster than regular gold, or both. Set possibly not knowing also does not make sense, they would find out second A-gold allomancer burned shaving from unkeyed metalmind, and they have those. I mean, I am sure they tried getting some to compound. There could be more said, but that is TLM spoiler territory. No Miles was not burning, he was tapping. Miles only burned to Compound and store the compounded health.

The 10x is what is stated in the books, both in Era 1 (Sazed guess) and in Era 2 (by Miles). We have some idea, there is one WoB on the possible rate of diminishing returns, I used it earlier. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) Additionally, we don't know why Marasi and Wax were leaking Mists, when even Miles or TLR never did. This assumes that burn rate for the regular metal, and for the metalmind is the same, which we don't actually know. In fact there is WoB that the burn rate is proportional to power unleashed (more power, faster burn rate), so I would assume Steelmind would burn faster then regular steel. So I would assume that steelmind burns faster, but we don't have a good way to establish base rate of attribute it provides. Additionally, there does not seem to be difference between power of burning just partially charged metalmind, and fully charged metalmind (you just burn out the charged part of metal, and afterwards it is just metal), which in your calculation should make a difference. Edit: Basically, if it worked the way you suggest, then Miles has no reason not to burn his goldminds all the time, since they would burn slowly enough to not get consumed that often and would provide greater benefit. Yet he compounds in his spare time, and then just taps as needed. This suggests that burning the goldmines does not provide him with the amount of healing he would need. In conclusion, I think it does not make sense. It would make anyone with access to unkeyed metalminds basically completely broken, which again, just does not seem to be happening. I think burning metalminds allomantically grants you good deal of power, but not more so than Feruchemist could easily achieve (albeit for longer). But it is tapping the Compounded stores Feruchemically which allows for the insane feats. Basically just like in regular allomancy vs feruchemy, allomancy is strong on average, but Feruchemy spikes a lot higher. He burns through gold quickly, that is one stated reasons he keeps robbing people. He needs the gold for his metalminds. Which again suggests that metalminds burn faster, which would admittedly cut down time needed to Compounded by some factor. Why are you talking about Kel? As far as we know he is not Fullborn. EDIT: Response to @alder24 Possible, we will see one day I question that you could spot it in the first place, depending on the location (.e.g you would notice a leg, but would you notice a couple of fingers?) Yes, but that was done using Bands of Mourning, Marsh does not see that despite being Inquisitor. So it is not just question of skill. Fair, I did not intend it to be taken as fact, just a fun speculation I had. I do think some Shardblade strikes would be visible, but not all, however all would use up healing. Possible, and they would have to either tap more Strength to move, or store weight to be able to move. It would possibly introduce complications is my point. And if Fullborn got into air, they would be completely vulnerable to Reverse Lashing. I mean, Wayne has no issue healing bullet wounds or being splattered after falling hundreds of feat (rotten tomato, suggesting the damage is extensive), despite not being Compounder. So even regular healing has no issues with that sort of thing, and Miles is not doing things that outside of what Wayne does, he just does it more often. I did not want to talk about health, because there we don't really have solid understanding on how it behaves (and in books it seems to just heal about anything). I mean at some point Wayne heals gunshot wound with just health he stored in not even few weeks. Could you quote me that WoB? I tried looking it up, but failed.

I don't think this one would work. Becoming a savant in A-pewter means you no longer feel pain, so tinmind won't help there. Sure you could probably tap it to feel pain when you want, but you would still not feel pain when you should, so the danger would be there.

Well spoted weak point of the theory The only thing I can offer is that Mists being power of Harmony can provide even non-Mistborn/non-Feruchemist access to those abilities temporarily. (sort of like how Honorblades grant access to Surges) Or, if Harmony created them, he did something like mimicking Honorblades , but being unpracticed (since it would have to be done soon after Ascending) created a much more powerful artifact. Another good counterpoint. We got only RAFO on those questions, so we will have to wait and see. Cheating the system was additional motivation, brute forcing stuff is not exactly Kelsier's (or his crew's) style. Yeah, I don't think it makes sense for it to be Kelsier, or really anyone associated with Ghostbloods. And he lacks the means to create artifact like that (because if he could, he would be making more) Where are you taking that from? I am not aware of Harmony restricting Fullborns. The fact that they are not born is just effect of allomancy and feruchemy mixing in population (as far as I know), in principle possible just extremely unlikely. I think it must have been Harmony for the following reasons (extending on the above) The only entity on Scadrial we know of possessing sufficient power and knowledge to create Bands. If they are fueled by Mists, then Harmony is the only entity with definite power over them. If Bands work like Honorblades, it makes sense that Harmony created them (possibly partially on accident) In light of this Medallions would be mimicking what Bands do, in a similar way to what Shardblades do for Honorblades. And since all of Cosmere operates on similar principles, it would be natural analogy . (usage of regular Invested metal instead of Godmetal being necessity due to nature of Ettmetal). Finally, if Harmony was worried about Fullborn dominating Southerns, then it would make sense he would create artifact that could help them counter that. Then it would have been Harmony who would arrange for the Bands to get stolen, since he never intended them for Northerners to begin with. Since Kandra still obey him, he could have asked them to drain the Bands, and then arrange the hand off to Malwish.

