Benkinsky

hehe oooh that's super interesting. I'd kind of forgotten about the Illumination he does "to" Moash. But yeah, Windrunners have more lashings than surges, so I could see the Glass Window Thing as resonance/hybrid manifestation! that's interesting! We were introduced to Lashings before we learnt what Surgebinding was too, so that could be what happens here too. I love this line of thinking, it sounds very plausible to me! With Honor's and Cultivation's surges as "natural" (read: natural physical) forces, Odium's (Passion!) surges could be the "natural mental" driving forces, aka Passions. That actually makes a lot of sense. And Sja-anat as transforming the cognitive also tracks! Green Lantern Style? I'm imagining the "empty" body of the Voidbinder sitting/slumping somewhere while they direct the Mindnight Body, kind of like an Avatar in Avatar (the blue long people one). Or, for the Naruto Watchers, like Shikamaru's Shadow Control. Whether that's transportation or HardLightweaving, you'd have a construct that you control. The big question is whether damage to your Midnight Body would hurt you, but I'd assume not. same here! I'm enjoying this thread a lot! I'll toss another one into the ring: Ashertmarn - Abrasion. If the Surge is the physical manifestation (stuff can slide aka is not inhibited), I can imagine the cognitive manifestation of that being similar to soothing/rioting, which Ashertmarn is very similar to. Not only are Cultivationspren the spren closest to Cultivation, and The Heart of the Revel feels like a big opposite of that, regressing to animalistic/hedonistic impulses, but that also tracks for the surge. Ashertmarn makes it so you give in to those impulses, your inhibition is gone, you "slide" into it. I hope I'm getting across what I mean. Definitely feels Cognitive to me, Cognitive Abrasion. Yeah, fair point. Then again, there's a big theory that Shalash, the Lightweaver is going to be very much not a Lightweaver in her book (Dustbringer, i think, is the common theory), so I feel like if any order gets to do the red herring for Unmade, it's Lightweaver. Your argument makes a lot of sense though. Plus, a Lightweaver is also our current example of somone with two spren. Who knows if she or some other Lightweaver won't end up bonding both an enlightened and a "normal" radiant spren. oh and there's two tidbits of thought that I have anyway, and you've given me two things to quote that let me drop them here : such a cool name. And lowkey something I think we might get in the future. I can't help but feel like we'll end up in the Odium "wins" timeline, aka War/Conquest/whatever you wanna call it. Like the Heralds for their orders, the Unmade as the pinnacle of nine orders of Knights Enlightened, as humans and singers embrace Voidbinding. Maybe not like all of humanity and singerdom, but a big chunk. I'm 100% here for Knights Enlightened. The Knights are dead, long live the Knights. I really really like your argument that Rayse didn't make bondsmiths not because he couldn't, but because he chose not to. That's my headcanon since i read that argument for the first time. However, I also wanna use this opportunity to ping another thought: (and if you've read my Ba-Ado-Mishram theory you might suspect what it is) Why can Odium grant powers that are of Honor and Cultivation, but not ones that are of Honor alone? Because Cultivation either can't or won't stop him. Let's rephrase it: Odium can grant powers that are of Cultivation. I think it's wrong to assume Cultivation is in opposition to Odium, atleast not as much as Honor was. Rayse was scared of her, and we always hear of her by Honor's side, but the one doing big plays even beyond his death is Honor. Cultivation is... there. Ever since SH, I've been sceptical of shards. All shards. Ruin was so obviously evil, yeah. But two things should be kept in mind post HoA. 1. the well known "Ati was once a kind and generous man" and 2. Preservation loved the Lord Ruler. Seriously, if Preservation could've chosen, TLR would've just ruled forever. Because the Shard's intent overpowers anyone after such a long time. Whether you follow the theory that Koravellium Avast is setting up Dalinar and Lift to succeed Tanavast and her like she did with Taravangian and Odium or not, the point I'm trying to make is that Cultivation is dangerous too. She wants growth, change, evolution. I think she's not inhibiting Odium's use of the surges because she either can't or doesn't want to, both of which are because she's Cultivation. Especially since Tanavast's death. If Stormlight Archive 5 or 10 ends with a giant Alliance getting ready to go on Space Exploration, with Knights Radiant and/or Knights Enlightened and/or Knights Revived (Adolin/Maya) together, I don't think Cultivation would be in opposition to that, she'd be part of it. Rant over.

so I had a thought, not sure if this was brought up here yet, but maybe we can use this thread/the pairing of Unmade to Radiant Orders in a different way. The Unmade don't align to the Orders 1 to 1. But we know a few other things: Voidbinding is said to be, in some form, of the Unmade. There's ten Orders with ten surges, minus one because Adhesion is of Honor. Maybe the Unmade can give us fodder to speculate on other Enlightened Orders though! We have Enlightened Truthwatchers with what I'll call Enlightened Lightweaving, which gives Renarin Future Sight. Which is Moelach's thing. Maybe we shouldn't be assigning Unmade to Orders and their surges, but just to one surge. (going off of Truthwatchers, this would be the secondary surge of some order, if we want to look for orders) Could go two ways, of course. Mapping the Unmade not to the known Surges but to "Voids", maybe some of you guys are interested in thinking this one through. Alternatively, basing it on the surges. Let's take Enlightened Transportation, which might be similar to what we've seen the Defeated One do. If Enlightened Lightweaving becomes Futuresight because that's one of nine "Void-surges", then one of the other 8 Unmade could give us a hint of how that looks. I assume that might be Re-Shephir, and an Enlightened Elsecaller might be able to create Midnight Essence, only not for them to control for a distance but to "bodyhop" into, or control pretty directly. What do you guys think? Is there some speculation to be had here?

does it not? I think it still tracks. First, you're introduced to "so there's 8 normal metals and then there's additional special ones", and later learn "ah, there's actually 16 and then there's additional special ones", and those are the God metals, which Atium was and Gold wasn't. Atium mistings are weird, but knowing Preservation specifically made that possible tracks. Now I'm wondering if there are like Raysium Mistings and stuff or if Harmony would have to create that too

true, it does track more for the Allomancy thing. Though Atium Mistings are kind of number 17+, aren't they?

