therunner

Except that Taravangian wasn't working for thousands of years for that goal, he didn't care about that. And even Rayse wouldn't want to leave, he went to Roshar system for a reason, that being Surgebinding. Plus, what makes you think that Honor could let him leave? Tanavast made a binding Oath to keep Odium in Roshar system, Honor wouldn't want to suddenly let it go. The only way Odium could leave was if Dalinar basically did what he ended up doing, renounce the Oaths Honor made.

Why would TOdium renegotiate? Current setup of the contests is nearly ideal for him, what could Dalinar offer him? From his angle, the only variable still in the air is whether Dalinar will serve him as Fused, or if Dalinar will break his morals by killing Gavinor (or substitute any other innocent), the rest is basically determined anyway. Once Dalinar holds Honor, his only other play is to attack Odium directly, but that would destroy Roshar. Ultimately, Dalinar has nothing to negotiate with, because he has nothing to offer to TOdium.

No it isn't. What is fundamental to Szeth character is his unwillingness to trust himself, so he puts trust into things external. Putting trust in Dalinar is manifestation of that, even as it is small move towards agency. I didn't dispute that. I am saying that there is a difference between doing it out of cold reason, and immediate emotions. Szeth didn't decide to act against Ishar in that moment, he acted on impulse. No it wasn't established. In fact opposite was established, you have to do it in good faith. Not sure how you could miss this, as repeatedly characters swearing Ideal is not accepted due them not actually meaning it, or when they themselves don't believe in it. And? There were no consequences for Kaladin throughout WoK back when he was mere human for quite a while. Or even before WoK, when he was in multiple situations where everyone around him got executed except him. If Adolin has 'plot armor' then so did Kaladin. Fused who cannot use his powers, and who is wearing Shardplate for first time, when it has been repeatadly established that Most Fused rely on their powers and aren't necessarily that good combatants without them You have to learn to handle Shardplate, or you 'overdo' it And Adolin less duels him, and mostly spent his time running around avoiding him. When he does decide to fight back, he is quickly overwhelmed and almost loses. Not to mention that in previous book Kaladin repeatedly duels a Fused who has his powers, when Kaladin is in throes of depression and lacks his powers, and yet Kaladin comes out on top everytime. Why is that not plot armor? Every character is repeatedly saved by 'miracles' as you phrase it. Kaladin in every books is saved by someone swearing an ideal (sometimes multiple times), RoW is resolved by characters swearing ideals at the right time, Thaylen field is resolved by multiple characters swearing ideals and appearing just when needed, etc. Dalinar is saved like Adolin is three times over the first two books, why is it only a problem when it happens to Adolin? It's available to them because he made it available to them. It cannot undermine the effort if it is the result of the effort. Do other Windrunners (who have far easier time than Kaladin and Syl) undermine the effort of Kaladin? He has no more plot armor than other characters. He wasn't originally part of the plot, but clearly is now (i.e. state of Azir is fully dependent on him, that is being part of the plot). He breaks no more rules than other Radiants do (Kaladin does things with wind and speed, Shallan and her connection to spiritual realm, Dalinar and his unity moment, Renarin and his future sight, etc.) If the rules is 'broken' it wasn't a rule in the first place. No. He chose to burn the city, bad act = responsibility. Choosing to trust your allies, good act, not responsible for their failing or betrayal. Is Dalinar responsible for Taravangian betraying them? Or for Mink failing to take back Herdaz? Or for Kaladin failing to bring back Ishar? If he isn't, then he isn't responsible for Tavanast's plan being stupid. No it wasn't about internalizing responsibility, it was about uniting. Taking responsibility was part of it. Did Kaladin regress on his Oaths to protect when he realized that he cannot protect everyone, or that it is okay to put yourself first sometimes? If not, why is it regression for Dalinar to cede responsibility to others? The book repeatedly hammers home that Dalinar should have worked with others more, and tried less to do it himself. Tanavast's mistakes are the fundamental reason they are in this position in the first place. It is the root cause of everything that is happening in SA so far, rectifying those mistakes finally let's things move forward, instead of redoing the past again. Thanks to Dalinar, all people's of Roshar are now free of conflict between Odium and Honor. He promised to do right by people of Coalition, and he did. All the countries of Coalition are free of Everstorm and influence of Retribution, it isn't Dalinar's fault that Theyalen and others switched sides. Odium as such isn't dealt with, because Dalinar recognized it was impossible for him to do so without destroying the planet, and others who could have helped decided not to. No it wasn't. Having better weapons doesn't break the cycle. The conflict is between Honor and Odium, humans and singers are proxies in effect. What is stopping Odium from making more Fused as the old ones get killed? Or simply empowering regals more? It was the final desolation, because due to everstorm, desolation could no longer end. Due to the conditions of the deal, humans and Radians also couldn't oppose Odium, no matter how the contest went. Now Odium is neutered, as it has to hide from rest of Shards, limiting it's direct impact on Roshar. Plus, as Dalinar states, Odium would simply provoke Coalition side into breaking the agreement (e.g. by torturing humans in Odium's territory) and then they would be in worse position then they are now. I have no idea what you mean, Dalinar was the overall leader of Coalition since it was established. Sure Bondsmiths are supposed to be pious and guiding, but as we see in Ishar, how that manifests is...disparate. Plus let's look at Dalinar's options Kill Gavinor The contest is won, Herdaz and Alethkar are back to Coalition. Odium will provoke humans into breaking the treaty (since unlike him, they are not supernaturally bound to keeping his word), rendering the deal null and void in near future. Outcome: War is merely postponed, and once restarted, Coalition is in worse position (singers mature faster, and would now have experience), plus Honor wouldn't be willing to help (as they broke the deal). Don't kill Gavinor Contest is lost, Dalinar (and likely Stormfather) are now Odiums. Odium will again provoke humans into breaking the treaty. Outcome: As above, but Coalition is in even worse position and Dalinar switched sides. Ascend to Honor and keep it Reverts to above scenarios, as Contest is still in place Outcome: as above Ascend to Honor, keep it, and fight Odium Roshar is destroyed + whatever happens as part of Contest Outcome: Roshar is gone and so is everyone on it. Ascend to Honor, and break deals (what Dalinar did) Contest is rendered null and void (as would happen anyway), but Odium is no longer bound to they system (something Dalinar personally never cared about, only due to Hoid he did) and other Shards have to start acting against him. Outcome: Odium can no longer afford to act openly on Roshar and has to hide. Honor has time to get tempered by observation and emotions. Honor combined with Odium forces Odium/Retribution to abide by the terms of the contest (since Dalinar withdrawing could be argued as him losing). Similar to 'Don't kill Gavinor' except Odium doesn't get Dalinar and Stormfather, and Odium/Retribution can no longer act openly on Roshar as he did in the first 5 books. Which of the above would you choose? It falls flat for you, don't speak for others.

As tremayne says, in that case, Adolin was the consequences for Sadeas. Perhaps, in time, there will be more personal consequences for Adolin, but likely not. There are no consequences for Kaladin when he killed Amaram, who was also a high prince. No more than other characters. E.g. Kaladin always either swears an Ideal just in time (WoK, WoR, RoW, WaT), or someone else swears it and saves him (O, WaT). Yes, Dalinar wanted to do it 'right', and failed every time. No one else considers what Adolin did to be a problem, because it was reasonable. If Jasnah was there, she likely would have already hired assassin to do it, but she wasn't. And the expected consequences (Sadeas princedom turning against them) did happen, so the story follows what it established. Not exactly. One, the context changed completely. In first two books, there actually was Alethkar as kingdom, in Oathbringer they are at best kingdom in exile. Laws are only as strong as the power behind them, and in Urithiru Dalinar is the ultimate power. Two, Alethi Law de jure and de facto are two different things. De Jure sure, killing high prince is a big no no. But de facto all that matters is if you can get away with it, as Sadeas himself demonstrates in books one and two. Throughout Oathbringer everyone thinks Dalinar did it, and most consider it fine. They are barely 20 years separated from being united by bloody conquest, they don't have our sensibilities in the slightest. Dalinar is trying to get them there, but most Alethi are not there yet. TL;DR: De jure Sadeas should have been exiled for his attempted murder on high prince Dalinar, but since he had enough plausible deniability (even though everyone understood what happened), they let it go. Adolin then killing Sadeas is seen as them settling score, and in fact throughout Oathbringer everyone thinks Dalinar ordered the killing and consider it as a reasonable reaction.

