therunner

Very technical argument Though you could strike more than one at a time, it all depends on how they are layered. Shardplate can break crack multiple sections of Plate at once, so it could crack multiple metalminds at once, if it makes contact.

I would agree, but what little we've been told directly of how they work is that they work entirely separately from regular Shardplate, mostly because Shardplate isn't a Fabrial and so its effects can't be recreated directly the way Artifabrians think. Besides, Navani got access to and sent the designs of the Half-Shards to Azimir with Dalinar. They've had conversations with Spren about the ethics of Fabrials before, and it seems unlikely to me that the Half-Shards use True Spren, else they would have protested against their imprisonment. The Stormfather at least would have said something about it, given his reaction to Ishars experiments, especially since Brandon has RAFO'd whether something terrible happens to the Spren when a Half-Shard breaks. The fact that it may be a Radiant Spren was said to Dalinar's face, and yet neither he nor the Stormfather react to it. The Coppermind notes that Taravangian may have been lying when he says that. Good point that Stormfather does not comment on trapped spren. However, during WoK they had no clue Shardplate was not fabrial, they even though Shardblades were fabrials. And in a way they are, just like soulcasters, however they are less technical and more magical, for lack of a better word. They must not be simple Augmenter, for the very simple fact that no other group was able to replicate the effects, and Half-Shards were gigantic breakthrough. Sticking a gemstone to shield would not be enough, Fabrial creation is quite precise science. Slapping a gemstone to a shield will do exactly nothing. Well, for one, if it was not, it would not break like it does after blows from Shardblade. It shatters, Shardblade never cuts it like ordinary matter. If it was 'just' augmenter, than it should not resist like it does, because it is specifically Investiture resisting Investiture that creates the blocking effect. No physical material will stop Shardblade, only aluminum. Good point. Hmm, could they store the weight of metalmind itself into metalmind? That would be a neat trick if possible. If the construction was Iron it would double as support and as metalmind storage. Ask, and ye shall receive: As you can see it is 'a dozen', singular. How it works with the fact that there are more sections is a question. However, I think we can be relatively certain that single spren = single section, simply because clearly it is relatively low number of spren forming Shardplate, RoW just did not call them all out. Per Navani in WoK they can take shape of only shield and only ever appear in the same diamond shape. This suggests that the metal of shield is part of the Fabrial construction. The information on it being Augment does come from Ars Arcanum, however that is limited on occasion. If you could attach it to any other shape, they could easily make breastplate using the same technology, yet they do not. I don't think there would be difference in density, some spren are larger than others, so it could be that. Alternatively, there might some commingling of Investiture once they all join, which lets it balence itself out?

BoM are full Metalmind, which is comparably Invested to Half-Shards. I expect they would break just as fast.

Fair enough, I think differently based on the recent WoB. I don't we will convince each other, so let us move on from this particular line of discussion. Until we are shown others, it makes more sense to assume that Half-Shards work on the same principle as other Invested Items, and not on some new unknown principle. Half-Shards are moderately Invested like Full Metalminds, Half-Shard can resist Shardblade blows, as can full Metalmind. Therefore easiest explanation is that Half-Shard resists simply because it is Invested. Occam's razor. The fact that it does not shatter into molten metal, and just non-molten metal is relatively small difference though. And Half-Shards are described as Invested as whole, so damage to shield most likely damages Fabrial itself as well. If the shield is part of construction (which I think it is) than Fabrial won't work because its cage is damaged. Also Fabrial is not just the gemstone, but also the metallic cage around it. So if you think only metal of the shield shatters, why not the much finer metalwork of fabrial? But shattering is feature of both Shardplate and Half-shard, despite the fact that metals don't ordinarily shatter like that. Would it? With medallions that can store weight of ship, you could plausibly fill metalminds relatively fast (at least Iron ones). Yeah, I was thinking of that WoB but was too lazy to find it We know from Shardbearers suiting up that Shardplate doesn't separate into nearly so many pieces: Shardplate is separated into these pieces: Sabatons Greaves Cuisses Culet Faulds Skirt Breastplate Rerebraces Vambraces Gauntlets Gorget Pauldrons Helm That's far from the "Dozens" that are described. You are mistaken, the line actually reads (I can provide photo if you want): Not dozens, a dozen. So with the one that already slammed into him, that is exactly 13. I think you just proved my line of reasoning for me. Seemingly it is, based on your very own research. RoW, Interlude 1, pg. 280 If they could just choose to leave, why does Deadplate exist?

