Benkinsky

oh I forgot that, though I think I'll stick with that for now. By "sideplot" I meant mostly that I think it won't be the main characters themselves working mainly on the Rythm discovery science. We've already had one book where that was the MC's focal point. The Era 3 MC's might be Ghostbloods so Ghostblood Research will be present, but again I assume that's a B plot until it's done. You're right that they couldn't actually threaten Discord, but that's not necessarily what I mean. I imagine situations like - Discord pulls someone into a vision like Odium does, and that person manages to hum the Rythm of Harmony to keep themselves from being fully convinced by what Discord is explaining. - Discord tries controlling someone who has a pair of Hemalurgic spikes, and that person manages to fight against that Influence by attuning Harmony. (Marsh? Spook?) - as mentioned before: Using Anti-Discord-Investiture to harm constructs that Discord is controlling, or: - if Discord instead of Harmony changes something about how its Investiture works, say for example that a Feruchemist couldn't access an unkeyed Coppermind anymore, then maybe humming the Rythm of Harmony while using metal would influence the Investiture enough to follow the old rules rather than the new ones. - or genuinely just shocking a Manifestation of Discord momentarily, flashbang style, in a crucial moment. Doesn't need to hurt him, just distract him for a second. We had bombs in Era 2, say someone makes a kind of flashbang with the Rythm. There's things where keeping the Shard distracted for a few seconds is enough, take for example the opening of an Oathgate or something akin to that in relevance. These are just examples, not predictions

Hi everyone! I recently reread RoW, and when I was talking to a friend the other day I formulated a theory i now wanna post here more polished. I'll try to keep it structured, can't promise. Anyway, on to the topic Short version of the theory: I believe that Mistborn Era 3 will feature a sideplot about the Ghostbloods aswell as Kelsier working to discover to recreate the Rythm of Harmony, possibly to a) prove the difference between Harmony and Discord tangibly and b) to create anti-investiture weapons to combat Discord if necessary, for example by being able to kill Kandra. I believe this is likely because it has realmatic parallels to storylines, in both a) Harmony/Discord and the mixing of shards and b) an opportunity for Kelsier-Marsh moments. I'll elaborate on that. Reminder of important things Navani and Raboniel discovered in RoW: Anti-Investiture is possible. What you need for that is: 1) Some sort of tangible Investiture to manipulate. (On Roshar: Stormlight, Voidlight. On Scadrial: the mists?) 2) Knowledge of the existence of Anti-Investiture and the intent to invert the Rythms/Wavelengths to create it. (there’s a little booklet written by two brilliant women detailing all this) 3) A way to create the correct rythms, either with a person able to hear them (Roshar: a Singer, Scadrial: a Seeker) or an instrument created by someone who does (Roshar: the plates created by Raboniel and her singer scholars). 3.1) I don't fully remember if this is stated, I appreciate confirmation if someone has it: You need those who sing these tones either themselves or while creating the tools to do so to be sufficiently connected to the planet in which the relevant shard is invested (on Roshar: Navani singing Honor’s Rhythm, Raboniel singing Odium’s Rhythm, Eshonai singing Cultivation’s Rhythm). This is extra interesting on multi-shardic planets like Roshar where we have three “pure tones of Roshar” 4) To create a mixed Rythm (like War or Tower or Thorns), you need people with connections to the respective shards to come to a Harmony. (Roshar: Navani and Raboniel. Scadrial, i believe, Kelsier and Marsh. See below) Reminder of hints at Era 3 topics found in Era 2: - Harmony is unstable, presumably due to an inequality in Ruin and Preservation’s parts in it. - As threatened by the Prophecy of the Hero of Ages, Harmony could also be Discord. We’ve seen the dark shadow. - While Lerasium doesn’t naturally exist anymore, Atium might be regrowing? Not sure about that one rn. - Wax’ and Steris’ Harmonium experiments created trace amounts of Lerasium, proving that while Harmony is its own thing, the combination of Preservation and Ruin is still relevant for its existence and how the duoshard works. - Kelsier has said that his goal is to protect Scadrial from whatever necessary. He has seen that Harmony is becoming unstable. He has seen how unstable Shards get himself, and other immortals aswell through Ghostblood intelligence. The theory: Era 3 will have a sideplot about the Ghostbloods preparing for the eventuality of having to fight for Scadrial AGAINST Discord by trying to find the Rhythm of Harmony in order to invert it. The prerequisites are: - Distrust against Harmony. Saze is getting worse, Kelsier knows it. Harmony supposedly respects its peoples Autonomy, including the Kandra. But we’ve seen him disregard that with Wax when “necessary”. Kelsier has reason to prepare - Knowledge about Anti-Investiture. By Era 3, I believe groups like Silverlight, the IRE, and most importantly the Ghostbloods will have a copy of Rhythm of War. The knowledge that Fused can be killed should interest Kelsier – both because it’s reason for him to be scared of death again, AND because it could be a much more practical weapon against out of control Kandra and other Hemalurgic constructs or whatever else Discord could create that “normal magic” is outmatched against. And these are both given. I will outline how I think such a storyline could look like, and maybe you see how it could fit both as an interesting story and a very hype magic-related plot in a world where the “normal” magic is mostly fully discovered already. The latter is an “issue” for Sanderson because the discovery of new forms of magic is always hype for readers (new metals in Mistborn as Vin learns about them or discovers them, new Oaths on Roshar, new Aons, new Commands…) and at this point, all 16 metals are known. So “new” elements would either have to come from offworld (other God metals, other forms of Magic like the Ghostbloods in Era 2, or new discoveries like the Malwish have shown) or be new applications of existing things. 1)1) Kelsier and the Scadrian Ghostbloods want to find the Rhythm of Harmony. After how much Raboniel argues that Navani might not be able to hear the Tones of Roshar after Humanity has lived there for thousands of years, there is reason to assume that the Tone of Scadrial is either still two different ones (Ruin, and Preservation) OR it is currently, as of Era 3, the Rhythm of Discord. Finding the Rhythm of Harmony could therefore be proof that what God is currently doing is no longer Harmony, by contrasting the two Rhythms. More interestingly, the Rhythms offer the chance to create Anti-Investiture. 2 2) They run into an issue: Most existing Investiture on Scadrial is discord-coded. Meaning already mixed, which makes things more difficult. What they would need is actually pure tones of Preservation and Ruin, which as of Era 3 are probably very difficult to come by, since even our Era 3 protagonists will have been born on Harmony/Discord’s Scadrial, and are using its version of magic, which I assume gives off slightly different tones than it did during Era 1. Now, if only there were people from way back when with strong connections to the original two shards respectively. Ideally, two people who share a connection with each other, which would make their efforts to create the Rhythm of Harmony even more narratively interesting. You know, something like: The Survivor, a Cognitive Shadow of a Mistborn made up off the old Shard Preservation’s Investiture. and Death, the last Inquisitor, a Hemalurgic Construct that was once Ruin’s strongest and most favourite single human toy. and these almost-deities are also brothers. Do you see my vision? There’s all sorts of dangers here for them: Kel might have disconnect from any Hemalurgy he’s using, like for his body, and Marsh might have to find a way to disconnect himself from Harmony to fully concentrate on Ruin in some sort. Maybe that’s Marsh in a Aluminium box or maybe that would be him burning Atium – extra scary because he NEEDS that stuff to live, literally. But imagine the potential for this storyline: the two semi-immortal Brothers, recreating the Rhythm of Harmony while the third member of the trio, Sazed, is currently haywire as Discord. While the Rhythm of Discord might be necessary to fight Kandra-Discord-Version, the Rythm of Harmony might be useful for a resolution to help Sazed snap back into it. It’s especially powerful when Marsh and Kel can prove how such opposing powers can work in Harmony while Sazed has lost the thread. Bonus fun if the character to make use of that Rhythm in some way or another is a Feruchemist. Allomancers give off a variation of Preservation’s rhythm is assume, and Hemalurgists that of Ruin. But Feruchemy is a mix, it is innately Scadrian, and it’s also the magic that Sazed used himself. A kind of “pure/ideal” version of what Sazed once was (an Era 3 Feruchemist bearing the Rhythm of Harmony) confronting the mad Discord, kind of similar to Renarin confronting Moash with what he isn’t), could be very interesting. Either for Sazed to get back to his senses orrr for a new Vessel, if necessary. So yeah basically I think the application of Rythm- and Anti-Light science on Scadrial could both be very interesting storywise (anti-investiture vs immortals for the fight against discord) AND has narrative potential for Kelsier and Marsh.