...Well Though I will say that him killing Sadeas was more than justified. The man tried to have him killed several times, and his plan killed some of Adolin's close friends. Adolin suspected him since day one, so when provoked one time too many, removed the threat. It is a shift yes, but not a change from being a follower. He even literally says to Nale in Oathbringer that perhaps he was simply forced to follow the wrong men when choosing to swear himself to Dalinar. So he still does not believe that him following others is wrong, just that he did not follow the right people. He never defies Nale in Rhythm of War, he still respects him as his leader, even if he is not following him to Singers side (something Nale is fine with). Ishar he never swore to follow, and more importantly, only acts against him in moment of emotional anguish, not out of any calm reasoning. Dalinar is a man, Odium, Honor, Cultivation and even Hoid are effectively gods, there is little responsibility there. Some sure, but being manipulated is not something you can blame the victim for, especially if there is such huge difference in power disparity. He never chose to be manipulated, he tried his best, put his trust in people who should have been on his side, and near the end realized it was a mistake. Plus if other orders are anything to go by, higher Oaths of Bondsmiths would likely be about letting go of control and letting others be responsible as well. There is a bit of a theme in WaT about breaking Oaths to follow the same Oaths (Sigzil and his spren, Szeth and 5th Ideal, and possibly Dalinar). Where did Honor or Cultivation take responsibility for their failings? Or other Shards? That is not why he did it. Dalinar realized he simply cannot win the conflict the way it is set up, Roshar as a whole was trapped in stalemate for millennia, largely due to Tanavast's mistakes. Putting more Oaths on top of the already strained system would not do anything but delay the inevitable. So instead of trying to solve the problem within those predetermined confines, he flips the board. Shards can no longer ignore their responsibility, power of Honor will have more space to grow (and close contact with emotions through Odium will likely help), and Roshar is no longer locked in eternal war between man and singers and can move on. Is it perfect or even great solution? Hell no. But it is the first time since humans arrived from Ashyn, that the conflict actually materially changes and shifts. (There was a chance for at least some shift with BAM, but Tanavast ruined that). No it was not. The system of Oaths does care about Intent, power of Honor does not. There is a difference. That is simply not correct. Killing Sadeas had major consequences, Battle of Thaylen fields is direct consequence of that act. His rejection of Oaths means that he lost a leg, likely permanently. Also, if Adolin were Radiant, he likely could have done more in Azir, so that the dome never fell in the first place. After losing a leg he isn't the best duelist on the planet anymore, but he is still pretty good He loses pretty often, if it was not for Radiants he would have died in: WoK, at the battle of Tower (saved by Kaladin) WoR At the duel (saved by Kaladin) At the Tower (saved by Kaladin and Shallan) Oathbringer At theylen fields, where he was mortally wounded by Thunderclast (saved by Renarin) Rhythm of War In the fight against Emuli (saved by Maya, the first time him being saved is due to his own actions) Wind and Truth Against Heavenly Ones (saved by Shallan, multiple times) Against Thunderclast (again heavily, perhaps mortally wounded, saved by Edgedancer) After the line breaks in the dome (saved by his Honor guard, and the fact that Regals mostly rush out) Against Abidi (saved by his plate spren) Adolin keeps putting himself in danger to try and help, because it is right thing to do, and often survives only because of help of others. Both times Adolin fights Thunderclast he sustain heavy if not mortal wounds, only timely appearance of first Renarin and second the Edgedance saves his life. He kinda couldn't afford to wrestle with that, since they needed anybody to try and keep the line (and they failed I'll note). Though I do agree it would have been nice to see him grapple with that after the dust settles. I don't see it as diminishing his achievements, but as culmination of them. He spent the entire series so far seeing everyone around him get more and more powerful, while he stays the same. These also keep trying to get him to give up Maya, so that he may bond a spren like they do, but he refuses. Still, he tries to do the right thing again and again, putting himself in danger to help others, and trying to help even in little moments (keeping Kaladin company when he is having a depressive episode, being accepting of Shallan, everything with Maya, saving Notum, etc.), never once getting a tangible reward for it. And at the end of WaT, facing near certain death against Abidi, his actions are finally rewarded, and save not just him, but Azir. Mechanically speaking, we have little idea of what happened there, but then again, we are only at the mid point of the series. Well there it the whole fourth moon thing, so something is happening on Roshar in general. Personally I suspect it has something to do with Valor.

Oh, well, I can't possibly disprove this ultimate argument, so thank you for the discussion. @MagicMaggot does make arguments, you just didn't engage with them. They are right below the one sentence you quoted, in case you overlooked it. We are half-way through the series, why should there be full explanation for it right now? We have partial reasoning in that: Observing or interacting with object/person, forms Connection (seen everywhere in SA) Adolin is the only person seen that treats his Shardblade as more than just a weapon, even before learning its true nature People can be healed/supported by close Connections Adolin 'gives' something to Maya in RoW through their Connection, which seems to kick-start the process in full There can be spiritual 'echoes' of likely future events (Kaladin being good with spear) Adolin's eventual awakening of Maya helped her be slightly more aware even prior to him sending he power (e.g. when she tells him her name in Oathbringer) Also, the spren are simply wrong about deadeyes, unreliable narrator. Well, there are several factors that were impossible before, and some that are very rare. Before ~10 years ago, there were no Radiants since Recreance. We know that spren forming Nahel Bond makes it easier for others to do the same (Syl complains about how easy other Honorspren have it for example). No wielder of Shardblade was closely related to Bondsmith (and we know that being close to someone is factor, which is why Radiants appear in clusters and seem to be drawn to one another) Urithiru was not functional. As per the comments, being in Urithiru helped Maya greatly. Adolin (despite not swearing Oaths) lives and breathes Ideals of Edgedancers, taking care to pay attention to everyone around him, even animals and inanimate objects. Being so aligned with Intent of the Order of his Shardblade likely helps immensely. This is not fully unique, as e.g. Dalinar (post-Rathalas) seems to be kinda aligned with Oathbringer, as Stormfather notes the sword is not as much in pain. We are half-way through series, and Unoathed are clearly set up for next books. So the answers are coming, just later. And in fact we do see something similar with Kaladin, as there were multiple odd occurrences, that are outside the norm since first book Wind seeming to help him and interacting with him since WoK (explained 4 books later) Kaladin's atium moment in duel in WoR (explained 3 books later by him becoming Herald, who have such powers) Storm parting for Kaladin in O (likely explained 1 book later, by windspren being related to Windrunners) Kaladin being called Son of Tanavast (still not explained even 4 books later, WaT even calls attention to it!) And this is a pattern, e.g. Shallan oddities since WoK are explained partially in RoW, and fully in WaT, full 3-4 books later. Explaining what is happening with Adolin (who is not even one of the main 5 characters) is fully in line with how other things are being explained. That is just you not engaging with the material. Adolin's arc breaks suspension of disbelief for you I guess, which is fine, we all have subjective standpoints. But that does not mean there are no reasons for what is happening to him. While the Tower is enormous, everyone is exploring it starting from the same point. Them being close is a coincidence, but not an unlikely one. You can just as well complain that e.g. Moash happened to have ended up in a bridge crew with Kaladin, person who was victimized by the same lighteyes. Sadeas felt comfortable provoking Adolin because he saw him as 'honorable', like Dalinar is at the time. He even tells him something along the lines. But, he misjudged Adolin. Plus, Sadeas is likely frustrated that Dalinar is still in power, and is taking it out on 'safe' target.

