Illwei

i feel better now then lol

Mmm :/. If Archer flips Elim feel free to hit me over the nose with a newspaper

I am in the synod @Archer and will retract my vote on you and vote for Steel if one of the other two also vote steel. Otherwise I'm staying on you.

Ok, sue me. @Alvron @Araris Valerian @Elandera @Matrim's Dice @Archer @xinoehp512 @Ashbringer Might be selfish but I don't want to be responsible for Archer dying again if he's village. Yes, the links to JNV are strong, not as strong as they were with Striker in the MR, but still. If anyone in the synod would want to move their votes to Steel Instead?

CURRENT READS Illwei - VVV - Expressed interest in voting Stick on D1 - Lots of helpful and Villagery analysis on D2 - Pushed for a JNV wagon on D2 - Nice role PM Alvron - VVV - Shot Stick Araris - VV - Started the train off on JNV yesterday, despite not really having much support. - Stayed on the train even though it would have been easy to switch votes to anyone else (me, Elan, less so elan but same thing) - Good interactions with Striker on D1 that are random but i liked. Not higher due to the fact that Elandera - VV - I like the consistancy with keeping up with her reads in thread, updating them as she goes - was an early JNV voter, and again, didn't move even when it would have been easy for her to hop onto me if she wanted to. Not higher due to the fact that she was V reading me, making it potentially harder to switch off of JNV if they were teamed Matrim - V - Stick voted him at EoD - Voted Stick early D1 - Both him and JNV commented on Steel's not reading the rules being NAI. Not higher due to the fact that he has not voted on an Elim at EoD, and was pushing what I believe are multiple villagers (ie: Me, Xino, Elan). Also due to having a similarly bad reaction to the growing JNV train as Archer. Xino - N/V - Hasn't done much, but good interaction with Stick on D1. - Voted on JNV? I honestly don't know. Archer - N/E - Tried to vote anywhere but JNV yesterday - Pushed who I believe to be multiple villagers (ie: Me, Araris, Elan) Not lower due to the fact that I have been wrong on Archer in the past and will be wrong on Archer in the future. There are definitely some villagery moments, like right now, but in my opinion his vote hopping yesterday and avoidance of JNV is too much for me to not look at. If this is a case like the last MR where he had tied himself so tight to the flipped Elim (striker) as a villager then I am sorry, and I don't mean to say "you're an Elim because you are wrong" because villagers are wrong. but also I don't really think I can look past that enough. I never really want to get complacent and say "we have room for enough misexes" because I'm not even sure if that's the case (I'm slightly worried that the Elim team is 4 people and not 3) but I do believe that Archer is an essential death to move forward in the game. Steel - E - Strangely confident this game - nothing else really going hard for him Not /lower/ due to the fact that I kinda like his fixation on the specific "reads on me for reading the rules" bits, but also that no one was actually giving a read on him based on that is strange. Ashbringer - E - Done nothing - Voted Elan Not higher due to the fact that they have done nothing and only voted villagers NEXT STEPS? Voting Assuming Archer flips v, tomorrow the wagons should be Steel/Ash over Xino imo. I think everyone in my Neutral/Village reads has some sort of interaction with Stick or JNV that puts them there. Steel and Ash are the only people who don't have any sort of level of clearing interactions, so I believe those should be the running to go on D3. If it's still not over by then I think we should do a full re-eval on everyone and re-sort from there. If the game continues after Archer is dead, I again ask that people do not fill if it negates their own vote. If Archer is not the last Elim then either we have 1 or 2 Elims left, and we can't let them gain control of the exe just because you want a chance at using your ability. (Not trying to hate on people who like using night actions, but don't forget to weigh the pros and cons about your NA always) Discussion Even if people are against it, I know, it might be useful to do a full claim of your roles and action history tomorrow. we'll be missing people but it might help figure out what was going on with the votecounts in the past and whatnot. I was hoping that the Synod people would claim tonight, but it's not seeming like that is going to happen with the time that's left. -- Now that i think about it, Ash had 2 votes. I don't think that the Elims would want to leave 2 of them in a tie (not even 1) but i mention 2 because I think Ash is only an Elim with either Araris or Mat, and Mat did have one vote by the end of the day. So the team is either Archer or Steel by themselves, Potentially Xino but ehh?? or Either Araris/Ash or Mat/Ash, and Mat/Ash only works if Mat is a skimmer and Stick filled something that negated her vote (which, high chance tbh lol)