Ooh I like that a lot. accepting that freedom might mean that others make decisions you don't like. That Rlain decided to go back to the humans rather than stay with the Listeners, for example.

So. After being introduced to different orders over the course of the first three books, two of which are "special cases" (Lightweavers, Bondsmiths), Venli was the first Radiant of a "normal" order since Kaladin, and she has only sworn the first two oaths so far. "Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination" "I will seek freedom for those in bondage." We will probably see more of her in future books, which I think is cool. I look forward to learning more about the order. The other day, I wondered how close the ideals will be to Windrunner ones. Freeing and Protecting are both pretty much considered unambiguously good things, and the exceptions is where the higher oaths come in. If they are close to the Windrunner Oaths, i could imagine future oaths being things like Third Oath: "I will seek freedom even for those I hate" (something like that) yeah, I know, very close to Kaladin's. But I mean, Kaladin HATED Lighteyes and it was a big moment for him to realise that his desire to protect the weak was stronger than his hate for the privileged. Hence saving Elokhar. Venli HATES humans, for the most part, so I could very much imagine she gets a story arc where she realizes that being bossed around or imprisoned or such by Fused or Lighteyes is something she still hates more. Could be Venli helping some poor humans out from others, could be Venli helping out humans from under the Fused, something like that. Could be even more intense if its something like the Sadeas Army under the Thrill or so, where she realizes that these people don't have free will at the moment and tries to free them from that. Like, originally being happy to see humans fighting each other and then realizing its wrong still. Fourth Oath: "I accept that there are those that I cannot free" like an addict who you cannot help unless they want to help themselves, or simply having to accept your own limitations, but that feels too close to Kaladin's fourth oath even to me. Instead, how about: "I accept that there are those that need to be bound". Radically, Willshapers would need to go around and free people from prisons constantly. The fact that that apprently wasnt the case in the past tells me that nuance is part of what they practice and learn. I can imagine that that is a good spot for most Willshapers to cap out. Realizing that some people/forces/beings need to be locked up. Like the Thrill, for example. Could be extra fun if its Odium trying to task Venli with freeing the Thrill or some other powerful Fused, and in the Sanderlanche Venli reveals her Radiance with her Fourth Oath lol

Walking metal constructs? Reminds me of the Metal Men that the Sorceress had in Tress. Which is far in the future from Era 2 afaik but maybe there's some pre-versions already hanging around on Scadrial. In some cave.

I could see Dustbringer/Windrunner as a cool combo to balance each other out. The desire to protect could help make Huio more aware of the pitfalls Releasers seemed to typically step into, with their curiosity to take things apart and analyze them scaring or hurting people. Helps to have a little honorspren on your shoulder to be like "I understand wanting to understand this, but maybe do that AFTER we saved those people" . And probably the other way round too. We saw Syl struggle with some stuff that Kaladin struggled with too, like the fact that to protect his men, he had to kill Listeners who were themselves just trying to survive and protect theirs. The kind of rigid us-vs-them type thinking could be broken up with the help of an Ashspren. I assume the taking-things-apart is not ALWAYS like this for Dustbringers. And could include non-physical things. Like being able to say "I want to protect people from harm. They keep getting into situations where they risk harm, because these structures are dangerous/promote risk/etc. We should dismantle those and figure out how to make it better" be that stuff like surgeons should wear gloves or changing certain laws etc. Like, imagine two groups who keep getting into fights because idk the food distribution doesn't leave enough for both groups, so they fight. A Windrunner could come in and stop them from fighting. Time and time again. Not bad. But maybe a Windrunner/Dustbringer would take the time to ask both groups why they fight, figure out where the problem is coming from. Not that a regular windrunner couldn't do that, this is more me trying to find where the two Orders could overlap well. Plus, man, four surges. Imagine a Windrunner flying with a multi-lashing AND ignoring friction. that would be FAST

Similar thoughts here. I read Huios looking at Lopen and his insistence that he doesn't hate him as a sign of deep annoyance mixed with the hurt. Especially since Lopen is a younger cousin, I can imagine that Huio harbored a lot of thoughts in the direction of "The Lopen needs to get a wake-up slap. He can't keep walking around an dact like this, he's gonna have to learn a lesson some day." you know? Lopen hurts him sometimes, and he was kind of hoping for some consequences for Lopen. In that moment though, he managed to realize that this kind of ill will came from the annoyance and the hurt, not from a genuine desire to see the Lopen get hurt in return. He still wants to protect him. I doubt the ideal was "I will protect even those that are annoying" but definitely something like "I will protect even those that hurt others" or something.