No, it is not empty That is very much not empty. It was empty before, now its refilling, and quickly enough that it is noticeable just standing there. If it was empty, there wouldn't be liquid inside. There is an indiciation Song of Prayer still works, Fused in Shadesmar have Light. Additionally, why would it stop working? Odium clearly set up agreement with his Fused and Regals to supply them with Light after they sign Song of Prayer. Odium is now merged with Honor, who is kinda obsessed with keeping your word. How would that let Odium break his word? Venli and Listeners defected from Odium, i.e. broke their agreement first. As such Odium/Retribution does not have to follow any agreement he had with them. And Shallan has her in custody, she will know as much or as little Shallan lets her. Both PR and CR are controlled by Retribution. Even if no one misses it, no one can also let Scadrial know (just keep Ala in box elsewhere). Roshar has air supremacy, Scadrial lack air force, and their AA gun are wholly insufficient. They are trying to use ~1900s weapons to fight what are WW2 planes in speeds, and their betters in maneuverability. Point is that Roshar can defend against both Aluminum bullets: armor helps or even fully resolves it Non-Aluminum bullets: Repulsor or Attractor fabrials Aluminum bullets are the better option in my opinion, but they are not 'silver bullet' so to speak. You can put holes for spikes, or create soulcast armor right on top of them (which is costly). Direform chest also looks relatively spike free, so you could protect their vitals anyway. They wouldn't have to Lash their clothes, any force would be negligible and they would carry it. Same or similar for weapons. Unless for high extremes of lashing. Similarly, do you think that anything Radiant carries will get Lashed with them? If you Lash yourself, you at most Lash anything you perceive as part of yourself. If you don't see armor as that, you won't. Likely more people see clothing as part of themselves, since they carry it all the time (especially if it uniform) vs steel armor you put on solely for battle. Lashing yourself is likely more cost effective than Lashing external objects. We know that Radiants hold Stormlight better, and e.g. Heavenly Ones can fly indefinitely, suggesting that Lashing yourself is relatively cheaper.

Hmm, true. I guess when reading about something called source of current, I automatically connected it with the 'sun' towards which the 'clouds' point in Shadesmar. But it is not actually said, explains why not one is talking about it

If the Intent is there he must accept them. Cultivation accepts Oaths from e.g. Willshapers, so it isn't just on Honor and his perception.

WaT established that the 'sun' in Shadesmar is "The Grand Knell, death of a God". From other sources (Secret History and Isles of Emberdark) we know that the 'sun' moves, it used to be higher in the sky and eventually vanishes. We also know that Invested entities can linger after 'death', some even become Cognitive Shadows (such as Threnodites). Adonalsium was likely the most Invested being ever. Could the Grand Knell be something along the lines of remnant of Adonalsium, cognitive shadow/manifestation of sorts?

Plate would do well against bullets, there are WoBs, there is evidence from books (Roseite golem being from more brittle and soft material, yet being bullet proof). Brandon calls it Powered Armor, and so far all evidence is for that. Against explosions, from what we see in Sunlit man, it handles quite extreme environmental conditions with ease. That is a good tactic, though I will say that bendalloy is very expansive, so it is not tactic that could be sustained over periods of time. Wayne typically has enough for few minutes at most. If there are AoE leeching grenades, there will be likely e.g. supresion fabrials or repulsor fabrials to block them from functioning or getting where needed. You have to do enough damage before they get close enough to kill you. Seeker won't be able to kill Husked One, it is pointless they can track them if they materialize right next to them. We have no evidence either way. But i maintain that if a power is explicitly setup as not possible to detect because it is quiet, then power which relies on listening to pulses of power won't be able to detect it either. Yes, and we know that Wayne typically has enough healing to heal few bullets at most. Fused have enough healing to restore Shardblade wounds, something which requires a lot of Investiture (seemingly comparable to regrowing limbs). They could withstand multiple gunshot wounds. Fused do in fact used aluminum coated weapons, it is mentioned several times in WaT. So they do have some level of that knowledge. I mean, tanks are plate armor just thicker, it's just that humans couldn't wear thick enough armor as it would be too heavy. Circa 12-15 mm of steel plating is enough to stop machine gun fire of steel bullets. If Scadrial is using aluminum ones, than 4-5 mm of steel plating will be enough. Warform and Direform are already comparable to steel armor, so if you then additionally give them actual one on top, they should be mostly protected. Yes, you are correct that the force transference will be problematic, but it would still cut their losses dramatically. Conversely, Scadrial does not yet have weapons of the power of WW1 ones. Also, Source? You would be limited by number of allomantic grenades though. Each one is fueled by Harmonium, which is likely a rare substance. Marasi has trouble obtaining just 3 of those. They would have them, but I doubt they would be as omnipresent as you suggest. If i recall right, we saw that once, when Moash caught Leshwi off-guard. Since Thug cannot heal, them getting close to Fused is simply suicide for them. Again, Leecher must be in hand to hand range, where Singers have massive advantage. Leecher would simply die. Leeching is not instantaneous, there are WoBs that it drains e.g. non-invested metal before Invested one. And Scadrial is low-investiture world, whereas Roshar is pushing around massive quantities of power. I think it is safe to say that any leeching would take several seconds most of the time. Singers are likely immune to any human diseases, so that is irrelevant. Singer forces are also at minimum twice as strong as human, so 30% increase in gravity would only mean their advantage is slightly smaller, but not negated. @alder24 I do agree that it is very time consuming. I mostly agree, though I think in non-united scenario Roshar still has shot (if we ignore time warp). This is incorrect. In the last Venli chapter, it shows the Well filling with Warlight in liquid form, and rather fast at that. I disagree. Timewarp only blocks Roshar from going off-world, however it won't help Scadrial much in attacking it. Scadrial (as you note) has no easy way off-world. Timewarp does not change that. Scadrial's sole advantage are guns, and those require ammunition which cannot be created in Cognitive. So they need supply lines running back to Scadrial From TLM Melaan epilogue, we see that travelling to other worlds can take easily 1,5 years. Scadrial would have to have supply lines in thousands of miles, and through Shadesmar. They coudn't defend those, and at least 1/3 would be in Rosharan Shadesmar, where timewarp effect both sides. Finally, only way to get to Roshar proper is Pernedicularity on Shatterd Plains. That could be relatively easily defended, it would be similar to dome scenario, only easier, since you could soulcast surroundings into e.g. rock to block it off. So Scadrial cannot get off planet easily, and if they could, they would have gigantic vulnerability in the form of their supply lines. And then they would have very hard time even simply getting to Roshar. So from that angle, timewarp just means that neither side can attack the other, and we are kinda done. I ignore timewarp, because I only want to compare what are the actual strategic, tactical and martial options of both planets. Incorrect. Listeners and other citizens get Warlight from Everstorm after prayer. Fused still have access to it via Song of Prayer. That was the deal Odium made with them, and Retribution couldn't just change it or break it. There is no reason for that to change, and it is noted that Fused in Shadesmar still have Light (even though neither Everstorm nor Hightstorm provide Light in Cognitive), so the only way they can get it is via Song of Prayer as before. Ghostbloods On Roshar very fully eliminated in only 10 days. They no longer have any contacts with Fused or Unmade, as those who made those contacts and deals are dead. It is highly unlikely that any operatives who can communicate to Scadrial remain, as based on the meeting in WaT, only Felt, Malwish and Mraize communicated with Kelsier. Kelsier didn't even know that the entire operation was dismantled and leadership killed until Shallan called him. As of now, Ghostbloods don't have any visibility or presence to Rosharan matters. And lastly, Ghostbloods were unable to stop Set from their plans despite them operating for decades, they are far from the all-powerful group their Rosharan branch pretended they are. If you have air superiority, you can effectively teleport behind their back, that is why it is so important. As of now, Roshar has that air superiority, which would cause no end of headaches for Scadrial. Fused do have Warlight, and simple armor would stop aluminum shrapnels. Elend could study writing of people who used the same tools he did, current Scadrial generals cannot do that. They will have to come up with their own. What do guns have to do with adaption??? Seriously. I would assume that the side that actually did fight in a war will be able to adapt faster, then the side that never did, and invented their weapons few years ago. Right, but you and others keep saying Scadrial will be using aluminum bullets, which will reduce their penetration properties roughly to 1/3. Which means that 4-5 mm of steel plate would stop those bullets. Put regular 3 mm plate on Warform or Direform, and they have the needed protection, or very close to it. Not true, regular soldiers do wear steel armor in all the books. Do you know why Windrunner don't wear armor? Because they would have to always lash it as well as themselves. If they wouldn't, the armor would be pushing on them with quite unpleasant forces, with their healing abilities cloth is more practical. Basically, armor would hinder them much more than regular soldier. I'll try to summarize my points, if they two sides ever got into battle (irrespective of location) Scadrial Their primary advantage are guns, but that renders them dependent on supply lines (bullets and spare parts don't grow on trees). They lack air force, which means they cannot properly defend those supply lines, rendering all of their tactics vulnerable. They also have tiny manpower, and training takes months of time (and no, untrained dude with gun won't be killing hundreds of Regals). Roshar Primary advantage are Invested forces, both Fused and Regals. Their primary issues is inability to lead ranged combat. Some Fused can get around that (Husked Ones being primary example). However, they can disrupt Scadrial supply lines easily (Heavenly Ones and Skybreakers can simply fly over 'battle lines' and attack either convoys, trains or factories). They can also by simply putting on steel armor make their soldiers very resistant to aluminum bullets. Regular steel bullets would be still effective, however those could be affected by attractor or repulsor fabrials. Roshar can also replicate the advantage of Scadrial more easily than vice versa. All in all as things stand currently, to me it seems that Scadrial tactics (i.e. use guns) are wholly dependent on supply lines they have no hope of defending. Roshar forces can disrupt those, and then grind them down. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would be doable. This is as things are now, any development of future technologies would shift this (e.g. planes). But since we know that few short centuries into the future Scadrial and Roshar are at war, and neither seemingly has upper hand, it is unlikely that either side gets too far ahead of the other. On that we can agree.