Generally I agree with that assessment, though I don't think the one-punch thing will work. Shardplate seems to break like ablative armor (exploding outwards), so I think Fullborn would require at least two punches (one to break helm, second to break skull and touch Radiant). Still feasible, but bit more complicated for Fullborn, and the hit would require Duralumin most likely (or Compounded stores of A-pewter). Also, Windrunner can use Reverse Lashings much more easily now, if Fullborn breaks contact with ground they would get captured (cannot strengthen Connection to ground if the ground is not Connected to you). Could you? Sure leg you would see it buckling, but not now why it happened. However, off hand you might not notice getting cut. Plus using Electrum like this requires either a lot of practice, or non-stop usage of Zinc. And I don't think practice would let you see steel lines of Shardblade, it is not question of skill but of Investiture levels and power. Hemalurgic spikes have very low levels of Investiture, even compared to metalminds, much less Shardblades. Steelsight can be learned, but what you see with it is affected by your power (i.e. regular Inquisitor steelsight, vs BoM granted Steelsight Wax exhibited). The atium is speculative, but if Shardblade (and godmetals in general) would not be visible, then the same should hold, i.e. it is not question of skill. Addressed above (to some extent). However, I have question, Ishar Connected Windrunners strongly to ground, causing Stormlight to run out of their bodies. Could it be that if Fullborn tapped too much Connection to ground, their tapped stores would go to ground too? If so, this would limit applicability of this strategy. I don't think it is actually feasible (compounding fast with A-Duralumin) for one reason, Brandon often limits the magic system if it break things 'too much'. I.e. up until TLM these conversations (vs battles) were dominated by Scadrial using hemalurgy and medallions to create armies of Compounders, and everyone questioned how can Scadrial not just dominate everyone in Era 4. After TLM it turns out compounding with Hemalurgy and medallions is not possible. Similarly, I think letting A-Duralumin bypass one of the only two limitations Fullborn has (time and access to a lot of metal) will simply not be possible for similar reason. Also remember that the attribute will still pass through Fullborn, which would probably do stuff to their spiritweb if done in those quantities.

Thanks for that WoB that is interesting Technically this could either help or hinder Fullborn, depending on how spaced out the 'classes' are. We have that one old WoB which is more to just give an idea that it happens. Basically the case I have above is sort of 'best case' scenario based on the information we have. If for example the penalty grows, then even Fullborn would have trouble accessing such speeds for example. However, it is wildly speculative at this point. However, considering what we see from BoM I think the estimate is about the right ballpark, i.e. Fullborn can get at best minutes of supersonic speeds, and Compounding stores to that level will take a lot of time (i.e. years) I do maintain that Duralumin is not suitable for speeding Compounding up, a lot of tricks that removed serious limitations on magic systems are restricted by Brandon to not be possible (or at minimum being heavily non-trivial and requiring special set up).

Sometime ago I proposed a theory that Bands of Mourning are not medallions granting all powers, but instead only nicrosil minds storing Mists Full theory can be read here, the main evidence is that 1) Users of Bands trail Mists (which only Vin exhibited when drawing the in) and that 2) effect of tapping it sounds very much like what Vin described whan drawing in Mists After TLM I think there is a bit more evidence for the theory Wax speculates that it is impossible to create allomancy granting medallions (and indeed that creation of medallions is more limited than assumed). This would make BoM more of an outlier, if they are a medallion. Containing just Mists would circumvent this. Kelsier is not Fullborn as was speculated, so there is no obvious way he could have created BoM. Additionally, he is trying to regain his powers so if he did create BoM he has little reason to just leave them. Even if he could not gain powers himself, he has reason to keep them on hand for emergencies, like with purified Dor. BoM provides enhanced allomancy. This was speculated to be result of nicrosil compounding, however in TLM we see allomancers fueled by raw Investiture and they reach similar power levels. So strength of BoM could have been simply result of holding raw Investiture in form of Mists. Edit: This one dates to BoM book, however Wax mentions that Investiture stores in Bands are getting low (i.e. F-Nicrosil). Since Medallions use F-Nicrosil like Coppermind (discrete, returns when stored, not cosumed), this implies that whatever is in BoM F-Nicrosil mind is more 'continuous' then a discrete power. If what is stored is bunch of raw Investiture like Mists, that line makes more sense IMHO. Additionally I would propose that BoM were created by Harmony directly, some time before he became too restricted to act. He then used Kandra (Ten-Soon) to impersonate Kelsier, and spread legend of them in the South.

Hand signals for such effects is a smart thing. To use it properly would require F-Zinc i think, because A-Electrum does not help process the information way Atium does, but Fullborn has access to that so that should not be an issue. The only complication I see is that A-Electrum shows only Fullborn, nothing else, so even though Fullborn will now they will get leeched 2-3 seconds earlier, the don't know how that happens. And if it is area effect, it can be difficult for them to avoid it anyway. How exactly would F-tin grant future sight?

I made a mistake there, it should have been 10x fold increase when burning, (for 10+1 amount of regular attribute), since if by tapping you get +100% (i.e. doubles), then burning gives 10 times that, it gives +1000% of attribute, for the end result of 10x increase. So 10x 200lbs = 2000 lbs (still more than Shardplate, but not by much) 10x 24 mph = 480 mph at most (which is still respectable, but far cry from Mach speeds mentioned earlier in the thread) and these are speeds Windrunner can match and exceed (under favorable conditions) 10x increase in strength is less then what Shardplate can do (which is in the range of 20-30x increase), so using just this Fullborn would be weaker than Radiant in Plate (but there is also A-Pewter that would add increase, and possibility to compound it, which would put them on par or beyond depending on how that can work). 10x Connection we have no clue what would do, or if you can store connection to 'forces of nature' 10x mental speed is impressive, but far cry from 'limitless mental speed' as has been described earlier I don't think they are actually. Shardplate vs Shardplate combat is a thing on Roshar already (for deadplate), and since it seems that Shardplate is stronger than Fullborn who is 'just' burning attributes, Fullborn would have issues breaking through plate. They would have to resort to Duralumin punches, or possibly Duralumin Steel to get through, which would still take few hits to do. The 10x increase in speed is again the one thing that would allow Fullborn to win, but at those speeds Windrunner has more of a chance to immobilize Fullborn (e.g. using Reverse Lashings).