Sja-Anat is fascinating to me. We know so little about her, the mechanics of Enlightening. From what we know, she used to only corrupt lesser spren, and now she can corrupt Radiant Spren too. Maybe a consent issue, maybe a Honor-being-alive-issue, something like that. Either way, that got me thinking of two questions I'd like to hear some thoughts on. 1: Sja-Anat's goal is a home for her and her children where they can be safe. First issue: Investiture tied to Roshar. There's other people working on that, so no wonder the Ghostbloods want to get into contact with her. Maybe it'll be that she has to stay in the Rosharan system, but what if Odium manages to leave? Can she stay behind, chill on Roshar? Or Braize, even, once that's empty? And, more interestingly: 2: Let's say for the sake of fun speculation, that Sja-Anat is able to leave Roshar. And go elsewhere, to find a new home. And let's say, for the same sake of fun speculation, that she does not just go to some empty moon with sapient life and becomes their god, but instead goes somewhere where there are not spren, but other splinters. A quick list of Splinters we know of: Spren (Roshar) Returned/Divine Breaths (Endowment) [Kind of a special case, probably. Cognitive Shadow - but not, Sprenlike - but not] Seon (Devotion/The Dor) Skaze (Dominion/The Dor) Spirits/Hijo (Virtuosity) I'd like to speculate what Sja-Anat could create together with these Cousins of Spren if she could Enlighten them. Of course, Enlightening might just be a fancy way to say Corrupt-With-Odiums-Investiture but we've seen Glys, and the Nahel Bond is an ability of Honor and Cultivation that Enlightened Radiant Spren still retain, but now it gives crazy Odium-style abilities too. So... What do you think an Enlightened Seon might be like? An Enlightened Skaze? An Enlightened Spirit? "To a seon, there is no above or beneath. There are only those we love. And we serve those we love." Seon are super Devotion-coded. No surprise. I imagine if Sja-Anat Enlightened one, they might become more independent in their thoughts, somewhat like how Skaze seem to be. Maybe more in line with what their Aon identifies, maybe not necessarily a "anti-" version of their Devotion or their Aon but more a more emotional, extended version. Seon have communication abilities, those might work through connection, and can already bond, although those bonds don't give abilities in the same way that a Nahel bond does. Still, while we might not see Sja-Anat travel to Sel (there's the whole dangerous cognitive realm and she exists halfway in taht the whole time), we have seen Seon on Roshar. It's possible we'll see Sja-Anat touch one of them. Maybe even Ala, the Seon now with Shallan. I think an Enlightened Seon would be super exciting, and maybe somewhere between a Radiant and a Lesser Enlightened Spren. Because before the Enlightening, it certainly is sapient in a way that lesser spren aren't, but it has less will of its own seemingly. Maybe similar to Dullform or Slaveform Parshmen taking forms of power, Enlightening would change the behaviour of a Seon quite drastically by expanding their mental capacities and making them more independent. Man. Imagine an Enlightened Seon-blade. Or a mix of Voidbinding and something to do with the Aon in the Seon in question. (Example: Ala means Beauty, Handsomeness. We've seen Illusion magic from Shallan (who has Ala!!) and Beauty happen with Divine Breath Returned, possibly Splinters too. I could imagine that a Bond to an Enlightened Seon Ala might give either the Seon or the bonded person the ability to change their appearance in some ways). Enlightened Skaze. Skaze are already "evil Seons", they have a range of emotions Seon don't display, they use sarcasm, have their own goals, etc. Do we want to see splinters of Dominion mixed with Odium's investiture? Might be a yikes. We have barely seen what Skaze are capable of, so its hard to speculate what Enlightening them would do to those abilities. Shame. Though honestly, with how multifaceted Sja-Anat is, Enlightening a Skaze might actually make it more chill, less arrogant/pushy/dominant. This is all just speculation though. Enlightened Hijo? Been a bit since I read YNP. They have a whole bunch of abilities once they are called/bound, so I'm certain Enlightened Hijo would have even more funky abilities. If we knew more about what Voidbinding is and what Sja-Anat would do with the Radiant Spren of other orders... ah man. This is an are that I hope other people have cool ideas for!

Ah, I didn't meant to imply there was definitive evidence. I meant to say something similar to the first WoB you quoted. My line of thinkin was All humans on Roshar (except for the Iri) are descendants of the ones from the Ashyn exodus. some humans follow something called the Passions. Which is also what Odium calls hismelf an a word the Fused use a lot. Odium used to be the god of humanity on Ashyn. Bet there's a connection. Might be the key Something like that

We've seen spren for some of the emotions in that chart. Fearspren, Angerspren, Anticipationspren... I assume the others exist too. I'm not sure if this is the right thread but I wanted to find one to add onto. I'm rereading SA atm, and in OB when Leshwi decides to keep Moash around after he killed her, she asks something like "what is your passion?", to which he quickly sais "Vengeance". Something like that, I don't recall her exact phrasing. I thought it was interesting that it happened so shortly after Moash defended the Parshmen crew pulling the cart and being whipped. He acted similarly to Kaladin in Bridge Four for a moment, similar to where Kaladin started becoming a Radiant - but for Moash, the anger at the mistreatment was stronger than the desire to protect those mistreated. Something something parallels. And then that question about "what passion?", which we know is both a very Odium thing AND a cultural/religious thing in some human cultures on Roshar. Idk about the theory that there will be a set of words/oaths for Voidbindings, I mean, Oaths are honors deal, but i could imagine that "finding your passion" is an important thing in human cultures since they brought that with them from Ashyn, where Odium was still Humankind's god. We know that Voidbinding is "a cousin to the Old Magic", and we know from the Old Magic that it works by giving you thing a and taking/making thing b happen in return. A curse and a boon. I could imagine that the "cousin" thing comes from the fact that Voidbinding works similarly. The glimpses we have into what voidbinding could be have to do with the Unmade, and a few other people. I feel like they often involve some kind of trade like that Moash has his pain and emotions taken away. Renarin has no control over his visions. Balat seems to be in pain or something when he isn't hurting something smaller. It calms him. Nergaoul/the Thrill grants you serenity and clarity, but you basically lose yourself to the battle. Ashertmarn is similar. I'm wondering whether the "void" is Voidbinding isn't a term for a thing you manipulate, like "surge" is, but something internal. A Voidbinder has a void, and feeds it. or draws from it. Maybe that void differs depending on the person, and that's those passions you seek. Rather than losing your powers because you break your oaths, you would lose them if you lose your passion. If Moash lost his hatred for the lighteyes, or Renarin lost his fear of not fitting in OR being what people expect of him (though Renarin is a special case here too), stuff like that.