That is the usual way these go Post RoW one had around 80 pages, and eventually we did get somewhere (though there were still major disagreements) and shifted mostly to theorycrafting of what can be done with e.g. medallions and fabrials. I do enjoy discussions for their own sake, so coming up with counterarguments (or conceding if I fail to do so) is fun to me on its own.

Ah, apologies for misunderstanding. Then yes, I think that makes sense. Sorry for confusion, I didn't mean that you should provide source for that, I was tagging you for the quote below, regarding Leechers Scadrial does not have healers, they have only few hundred Gold Ferrings at best and those cannot heal others.. Even if considering united planets, Scadrial would only have some gold medallions (not sure if we ever even saw those), and Gold Ferring has to store for a week or so to heal single gunshot wound (Wayne comments on that in AoL). Compared to Fused, healing fabrials (Skybreakers should have at least one) and Edgedancers (if considering united planets), Roshar has far greater resources for keeping their soldiers operational. Such bullets are bad at penetrating armor, something aluminum is already bad at. Bullets like that would likely break upon impact of armor/carapace and not get into body at all. True. I didn't mean that Roshar wouldn't have any issues, just that since they actually do have experience with warfare (decades to millennia even), that will give them advantage in devising tactics and strategies. I am ignoring the time dilation, as I don't think it can be taken into account properly. It would require us to make guesses as to how Scadrial will proceed decades into future, and that is not something we are really equipped to do, in my opinion. So I am sticking to just comparing existing resources, or very minor extrapolations. Ah, sorry it does not. The map confused me a bit I don't think oxygen levels would do much difference, reasons and evidence follows: First, oxygen level itself is not the key value, it's partial pressure is. If we assume that Roshar has oxygen content of 35% (maximum ever achieved on Earth), then due to lower gravity of Roshar (0.7 of Earth) the partial pressure of oxygen at sea level is only circa 22kPa, not far from Earths (and Scadrials) 20kPa. In other words, Rosharan on Scadrial should feel pretty normal, about as much as in ~1500-2000 meters, far below where it would have sizable impact on performance. If the above does not apply or convince, there are also Cosmere specfic reasons. People in Cosmere are Invested, which makes them tougher and more adaptable than IRL humans (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14746), and people of Roshar are especially so due to omnipresent Investiture (they don't really have plagues and such due to that). As such, they could withstand lower oxygen levels better than we would and would adapt faster (especially Regals and Fused). Throughout Stormlight, we see people (both human and singer) travel rather large height difference with no ill effects. Urithiru is circa 4500 meters above sea level, and Regals and Fused walk there on foot (Venli and Raboniel in RoW), never mentioning any ill effects due to height and Stormform are combat ready immediately. Any travel between planets would be through Cognitive, which likely has oxygen concentration equal to corresponding planet, interpolating between. So forces would be adapting on the way, which is at least several weeks long. So any Singer forces on Scadrial would likely be mostly effective from the get go, if not fully effective. Literature actually does not support this assertion, there is no evidence of any significant improvement of performance with oxygen levels. Plus as mentioned above, partial pressure of oxygen is likely comparable between Roshar and Scadrial.

Yes. Harmony cannot act, so much so that Avatar formed on its planet and it was powerless to do anything direct about it. Retribution has at least semi-aligned intents, or at least not ones that are opposite, and so can actually act. Once Harmony turns into Discord, that will change.