What is suitably though? The reason I think they would break is that everything apart from other Shardblades breaks. If someone figures out how to turn metalminds into fullblown Shardblades, then yes those would resist permanently. Other than though, I don't see it.

Thanks for the WoB, good supporting evidence. And while Feruchemist could store a bit more after it is damaged, unless they are Compounder they cannot store enough to make a difference. As discussed multiple times, full Metalminds of even relatively small size most likely store years worth of Attribute. Not something Feruchmist can replace on the fly. Of course, if the failure is due to something else (e.g. spiritual/cognitive aspect of the object being damaged and broken), then Investing the object more won't help unless that Investiture somehow strengthens that damaged aspect. For Shardplate, spren in general consume and are healed by Investiture, so even when in physical form Investiture still heals them. So it is not effect of being just invested, but natural part of the spren being leveraged. Metalminds don't have analogue of that effect, they don't become more physically resilient, or 'perfected'/fixed by Feruchemist storing into them. Huh, forgot about that. Yeah, I was thinking Shardplate + Blade. Shardplate alone, might still win if the wearer knows capabilities of Roseite. It's growth is not that fast, so trapping Shardbearer would not be easy. I think it would come down to which provides better physical strength.

I think suitable Aluminum alloy armor is probably the best bet. Every other method of defense could be most likely broken through with few hits, since nothing outside of another Shardblade has been shown to withstand arbitrary hits. And indeed everything either gets cut through immediately (non-Invested non-aluminum matter), or it shatter after two-three hits (Shardplate, Half-shards). So having Shardblade of your own, or suitable armor out of good aluminum alloy (i.e one that is both sufficiently resistant to supernatural cutting of shardblade, and is also not soft metal like pure Aluminum) are probably the only semi-permanent solutions.

Maybe because for the kind of people who ask WoB questions, Aethers are not obscure? You can simply request manuscript right here on this very site and read the original manuscript. And like I said, perhaps that was the original intent with them, but when rehashing the details he changed his minds due to current Cosmere mechanics. At the moment, in light of the quote from @alder24 I do think that Aethers are somewhat Invested, but in the similar way e.g. fabrials are. So regular matter that is Invested. Half-Shard have been described in relatively good amount of detail. We know they are fabrial, so they are Invested. We know they can take one or two hits from Shardblade before Shattering (like Plate). And they most likely hold Nahel Spren. So the explanation that they work along the same principles as everything else that is said to resist Shardblade (i.e. by being Invested) make sense. There are only two known ways of resisting Shardblade, heavily Invested material or Aluminum. Half-Shard are not aluminum, and Aluminum usage in fabrials was not discoved yet, hence it must be their Investiture. As I stated, shattering effect is not unique to Shardplate, Half-Shard does it as well. So either it is generic effect of being damaged sufficiently by Shardblade for Invested objects, or for some reason metal in Half-Shard starts acting like Godmetal when it becomes damaged. Take your pick. Citation needed. Based on what is on screen that is not the case. Once Half-Shard is shattered, it is destroyed beyond repair and no longer functions. The shield itself is part of fabrial, so if it gets destroyed, so did the fabrial. I doubt that for a simple reason: if that was the case than basically Metalmind would be better armor than Godmetal armor made out Investiture out Shard of Oaths, that requires 4th Oath. Why would side use of Feruchemy be better at defense than aspect of Invested Art designed for it? Escpecially since the Investiture should be kind of great for it (e.g. Shard of Oaths and Bonds will probably have Investiture that holds together quite well). So yeah, I do think that even fully Invested metalmind that can stop a Shardblade would shatter within two-three hits at most. And, if you think that Half-Shards work on different principle, and yet they also shatter, than my case is actually stronger, since it would be two independant instances. No, it affect both Shardplate and Half-Shards. So in all cases of Shardblade interacting with Invested matter (that is not another Shardblade), the object in question shatters after few hits. There is zero evidence to assume that Roseite would act any different. Except we see Godemetal shatter from Shardblade, every single time Shardplate shatters. And it shatters into smaller chunks than the original spren that made it up. From what we see in RoW with Kaladin, it seems that one lesser spren = one section of plate. It explicitly calls out that windspren smashes into his hand and forms gauntlet. So when you shatter a section of plate, you are shattering Investiture of single spren, not separating multiple spren. Quote: And since he can make Plate transparent at will, that this is already full gauntlet. That is nothing but conjecture on your end, there has been no hint that they get more alarmed and more resistant to any Command. And as stated above, single section of plate is single spren, so when it shatters it is not spren scattering, but single spren being damaged somehow. Not beyond repair, but still damaged. Any evidence for this conjecture? Especially in light of the fact that single section = single spren? And lesser spren are not being subjugated, they come willingly to Radiant. Hell, even deadplate does not scream but is instead content with itself. The question was to compare rock armor with Roseite armor, not necessarily specifically against Shardblade. Since rocks crack, Roseite does as well, I answered. So far everything breaks from few hits from Shardblade. Again, why would one application of one Invested Art be better than a specialized thing? Plate is meant to defend, it is designed for that, Roseite is not. I would say specialized tool is better at its task then general one. Give Shardplate Unkeyed Dor and it would regrow super-fast I think. Deadplate can already regrow on its own, providing Stormlight just speeds it up. So providing liquid Investiture would probably speed it even further. Living plate can probably fix itself by attracting new spren of the same type. But it leaves a moment where the section is gone, so it is only useful once section is fully broken (if indeed this way of fixing is possible). So could Shardplate. Water would not be enough, from TLM we can conclude that Roseite + Investiture is just as more powerful than Roseite+water, as Allomancy + Dor is compared to normal Allomancy. Prasanva is quite clear that without Dor he could not create and sustain the golem. And Plate is most likely better at handling gunfire (per WoB it would resist gunfire well, and it does not chip at all), so it is most likely more protective in general. Again, I would wager that specialized tool designed for defense is better at it than a general one that can also be used in similar way. So if you give both same amount of Investiture I would say that Shardplate wins every single time.