"fuel" Feruchemy as in fueling the storing? I have a whole theory on how you could use AonDor to compound, but that's cheating the Tapping part of Feruchemy, not the Storing. For storing some things come to mind, like having Stormlight to heal you while you store health, stuff like that. Which brings me to a thought that is tangentially related. Wonder if you could store health and be a very effective user of the Disease-Magic on Ashyn due to that.

@Faerie BraidsI don't think you need to spoilerproof Yumi anymore, just TSM and KWT at the moment. Either way, how do you mean? Like, the Hion lines? @Dofurion honestly yeah the Mist is a great call. There was already superstition about the Mist "taking" people, though more around the Mistwraiths, and the Mist is atleast partially made of Investiture, aaand now we have the Ascendant's fields up there... a Mistspren isn't far fetched. It probably would have had to be partially Vin's cognitive shadow, or so, since she was a splinter, so we probably missed the first chance for it to exist, but yeah. A spren hanging out up there? You'd probably need to be a Coinshot or Mistborn to bond it lol

Hey all! I once made a post and then recently realized I never posted it here, sooo I'm finally remedying that. Spren and their cousins (Seon, Skaze, Spirits/Nightmares...) exist on many different planets in the Cosmere. However, Roshar is so far the only one with some truly unique Spren. I'm talking Godspren, Unmade, Cusicesh. We don't yet know what the Unmade are, but we know that the Godspren are basically 1 of Honor, 1 of Cultivation, 1 of both. And Cusicesh (spoiler for the very new KWT interlude) Now, imagine if other shards also had Godspren, and other things/entities/concepts in the Cosmere also had spren in the way that Uthirithu has the Sibling and the Iriali might have Cusicesh. Here's a few ideas I had, I would looove to hear more from other people! Sel Elantris would definitely have a Spren. Urithiru has/is one, and it's a giant Fabrial. Elantris is a Giant Aon. 100% Elantris would have a spren and I bet lots of people would worship it. There would definitely be Folklore that It directs the Shaod, and that you can sway it somehow. I'm unsure whether the ElantrisSpren would also be Devotion's Godspren or if that would be a seperate one. If Devotion could even have one anymore, that is. If it can't, there would very likely be a Dorspren, roaming around on Sel, probably changing character depending on where it is. Wait, do the rumours that the Dor is gaining rudimentary sentience mean that the Dor is becoming a kind of Shard-Spren? if a Godspren of Dominion existed, it would probably have ended up as a part of Shu-Dereth, worshipped somehow. I can imagine it being atrracted to Courts and Monarchs and other kinds of Rulers. A mythical creature associated with power and rulership, like a Lion/Dragon chimera or something. It would be a horrible omen for your dynasty if the Dominion-Godspren leaves the area of your capital. I imagine it might have an effect similar to emotional Allomancy, similar to what Vin describes feeling in the Lord Ruler's presence. Scadrial Ruin's Spren would very likely like somewhere in the Pits of Hathsin, or in the biggest most active Volcano. The only reasons for it not to be by the Pits would be because Ruin wants to hide his perpendicularity. Some kind of Fire/Ash being, think Ragnaros The Firelord, embodying a very local aspect of Ruin, the Volcanos, would make a lot of sense. While during Era 1, people didn't know that the Ashfalls were intended as something protective, they were still as iconic to Scadrial as the Highstorms are to Roshar. The Stormfather and its distant cousin, the... Ashfather? Ashbringer? Wait, that's a WoW sword. I'm sure there would be a really cool name, and a terrifying creature that it belongs to. Another thing I could imagine is that it is attracted to death, and before Marsh, is basically Scadrial's Grim Reaper. A ghostly creature who likes to follow the Kolloss, looms around before and after battles, or who just appears where people die. Preservation's Spren, in a timeline where Fuzz wasn't slowly dying, maybe in the thousand years before the last thousand pre WoA, could be similar to the Nightwatcher, residing somewhere relatively known, and maybe have the ability to "lock" certain things or aspects. Folklore would have many theories for why it can't prevent Death. Honestly, Lift's wish to not change would probably be so perfect for Preservation's Spren. There might be myths about a being like that existing until a thousand years ago, when the Lord Ruler inherited its powers. I assume the two Scadrian Shards would have a Dual-Spren too, because their pact is so important for Scadrial as a planet. Although they are the only ones who know about it, which might mean there is no cognitive representation of it. Either one or two spren, one for the pact and one for Scadrial itself, which they created together. The Scadrialspren, for lack of a better name, would have powers related to Feruchemy, since that is an innately Scadrian power and one that Preservation and Ruins children can have. Maybe there's a rite for Woldbringers to travel to it before their death and "give" their remaining stores to it, most importantly all the knowledge in their copperminds. I assume we would have seen this Spren in Era 1, with Harmony Meeting it at some point and still wouldn't have understood he was the Hero of Ages. Then, upon his ascension, he would be able to tap into all the knowledge the Scadrialspren held, or he would have gotten that earlier. Honestly, thinking about it now, the Volcanoes serve a nice mixed purpose, Preserving life on Scadrial by showering it in the scarred remains of deadly fire. I think a Dual-shard Godspren residing in the biggest Volcano on Scadrial is probably my favourite idea of these. Single Shard planets Autonomy's Spren is probably a plural, one for each Avatar? or are Pajti and the Sand Lord already kind of a Godspren of Autonomy? kind of seems like it. The way Dusk and supposedly other trappers think of the Islands, especially "Father" Patji, wouldn't surprise me for them to have Spren. Other than that, I'm out of ideas for this one, but I'd love to hear some! Ambition's Spren might be what we no wknow as the Evil. Although I have a better theory on that by now. Endowment's Spren could be somewhere on the Planet that we haven't seen yet. Like with the Elantrisspren, Folklore might confuse it and Endowment, like how Cultivation and the Nightwatcher are so close, assuming that it is the Endowmentspren that returns people. It's name would veerry likely be colour-related, and I imagine it shifting through rainbow colours like how Cusicesh shifts faces, or affect colours around it like how Susebron does. Endowment's Spren is a big candidate for the most powerful of the Godspren, having been Endowed with a lot of power, and probably having recieved guidance from her mother the same way the Nightwatcher does. Whether Endowment would genuinely teach it to return people, like how close Cultivation and the Nightwatcher are, or if Endowment would give it a seperate ability, I don't know. Maybe it would just be Nightwatcher Lite (Daywatcher? :D), just endowing you with a boon without a curse. A cooler idea than that: Awakening is an End-Neutral System, right? Maybe the Daywatcher (patent pending) could give you boons, but in exchange for a lot of breath or something else. The more breath you bring, the more powerful your boon. Some people would pilger there to exchange their own breath for something, or maybe go with the collected 10-100 Breaths of their family or village for something bigger. Basically, you become "Awakened" somehow, Endowed with a gift. It would definitely have immense amounts of Investiture/Breath to use and be the best awakener ever. The wildest idea I have for Endowment's Godspren is that it uses itself to Awaken, either jumping from (dead) host to host, or it's a Bondsmith-like Bond where you have a Breath even stronger than a Divine Breath. Whimsy, Mercy, Valor, Virtuosity and Invention I know too little about to theorize. Finally, an addition to this post that wasn't originally in it: Canticle (Sunlit Man Spoilers) Alright, that's it so far. Would love to hear other ideas for cousins of the Stormfather, Nightwatcher and Sibling