He might've been, but then again that's why it would be a good hidden hint. The theory about "Unite" as a Dawnshard also hinges on how it isn't wrong about either of the applications. You, like Dalinar, could read it as "Unite the Highprinces", which would track, or as "Unite the Human Kingdoms", which equally makes sense. Or is it Unite the Radiants? Unite the Heralds? All of these make sense in Stormlight Archive, but they could make as much sense coming from a Dawnshard. The same could be true for Persist. Was Preservation referring to (just) the Mistings? maybe to both, Could've been a Backup. And like with "Unite", "Survive the Pits of Hathsin", "Survive the Encounter with the Inquisitor", "Survive Death", all of these would make sense if they're not from a Dawnshard but from Preservation or Kelsier's mind, but also if they're from a Dawnshard. Though personally I'd be intrigued how Preservation managed to sneak a Dawnshard onto Scadrial without Ruin knowing.

I don't think so! we saw Azure's blade in Shadesmar, but Nightblood not yet. Maybe we'll get that in SA5

oooh, I like that theory. The "Nightblood contains Ruin" WoB is one of my absolute favourite tidbits that we don't know the full volume of. The idea of a "primal Connection" i like a lot. Iirc, that's kind of what Investiture did at the Shattering. All the Investiture was there before, and at the Shattering, the raw investiture "got asigned" or "aligned itself" - or whatever process that was - to the Shard most fitting, in 16 equal parts of infinity. Which raises the question if you could do that again, for example by creating a Intent aka Command that's both so invested and so clearly aligned to another Shard, that it attracts that Shard somehow. Of course, the "claim" that a shard had to Investiture at the shattering was much stronger than a mere 1000 Breaths could be, but Endowment was involved, aka God's own divine Endowment, so I could imagine Ruin getting connected to Nightblood in some way. And yeah, if Azure's blade was made with a command like "protect in the face of adversity" or "help those that need help" or something windrunner-y like that, something could have happened similar to that with Valor. Hm. crackpot theory: Obviously, those don't have to be connected. Valor is the only one of the recently revealed shards that we know a Gender for, maybe Valor being a She is part of the reason Vivenna views her blade as female while Nightblood is neutral. We've seen a lot of "mother" and "father" between Spren, Godspren and Shards on Roshar, maybe Azure's blade is viewed as female because she's a sort of "daughter" to Valor

why thank you! How lovely! I have a train ride today, I'm looking forward to getting up to date on the discussions here!

okay yeah, true, same here in Germany. Still, i wonder if the double hyphen has more to it than just "it's unique"

So last year I had some thoughts on Azure's blade, and like with my Thaidakar theory this one also deserves an Update post-Row, only the update will be a correction, not just an extension. Prepare for some rambling: The theory: Azure's Blade was awakened using Valor's investiture. 1. The Nightblood book will feature Vasher and Vivenna visiting Valor's shardworld during their travels. 2. Either Vasher or Vivenna who learnt from him (Or Ysteel) will there awaken a new blade and use Valor's investiture to do it. See my old theory on my thoughts on the mechanics of this, but this prediction/theory is less about Investiture mechanics and more about, uh, themes and story. So, why do I think Azure's Blade is Valor-fueled: - We've seen the major shardworlds and magic systems already. I don't have the relevant WoB on hand, but I remember that that's the status. The only "major" magic system planned to maybe be introduced still would be Aethers, we've seen the other big ones already. We've had Valor namedropped in RoW, so I doubt it will be a shard that gets its own Novel to show off the world. What better place than the Established-characters-go-worldhopping-novel to introduce us to those kinds of worlds? - Azure's whole story in Oathbringer is so Heroic. The way her men talk about her, the way she defends this seemingly hopeless situation on a planet she isn't from and doesn't even really seem to plan to stay on. You could argue "yeah, duh, it's a fantasy novel, there's always Heroism there" and you'd be right, but I think this isn't just a coincidence. - I think the key to understanding why Azure's blade is so different from Nightblood is that it was created with another shards investiture in it. I'm a big fan of grouping shards not into "good" and "bad". In this case, I think the distinction we need to be looking for is "involved" and "distant/apathetic", if that makes sense. What I mean by that is that Endowment, for example, gives you your breath and the rest is up to you, which is in line with her role/intent. On the other hand, the Knight's Radiant have a lot of checks and balances included in their magic system + their oaths, which line up with Honor. I believe we see a hint of Valor's character in Azure's blade: Does that remind anyone else of Mjölnir? The weapon investigating the wielder, pssibly checking to see if you are "worthy". - We don't see the signature black smoke or any of the symptoms both Vasher and Szeth displayed when Nightblood fed on their Investiture when Azure used her blade. The black smoke seems to be because is Nightblood is filled over-the-brim with Investiture, but the other symptoms are It eating Investiture. Azure's blade didn't display that. I think this is due to two factors: 1. a different command, more refined and well-crafted than Nightblood's. 2. some kind of inherent difference, that leaves less to the Blade itself. The Blade's sentience seems to be more rudimentary than Nightbloods, whose sentience might stem in part from the character of the Investiture it was awakened with: Endowment. Nightblood is already the result of using one magic system to create an hommage to another, Awakening to imitate a Shardblade. Whose to say we can't go one degree further, Awakening with Valor's investiture to imitate a Shardblade. The combination of a more refined command plus the nature of Valor's investiture result in a blade a lot less volatile. We've seen Azure preparing to Awaken in Oathbringer. Nonetheless, the Vivenna we see in Oathbringer is a lot more confident and valorant (pun intended) than the Vivenna at the end of Warbreaker. I doubt we'll get a whole novel dedicated to Valors world, so I think we might expect to see it feature in Nightblood (book), with Vivenna learning some more things there and maybe gaining access to the resident magic system too, which might have a lot to do with/result in her motivation to a ) find Vasher and b ) help in Kholinar. What do you think? Crackpot theory or reasonable expectation?

