Trusk'our

Inspired by mine and @Frustration's talk about Ghostblood mindcontrol tactics, I had an idea. Allomancy has been described by Brandon as being comparable to waves that lap at the outside of someone's soul. There, they can influence the individual and push or pull on their emotions. If there are cracks in the Spiritweb, those waves of Investiture can squeeze in and whisper into the actual mind of the person. And if the cracks are wide enough, the Allomancer may even be able to dominate the other's personality and will. Normally, this isn't an issue. It appears that the standard Spiritweb simply does not open itself up enough to be influenced that way. However, we see that powerful emotions can be strong enough to Snap people, and trauma cracks open the Spiritweb even more. To me, this suggests that Emotional Allomancers controlling people is largely a matter of power, not fundamental inability. Just like how you can shove on metals in a person's body with Allomancy, you just need an unreasonable amount of force. If you have enough raw Emotional Allomancy, it should crack open the Spiritweb, probably causing very real damage in the process and exposing their Spiritweb to greater control. But if mind control or brainwashing is all you seek, you're in a good position. Now, to address the largest counter argument- if it's a simple matter of raw power, why couldn't Ruin or Odium or Harmony do this? They have functionally infinite power. I don't believe we've actually seen a Shard with that level of freedom yet. Odium had some serious restrictions placed on him by his oaths with Honor, and Ruin was constantly being countered by Preservation's power- which had an even greater Investment in the humans trying to be influenced by Ruin (though spikes opened humans up more and stappled on a greater Connection to Ruin, letting the Shard supercede its rival). Harmony struggled with any form of action and Autonomy fiddled with his abilities further, possibly not only via Trellium but also more directly. Another way to look at it is to ask: if the Shard was free to do so, why exactly couldn't it control a Spiritweb? Just crack it open manually and they're good to go. I mean, Hemalurgy can do it pretty easily so there's precedence for it. Rounding back to my initial idea, I don't think this would be an efficient process by any means- Steelpushing on a non-metal portion of a humans body will require astronomically more power than on a simple coin, just like how it's cheaper to spike someone and then Soothe them, but if you had the raw power I think it's possible to wear down and crack open a Spiritweb. It also may require specific Intent or multiple uses to work. But say a Rioter and a Nicroburst decided to work together and stomach full of zinc to burn, I think they could pull it off on someone and directly hijack their autonomy, at least temporarily (since the cracks aren't being artificially held open by Hemalurgic spikes and since their mind's baseline isn't being weakened in the same way some constructs like Koloss are, they could probably choose to break free after a period of time).

You could even make a fun connection to Valor's draconic nature since they can use their natural power to affect people's emotions. Kind of like how Cultivation was probably inspired to give boons as a reflection of her draconic lineage.

I think it would also be useful for:

Could be, since we have a reference for that in the Spren. I guess if you wanted to do a system without Spren or Spren-adjacent beings you could still have a general cultural thing in the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms, where the collective is still influencing them (similar to how Returned's appearance is influenced by the society's standards that they're in).

Personally, I would assume that Hemalurgy would block bloodborne pathogens as long as they were transferred through where the spike is being implanted- the Investiture in the spike shields from other bacteria, viruses, and other nasties, and so should presumably protect from those too. It probably would not keep you safe from transfer through other places though, and given how messy the creation of Inquisitors is I'd be surprised if most didn't have some bloodborne diseases from the half-Skaa they murdered (though pewter and gold certainly helps them resist the effects when they want). As @JustQuestin2004 said though, more Investiture in general will let you resist disease in any form though, so there's that too.

We don't have any true idea what Valor's Intent is yet, other than her name. I'm going to throw out my best guess, that it deals in some way with hardship and overcoming it, proving yourself through it. Simple courage feels a bit off, since Odium is actually pretty well aligned with courage (given Taravangian's experience with heightened emotions drawing the Shard to him). In other words, being valorous in the face of trials. Under this reasoning, a hypothetical magic system aligned with Valor could work through D&D style methods, where the bigger the dangers you face the more power you're granted for having defeated it and you slowly power up over time. Fighting might be a niche example though. Perhaps you could prove yourself through other hardships, and the more strenuous the trial the more Investiture is gifted to you by the system (with a particularly heavy focus on Spiritweb cracks caused by stress and trauma).