Fair enough. I wouldn't say so. Plate will get damaged less than golem, and so will require less Investiture to heal. Quite fast is still possibly decade or so, remember that Scadrial is slower than expected when it comes to technology development. At very minimum, there would at least a year or two where Roshar has no comptetion in the air, and afterwards they will still have superiority in everything except eventually numbers (if the factories remain standing, it will be difficult to protect them against side with air superiority). Both France and Germany had much larger industrial base at the start of war than US. Basin's economy is modeled after mix of Wild West US, and 19th century Britain, they are not industrialized enough to match either Germany or France. Hell, only Elendel is capable of building and maintaining railways, that tells you where they are when it comes to industry. Basin will be lucky to produce one thousand planes per year. One word, Duralumin, so clearly no, not all aluminum alloys behave as pure aluminum. Plus, the WoB does not even say that. It says that alloys 'kind of' get the property of aluminum, i.e. they are not exactly like it. Again, Duralumin alone disproves this. At that point anti-light was discovered ~11 days ago at most, and everyone else was busy with other things. The war would take longer, and so they could create more, as you say, it is quite easy. Good point. I suspect there will otherways to force this interaction, though right now they are also limited. The fact that the Set didn't use rockets suggests that ultimately they couldn't solve the problem. Scadrial does not have any generators small enough to fit on such rockets. Wax needed industrial grade power line to melt relatively small piece of Harmonium, for any bomb application you will need more. Plus, Telsin explicitly says they couldn't get it to work, and that advanced rocketry and ballistics are beyond them. Harmony also comments that being given knowledge and not getting it yourself will have consequences. Really, figure it out fast enough? Did anyone other than Lord Ruler figure out new bindpoints? It won't be fast. Hemalurgy is thought of on these forums as far easier than the books show it to be. Marsh was piloted by Ruin, so does not count. Inquisitors tried and failed, so does not count. Again, no one ever spiked anyone in combat, unless Shard was guiding them. It is radically different in that now spren, Fused and Radiants can leave Roshar, and there is no Bondsmith. If not considering united planets, primary forces of Roshar are also now singers and Fused, not humans and Radiants. As you say, we don't know how they will progress, that makes it next to impossible to have any discussion. Scadrial arguments will rely on IRL tech progression, which however we already know is not how Scadrial is progressing. And they will assume Scadrial can make use of given knowledge, without actually understanding underlying principles. Roshar arguments will rely on fabrial advancements, and possibly espionage. Plus the only realistic fight in that scenario is Scadrial trying to invade Roshar, which is basically impossible for them to even start (with their lack of access to Shadesmar), much less win. It isn't about having faster reflexes than a bullet speed, just than your opponent. Light will help you track where generally Husked One will appear, not where gemheart will be. Plus gemhearts are small and inside a body. Hitting them on purpose is basically impossible, because you can't see them, and they are target smaller than a closed fist. If the shooter does not hit it (which they won't with any likelyhood), they are dead because Husked One will stab them. I'd say Husked One will win such fight 95/100 if not more. Shardblade won't penetrate those belts, bullets won't rip through them. We had this discussion, bullets don't have nearly enough energy to penetrate, especially if they are aluminum ones, as those will be 3x lighter, and so will have 24x less momentum and 195x less kinetic energy. If we will be conservative, Sigzil had to penetrate about 6 cm of carapace and skull to do what he did, aluminum bullet would penetrate at most 2.5 mm . Plus aluminum will be far softer than the belt, and aluminum does not disrupt powers directly (if it did, it would pop speed bubbles). It would barely scratch them. To put it bluntly, bullets won't do anything to Focused Ones, you will need to use artillery on them, which won't be able to target them with any accuracy. Fair. Yeah motion happened, but my point was that 'chargin machine gun' was not really that common a tactic, hence assuming Roshar will just blindly be doing that is unfair. Also, WW1 artillery does not target moving things easily. Those calculations are not that straightforward. You can use it to target moving large groups, because there being 3 meters off won't matter. Against individuals, WW1 artillery is not fast enough in retargetting. Process of firing artillery is that You get coordinates of the target. Calculate firing solution Adjust artillery Fire Even if steps 2 and 3 take only 5 seconds each (they won't), that means moving target is now up to 50 meters elsewhere, and you have to re do it all of it. So no, artillery won't be able to hit individual Fused. It will be able to hit either stationary targets, slow moving targets, or large targets (such as Thunderclasts). Yeah, and it would help Roshar not Scadrial. Urban environemnt means short line of sight, so any conflict takes place over 'short' range, as far as gun ranges go. Clearing building would favor Fused and Regals immensely compared to open field. As you say, Fused and Skybreakers would be trying to destory it, and frankly I don't see how they coudl not succed. What will machine gun do against stones dropped on their location? Or Husked One appearing in the middle of them? Or Focused One hurtling boulders at them? Once you destroy the machine gun, you can do charge, under some cover (such as shardshield, or half shards, or even moving barricades). Even if metals are 'everywhere' they are still not literally everywhere, so Surgebinders still have advantage. And if Coinshots and Lurchers never even have to consider g-forces, that just means they accelerate much slower, which means they are less maneuverable. So again, Surgebinders will still have advantage even closer to ground. Ah, true, forgot about that. Huring its body is intended to hinder it, so they can get Shardbearer in position to kill it. That one fled from Renarin, he didn't kill it. Safe to say Scadrial won't be able to do that. The quote does not say they can spawn only on uncovered natural rock, only that it is more difficult on worked stone or covered stone. We don't know what that means exactly, but it is clearly not impossible. Once Husked One grabs Leecher, they will stab them and kill them. What exactly is Leecher supposed to do, bleed on them threateningly? I'd say it is unlikely. Why keep repeating Lightweaving is silent, and Ghostbloods have to use white sand to detect it, if not because it is silenet generally? You wouldn't use them everywhere, just where needed. Plus one Fused can destroy more than one maching gun, especially Heavenly Ones, Husked Ones and Focused Ones. Are you really suggesting that Scadrial will start shooting with machine gun on their own positions? If they did that, than Husked Ones just have to appear, and then other machine gun stations will do their work for them. Aluminum bullets are not the end-all of Invested warfare, Wayne is not suddenly completly useless because there are aluminum bullets. And that favors Roshar, because they have immortal Fused, more soldeirs and faster growth cycle. Roshar can sustain loses much more easily than Scadrial can. Not in urban warfare. Not really no, tanks are made of steel plates. WW1 tanks had armor about 0.6 to 1cm thick, and that stopped machine guns. Steel plate is about 3mm thick, so even just Warform singer needs regular steel plate on top of their carapace to start being comparable to light tank in defensive properties. And Direform is even better protected. And even if for some reason they couldn't wear armor, they could build simple covered siege weapons and use those. Edit: I realized that if Scadrial uses aluminum bullets, then the penetration ability will be roughly 1/3 of steel ammo. As such, even 4mm of steel should be enough to stop the bullet completly. I.e. Warform likely requires relatively thin plane to render them virtually bulletproof against machine guns (for some time at least), and Direforms are likely impervious. If Scadrial wouldn't be using aluminum ammo, then Roshar can use attractor fabrials to mess with aim. You are missing the point, thanks to air superiority of Roshar, trenches are useless. Trenches are only to stop enemy from getting beyond them, but Roshar can simply fly their units over. At most you could use them to protect strategic assets, but then you have relatively small lenght of them. Most metalborn are not particulalry dangerous to Fused or even Regals. There are 20000 metalborn total in Basin based on numbers we have, and that is across all 32 powers. We know some powers are more common (Coinshots) and some less (Steelrunners), but average number will be ~600. Also, this is across all age groups, in reality you will have only about 1/3 of those numbers that are healthy and combat ready, so only about ~6000 metalborn will be in fight. Only gold, steel and pewter Feruchemists are directly relevant in combat, and only steel are actually dangerous but there is very few of them. In Allomancy, only few are against directly usefull in combat, Coinshots, Lurchers, Thugs, Leechers, Sliders. Thugs are comparable to Regals, so no reason for Fused to care. Leechers are only dangerous to Fused, so again, no reason for them to specifically care. Coinshots and Lurchers were already discussed. Sliders will be most dangerous (as they could likely speed up e.g. machine gun fire (though who knows what repeated disruption to the bubble would do), but also difficult for Fused to get to. All in all, metalborn are not that relevant, and most would be used to enhance regular battle field tactics, so Fused can simply focus on those. Slider won't be nearly as dangerous if there are no machine guns around. We don't know, but I assume they could learn it. And yeah, Scadrial could counter them like that, but that is another thing they have to maintain, and have supply lines for. Already all Scadrians tactics will depend on guns, and so on supply lines of bullets, which they cannot defend well (air superiority strikes again). Roshar has competent and experienced command structure, unlike Scadrial which has zero experience with any wars. Again, that is wild misconception. Some struggled, but not all, and most didn't beyond first few battles. Conversely, you want me to belieave that generals with no experience in warfare, of any kind, will somehow be able to immediately utilize all the tactics and knowledge we have in IRL after century of guns in warfare? Scadrial will stumble before they figure out all the nifty tactics you can use. On top of dealing with Invested fighters, something they never had to before? Scadrial is barely aware of Investiture (though Ghostbloods might share that knowledge), and have no way to interfere with it. And Surgebinding is wildly different from a lot of Metalborn powers, they never encountered anything like Focused Ones or Husked Ones. Or Division. They had little reason to adjust core formation, it was still mostly effective when combined with Fused to break lines. So...all of your arguments about how Rosharan forces will get slaughter by machine guns will apply to only a fraction of the conflict? What happens after then? It is called artillery in WAT. Even so, it still not completly new, so it is in fact comparable. They won't be quite as surprised by artillery, since they are already familiar with two similar tactics. And bombardment will be new to Scadrial (Basin at least). Heavenly Ones stab Radiants with Raysium spears to drain them, and they have to leave them in wounds. Why wouldn't they do that with aluminum spears, since Raysium is rare that not all have it? It is laughably bad AA gun, artillery aim takes seconds, Fused and Skybreakers are too fast for it. Either Fused or Skybreakers under one Lashing can reach that gun in 13 seconds, artillery takes about that time to aim. They would destroy them before they would fire first shot. Those would be more useful, but it would take time for Scadrial to adapt. First strike on Elendel would let Fused capture the walls (because there are not machine guns there), or at least some sections. Which would open corridor into the city for any subsequent attacks. Constables are not soldiers. And you need months to train conscripts even with guns, months during which Basin has 10000 actual soldiers. German soldiers had 2-3 months between consription and deployment. And because of low population of Basin, their army size will top out at ~500 000 or so. Train which can be rendered immobile by Fused and Skybreakers at will, by destroying train tracks. Basin has 400 miles in diamater, Fused and Skybreakers can cover that in 2 hours tops. Lucky that Roshar already has armies in the hundreds of thousands already trained and mustered. The WOB does not imply it would drain them of light quite fast. While lodged bullet would be problematic, the body can still heal around it even if the bullet is aluminum. Unless the bullet is in something dangerous, that will be survivable. Plus, Heavenly Ones stab Radiants with their draining spears, and even after several seconds of being actively drained plus trying to heal the wound, they still have Light left. Source? @Qianweilian It wouldn't stop healing, Radiants being drained were still kept alive by Stormlight. And likely it would not stop Surges being used, since you are just shaping already present Investiture, not summoning new one. But even if it did stop Surges, Fused can simply punch or stab Leecher, they are far stronger. To clarify, I am not saying current Roshar would take Basin in like a week, but they have a lot of advantages over Scadrial. Scadrial's main advantage (guns) is also something that Roshar can relatively easily steal from them or copy with Fabrials, whereas Scadrial won't magically get Fused or Regals. Storywise, there is a reason why Brandon is holding Roshar isolated from rest of Cosmere, first by Honor's bond now by timewarp, and it is not because Roshar is weaker.