yeah, I think "unmaking" might be corruption just like a Rosharan would see Allomancy and say "storms that's some weird Surgebinding" I'm not sold on the name change, and I'm not sure when Hessi wrote, so yeah that might put a dent in that part of the theory. Then again, why would Kelek call her Mishram?

Preface: I'm definitely not super sold on this, but the thought came to me so I wanted to put it down in the best place to get other people to either shut it down or upgrade it) I thin Cultivation might have been involved in enabling the False Desolation. By which I don't mean she wanted it, but that she had something to do with Ba-Ado-Mishram. (TL;DR/theory in a few sentences at the bottom) The facts that lead me to this thought: - Ba-Ado-Mishram's ability to grant forms of power and Voidlight in the False Desolation was new, somehow. She didn't do that in previous desolations. - She's the only Unmade with two hyphens. Yes, it's time for a bit of morphology. She's also referred to by Kalak as "Mishram". This might be refering to what BAM was before being Unmade, and maybe Unmade Mishram was Ado-Mishram before becoming what she is now. As dumb as this sounds, I think the second hyphen might indicate involvement by another shard. At first I thought "hm, but who? Cultivation I guess, because she's the only one left", but a few more pieces of information might play into it. BAM gained new abilities somehow, which she didn't have before. These include being able to create Voidlight. Cultivation is able to do something similar. She both a) created a magic system together with Honor that uses Honor's Investiture but not hers and b ) gave Lift the ability to fuel her Surgebinding with Lifelight anyway. BAM was something before she was unmade. I like the idea that Odiums truest/signature Surge is Division, so I'm postulating that "Unmaking" isn't exactly a unique process, but Odiums Version of "changing an invested Being" or something like that. Point is, Odium isn't the only one who can change Spren, but Unmaking is just his version. (For exmaple, if Ruin were to do something similar, it'd end up with a Spren weaker and "less" than it was before, due to Ruin's nature) Another Shard could be able to do that too. We know that Ruin isn't the only shard able to control someone with spikes, so it can be argued that just like Future Sight and SpikeControl, any shard - whose intent wouldn't inhibit that - can corrupt or change investisture. Cultivation is training the Nightwatcher to understand human's better, for a reason we don't really know. This hasn't always been the case, but is a fairly recent development. (I can't find a source for this but I remember it being this way, I'd welcome any WoB or quote that either proves or disproves this). Cultivation, like Honor, was a god of the Singers and Spren before they swapped with Odium. Singers and Spren were affected by Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment, but at that point in Time Odium was the god of only one of those groups, not both. Cultivation's plans have involved an Unmade on-screen once already. Cultivation is said to have excellent Future-Sight, and we have not heard from Sja-Anat that she was in contact with Cultivation, so Sja-Anat leading Odium to Nightblood (whom Cultivation might also have had a hand in creating) was either something they planned together or, more likely, part of Cultivation's plan. From a Meta Standpoint, the dead Shard Honor has been much more present in the fight against Odium than the alive shard Cultivation so far, and I think that that is not because she's inactive, but because her plans (as we saw with Taravangian in RoW or Dalinar in OB) are slow and long. Ever since Secret History, it's clear that Shards aren't easy to group into "good" and "bad". Preservation was good in comparison to Ruin, but would've been happy with an enternity of the Lord Ruler ruling Scadrial. Cultivation herself acknowledges she can't always control what happens to things she helps grow. To put it meanly, a Cancer cell is pretty aligned with Cultivation's intent, growth for the sake of growth is growth nonetheless. Now, to put the theory into words: I think Cultivation changed the Unmade that we now know as Ba-Ado-Mishram somehow. In a time of Odium's Absence/occupation with torturing Heralds, Cultivation "enhanced" (her version of the process which is "unmaking" for Odium) the Unmade, granting her new abilities in the process. As one of the godesses of Spren and Singers and Roshar itself, this process made Ba-Ado-Mishram more connected to those than she had been before. Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment didn't create Deadeyes and Slaveform because of what she was before being Unmade, but because of the new part of her that was of Cultivation. So, the timeline of BAM would be like this: 1. "Mishram", whatever she was before being unmade. Kelek refers to her as this in a respectful/appreciate way, possibly because he knew what "Mishram" was before, 2. "Ba-Mishram", one of the 9 Unmade for the longest time. 3. Ba-Ado-Mishram, now changed once more by Cultivation, granted new abilities. The "ado" in her name comes from "adoda", meaning Light- A kind of pseudo-sibling, with both Odium and Cultivation's touch in her. She starts the False Desolation and her imprisonment taints all the other beings touched by Cultivations presence on Roshar. The Nightwatcher probably became Cultivation's "main project" only afterwards. Whether the false desolation was an intended or unintended consequence, I have no idea. Whether BAM wanted to betray Odium or even usurp him and came to Cultivation because of that, or if Cultivation "hijacked" BAM, I'm unsure. What do you guys think? Tinfoil hat theory, or might there be some merit to it?