I see that. Mapping the world, exploring and giving names to everything, certainly aligns somewhat with Dominion. Man, now I'm remember the theory on Trell's Kandra being those creatures from Fjordell myth, that was such a cool theory. Ohhh those are good quotes, thank you for finding those. I'll also add this one that @alder24 found: From what we've gathered, I can imagine something like this: Whether by Ambitions design or just with how it developed, Threnodians are born with innate investiture similar to breath, just different. Ambition instead of Endowment. Regarding this difference, I'd imagine that rather than being "freely handed" their investiture, Ambition wants her humans to DO something with it. Just maybe not during life, necessarily. This investiture could become your Cognitive Shadow, and if you had good plans and aspirations, your cognitive shadow will be more inclined to do cool things after death. What that something that Ambition wants them to do is? No idea. [TSM:] The primordial religion that later influences/becomes Cazzism forms around this. The passage into death becomes an important part of Threnodite culture. This post-death project is what the "mountain of souls" is either for, or is referred to as. Maybe the "Mountain of souls" is just the representation of afterlife, but also refers to an actual group/collection of Cognitive Shadows. Now, there is one big problem: Ambition dies. Ripped apart, no mind to guide the power anymore, no singular power either. The Threnodites still get born with their "breath". Let's call it Light (which is funny, because you need Light to cast a shadow. Get it? Hehe). One chunk of Ambitions investiture gets imprinted with these beliefs, or merges with some shadows (see stormfather/Tanavast's CS), or SOMETHING else. That's not that unlikely, seeing how a widespread religion with a belief in an afterlife concept might very well manifest some version of that in the Cognitive Realm. The plan is gone. Whatever the "mountain of souls" was supposed to achieve, it doesn't know that anymore. Uli Da did. But it either still remembers its directive OR gets that from the collective beliefs: Collect Cognitive Shadows. We've seen something very similar in Yuumi. The engineers behind the Father Machine are long dead, but it still does its job, fueling itself as it does: Collect spirits. (That's honestly so close that it almost discourages me from believing this theory, because it's so similar, but let's run with it.) If Shades are the corrupted version of whatever Threnodites used to become before Ambitions death, that doesn't matter much for the mountain. It just collects. Amalgamates. More, and more, and more. For the project. For the project. Honestly, the "mountain of souls" (or whatever that refers to) goes haywire after its boss gets killed and just amalgamates everything around it in both the physical and cognitive realm? That's evil. It could very well be The Evil. I'm going to be honest here, if something like that happened to me or my ancestors before we fled the planet and traveled somewhere else, I would also absolutely make sure my children and their children make sure to do the proper rites and rituals when someone dies. Whether you left pre-Evil and just believe that to be important, or post-Evil and are terrified of something like that happening again in your new home, you have good incentive to pass on your beliefs and practices. Sounds solid to me. In an even crazier note, I also like that thought cause it could be another knot between Kelsier's story and Ambition/Threnody. There's already a lot of thoughts I have on that that I've written down in another post, so if you wanna, read that there