Power-wise keeping Everstorm fully intense over the entire continent is easily within scope of a Shard, much less di-Shard. Shards can create entire planets, single storm, even as large as Everstorm and powerful as Highstorm is orders of magnitude less power. The simple reason to let it weaken is that he does not want to kill his population, only have them in subservient position. He would be forced not by lack of power, but by his own goals. Also, few notes on Scadrial and Rosharan tactics and military Fused are familiar with artillery strikes (using Focused Ones) and bombardment (using Heavenly Ones and Skybreakers). This is demonstrated in Shattered Planes battle and in breaking of the naval blockade. Aluminum is not used on Roshar to kill Radiants by the Fused, only to counter Shardblades Scadrial as of end of TLM lacks AA guns, currently all the have is artillery pointed up, with range circa 620 meters straight up. Elendel military has total 10 000 people, that is it, and they are by far largest city. This suggests several things: Rosharan side will be surprised primarily by things like rifles and machine guns, artillery won't be new to them from tactical and strategic stand point. Aluminum likely does not block healing to such an extent that wound inflicted by aluminum weapon would be deadly. Fused explicitly use Raysium spears to get around healing, despite the fact that aluminum is much easier to obtain. What likely happens is that while aluminum is in wound, it won't heal, but Light within Fused/Radiant will keep them alive. Shallan after all lived even with arrow lodged in her head, which also couldn't heal. Scadrial is unprepared for aerial combat and its implications. One, they simply don't have suitable AA guns, artillery will be next to useless against any fighter planes, much less Radiants or Fused. Two, Basin's AA guns have far too short a range, 620 meters is very low. Three and most damning, Basin put their 'AA'-guns only on the perimeter of Elendel. As if planes couldn't simply fly above them and descend within the city. Basically, despite having six years (BoM to TLM) to plan for air incursions, their planning is stuck in 2D siege thinking. Scadrial has severe personnel disadvantage. As of end of WAT and TLM, Basin likely has less than 15 000 army personnel in total. That comes to ~4 soldiers per 1 Fused, which is a curbstomp. Single army of Odium had 40 000 Regals, and there were multiple theaters. From that we can conclude that while Roshar will be surprised by some things Scadrial can field (machine guns, rifles), Scadrial will also be caught off-guard by things Roshar can bring to bear (aerial combat and bombardment), plus is severely lacking in manpower.

While true, he is present enough to enforce everstorm, and use ti to grant light to those who ask. So he is monitoring it to some extent. Also, if we start bringing in other Shards, we have to ask ourselves how will Autonomy exploit situation on Scadrial? And we know they will, since that will be large part of plot in Era 3. So i think we best leave them out of it.

That is likely. Frankly it is well within power of a Shard to have Highstorm-level Everstorm across entire continent, and there is no other Shard in the system restricting him. I'll still assume he can only intensify it in small areas to err on side of caution, simply because that is something certain from evidence available.