I just wanted to pop in and say that this is an excellent thread and very enjoyable to read. I made a post mapping the Unmade to orders recently and this one is a lot more thought out. I love the thought process of the "inverted" surges.

I'm super interested in the Iriali, and very happy about this thread, so first and foremost, thanks for making one. - I've also played with the Idea of the One matching up to a shard. We've had multiple instances of beliefs on cosmere-unaware planets lining up or having parallels to Shards. The Iriali religion could be a red herring, but I personally believe that for now we can treat it as an interpretation, but not a full transformation, of the truth. - The idea that they are all splinters is interesting. Or rather, they all *have* a splinter? More like a breath than anything else? Whatever Shard the One is, if it is one, sounds like it would produce an end-neutral magic system. - on a connected note, if a shard split up, that would have to involve the Cognitive Realm too if the intent is to experience everything. The Spiritual Realm is distinct from both of the others, but those have enough parallels that it would be plausible to see them as existance and the SR as something beyond. So there would have to be or could be Splinters around too. - I can't wait to find out what the other lands on the travel were. I doubt that Sel was part of them, partly because Sel is so different depending on where you are that it's hard to count it as one land, on the other because worldhopping from and to Sel is very difficult. - I do believe they will continue traveling, and I believe between SA 5 and 6 will be when. Sa 4 and 5 will have very little time inbetween them, but there will be a timeskip. Whatever the result at the end of SA5 will be, I think it will have signifcant changes to the status quo in Roshar, as in, the balance of Shards etc might have changed. Whether Honor is reforged, Odium is freed, Cultivation completes some kind of plan and gives up her shard, something will change, and that could a) open up Travel for the Iriali and/or b ) signify the end of the experience there. I think we won't learn about their travel in the book but in SA6, or maybe in one of the many epilogues, but won't get that much out of it apart from maybe a hint for what the Tidereaders see as the next location. Who knows, maybe it will be the Aimians that help them get on their way. Even if Cultivation isn't The One, which I doubt, her Intent as I understand it would welcome the Iriali using her Perpendiculary. - Whatever the 7th land is, I think it's a world we don't know yet or that will change significantly until the Space Age, and that it's settlement will be an important plot. - The Dragon/Human Hybrid is a very cool idea, but their "inhuman" ancestry might be something else. It could be something as simple as "are Scadrian Humans the same as Rosharan/Ashynite Humans? They were created after the image of Yolish Humans and seem more or less the same as other Humans, but they kind of aren't either". If Preservation and Ruin re-invented the human, another Shard might've done something similar when becoming/endowing the Iriali. alright, now for the juicy part, the list: (I'll lump planets and shards together, but thoughts on them might not be the same) - Sel/Dominion, Devotion: As said before, Sel is highly unlikely to be any of the 7 lands. Whereas Roshar can fairly easily be called "a land" despite being a planet too because it's only one continent there, Sel has a lot going on on there, plus travel is very difficult. - Scadrial/Ruin, Preservation: Honestly? Might have been. We know so little about Scadrial pre-Rasheks-Ascension. The few things we do know hint that it's not as dull as it might seem from Era 1. There is already a whole people that we only learnt about later, Southern Scadrians. There is right now some kind of entity that also appears in ancient religions and we don't know which of the two inspired the other. The Pits used to be a busy worldhopping spot, and we have no real idea for what, because for 1000 years development was pretty stagnant and Lerasium was hard to get, and Spikes dangerous. I would genuinly not be surprised if we ever hear about some kind of ancient religion that the Keepers knew about whose believers thought themselves in the 2nd land or something like that. The biggest question here is how they'd fit into Preservation and Ruin's deal if they ever lived there. Rashek's Ascension would definitely be a good "time to leave" call though. - Nalthis/Endowment: Another good candidate for Involvement with the Iriali tbh, both the Planet and the Shard. We know basically nothing about how the rest of Nalthis looks like, and what kind of peoples live there outside of Idris/Hallandren. It's been hinted/shown that Nalthian Cosmere-travellers aren't that rare, and Endowment seems like the type to be happy to let people travel around, which makes me think there might even be multiple Perpendicularies on Nalthis. . Being Lifeless sounds like an Experience the One would want to have made, as are the heightenings. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Endowment is connected to the Iriali. Endowing the One with many lives/Endowing the Many with lives to make experiences could be something that happened long before the Manywar. The Iriali might have been founded by a Returned who set them on their track. - Roshar/Honor/Cultivation/Odium: Cultivation theoretically ligns up with the Iriali, but we know that Roshar is N°4, so Cultivation probably was happy to welcome them, and I think would also help them travel further. - Ashyn: Not gonna lie, Ashyn might be Land N°5. The whole Incubator thing certainly sounds like an Experience for the One to make. - Whimsy, Mercy: not big on those being involved here. Mercy might take them in on their world because its mercyful, but I haven't got more. - Invention: If the name was something else, I might consider a connection, but... Invention sounds like creating something new, not amassing experiences. Curiosity and Invention sadly aren't quite the same thing, though they are close. - Valor: Interesting candidate. I can't really see Valor splintering itself (though that would certainly be valorant), I can see Valor welcoming or supporting the Iriali as brave Explorers and brave people in general.

personally, I think the long-term goal is becoming Ambition.

oh wow that looks gorgeous! I'm only now realizing how much I still don't imagine Scadrial in green and colour yet.