Good point! Then I concede that it is Invested somewhat, but still maintain that it is much less than Shardblade/Plate. And that it would shatter with a few hits from Shardblade.

I think it has to do with what happens to the Plate spiritually in some sense. E.g. the Plate shatters spiritually as it is damaged (due to it being made out of lesser spren), and so it then shatters in PR. Also, Half-shards also shatter when they are stricken by Shardblade repeatadly, despite their materialy not being Godmetal, but only regular metal. This suggests that perhaps Shardblade damages Spiritual component of Invested objects in such a way that they lose cohesivness. I.e. it cuts internal bonds in material, and the material than shatters. So, I maintain that Roseite is not actively Invested. Rock would probably crack similarly to the way Roseite does, however some rock might be more resistant? It is hard to say really, but I would think that Roseite would behave better than vast majority (if not all) rocks.

All of the above require Invested Art to achieve. Your proposal would be completely different. Perhaps because in 2018, he was thinking more along the lines of Aethers being Investiture, and since changed his mind? Again, in 2023 WoB he says Aether creates air, not Invested breathable gas. Why not? Half-Shards resist because they are Invested, seemingly by trapped Nahel Spren. This grants them the ability to resist Shardblade strikes. Nightblood, normally unstoppable object of destruction, was stopped by Honorblade. The only explanation there is that it is because Honorblade is able to resist cutting of Nightblood due to being so heavily Invested. It is the same principle in all the cases, the more is object Invested the more it resists being cut by any Shardblade (be it Honor/Shard or Nigthblood). If Roseite is Invested, then its ability to withstand Shardblade would be directly because of that. No, Shardblade are specifically said to cut on all three realms. Perhaps not simultaneously, but they do cut on all three realms. Though since they can cut iron/steel lines, they most likely do cut on all three realms for anything that is not living being. We don't know exactly how the damage works either in Half-shard or Shardplate (or hypothetically, in full metalmind), only that repeated blows will destroy the defensive item beyond use. And seemingly it takes just 2-3 blows to render object useless for defense. Edit: And both Shardplate and Half-shards shatter after repeated blows with Shardblade. Half-shard shatters on screen WoK pg. 799 (I-9). So that is two objects, made very differently, that both shatter. This is at minimum suggestive that common failure mode of being repeatedly stricken by Shardblade is shattering. Hence, 2-3 blows should smash/cut through Roseite even if Invested. And since Shardblade is indestructible, it would most likely carve relatively large sections. If Shardplate can resist gunfire, but breaks with 2-3 hits of Shardblade; and Roseite already chips from regular gunfire, then reasonable assumption is that Roseite is less protective than Shardplate. Hence, Shardblade would ruin Roseite armor in just few hits. Why not? We have no reason to think it won't shatter, in your reasoning it is Invested rock-like object, like Godmetals. Rock shatter more easily than piece of metal, so Invested rock should probably also shatter more easily than Godmetal.