Half a jar of Dor is about 10000 BEUs. Stormlight is sufficiently investiture dense that sunlight on Canticle is directly compared to that, and based on Nightblood consumption rate, Radiants do easily move in the range of hundreds to low thousands of BEUs. So yeah, few bags of spheres do likely have comparable Investiture to half a jar of Dor. Combine that with the fact that roseite without link to Investiture is extremely brittle, whereas Shardplate is nearly unbreakable even without Stormlight, and I would say that Roseite golem does provide a good baseline for resiliency of Plate. And thank you for correction on the fact it was not machine guns. Not true, Set did it only with the help of Avatar, and they are only considering trellium-ettmetal bombs, not full on nukes. We don't know how will the things change, see how Roshar changed in only 10 days. So I won't speculate on how Basin will develop technologically, especially since they are already developing much slower than Sazed expected. So I will only compare Roshar at the end of WAT and Scadrial at the end of TLM. Yes they do have to compete with them. WW1 plane had average speeds of at most 140 mph, Radiants and Fused are faster than that at 200 mph (and those are Rosharan miles). So planes will be slower, less maneuverable, and larger targets. On number front, Roshar has hundreds of Skybreakers, and comparable number of Heavenly Ones. Scadrial has zero actual planes, and they are at least decade away. Production wise, they won't outnumber Rosharan air units anytime soon. US produced 15000 planes in WW1 over 4 years, and that is with population 100 million. Basin has one fifth of the population, and would not be protected (since until they actually start producing planes, Rosharans can do whatever they want). At most they would produce few hundred per year. There were few, but vast majority of planes used in WW1 were bi-planes that didn't have aluminum construction. And they don't use pure aluminum, but aluminum alloy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7075_aluminium_alloy) as aluminum is too soft on its own. Since the alloys use for planes are at most 90% aluminum (less than duralumin), they likely won't be as resistive to Invested arts. And again, Scadrial won't have such planes for ~15 years or so, whereas Roshar has Fused and Skybreakers now. WW1 planes turn much slower than any Surgebinder, and don't accelerate continuously. Plus, they are much smaller targets, like 20x smaller (on surface area). AA guns are not nearly as effective, otherwise air superiority wouldn't be a thing. And importantly, they aren't everywhere and are dependent on supply lines to get bullets, which are vulnerable. Ok, thanks for correction, To that i will only say that Roshar can produce anti light - light bombs much more easily, since they're can produce their own Investiture for them. Set had to abandon their plans for using them to deliver bomb, I doubt they will be as functional as you expect. Ettmetal-trellium bombs require gigantic electric currents, you won't be able to fit appropriate generator on a small rocket. Ettmetal-trellium bombs are rather difficult to miniaturize. None of these have any deep understanding of Hemalrugy, they are slightly beyond where TLR was. They cannot create new Hemalurgic construct, and they can only spike out powers. They have no idea how to transfer those knowledge to a completely different species, much less that species possessed by Cognitive Shadows. Different species have different bindpoints. Oracles won't help, knowing your future is useless in targeting spike, Atium will help, but then you have to choose, produce more Atium or develop bombs? Because you need Trellium for both, and that is limited. I must have missed the part where either Dalinar or Melishi spiked someone mid-combat. This example is completely irrelevant. Spiking someone mid-combat is a big deal, literally only examples we see are guided by Ruin. So no, mid-combat spiking won't happen. Similarly, key component is the fact that Scadrial is unable to get stuff into Cognitive realm, there is only one perpendicularity, and it is not easily accessible. Yet I don't see you discuss that key issue. I ignore the time dilation, because taking it into account is impossible. We cannot tell what will happen on Scadrial in the meantime, and speculating on their relativ development is dangerous. I.e. in TSM, which is about 2-3 centuries into the future, Scadrial and Roshar are near peers, despite Roshar having ~80 years less time to develop. Is it because Roshar is much faster in scientific endeavors? Or because Scadrial got slowed down? Or because Roshar started as far more militarily capable? We cannot answer any such question with any certainty, so I won't engage with them. I stand corrected. Eh. No they are not. You need to pull trigger (i.e. have thought) to shoot a gun, which still takes time to propagate. Hushed ones release body immediately, plus likely have improved reflexes due to being Invested (Radiants do, even on second and third Oaths). So no, shooter won't "outdraw" Hushed one. And one bullet won't be enough, they are still Fused and heal. Shooter would have to hit gemheart, which would be quite lucky shot on teleporting target. No problem, it happens. Aluminum bullets won't break tension, they don't interrupt powers. And it is important to note, that Scadrial does not actually use pure Aluminum bullets, but some alloy. We have yet to see how that interacts with Investiture, since e.g. duralumin is regular metal as far as resisting Investiture goes, and that is ~96% aluminum. I'd say so. All three of those are much more Invested than any Awakened clothes, and are metallic. So they are starting as more resilient and have much more Investiture to boot. Also, Investiture does shield living things against damage even on relatively low levels (as seen in TSM), so heavily Invested item might be similar (being Invested does count as 'alive' as seen again in TSM). Plus, half-shards are much more resistive, and they likely use Tension, since they use Radiant spren in making, so would be comparable to Focused Ones. It was...against stationary targets. Accurate artillery requires knowledge of terrain, and literally calculated firing solution. You won't be able to do that against moving target. Sure, you can use multiple to just blast whole areas, but then you create juicy target for e.g. Skybreakers or Heavenly ones to bombard. No, they cannot. Today maybe, with computer assisted targeting, but WW1 ones? No chance. You don't use artillery against moving targets (unless they are slow moving). Air superiority isn't everything, if there are other facts that prevent it from being effective. On Scadrial, those factors are not there. As for ground units, Roshar has more of those by order of magnitude. No they cannot, they are still limited by present metal, that limitation will always be there. G-forces will apply to Coinshots and Lurchers as well, and those are not Invested to heal any damage caused, nor more resilient. So again, Coinshots and Lurchers are inferior to Gravitation Surgebinders in all situations, they have less control over direction and magnitude of acceleration and they are less resilient. Three. And they need weeks to regenerate only when killed by Shardblade, otherwise they can just create new body. So Scadrial literally cannot put them down, because they lack Invested weapons do that. Artillery won't say they are obsolete, when they spawn right next to it. How do you aim at something that appears right behind you and immediately grapples you, like Lezien did to Kaladin? Guns won't help you at all, Hushed Ones by their nature turn any engagement into hand-to-hand one, and there they have massive advantage. Yes on Kandra. No on Seekers, Lightweaving is quite, and so far detectable only by white sand. You would use Fused to break weapon placements, then send in Regals. Stormform should be especially useful, with all the metal from guns. And you would equip them with e.g. half-shards, or some armor. Their carapace is already quite strong, even Warform has carapace comparable to steel plate, Stormform carapace is stronger, and Direform stronger than even that. Steel plate IRL is strong enough to stop even modern small arms. So Regal armor won't stop machine gun fire, or rifles, but hand-guns likely yes. You don't need them everywhere, just send them to breakdown weapons placements, and places where Scadrians are dug in. Or use Deepest Ones. Roshar has Blackthorn, likely the best 'living' strategist and tactician in Cosmere after Mink. They would adapt relatively fast. Scadrian would also have to adapt to fighting Invested warriors, something that is completely unknown to them. See how poorly Azish did, and they had some knowledge and practical experience. Single Windrunner of 3rd Oath would be revelation on par with new Mistborn appearing, and we saw how Mistborn tore through regular Mistings. They would be just mowed down by machine guns. That is before the fight in Azir started, one where Fused did adapt rather fast, and that was commanded by Abidi (who was quite insane). They first tried strong push, that nearly succeeded. After it was repelled by Shardbearers, they switched tactics to slowly getting control of the dome, by building their own building. When that was not proceeding fast enough, they sent for more Fused, and for a Thunderclast. So they had two tactics, use Fused to break from inside out, or if that fails, have Thunderclast to break the dome. And they succeeded. So they pivoted tactics several times. I am sorry, but that is rather large misconception about WW1. You don't have to be military genius to realize after one engagement that running at machine gun without fire is idiotic, and general in WW1 did know that. However, on western front they got stuck in trench warfare, where often the only way to make progress was to push against e.g. machine guns and artillery. They did those because they didn't have other options for progress. But Fused do, they can send in Husked Ones or Masked ones, or Focused Ones. Or use Skybreakers and Heavenly Ones to destroy artillery and machine gun nests from air. The only way this would happen is if somehow this became a trench war, but very nature of Fused prevents that. You don't get stuck in trench if you can easily send troops beyond enemy lines. Roshar is also capable of creating such bombs now, and much more easily that Scadrial. Plus, unlike Scadrial, they will have easier time delivering them, thanks to air superiority. Well, they did take century longer than expected to discover radio, so they are proceeding about 2/3 as fast. That would put nukes nearly 70 years away. They also seem to lack full theory of electromagnetism, which would put their physics more in-line with 1880s. And yes, quantum physics is very much needed for nukes, along with special relativity. Retribution still controls Everstorm, he could intensify it. While true, Scadrial is not using pure aluminum for bullets, likely lessening this effect. Fused also get Light from Song of Prayer, this likely still functions. Plus, the entire discussion so far ignores Fabrials. How about AoE painrials? Combine field effect of suppresor with painrial (optionally use aluminum for directional effect). Drop this on Scadrian positions, and you have them out of combat.