Time for a little thought experiment. I'd be very interested to hear other people's thoughts and takes on this. Let's imagine that Spren were present everywhere in the Cosmere, or atleast everywhere with intelligent life/a presence in the Cognitive Realm. Apart from the regular types of spren, which would just act pretty normally, and Radiant Spren possibly only existing on Roshar due to Honor and Cultivation, there's the third group: Godspren. and then there's those that we still aren't sure about. The Unmade on one hand, and Cusicesh. Now, if we imagine that Spren were a thing everywhere in the Cosmere, I'd say it's safe to assume we'd have a few more of both of these groups. Not many, but a few. What I'm wondering is where they might appear and also what kind of Godspren the known shards might have. Here's a few ideas of mine: Elantris would definitely have a Spren. Urithiru has/is one, and it's a giant Fabrial. Elantris is a Giant Aon. 100% Elantris would have a spren and I bet lots of people would worship it. There would definitely be Folklore that It directs the Shaod, and that you can sway it somehow. I'm unsure whether the ElantrisSpren would also be Devotion's Godspren or if that would be a seperate one. If Devotion could even have one anymore, that is. If it can't, there would very likely be a Dorspren, roaming around on Sel, probably changing character a bit depending on where it is. if a Godspren of Dominion existed, it would probably have ended up as a part of Shu-Dereth, worshipped somehow. I can imagine it having similar powers/characteristics to Nergaoul, only not with Bloodthirst but being atrracted to Courts and Monarchs and other kinds of Rulers. Ruin's Spren would very likely like somewhere in the Pits of Hathsin, or in the biggest most active Volcano. The only reasons for it not to be by the Pits would be because Ruin wants to hide his perpendiculary. Some kind of Fire/Ash being, thing Ragnaros The Firelord, embodying a very local aspect of Ruin, the Volcanos, would make a lot of sense. Preservation's Spren, an a timeline where Fuzz wasn't slowly dying, maybe in the thousand years before the last thousand pre WoA, could be similar to the Nightwatcher, residing somewhere relatively known, and maybe have the ability to "lock" certain things or aspects, and Folklore would have many theories for why it can't prevent Death. Honestly, Lift's wish to not change would probably be so perfect for Preservation's Spren. There might be myths about a being like that existing until a thousand years ago, when the Lord Ruler inherited its powers. I assume the two would have a Dual-Spren too, because their pact is so important for Scadrial as a planet. Either one or two spren, one for the pact and one for Scadrial itself, which they created together. the Pactspren probably couldn't really do much, unable to tip the balance in either way or it would be able to do what Ruin and Preservation can do together, on a smaller scale. Basically, giving life for it to die inevitably. Not sure how fast that would happen though. Now I'm imagining a children's book about a Child asking the Scadrialspren to give life to its toy bunny, and the Scadrialspren telling it that if it gives it life, it will also give it death. The child, eager to finally meet its friend, agrees, and the bunny comes alive, but it ages and decays quickly, and ultimately dies. The Scadrialspren, if they were two, would have powers related to Feruchemy, since that is an innately Scadrian power and one that Preservation and Ruins children can have. Maybe there's a rite for Woldbringers to travel to it before their death and "give" their remaining stores to it, most importantly all the knowledge in their copperminds. I assume we would have seen this Spren in Era 1, with Harmony Meeting it at some point and still wouldn't have understood he was the Hero of Ages. Then, upon his ascension, he would be able to tap into all the knowledge the Scadrialspren held, or he would have gotten that earlier. Autonomy's Spren is probably a plural, one for each Avatar? or is Patji already kind of a Godspren of Autonomy? kind of seems like it. If there is one on Taldain, it might as well be the Sun. I'm out of ideas for this one, but I'd love to hear some! Ambition's Spren is probably AKA The Evil Endowment's Spren could be somewhere on the Planet that we haven't seen yet. Like with the Elantrisspren, Folklore might confuse it and Endowment, like how Cultivation and the Nightwatcher are so close, assuming that it is the Endowmentspren that returns people. It's name would veerry likely be colour-related, and I imagine it shifting through rainbow colours like how Cusicesh shifts faces, or affect colours around it like how Susebron does. Endowment's Spren is a big candidate for the most powerful of the Godspren, having been Endowed with a lot of power, and probably having recieved guidance from her mother the same way the Nightwatcher does. Whether Endowment would genuinely teach it to return people, like how close Cultivation and the Nightwatcher are, or if Endowment would give it a seperate ability, I don't know. Maybe it would just be Nightwatcher Lite (Daywatcher? :D), just endowing you with a boon without a curse. A cooler idea than that: Awakening is an End-Neutral System, right? Maybe the Daywatcher (patent pending) could give you boons, but in exchange for a lot of breath or something else. The more breath you bring, the more powerful your boon. Some people would pilger there to exchange their own breath for something, or maybe go with the collected 10-100 Breaths of their family or village for something bigger. Basically, you become "Awakened" somehow, Endowed with a gift. It would definitely have immense amounts of Investiture/Breath to use and be the best awakener ever. The wildest idea I have for Endowment's Godspren is that it uses itself to Awaken, either jumping from (dead) host to host, or it's a Bondsmith-like Bond where you have a Breath even stronger than a Divine Breath. Whimsy, Mercy, Valor and Invention I know too little about to theorize. Other things... oh, Silverlight is another city that might have its own spren like Elantris and Urithiru. And I don't like Imagining the characteristics of a Braizen Spren of Odium, which is probably where his Godspren, if he had/has one, resides. Torturespren let's go. And if Ashyn has a spren, it either now has two, the old one died or changed a lot when it was destroyed. That Spren could very well be Patient 0 for the magic diseases. Anyway, lot's of theorycrafting and rambling from me. I'm interested to hear other people's ideas and theories.