Thanks But yeah, the book is structured in such a way that it can be confusing at times (and occasionally contradicts itself, albeit it's really only with the lore).

Lol, it was Inquisitor yesterday. New one is fairly fitting for this scenario.

Oh yeah, that's right. I keep gorging myself on so much Atium that I forget just how old and shriveled I am.

What was the old Shard culture like compared to now?

Dang. I hate movie adaptations.

Alright then. As a Mistborn, I'd be a super mobile, highly stealthy (copper, tin, pewter, iron/steel), and have an incredible amount of raw force at my disposal if I have the metals (stomach full of steel and iron plus some duralumin). As such, my main tactic would probably be to fly into enemy territory under the cover of the Mists, use copper and steel to determine where all the viable metals were, then use a sack full of metal pellets to blow the place to smithereens with a duralumin Push. If I can wreck their equipment (such as their more fragile airships) then they won't have the forces to compete with my allied forces. What's more, after I use a duralumin attack I can immediately pop up a speed bubble, eat some more metal, then steelpush away into the night with great speed (also using duralumin). If specific targets need to be assassinated, it's unlikely I can get into whatever bunker they have. So, I'd cheese the whole process and duralumin Push the bunker from outside (bringing a large metal anchor to smash into the soil if no others are expected to be in the area- or maybe just Steelpushing with duralumin above the thing, shooting myself away in the process), destroying it and killing everyone inside. Much safer than trying to sneak in with enemy Tineyes and surveillance systems. The thing about fighting such an enemy is that they're not that hard to fill with aluminum bullets in a head-to-head confrontation. As Invested forms of durability go, pewter is not that amazing. However, if they're smart and ruthless they won't give you that opportunity to begin with- they have the tools to be an extremely mobile glass cannon. Running headlong into a battlefield to be pelted with shrapnel is just inherently unwise when they're so much better equipped for the alternative.

Vasher still had some Investiture by the end, enough to reach the First Heightening. Szeth ran completely out of Stormlight and Nightblood began to consume him directly. He had no issue sheathing Nightblood after receiving another hit from Dalinar's Perpendicularity, or normally when he still had Investiture from Spheres.

Isn't that the planet Heavenly Father currently resides on?

Nah, we're plotting with Saze against Saze when Saze goes evil.

I'm imagining I don't have the meta knowledge of his assassins. They'd probably just kill me after I'd made my decision, or if I was lucky Jasnah would be sticking around (as we'd be having a "chat") and she could use her Radiant powers and soldiers to keep me alive. I may not trust her, but it's not in best interest or nature to let an ally die.

That's a fair point. Harmony tweaked some things to make them true breeding and intelligent. However, Inquisitors also can breed true and their offspring could have "complications". I'm imagining as of right now it's because their anatomy has been rearranged to accommodate their spikes, which reflects on their sDNA and such changes could be passed down as well. As of right now, I'm leaning in the direction that if you can manage to get a construct that can breed, it will pass some things down in a more diluted form. Not Invested Arts, but other things attached to the Spiritweb.

The problem for me is that there are multiple issues with not doing so. Not only is my kingdom rigged to lose all of its major ports if I don't join- which will cut off its primary source of income and cultural significance- but the super creepy old-man god said to my face that he will burn my kingdom and its people down in order to conquer it if I don't accept his terms. And I find it hard not to believe that on some level. On the other hand, he is very obviously evil and will try to harm me and my people's wellbeing in the future. It's just in his nature. People like him, especially those with power, will not seek the wellbeing of those they dominate in the long term. All and all, if I'm actually me in this scenario, I think I'd choose not to join. Not because it seems like the smart thing, at least the the relatively short-term, but because it's the right thing. I don't really trust Jasnah after she'd been revealed to have written up plans to murder me if I became a liability, and we'll need to discuss that and work it out afterwards, but I know for a fact that joining Taravodium is bad morally. And I'm going to have to lean on my personal faith in God to help me and my kingdom out after I choose not to join, because it's just not the right thing to join him, no matter what his threats are now. It will be way worse in the future for my people if I take the easy route now I'm sure, so better to handle it now while we've still got some Alethi buddies around.