It is more difficult to leech actively used Investiture, so we can't say if leeching grenade could shut them down like that. And at this point, allomantic grenades are about as very rare, so you would not have them on every battlefield. Right now we saw more Focused Ones than Allomantic grenades. Steelpushing is completly useless against Plate, it cannot even penetrate wooden shields. Guns, again we saw Roseite golem, and that withstood machine gun fire. Plate is going to be comparable if not better. And Desolations have Fused like Focused Ones, who are quite powerful and Thunderclasts, which can easily account for dead 4th Oath Radiants. Sunlit man is at least ~1 century in the future, likely 2. And as of TLM, Scadrial lacks all of the knowledge to build nukes. Frankly, Roshar is actually closer, since they are already on track to discover quantum phenomena. But they don't have them yet, and they are explicitly quite slow in developing. And those planes are still far inferior to just a Windrunner. Depends on how much. Single spike worth was unable to destroy more than a room. Plus they don't have any easy means of delivering the payload, they don't have rockets. Scadrians don't have that level of knowledge of Hemalurgy. They barely understand about bindpoints in humans, and you want them to do that on completely different species? And how would you do that mid-fight? That won't happen. That is why i explicitly ignored time dilation, that renders the entire discussion pointless. Or more precisely, it would only allow situation where Scadrial tries to attack Roshar, but Scadrial won't be able to get large forces there as they don't have easy access to Shadesmar. Gemheart that was cracked by Shardblade, and nothing else so far. I think Fused will be fine. Husked Ones would be especially problematic against any force rellying on guns, since they would simply teleport right next to them. Thank you for the calculation, however you neglect the fact that for penetration depth, momentum is often better for first order analysis. Weight of WW1 rifle/machine gun bullet is about ~12 grams. Its momentum would be p = 0.012*744 = 744.012 . Sigzil + Shard weight at about ~80 kg (they are tall and reasonably muscular). Their momentum is p = 80*74.4 = 5952 Also, your energy calculation is off KE = 1/2mv^2 Bullet KE = 1/2*0.012*744^2 = 3321 J Sigzil KE = 1/2*80*74^2 = 219040 J So the Sgizil has 8x the momentum, and 65x the energy of a WW1 machine gun bullet. So the bullet would certainly not penetrate, nor damage any organs (which would be easily healed) or gemheart. Further, such strike to the head as Sigzil did would not be deadly with a gun (I hope i remember correctly it was to the head), as Focused One would simply heal it. And head is the least protected part of their Focused Ones body, strike anywhere else would be far more difficult. Also, from Shardplate/Half-shard vs Shardblade interaction, we know that Invested materials are more resistant against non-Invested materials than Invested ones. I.e. if there is active Investiture in Focused One (likely is), they will resist non-invested strikes even better than they do Shardblade strikes. As such, Scadrial lacks personell weaponry to kill Focused Ones, they won't even hurt them much. Artillery could likely damage them, but hitting human sized target with WW1 artillery on purpose is...not likely. Chinese civil war had casualties unsustainable for Scadrial. Vietnam war had dense jungle and Afghanistan difficult mountaines terrain, both of which made it difficult to hold ground. Basin has neither of these advantages. Very early AA guns that would trying to hit constantly accelerating target (very different from plane at mostly constant velocity), that is smaller than any plane. Wax in TLM is somewhat worried about Malwish ''planes'' and those are much larger, slower and fly lower than both Radiants and Fused, those AA guns would not do much. Do explain how Lurchers and Coinshots would dominate at lower altitueds? They are far inferior to Mistborn, and Mistborn are inferior to anyone with Surge of Gravitation. They would be dropping like flies, and unlike Fused, they won't get reborn. Even in corridors, Gravitation is still superior to Coinshots and Lurchers (at least Radiant version). It can accelerate in any direction, with any acceleration, neither of which Allomancers can do. There is no situation where Allomancer is better at flight. Fused would have more of a disadvantage in corridors, but they can choose not to engage and simply drop rocks on any such buildings. Or invite Thunderclast. Or send one Husked One to hunt them down in corridords. Or Masked One to cause chaos and steal their weaponry/ammo. While yes, Fused would have more difficulty adapting their tactics, their tactics would do pretty well. I mean, Lezian would slaughter anyone except Miles in Era 2, they simply have no way to counter someone like that. Plus El is quite open thinker, so they could still be fine. Or they could leave their tactics to humans, who would be more adaptable. And that changed once Fused started leading them. What modern tactics? Basin has never fought anything even approaching a war, they have zero experience. Malwish do have experience, however they lack knowledge of how to utilize metalborn in any large numbers. No it wouldn't. The Azir parts clearly showed Fused adapting their tactics and not just mindlessly sending people to a meatgrinder. It was still a meatgrinder battle, but that was due to the chokepoint. If there was machine gun fire or artillery, they could simply send in Husked Ones to break the weapon placement (similar to how Lezian was used in RoW to break formation on the stairs), or drop stones on them from up-high, or send in Thunderclast (like they eventually did with the dome). Fused are not as idiotic as you are potraying them to be.

Doubtful. After what we see what Taln can do, in much weakened state, I would say Heralds hit far above any gun. They are stronger than even Shardplate, and that is already 20x over human. Nale tosses Kaladin in Plate like he is nothing. Such punches will carry more momentum and more energy than nearly any gun. In addition, Roseite can take machine gun fire, and that is at least comparable to Living Plate (both being made of heavily Invested material). EDIT: (couldn't stop myself ) Scadrial does not have nukes, that requires access to Trellium (non-Scadrial shardmetal). At most they have ettmetal bombs. Scadrial does not have planes, Southerners have invested flight machines (somewhat more advanced than what Roshar has). Scadrial does not have Lerasium, they don't know how to create it (likely due to lack of Intent). Southern Scadrial has medallions, however they are much more limited than we were lead to believe (see Wax's comments in TLM). But can still act, like provide Warlight, or determine where and how Everstorm functions (like its removal from Azir). If Retribution wanted, it could concentrate it wherever Scadrians appear. Scadrians would face immortal, unkillable Fused, in-addition to some Radiants. And if we are considering united planets like you seem to, then Roshar has all of the Radiants + Urithiru + Unoathed. And now Radiants can move freely to other planets. In scenario with united planets Roshar wins simply due to Harmony being unable to act, unlike Retribution, if we ignore rest of Cosmere. If not, then both Shards are off the table, but Retribution is capable of actively providing his followers with Investiture, something Harmony is unable to do. Couple hundreds of full Radiants + thousands of Fused + Warlight on demand = very difficult to kill army. Battle of Shattered Planes in WaT showed how outclassed most other worlds are at the moment. How would Scadrians kill something like Focused Ones? They are nearly impervious to Shardblades. Combine with Unmade like Dai-Gonarthis who could Elsegate forces, or Windrunners who can trivially move at 200 mph while transporting troops, and Scadrial would have little chance. To summarize: For united planets, Roshar has following advantages Air superiority (Windrunners and Skybreakers) Investiture superiority (Warlight availability , plus Invested soldiers on Roshar end are much stronger and have large numbers) I'll note that we saw Warlight in gemstones in RoW, and there it didn't have any issues with leaking from Gemstones faster than Stormlight Far superior mobility (Elsegates and Windrunner transports) Logistics (Soulcasters and ability to manifest in Shadesmar) On Roshar, they have Everstorm Scadrial has Better long range weaponry Scadrial would be hard pressed to use their advantage, as Roshar would have full air superiority, which is basically all you need to win. Combine with Radiants, Fused and Regals and you have all you need to win. But that is just united scenario. More realistic scenario, is much more complicated. Scadrial consists of at least 3 nations: Basin - which is politically unstable have access to metalborn (circa 20 000 of all metalborn together, of all ages. Battle ready would be at most ~5000) some knowledge of Hemalurgy (Ghostbloods), but that is not all that useful (you trade more troops for fewer) Malwish - freshly unified have access to medallions, but lack metalborn Maskless ??? So there is political division that could be exploited. Roshar is comparatively more unified, but as a result lacks Radiants (outside of Skybreakers and Dustbringers). However, those Radiants are somewhat weakened by their flawed philosophy, so very few will have Plate (if any). There is about 2000 Fused who are battle ready however, and that is probably the greatest advantage Roshar holds. 1 v 1, Fused would take Metalborn guns included (some like Husked Ones or Focused Ones would be basically hard counter to any guns), so Scadrial would have to primarily rely on strength of regular soldiers. However, Roshar has far larger population, and Singers (primary forces to be used) mature about twice as fast as humans, and Regals are better in all physical attributes. So Scadrial is outnumbered, enemy has better mobility (even without Radiants) and is stronger. So I would say Scadrial still loses. Final analysis would include the time warp, but that basically renders this discussion moot.

I think it was due to Honor not having a vessel, and so lacked proper Connection to Physical Realm. It still had some, as it's power suffused Roshar, but not enough to stabilize Perpendicularity. But I do agree it is not fully clear.

New information being revealed is most certainly not a retcon. We never had perspective of Tanavast or Honor itself, only third and second hand accounts. So even without the previous mentions alder provided, it would not be retcon, merely new information. If we had previous direct accounts from either Tanavast or Honor (or even Cultivation) that Honor the Shard/Power cared about intent behind the Oaths, then it would be retcon. We don't, hence it isn't. Why not? 4th is about accepting that protecting everyone is impossible and that Windrunner will fail, second is about striving to protect those who cannot protect themselves. There is no conflict, 4th does not stop Windrunner from trying to protect everyone, it is personal realization and admittance. "I accept that there will be those I cannot protect!" is the Oath, nowhere does it state however that Windrunner would stop trying to protect. There are no oaths Honor would not like, Honor is literally just about oaths. It does not judge the oath just that it exist. See the about quote from Stormfather. Radiant breaking Oath is not Tanavast's offence, so no he would not lose Shard early. The Power quite explicitly is angry with Tanavast for breaking Oaths Tavanast made. Separately it also generally dislikes people breaking Oaths, hence its unwillingess to be picked up.

I also liked the reveal. The destruction of Kharbanth felt like relatively cheap shock value moment (which admittedly did shock me) that was very out of character both for old Taravangian, and for TOdium as well. The reveal at the end therefore felt natural to me.

That is a really good idea, and in WaT Aux does seem like he would be in support of that, with how he seems to grow to admire Kaladin, and envies his and Syl's relationship.