Yeah, good question. I've wondered about Kelsium too. We have very little to go off of, sadly, and I'm unsure how much the Vessel Influences that. From what we know Lerasium lets you rewrite your spiritweb somehow and somewhat. Atium connects you to the spiritual realm temporarily We don't know what Harmonium does, but it's explosive, which kind of fits the fact that Sazed has to balance those two opposing shards. So it seems that Kelsium would have more to do with what Ambition represents. As we have seen no active magic being used that's Ambition-related, we have basically no idea. My first thought would be something kind of like Duralumin, boosting or enhancing other things. It could also become some kind of necromantic death magic thing, though both are probably too "little" for a Godmetal.

I only recently noticed I hadn't updated my favourite Story-theory yet with the new Dawnshard/RoW Knowledge, so here goes. TL; DR: Kelsier will try to reforge and become Ambition. Collecting enough of Ambitions Investiture will enable him to ascend to Shardhood. So, RoW answered atleast some of my thoughts about what Kel would get up to. It also fed into my theory, so it's time to dig that up again. First, the arguments that still hold: (New Arguments at the bottom) - He tasted Ascension with Preservation. And now that he knows that's a thing that is possible, it seems like a worthy goal to keep himself busy with. - Hoid seems to be interested in keeping the Shards from gaining too much power and keeping them seperated. Kelsier hates him. Would be fun to have them square off in that kind of way, especially with Hoid as the MC of Mistborn Era 4 You might ask: But why specifically Ambition? - At the end of Secret History, Vin asks Kelsier an important question about his motivation. We're lead to believe that Kelsier will look inside himself and realize that she was right and his vendetta against the Lord Ruler was more about himself than the Skaa or Scadrial. From RoW, we can gather that he probably accepted that and doubled down on it - see Thaidakar. We saw that Preservations Intent and Kelsier's personality were too different. Of all the shards we know, Ambition would fit him really well. He's insanely ambitious, going so far as to think up a way to overthrow an - as far as he knew - immortal Emperor. He punched multiple gods. And he created a multiple-world-spanning secret Organisation. If that isn't ambitious, I don't know what is. - Additionally, according to my Understanding, Ambition is one of the, if not the, least limiting Intents. With all we've read about Ruin corrupting Ati, Odium and Honor and Preservation etc limiting their Vessels, Ambition is... not really like that. I'm sure there some zany stuff there, but I doubt becoming Ambition would hinder Kelsiers Megalomania, if anything it would further increase it. And it wouldn't bind him to anything stupid like Oaths or whatever, which he definitely wouldn't want. But there's more hints towards my theory. - Foreshadowing (pun intended). When Kelsier encountered the Ire, they mentioned Threnody Shades. As Kelsier is a Cognitive Shadow, their Alerter Fabrial picked up on him. I believe that this might be more than fanservice for those of us who read Shadows for Silence. Threnody is the one planet we know where Investiture from Ambition "landed" in large chunks. It's already connected to Cognitive Shadows, and the names of the planets in the Threnodite system are all the names of Songs of Mourning - and Kelsier is dead ( also as in "The Bands of Mourning", which Kelsier used) - Threnody and Sel are the only other two planets that Kelsier canonically knew as of the end of secret history. Putting himself in opposition of the Ire, it wouldn't be too far fetched that he would have investigated what it is that these very knowledgable people are trying to contain that they confused him with. Not a far stretch imho. It seems that on Roshar, the Ghostbloods already have plan and directive, so I assume Kelsier already has had some kind of plan by the time they set up on Roshar. - Ambition was splintered, but unlike Dominion and Devotion. While we know that Odium stuffed those two in the Cognitive Realm to make sure they wouldn't be picked up again, as far as we know he didn't know how to do that yet when he finished off Ambition outside the Threnodite system. So while Ambition is probably spread out in dead chunks of Investiture, someone ambitious enough with a lot of time could try to collect those. - Additionally, Edgli (Endowment) seemed to think that Ambitions last Vessel would've been trouble, and seems glad that she's gone. From different WoB's we know that Sazed's ascension has caused quite a stir, so Kelsier could definitely take up the troublemaking mantle of Uli Da very well. Alright, time for the new arguments and thoughts: Two things are majorly important: - The Ghostbloods are looking for ways to transport Investiture. Ba-Ado-Mishram, Gems, Stormlight... Aside from trying to find a way for their Master to actually move beyond Scadrial, they are looking for ways to transport Investiture. Sure, Money and Power are good motivators, but I think there's a second reason for that: Moving Chunks of Ambition. What would this do for them? Well... Douglas What about a lerasium savant? Or would that require so much lerasium that the person attempting it would ascend to become a new Shardholder? Brandon Sanderson Basically, this is what Ascension is. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012) I imagine the Plan to go something like this: Step 1: Find a way to store most of the big chunks of Ambition's Investiture. I assume it's not all in the form of Shades, so imagine Gems and whatever stuffed full of Investiture - if necessary, Step 2: Convert it into a Form Thaidakar can use. If Raboniel and Navani can figure out Light physics, I'm sure people in Silverlight or other Scholars somewhere are able to do so too. I'd be surprised if the Ghostbloods didn't have some smart Cosmere Scientists on their Payroll. Convert all that Investiture into solid form: a metal. Uli Dum/Ambitium - Step 3: Kelsier burns massive amounts of Ambitium or an Ambitium/Lerasium Alloy, preferrably physically close to Threnody, somewhere in the system. Once he has burnt enough of it, Kelsier ascends to Ambition. The Investiture that hasn't been collected hopefully realigns itself to its new Vessel, and Kel is a Shard now. Aside from those reasons, just think of how absolutely fitting this would be for Kelsiers Story, both in-universe and Meta, for us readers. Kelsier, the Survivor, survives the most deadly place on Scadrial, the pits of Hathsin, under the rule of an "immortal god-emperor", spiting said Emperor. He goes on to challenge that Emperor, and while dying in the Process, deifies himself as The Survivor, sparking both the Revolt that finally took down the Lord Ruler and a Religion around himself. He Survives Death, and goes on to help out at the other very deadly part of Scadrial, the South, and also kinda becomes the god of the people there after helping them survive. Notice a pattern? What better than to do this a third time? The Survivor, a kinda-ghost kinda-god, focusses his attention on the deadliest planet in the known universe, Threnody. If any one people in the Cosmere is doing more surviving than the South Scadrians, it's definitely the people on Threnody. (Try to tell me Kelsier wouldn't like Silence Montane.) After the disaster of Ruin and Preservation and the prophecy, Scadrial needed a god like Harmony to rest and stabilize under. Threnodys woes aren't over, however. What they need is a fighter god, someone able to take on the Evil. Someone who embodies the Will to Survive that Threnodians need, and the Ambition to pull through with it, to take up a fight this hopeless. a ghost-god that's already fought one immortal evil fits into Threnody well, and it would fit so well into Kelsiers story to do his shtick a third time: Help people survive and become their god. Only this time, it would actually be true, and he'd ascend to Shardhood.