As @NameIess said, you won't see a lot of Hemalurgically stolen sDNA pass down to decendants. However, we do know that some things get passed down. Koloss-blooded people are a direct result of true Koloss breeding true, and while they're mostly human they do have some distinct changes made that are reminiscent of what their parents got from their spikes (continual growth, extra potent physique, skin tone). So some things must pass down, but it seems like Allomantic and Feruchemical potential does not. Personally, I'm assuming Invested Arts don't pass down to a Hemalurgist's offspring because the Investiture systems being hacked into aren't actually tied to Ruin, so Ruin can't easily grant access to the vanilla system- only the pieces ripped off and held within the spikes. Changes to basic attributes are probably more viable because they're something Ruin's Investiture can mimic in future offspring's Spiritwebs, or maybe if the "base" Spiritweb in a Hemalurgic construct is altered and it's not just the stappled pieces of Spiritweb that are being factored into the new Spiritweb it would explain why some things pass down and others don't. In short, some things do get passed down, but other things don't. We don't exactly know why yet.

Radiants gain greater and greater efficiency with their Stormlight as they go up in Oaths, increasing their effective power. In fact, that would allow them to do some pretty interesting things not otherwise possible. This makes me think- is this how Shards and their Vessels work? That the more in tune they are, the more efficient and powerful they become despite having the same pool of Investiture to draw on (might even be what we saw with Taravangian when he accepted the truth of wanting to conquer the Cosmere and the Shard of Odium appearing to bond more deeply to him). It would be a big deal in a Shard vs Shard conflict. Maybe that's one way Odium or another Shard could kill some of their competitors- pushing them into situations that cause a misalignment between the Vessel's morals their Shard's Intent (much like with Tanavast), weakening them until they can be brute-force destroyed by your own, technically equal power.

Hypothetical scenario here. A single Heavenly One, upon the latest return from Braize has finally come to the conclusion that they cannot possibly stomach going into battle again. They're so worn after millennia of bloodshed that they've become broken inside. They sweep down the the Valley on one of their patrols, seeking the Nightwatcher or even Cultivation herself to seek a boon. They ask to be taken from Odium's reach and allowed to live, but to live away from all the strife and death. My question then is, can this be done? Honor was able to take the Heralds and remake their Surges that Odium had granted them, even using the process to further bind Odium's influence. Could Cultivation replace the Fused's Connection and Investiture in such a way that Odium couldn't directly take retribution upon them? Personally, I'm leaning toward the idea that it could be done.

I see what you did there *wink wink* So, we know the Mistborn isn't just attacking in the political leaders, but is actively attacking and disrupting the battlefield itself. I'm going to assume much of the damage they do is through espionage and assassination. If so, we can use that to our advantage. First, we're going to need more information, then we'll use that to set up an unfair trap and beat them in their own game. We're Malwish. We don't have the same cultural stores and historical accounts of Mistborn, so we'll want to obtain as much as we can from our (presumed to exist) agents in the North. We especially examine old Hazekiller tactics and see what we can take and what we can adapt to our modern technology and the new metals. We'll want to push the Mistborn to attempt an assassination on a particular military leader so that we can rig it in our favor. In addition to aluminum firearms, we'll want Tineye-disrupting tools (loud noises, bright lights) that can blast them when they enter the target's "home" (obviously we'll put up a front, maybe use body doubles to make it truly seem like they're there to all but the most trusted few). Also, rig the place with C4 and aluminum shrapnel. We'll need a method of extremely precise detection to tell when the Mistborn enters. I'm not sure exactly how, but we can put our engineers in charge of that. When the Mistborn tries to kill their "victim", we unleash the explosives. If they survive (such as cropping up a speed bubble and avoiding the main blast, maybe with a pewter-duralumin hit to boot) we have a dozen Uzi-wilding psychopaths that we don't care about charge in and gun them down. Barring that, the stunners come into play should they try to escape and our backup force (one we care about a little more) does their best to hit them with nets and bullets. A little unhinged, but as a Malwish politician, I think it has a decent shot.