Hi! I hadn't know, glad you were tagged! glad to have you here too 1. yup and 2. I hadn't paid attention to those, but yeah. This is a more superficial connection, but Kiin was a ship's captain - which are priests in the Truths of the Bennet. Wonder if Elantris 2 or 3 will show us that Kiin follows some sort of spiritual school or religion that is common among sailors. If so, we should return to this thread hehe That said, from how I understand, the whole map-making thing is only really relevant on Sel since the Dor is in the cognitive Realm. I doubt that Devotion and Dominion intended for maps to be part of their magics, or atleast I would be surprised. That characteristic of selish magic is post-shard-death, I think. That said, Sazed would have loved to tell Shai about the Bennet, I bet. The Valla, I think we might be misunderstanding something here. From how I understand it, we know that the religion continued to "thrive" (that is, survive during the Final Empire) for a bit even after the leaders were dead, not that dead leaders are necessarily part of its religious/spiritual teachings. Of course, we don't know yet WHY this religion was better at continuing its activity than others. Maybe the reason for that is something we'll learn about later, and could have something to do with another shard. Maybe Ire activity is part of what created the Truths of the Bennet? Less one of the shards and rather some old Elantrian (seeing how the Ire were already off-world during Elantris and Elantris is hundreds of years before TFE) doing some research on Scadrial, and becoming a holy figure. Which wouldn't be surprising with the glowing skin and magic abilities that Scadrians don't know. And "you should make good and accurate maps" is certainly the kind of mission I would give my mortal followers if I expect to come back to this planet from time to time and know that I need maps to be powerful there. Plus, ship captains are the kind of people you want for that job. Thank you! And thank you for your very extensive research, those were a bunch of interesting WoBs i hadn't known. I still want to hold onto the Cazzi theory for now, though you make some very solid points. The window is small for Ambition to pop into Scadrial and meddle there, but it exists. Do we have confirmation that Shades only appeared after the Evil or rather after the Death of Ambition? We know from Wabreaker that apparently Awakening wasn't even discovered for hundreds of years, so while it wasn't a thing humans did, the setup for it technically already existed. What I'm trying to say is that maybe Ambition had some designs for magic regarding Death Rites of Passage to become a cognitive shadow, and since she died and was splintered, those designs mutated and went haywire and that resulted in the Evil and the shades? I think it's odd that Shades are apprently only on that continent, wonder how similar the reason for that is to why on Sel magic differs by place. Localized chunks of investiture or something like that. thanks for finding the Whimsy quote too, I agree that mentioning her by name means nothing. I mean, Ialai knew the names of some planets cause the Sons of Honor did, but that doesn't mean much either, so yeah. Sel / Scadrial certainly seems to be worth thinking about, both cause there might have been some trade there, two religions cooooould have something to do with Selish shards or atleast agents who are from that planet, aaaand cause investiture-scientists probably would discover parallels between their magic systems (cough cough read my AonDor Compounding theory cough cough). You don't happen to know where we got that info from? so we could check it again? Taldain would make sense since we already know Autonomy/Trell connections, but Sel would certainly be interesting.

Something to add to the Cazzi part specifically. u/Kingsdaughter613 pointed out on Reddit that the names of the planets in the Threnody system (Threnody, Elegy, Monody and even the moon Coronach) are names for death laments, a poem for the dead and a funeral song respectively. Which matches with the idea of Death chants well.

Hello! A topic that I'm quite interested in is Ancient (pre-Rashek) Scadrial. There are a few bits and pieces that we know, and I wonder if those are going to become relevant in the future. I wanted to open this thread to collect both a) knowledge we already have and especially b) theories based on that. So for starters, here's a few facts. Scadrial is one of only two planets we have seen that were not there before the Shattering. Scadrial was created by Ruin and Preservation together, as were the Humans on it (after the Yolish Blueprint, basically). Rashek's Ascension put a huge change to how Culture developed on Scadrial, including the almost-elimination of all the ancient Religions that Sazed documented. As of Mistborn Era 2, Rashek's Ascension was about 1300 years ago. The First Desolation and Oathpact are both over 6000 years old (or like 10 000? I'm not sure about that rn), and Era 2 is shortly after KWT. From what I can piece together, that means there were over 6000 years of history on Scadrial that we know almost nothing about. "But Benkinsky, that was before The Final Empire, and that's already 300 years back and Scadrial has moved on." I hear you say, Strawman that you are. So here's a few reminders for why we should be interested in this time: Ancient Terris could become more relevant still now that Terris Culture is more intermingled with the rest of Scadrial. Trell/Autonomy was in some way connected to one of the Religions of Ancient Scadrial. It was apprently deliberately created by Autonomy to be there for them to co-opt once she'd need to. We know that in this pre-Rashek time, Scadrial was visited by multiple other shards (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316-general-signed-books-2018/#e9386). We even have confirmation that Odium has influence on scadrial (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e6141) I wonder what else will happen relating to these visits that we have already seen hints for. Yes, the Religions Sazed documented already served a plot purpose by letting him rebuild Scadrial after the Catacendre, buuut like with Trellagism, I assume some of them might have future implications too. I would like to hear what you guys think which Shards might have an interest in Scadrial and why. We already know Autonomy was concerned about Scadrials technological development, but what about others? Let's look at a few religions we know and shards they might correspond to. Ambition: I'll start with the one religion that interests me the most: Cazzi(sm). "The Cazzi are a people familiar with death, and death chants are among their beliefs. These chants are believed by the Cazzi to help free the spirits of the dead from their corpses, allowing them to return to the "mountain of souls"." Death is part of multiple shardic influences - not just Hemalurgy. I'm thinking especially of Shades. While there is so far no proof of Death chants having magic properties, we know from RoW that tones can play a big role in some magic interactions, and we have seen multiple instances of people returning to life after death. The most prominent ones are maybe the Returned and Lifeless, both of which happens with Endowments Investiture. But we also have Nazh saying something like "you can't just become a shade. There are important Rites to that." a Death Chant that helps "free the spirits of the dead from their corpses", doesn't that sound an awful lot like a Rite for a person who died and becomes a shade? hmm? hmmmm? There could be some sort of command in the chants too. The Lord Ruler modeled the lives of the Skaa after the Cazzi. The Skaa were scared to go into the Mists because of the Mistwraiths. The people of the Forest of Hell are scared to go into the forest because of the Shades. Mistwraiths are weird not-dead creatures, amalgamations of body parts. Mountains of body, in a way. I think the Cazzi religion is connected to whatever Threnody was like pre-Evil, and these death chants are an offspring of that culture or have the same root. Ambition must surely have been interested in the CREATION OF A PLANET BY TWO SHARDS, right? That's ambitious as hell. Tin helmet on: Maybe the Cazzi religion even tells us a bit about the evil. The "Mountain of souls" as some sort of spiritual concept for a magical entity, one that gets out of hand after Ambition dies, and that's what the Evil is? Endowment or Virtuosity Two ancient religions, Dadradah and Astalsi are "branches of the same ancient religion", and Dadradah especially is "influenced by Nalthian ideas (...) but doesn't originate there". https://wob.coppermind.net/events/389-munchen-signing/#e12673 ; https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316-general-signed-books-2018/#e10923. These religions are concerned with (Dadradah) artistic expression and (Astalsi) Bad Luck and colours respectively. This leads me to think of two different shards, and the mention of Bad Luck sounds like some variation on Fortune. Two reasons why I think these religions might be more than just religions, and have something to do with actual realmatic concepts and/or shards. Endowment, though she doesn't seem like the type to be overly concerned with the rest of the Cosmere. Of course, that's now. Maybe during the early centuries she was still looking around, and that ancient religion might have been based on what Endowment got up to post-Shattering, with Austrism, Dadradah and Astalsi all stemming from this. the destinction between specific shades of colour has relevance on Nalthis for those of certain Hightenings. I wonder what the ancient religion was concerned about. Virtuosity. For similar reasons. Why Colour and Art appear in Warbreaker a lot, Virtuosity is the artist shard. Virtuosity definitely seems like the kind of shard who didn't settle for a long time post-Shattering (Adonalsiums, that is), and roaming around to see different places is an artsy thing to do. I would not be surprised if this ancient religion that Dadradah and Astalsi are branches of has something to do with Virtuosity Whimsy I'm blanking here. We know that the Set knew about Whimsy's existence, and if i recall correctly then someone noticed that while Wayne is walking around Elendel and whistling a certain tune that comes naturally to him and he has never heard before or something like that, the word whimsical is used multiple times to describe him and how he feels. if anyone knows more or could remind me what exactly the Set know? I don't really know where to go with this but it certainly seems like Whimsy is more likely to appear somewhere down the line than any of the married Rosharan or Selish shards, who were busy with each other probably. Odium We have confirmation that Odium specifically has some influence on Scadrial. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e6141. Kelsier has an irrational hatred of nobles, that could be connected. I remember while reading thinking to myself "it's weird that Ruin looses his grip on the Koloss and Steel Inquisitors when they go into bloodlust" until I read SA and met The Thrill/Nergaoul. Very similar. At first, i figured that because Odium was the shard of Passion/Hatred, that meant that this area was his domain and that's why Ruin loses power there, but that's not really how it works. Still, emotional allomancy is important for hemalurgic constructs. Maybe Odium sowed a few seeds on Scadrial? Preservation and Ruin were so busy with each other that they might have missed something, maybe not something as big as an Unmade but something lesser. Something for Odium's influence to push Scadrial in a conflict-ridden direction? I mean, either it would lead to a future foe for Odiums spacefaring conquerer army, which is great, orr it could even lead to another warring planet for Odium to recruit from once he was done on Roshar? Cultivation I doubt that Cultivation was busy with other planets when she and Honor went to Roshar, which already existed and was, for some reason, already important to Adonalsium. Then again, Cultivation is exactly the sort of intent that would lead someone to planet seeds early on for future use, like Autonomy did. Plant seeds, you say? Interesting choice of words. "HaDah is a religion from Classical Scadrial, and has been extinct for a thousand years. HaDah is a religion in the south which worships an agricultural god. Sazed gives Jed a HaDah funeral after learning from Teur that he was killed by the Deepness. The HaDah funeral ceremony involves taking a branch and driving it into the bottom of the grave next to the corpse's head, such that once the grave is full, only the tip of the branch breaches the surface." That's all we know about HaDah, and I personally doubt that it's one of the likelier religions to become relevant, buuuut if it did I bet it would be because of Cultivation. We know Odium and atleast one other shard have had some influence or interest in Ancient Scadrial. That could just be Autonomy, who is also confirmed, but I think it won't be. The combination of the ONLY (so far) shard-made planet soon after the Shattering paired with two shards who are VERY busy with each other definitely invited some attention. What do you think, who else might have had an interest in Scadrial, and in what way?