aaand there it is yeah, I agree with you, he probably doesn't plan for this to happen. Then again, he also didn't plan for W&W to be 4 books, so it might still happen. The "not yet" is interesting though, i assume that means not in their current state, something would need to happen first. Either that means something would have to happen to Odium or to the Unmade, Remaking them or something. exactly sounds like an amazing way to get intel

oh shoot, I didn't even notice the Mistspren thing, that is very interesting. Maybe in the future we'll see Renarin (maybe in combination with a Bondsmith) or Sja-Anats Bondmate project what Enlightened Spren "see" similar to how Shallan and Dalinar project the Map together that's an interesting thought, I can see that. Would be very interesting. I had thought of the Crystals growing out of Amaram's skin because it seemed to me like that could've been Yelig-Nar "healing" to how he would actually look, but if Yelig-Nar grants all 9 Surges then it has Progression anyway. Re-Shephir being Progression makes a lot of sense too, with the Midnight Essence. Imagine being able to "patch up" someone with Midnight Essence. Or something.

(In case this has been posted or asked before, which I wouldn't be surprised by, please redirect me to that threat) so a friend has recently finished Oathbringer and I ended up saying "imagine if somehow Dalinar bonded Nergaoul", had a chuckle, and now I'm here. Do you think it could be possible to bond Unmade? I'll list arguments that I can come up with, would be interested to hear more. And much more interesting, further down, what could those bonds look like. Con: - The Process of Unmaking might make this impossible by itself, even if it was possible before, whatever the Unmade were before. This might be why the Sibling was so afraid of being Unmade. That could also be because they were afraid that even after "death" they might have to bond someone again. - The Unmade have differing levels of Intelligence/Sapience. Like most Spren, some of the Unmade are more like animals or not even that, just personified forces, than thinking beings. Maybe the more "intelligent" ones would be able to bond, but something like Ashertmarn would probably make a bond partner as enticing as a Windspren, only with more corruption. Pro: - The Sibling was afraid of "being unmade". The Sibling was able to bond Navani. - Re-Shephir tried to establish some kind of Bond with Shallan. Again, we don't know if this would be a Nahel Bond, the possible Odium-equivalent, or something unique to the Midnight Mother. - when imprisoning Nergaoul, Dalinar states (which he probably assumes) that it would only be able to be captured by someone who "deeply, sincerely, understands it". On one hand, this would mean that some kind of connection between an Unmade and a Person (using this as an umbrella term for any bond-able species) is atleast possible. Of course, that could also just be something like Blackthorn Dalinar really vibing with the Thrill. - On the other hand, this would mean that the Lightweaver that once imprisoned Re-Shephir had a sufficient connection/understanding of it. I'm imagining some kind of Lightweaver whose thruths involve something along the lines of "i don't understand people" or "I feel like I'm not part of my species" or some kind of alienating experience that was close enough to Re-Shephirs imitate-to-understand. - Yelig-Nar. That was definitely some kind of bond, but it seems to have more in common with posession than any kind of mutual agreement. Maybe the "swollow this gemstone to imitate having a Gemheart" tactic could work with other Unmade too. - Sja-Anat, or the Enlightened Spren. They are able to bond humans and singers. Granted, Enlightening and Unmaking are probably two distinct processes, but probably not dissimilar. If Enlightened Spren can bond people, maybe Spren could too. Speculation on Bonds: okay, now for the fun part. Let's assume it's possible to bond Unmade, somehow, in a fashion similar to the Nahel Bond, or similar to the Yelig-Nar version aka more close to Forms of Power. Let's get to speculating, I want to hear some crackpot theories. Here are a few of my own: All unmade: A bond with someone might grant even the "dumb" Unmade more Sapience and Intelligence, especially in the physical realm. It might able be able to save or protect them from the threat of being re-unmade, something especially Sja-Anat could be interested in. Now I'm scared of Sja-Anat bonding a Ghostblood member. Additionally, the Heavenly Ones have 9 Surges, and there's 9 Unmade. They might also grant you one of the Voidlight Surges. Ashertmarn: Congratulations! If your new spren is capable of spoken thought, you're now on your path to either passionately or under oath pursue hedonistic revel. Any powers? I doubt it. Ashertmarn would just continue doing what it does anyway and make it so you always have party-people around you. Very close to "Passion" in intent I think, so maybe like with Honorspren he might actually have some kind of oaths, or rather convictions that his bondpartner should subscribe to, stuff like "I will