Yes yours, you started with condescension and continued quite liberally. Yes, rope is pulling object in tangential direction, one you cannot get with A-Iron. Lever can both push and pull, depends on how you use it, so the analogy is sound. Once more, gravitational system is the best analogy for A-Iron, with only central force. Yes, and the wire of the earbuds pulls the earbuds. And it pulls them tangentially to start their revolution, not normally towards you. You don't get earbuds to revolve around you by pulling earbuds towards yourself, which is what A-Iron does. Yes you would. If you are pulling from your hand, and your hand drives the movement (which again I dispute would work), then you need to move your hand in circle around your body. Hence, your body has to rotate. I was using proper terminology, no need for further condescension. Your body would have to rotate, not revolve. Rotation is around axis going through body, revolution is around axis outside of body. I have quite comparable experience. All you need is throw e.g. rug over them. Or have armor. As cometaryorbit pointed out, his A-steel was strengthened.

How? Regular digestive process would not do that. At best the acidic environment would degrade the Invested particles, but they would not get any energy or sustenance. Lumarans are regular people, they require the same things anyone else does, and that is composed of ordinary matter, not Invested one. If they can digest it, then it must be made out of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen, with other trace elements. That is what humans can process Why not? Investiture can be turned into matter. Feruchemists are living proof of that, they literally get more muscles when tapping F-Pewter. Soulcasting would be another example, the difference in density is most likely sourced from provided Investiture. Forgery can change/repair objects, and the matter must come from somewhere. Scadrial/Nalthis might be another two examples. (if the Shards simply did not reshape present cosmic dust and debris) There are many examples of Investiture turning into regular non-Invested matter. In light of the more recent WoB it is not too wild to assume that Aethers are simply another example of such. Possibly yes, possibly no. However, Half-Shards are being destroyed by Shardblades, as is Plate (and Plate is slightly less Invested than Blade per WoB). So it is not wild extrapolation to assume that generally more Invested objects can destroy less Invested objects (if it is in 'nature' of the more Invested object to destroy). Shardblades are specifically weapons, and they cut on all 3 realms, similarly to Nightblood. Additionally, they are shown to destroy less Invested objects (Half-Shards, Plate), hence it is relatively clear they would similarly destroy less Invested object like Roseite (if it is Invested at all). Roseite seems to be relatively brittle, and ordinary bullets chip it. Whereeas even Shardplate can resist gunfire well, and Shardblade breaks it in few blows. Shardblade itself seems to be indestructible (outside of Nightblood, anti-Investiture and similar effects). Hence, Shardblade would most likely break Roseite in one or two blows at most.

No, Feruchemy can turn also other attributes into Investiture. Food is just one very specific example (and we don't even know if Feruchemy turns un-digested food, or only digested one). Citation needed, since again no one in Cosmere, outside of Nightblood and Larkin, can consume Investiture for sustenance. Yeah, so they are not Investiture. No more than Scadrian rock, or Scadrians themselves are Investiture. First of the Sun has Avatar, so still larger Shard presence than Lumar. It even has Perpendicularity, which Lumar lacks (as far as we know). I think Aether vines can be digested simply because they are ordinary (if perhaps a bit Invested) matter. That is far simpler explanation. Air is gas yes, but arbitrary gas is not air. E.g. air is not gaseous Investiture. WoB is pretty clear that Zephyr Aether creates air not breathable gas, air. Only when growing. Once grown Aethers seem innert to Iron and Steel. Plausibly Iron and Steel (and other metals) affect only Kinetic Investiture, however this alone is not evidence that Aether once created is Investiture, only that Investiture is present when they are growing (which we knew anyway). Air is not gaseous Investiture! If I say something creates thing A, and thing A is distinct from thing B, then something does not create B. Gaseous Investiture and air are both gases, but they are not the same thing! Why would he specifically say Zephyr creates air if he instead meant it creates gaseous Investiture that can be breathed in? I am not saying that Shardblade could damage Honorblade. Only that clearly more Invested thing can damage less Invested thing (e.g. NIghtblood and Honorblade, or Shardblade and Half-Shard). And since Roseite is seemingly much less Investiture dense (even if it has any Investiture to begin with), than Shardblade would plausibly break it relatively easily. Thank you. Liquid Investiture is still less powerful than Solid Investiture, so it would most likely not block, only resist to some extant.