A bit ago I thought about Hemalurgy a bit, realizing that while it's quite scary in theory, most magic systems have some kind of built in limit. Physical space for Selish Arts, Bonds for Aviars and Spren, etc. But one of the few "magic systems" that seem to have little limits like that is: Shades. Now, it seems thematically fitting that two of the most gruesome magical parts of the Cosmere seem to be able to work together. Work together how, you say? Well, here's the thought I want to put out there: I theorize that you could become functionally immortal using some combination of Hemalurgy and Threnodian Shade mechanics. I don't fully know how it would work, but: - becoming a Cognitive Shadow is the "easiest" way to become kind of immortal, atleast by age. - The one Shade in Silence's Basement is a special case, different from the ones in the forest somehow atleast. Plus, Nazh mentions that becoming a shade does or atleast can involve rites and rituals. We have also seen the shades on Canticle, so there seems to be more sentience and such possible for a Shade than the ones in the Forests of Hell exhibit. - Threnodians seem to have the "ability" to turn into invested things after death. Shades on Threnody, Sunhearts on Canticle. This is what you could spike off them. I'm not sure what the smartest order of operations would be, but I think there is definitely the possibility out there for some mad person to do one of or a combination of these things: - Make a spike from yourself, one that can work as a blessing. Die to a Shade's touch. Have someone spike the Shade you turn into. - Spike a Threnodian to earn the ability to become a Shade after death. Do some stuff like putting your memories into a breath and storing that, die and become a Shade, get the breath given to you. And become an ageless Shadow Monster with more awareness and memories. I'm sure we'll learn more about the interaction between these magic systems because the Night Brigade canonically uses both. I would be interested to hear what you all think the best ways could be to become a sentient Shade. I think the idea of Breath being involved has a lot of merit, personally. We saw from Hoid that you can store Investiture in breaths and not just in copper, and Ruin and others talk about Cognitive Shadow Kelsier as being not Kelsier, but his Memory and memories hanging around. The Admiral can somehow command Shades around. We've seen two similar things: Susebron wordlessly awakening and giving commands, and the Cinder King commanding the Charred. I would not be confused if Night Brigade soldiers get invested with some mix of Ambitions Investiture, a command, Hemalurgic spiking and whatever else that makes sure they hang around as Shades that listen to commands from the Admiral.