live every moment to the fullest" and "I will persue pleasure" Surge: Cohesion? Ba-Ado-Mishram: She was able to sustain the false Desolation, so I assume you would be able to do something similar to how Dalinar can now open a Perpendiculary for a bit. Again, BAM wouldn't really need you for that. I'm not surprised the Ghostbloods want to find BAM. Surge: Gravitation? Chemoarisch: We know too little here. Surge: Division, because she's the "Dustmother"? Dai-Gonarthis: I've read someone say that he's basically already bonded to Moash somehow, which I don't remember anywhere in the book. He definitely is the one taking Moash's sorrow, but I doubt he needs a bond for that. If he does, he's probably a great partner if you plan to go do war crimes and not feel bad about it. Seems like a Bond with the Black Fisher could be similar to a Lightweaver one, only you double down on your bad qualities instead of confronting them. Source: Abrasion? Moelach: Future Sight, yay. Glys on Steroids, maybe. Surge: Illumination, in the same way as Renarin has it? Nergaoul: We've seen a close approximation of this with the Blackthorn, right? Moelach seems to be on that threshhold of Sapience that he might genuinely profit from a bond, and either him or Ashertmarn are the closest to "Passion", only his convictions would be more like "I will kill" and "I will seek the fight". Surge: Transportation? Lezian-like, swapping bodies taken by the Thrill? Re-Shephir: Prime Candidate for a bond. She already tried to get something like that to Shallan. the Midnight Essence might be available to her bondpartner too, she would gain more understanding, which she seems to seek. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one that actually happens on screen somehow. Whether in a gemheart or with a bond or some sort I have no idea. "a creature of instinct that is drawn to violence and pain", as coppermind puts it, puts her, in my opinion, on that important threshhold. Surge: Tension. Sja-anat: The other Prime Candidate, right? Enlightened Spren, Renarin, etc... I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of bond is a huge safety measure for her in case Odium tries to re-unmake her. I can't quite imagine what a bond with her would do for someone, but it would surely be interesting. "The taker of Secrets" sounds like someone who might otherwise have been a Lightweaver, Truthwatcher or Elsecaller could be a candidate. What would you say, who would be a scarier potential partner for her? Iyatil, or Jasnah? Surge: Transformation Yelig-nar: Well, we've kind of seen this, right? Your own source of Surges AND Voidlight to use them and cool Skin Cristals! Surge: Progession

yeah, maybe that. Then again, as far as I understood it so far, if you want to move a spren off-world you'd have to figure out a way for that anyway, so... maybe it has something to do with connection. Maybe if you could compound Duralumin? Wait a damn minute If Envoyform can "create" connection, which is how I understood it so far, I wonder if that would mean that an Envoyform Singer that bonded a spren (damn if only that was a thing ) that left Roshar could bring the spren with them??

yeah, you'd have to spike both the Surgebinder and the Spren. Otherwise the spren could just break the bond. Though, interestingly, you know, maybe if you killed a Skybreaker in accordance with the law and spiked them and explained your situation you the highspren, they might even say "yeah, sure, I'm coming with you"

WoB tells us that it would be possible to Replicate Singer Forms with Hemalurgy. As far as I know, we don't knwo details for how exactly that would work, but it would still be fun to speculate, wouldn't it? So, to maybe spark some fun debate and conversation: Let's say our Hemalurgist (as in, someone with the knowledge of Hemalurgy, wherever they originate from) is aware that it might be advisable to spike just one Singer rather than going around becoming a living embodiment of the song of forms. Question 1: What forms would be attractive? Especially, what particular forms would be attractive to particular worldhoppers? Warform sounds like the simple attractive one, in my opinion, especially for someone who is already a Pewterarm. But maybe an Elantrian would prefer Scholarform? Do you think a Seeker (Bronze) who spikes a Singer with a Form of Power could hear Odium's Rythms too, or would they need a Voidspren for that too? Could any other kind of Cosmere Magic make stormform's lightning abilities more reliable? Maybe a Coinshot would be able to shoot a piece of conductive metal behind you, then use that to direct the Lightning in that direction? This is the wildest and most destructive use I've come up with so far. Certainly, Envoyform is very useful if you plan to travel the Cosmere a lot. Question 2: Or even if you decide to spike not the form, but the ability to grow a Gemheart - what Spren would be nice to take with you, if you managed to attract one? Anyway, that's just my thoughts. I'd love to hear thoughts from other people on this! (Note: I haven't quite finished RoW yet, so spoiler tags would still be appreciated)