Jasnah had serious trouble getting back the the PR in WoR, so I'd imagine it's a similar scenario. More Investiture of any type in a location of thins the barriers between the Realms, so it should be easier to Elsegate between them. I believe Ishar had been using his powers- probably in combo between being a Bondsmith and an Avatar of Odium (assuming that's what taking up the Well of Control does to you)- to boost all the Honorbearers' power. They did also have much more experience than Jasnah and Szeth always struggled with it, so it's possible it's also a skill issue on top of that. I imagine they can go faster than speed of light, but it probably requires some kind of extra step. Most likely taking a more roundabout path through the Spiritual Realm (which I'm sort of assuming they don't do normally since there is a speed limit), since time and space don't exist there.

I think it's either because of personal morals, like considering the pain of mortals living so long or the idea of such longevity being unnatural, or it's because most don't think they need it. They have nearly infinite power, after all, and most could probably just smite whoever they felt the need to. Beyond that, I see few ways an army of Cognitive Shadows/ageless people would help a Shard. Odium's and Honor's agents are an exception, since they cannot act as directly. But if Odium sent his army to kill Tanavast? They'd be obliterated in a heartbeat. Not super useful.

I am ready to post another convoluted theory. We know that when a Spiritweb possesses another's body it can have some complications. For example, highly Invested beings will actually change their host body to match their Identity- Yumi did this with Painter's body and Fused, while less Invested and therefore more limited, can do this to some extent. But, why are Fused more limited in this regard? Shouldn't they just be able to breath in more Voidlight over time, healing to match their true appearance? They're not limited to a super finite supply of Investiture when they need- which we know from the Pursuer they can do via the Rhythm of Prayer. I hypothesize that this limitation is actually because the body itself is resisting the change. The body has its own Identity that is actively pushing against the Fused's own, much like TLR's body trying to match its true age while his Atium Feruchemy pressures against it. This could also explain why Painter's body reverted to normal after his bond with Yumi was largely severed despite the fact that, according to Design, Painter is about as Invested as the standard person on a minor Shardworld (there's a WoB that contradicts this in-world statement, saying that Painter became Invested enough to become a Cognitive Shadow after dying. I suspect this is more due to a lingering Connection, maybe like a Sliver? Or its just a misremembering by Brando Sando, as even he said he'd need to double check). His body was already pushing for that state, so Painter didn't need any extra Investiture, either from healing or just a baseline increase, to reestablish his form. We also know that bodies can have their own Intent. For example, a Surgebinder can subconsciously breath in Stormlight to survive, and Pewterarms can do the same with Pewter. Together, these form the basis of my theory: the body itself has a Spiritweb, part of the whole of a person's Spiritweb and not a truly distinct entity, but you could classify it as a notably different section that can be torn apart from the whole. Basically, my thinking is that this bodily part of the Spiritweb is a bit separate from the conscious part of a person's soul. For example, Ashravan was braindead but was still technically alive. That extra Investiture that gave him true sapience and personality was lost when he received his head trauma, and it was replaced with another, very similar piece of Investiture by Shai in order to restore full cognition and will (albeit with a different being, not Ashravan himself). I think this could be similar to how Preservation needed to add a little extra piece of itself when creating Scadrians- that "higher" piece of Spiritweb that bestows sapience is probably not directly tied to the body- though it will remember its configuration and try to match that since that's what the person knows. This separation between the body's Identity and the soul remembering and trying to match it might also help explain why Cognitive Shadows appear to be capable of modifying their appearance more than others. They just need to change their perception since they don't have an anchor like true mortal individuals (except Fused, and they don't have the raw power to overwhelm the native Identity of their host body's lingering Spiritweb). You could also argue this is just a manifestation of being highly Invested though, so there is another plausible avenue. Last thing I want to bring up, I believe the body having a kind of basic Spiritweb could also help explain why Fused cannot just bond a corpse and repair it with Voidlight- they need that extra Spiritweb piece to help anchor them to the PR, since they no longer possess it naturally and Odium doesn't want to expend too much power on them. So TLDR: I believe that in the Cosmere the Spiritweb consists of two primary parts, the body's basic Spiritweb, and the higher piece that allows sapience and greater free will.