Shardblade easily passes through spren, so I don't think it would repel it like that. It would simply cut through water balloon, like it would cut through any liquid filled object. Liquids are kind of 'easy' to cut

In every single instance you quote it is Invested Power granted by a Shard within a System, Lumar has no Shards. This is Feruchemy, Invested art, not biological power. Interaction of two god-metals, and it creates regular energy in the form of e.g. photons and other particles (there is no such things as 'pure energy'). Direct Shardic Intervention granted her that power, she was not born with it. True, but again that is just physical reaction, not regular human metabolizing Investiture. The only people that can kind of metabolize Investiture either have Invested powers, or have been modified by Shard. There is evidence of neither in Lumar. I am sorry, but the WoB I quote is very clear in that Zephyr Aether makes breathable air. Not breathable gas, or breathable Investiture, breathable air. The word air has quite concrete meaning, and it is not what you are saying. Nowhere in the WoB you quote Brandon outrights says that Aethers are physical Investiture. 'Technically, what do you call aethers?' that is all he says. Clearly Aethers behave differently from the other kinds of Investiture we have seen, so extrapolating their 'resistance' to Shardblade from Shardic Investiture could be a bit premature. Additionally, the WoB you quote is 5 years out of date, predating writing of ToES and TLM, which is where Brandon adjusted and codified how Aethers work in Cosmere. Newer WoB from 2023 states quite clearly that Zephyr aether creates air, not Gaseous Investiture. Dor is liquid Investiture, and a single Jar was enough to create and sustain Golem for a while. Hence Roseite (even if pure Investiture) is less dense than liquid Investiture. Liquid Investiture is less dense than Solid Investiture. Hence, Shardblade is much more Investiture dense than Roseite. No. We see e.g. Shardblade harm spren, those are also made purely out of Investiture (and indeed are probably more Invested than Roseite would). And we see Nightblood damage Honorblade, so being Pure Investiture does not make object immune to superantural cutting/destroying properties. Hence, Sharblade would still cut Roseite and supernaturally so. Ehm, quote on that atium alloy blocking Shardblade?

That does not make sense for the simple reason considering the Verdant Aether can be eaten. Unless somehow people from Lumar have ability to digest physical Investiture, which is unheard of, they cannot be Investiture in the same sense as God Metals are. Additionally, even if they were physical Investiture in the same sense as God Metals, considering how little Liquid Dor was required to create Roseite Golem, the Investiture density of physical Aether would be far lower than that of God Metal. Hence again, it could resist Shardblade somewhat, but it would not fully block it most likely. Edit: And per this WoB, zephyr aether does not create gaseous Investiture, but breathable air So no, Aether are not physical Investiture like God Metals, or Gaseuous Investiture. They create 'regular' physical matter using Investiture from SR.

I don't think this is the case. E.g. from what we see in SP1 So it would not be too difficult to Soulcast. Though being fed Investiture would complicate it. Based on the point above, I think Shardblade would cut Roseite, perhaps with some measure of resistance because of the Investiture being fed directly into Roseite. So I would say Shardbearer wins majority of times.

Spren in Shardblade form? Probably would be hurt but would survive, like Honorblade. Spren in regular form? Dead, super dead. Nightblood has killed Vessel (much more Invested than spren), and Fused (which are comparable to spren), so it is well within its capabilities.

Do BoM contain Mists? Is Light Lift creates ordinary Cultivationlight, or is it somewhat different? Can multiple people Ascend to single Shard (provided they are Connected together more strongly than usual, e.g. Oathpact)? Is Cultivation trying to prepare Vessels that will be more capable of resisting Intent of Shard?

Yeah, but i would argue that the Connection to SR they have is induced via Oathpact, not by their nature as CS. Kelsier would not have such Connection.

@alder24 Interestingly the quote you give possibly suggests another reason why Kelsier cannot use allomancy, he no longer has it, since he no longer has proper spiritweb (where Allomancy is rooted). Kalak mentions that Heralds have no valid Connection to both Physical Realm (which is not surprising) and Spiritual Realm, which is news revealed in RoW (as far as I know). If this holds for all CS, then Kelsier-CS has no Allomancy, because he has no Spiritual component that would provide him with Allomancy.

Good point. Though I would add that since in TLM he in his thoughts longs for Allomancy again, that suggests that Medallions as Malwish have them cannot grant Allomancy. Otherwise, he would be able to 'fly' around as before by using Medallion. There is however issues of BoM though, since if he helped with their creation, Kelsier should have knowledge of creating Allomantic medallions, and should be able to grant himself Allomancy that way.

Unknown He might be weaker? He got stronger since Warbreaker, and he is at his strongest when is fully consuming Investiture (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222/#e5617). But he would still be stronger than any other Shardblade.

I don't think so. He would leak away some, since the reason he leaks is the fact he is 'super-saturated' with Investiture, having more than the sword can hold. Basically he leaks nearly the same way Radiants do. At least that is my interpretation of the following WoB. So I think he would leak until he is 'only' Saturated, but he would never leak all, because he is fully sentient entity in vein of CS or spren.