I hope this is the right forum for this question? If not, I'm happy to be redirected. In short: I study English and History in a Master of Education programm, and will write my Master's thesis in the winter semester. Since I'll be spending a considerable amount of time obsessing over a topic, I thought I would pick one I'm happy to obsess about anyway: Sanderson's writing. Together with my professor, I picked three possible ideas, one of which I am coming here for. I was hoping that the collective brain of the 17th shard could help me pinpoint some storylines, chapters, interactions, etc. that would fall under my topic, so I get a better idea for what I'm working with than I could have myself, so I can figure out if this is the topic I want to persue. What is the topic? Broad: Hierarchy in Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere to better explain: I will ask and examine questions such as How to Class/Race/Caste relations work in the Cosmere worlds? , How are these hierarchies structured? , how are hierarchies kept up/enforced, where and how can they bend and under which circumstances? , how do these hierarchies affect... ...the story? the character? the world? How does magic influence the hierarchies in the Cosmere? Is it an enabler, a tool, a subverter, etc? I'll give a few examples of what I'm already thinking of including: The Skaa and the Nobles in TFE era Scadrial. a "bred" worker race. The revolution, uprisings. Inquisitors as enforcers, including punishing those who venture outside of their class like Vin's father. Vin's bastardness. Blood-relations being responsible for magic potential. Zane, a bastard, being used by Straff because of his powers as a Mistborn. Atium as a means of financial control, which also makes House Venture the most powerful. Lighteyes/Darkeyes on Roshar. Kaladin, the model minority character. Kaladin stepping out of line with "and for my boon" and being punished. Lighteye-supremacy as the result of Radiant ancestry. Magic - the Knights Radiant - subverting the caste system. Kaladin's family in Hearthstone and Roshone. The slaves and bridge crews. I don't have very many specific scenes in mind for this part, sadly. "Parshmen" on Roshar. Well, yeah. another Slave Race. Which we later learn is magically forced on them. Yikes. Here, "Shen"/Rlain especially Singer society vs Voidbringer society (once the Fused are back). The "lower" ranks literally providing bodies for the Fused. Also not sure how much there is to write about other than that aspect, though. Elantrians. Magic as a random picker of who gets to be part of the immortal elite, but also Elantrians giving back and providing. Dilafs hatred for them caused by expectations for their reality-bending abilities. Sel: The hiararchy in Fjordell. We don't have many sources here sadly, but The Chain is definitely an interesting aspect for how hierarchies are utilized and justified. Emperor's Soul: The hierarchy being reinstated/propped up because the ruling class uses supposedly forbidden tools (Shai's magic) Nalthis: Giving breath to the gods to keep them alive in the hope of getting something in return one day. These are ideas of what I could include that I came up with. If you can think of other aspects, storylines etc. that might fit the topic, I would be very grateful to hear about them! Ideally, I would have 2-4 books i could focus on in the end, for exmaple The Final Empire and The Emperor's Soul and [This is where i hope to put whichever SA books has the most stuff on my topic], but I will include examples and parts from everything that has anything to do with my topic. Thank you for your help!

that looks insanely cool! Very well done by the artist!

Oh, that's a very intriguing idea. Basically "sacrificing" something to get the constant stream of investiture. Only, Allomancy would be a bad candidate methinks, since Allomancers already have access to investiture wherever they are as long as they have metals. But say, for example, AonDor (and I'm not just shilling this because of my own pet Compounding theories) or another Selish Magic like Bloodsealing or Soulstamping. Something that needs Investiture to work, but doesn't have access to that. Or Surgebinding outside of the reach of the Highstorm. Anything that's limited in this way would be interested in an alternate source of Investiture-fuelling. "Storing" weight or speed or sense or whatever but instead of storing those attributes, using that Investiture to power your end-positive magic sounds cool. Though, If i understand Feruchemy correctly, you would really permanently sacrifice that, as you said. Even Scadrians have very little innate investiture, I believe. We don't have a unit yet, don't know the amount of breaths that is worth, but like, you usually get that back with Feruchemy later. No doing that with Surgebinding of Bloodsealing, so that weight/speed/whatever is just gone.

Koravelliumium? Avastium? Koravelliumium? Koravellium Avastium? We know the naming conventions, but adding -ium to someone named Koravellium feels funny. Anyway, I can see skills. Age - Ruin is a pretty obvious connection. It's natural decay of your body. So what would be natural cultivation? Hm. Growing, honing. The large part of skill aquisition happens in young age, like language learning, and later in life skills have to be trained much more actively (and by you rather than your parents and teachers). I could still see something like Growth, whatever that would be. It might mean that you lose proficency at skills while storing, to later basically cheat years of training. If it's not just physical, you might behave like an emotionally unstable teenager for while while storing. But I like the idea of storing skills, like, Kaladin storing Growth would not know how to properly use a spear to block attacks, only stabbing randomly. While a less trained Soldier tapping Growth might be able to fight a Shardbearer, knowing how to strike in certain angles with their weapon even if they've only had it for a few weeks.

Hell yeah! Exactly, right? Endowment is already the Shard that most freely gives away her power. As in, you can just leave Nalthis with a breath, there's no condition there. You were endowed with it. It's not a huge leap to imagine more being possible. For example, connection. Say there's a Ghostblood or 17th shard agent who was born on Nalthis. They want to go out into the Cosmere, someone else from the Organisation has to take their place. They manage to store their Connection to Nalthis in a breath, and give it away to the newcomer, so they'll be able to speak all the languages and correctly interpret Gestures and stuff.

agreed. Wakefulness as a Feruchemical power is similarly not that interesting combat- or epic-fantasy-wise, but sooo useful for everyday people. Though the flowers of edgli might be easier to cultivate or farm than for example Atium. Nalthis being basically the source and inventor of Antibabypillen would be such a funny bit of lore. Minor Nitpick here @bmcclure7 what is Terizastium supposed to be? We can speculate on a few of the other metals being called Koravelliumium or Avastium, Edglium, Bavadinium, and we know Sazedium is called Ettmetal on scadrial. But who is Terizastium? Honor? My speculations for some: Tanavastium: I wonder if you can "store" something like Conviction/Faith/Oaths. Feruchemy already has Determination, but I wonder if you could store an oath, break it, and then tap again without losing your bond. Otherwise, I speculate Tanavastium to be something like self control too. Mercy's Godmetal storing Empathy sounds crazy, and plausible. Having Inquisitor-like warriors who store their empathy is freaky. If they're unkeyed metalminds, it could even be a torture method to force someone to feel all that. Bavadinium: either something like independence, where you're very in need of help and guidance while storing and don't feel constrained at all while tapping it, but that's quite boring. I would love if it was similar to Aviars and A-Copper, like storing Connections to shards and higher powers, basically becoming invisible, independent in a way. And later you can tap it, to increase attention on yourself.

There's also Rall Elorim. Did we know about it already by WoR? We still don't know much, we just know it's the City of Shadows, which sure sounds like it could have created a secret society. Especially if the theory about Ba-Ado-Mishram being located in Rall Elorim is correct, it would make sense that the old Knights Radiant created some kind of secret group to keep that secret, similar to the Sleepless protecting the Dawnshard.