Lol Nice work team

This is going to be a little messy, it's just me thinking out loud. Ashbringer hasn't been around, hasn't voted at all, keeps coming back and saying "i forgot it ended this early" Mat is the top poster, advocated for the vig to claim, advocated for everyone to claim to "provide cover", went "that's too bad" when the nk flipped two good roles, But he was voted on by stick, voted /on/ stick on D1. He never revisited it and didn't go back even when i expressed interest in a stick vote, but has agreed with basically everything i have said yet still wants to vote on me? Said i was convincing him on xino v and then voted xino, still hasn't given a read on my top elim read officially despite definitely expressing a wolfread in so many posts Steel is strangely confident in everything he is doing, while shooting down village reads on him for stupid reasons. The thing is there that no one was actually village reading him for not reading the rules besides Stick it seems? I don't even think Stick was village reading him though. Mat, and JNV called it NAI, Archer called it villagery, no one else commented on it. Implies the team is not mat/jnv? steel is so normally cautious and uneasy sounding, so that's the one reason i don't trust him. but even when he was an Elim with me he was still uneasy. That was his first game back though and he's played since then so it's irrelevant Archer has flipped three times today on three different people who are in my PoE (well, if i was in my PoE) but still isn't voting Jnv. Archer isn't really anti-bus but he's not an avid busser, which is why it really feels like he's trying to frantically find anything other than the JNV exe. I village read him for doing a complete 180 on Araris mid-d1 but then all of a sudden he comes out at near EoD with a "i actually have solid proof and here it is" it wasn't a complete 180, just a "I guess he wasn't really in his Elim meta like i thought he was on d1" and then back around to a "but i actually have solid proof" and honestly on a reread of his araris posts I have 0 clue what his conclusion was. but then he comes back again and Stronger on Araris with a "here's solid proof" but really all it is is that Araris PMd him with his one PM, and then decided not to use his ability again (which means he gets to keep his vote) and while there might really be something there i have no clue what Im supposed to read into about people wanting to keep their votes or not. because everyone kinda should. Like losing your vote for a shot at a night action that doesn't even do much isn't worth it 90% of the time? and using that as a basis to push someone is just incredibly bizzare to me. I can't say it's village. I just don't know if it feels fully fabricated or not. it's just ?? JNV hasn't even voted once and has only posted twice. I shouldn't think he's an Elim as much as I do? Is most of it based on Archer's reaction to JNV? He seemed oblivious to the game being role madness but that's nothing that couldn't be faked so not worth caring about. JNV is the first person that Stick voted (and then 'tried to get to vote on someone') so if I clear mat for that why don't i clear him? and why is everyone so happy to jump on JNV? He defended stick from Mat's accusation in which mat misunderstood something that Stick had said, and he downplayed one of what i consider to be the more valuable roles in the game. I suppose it's only worth it if you start off with 2 charges and then can use copper on the 3rd day but still seeing someone's role and entire action history even if realistically you can only use it once isn't a bad role? I think now that I'm just going too hard on JNV but also they haven't even voted and talk in run on sentences that last a whole paragraph. which isn't how they always talk? They're usually understandable? but "understandable" isn't a village category that has any wieght. Araris again hasn't done much but I just don't feel any agenda from them is all i have on that. I just want to believe in my read of them because I'm a pretty >rand Araris reader recently. they have also been voting basically purely the people who village read them which i don't think is a good strategy but also a strange one for an Elim to have? Xino hasn't really done anything even thought I've spend quite a few posts defending them from Mat today. Really just boils down to Stick correcting me on my suspicion on TUN and telling me i'm talking about Xino instead at a time when she wasn't in thread at all and didn't need to even acknoledge my post. I don't think that Mat is teamed with stick as well again because of how much he has pushed Xino today in comparison to how much I've defended Xino? Idk something there is probably wrong. Idk. Mat fought against me, claimed he felt like he was playing devils advocate when arguing for an E!Xino, and then ended back up voting Xino later. Could it be an Elim and an extreme TMI slip with knowing Xino was village and still calling then an Elim and voting on them?..... @Matrim's Dice your post earlier was yeah, just discrediting any reason to village read me and not anything about why people should be elim reading me. I think you're a villager based on Stick interactions, and if you are, don't discredit reasons to village read someone, counter reasons to village read people with reasons they are an Elim instead. I'm going to a play tonight so I won't be around after 7 pst. in an hour I suppose.

Your point against me not voting stick is really "you could have voted her and then just said you didn't" instead of looking at anything else going on there? You cant possibly pretend to say you think I'm a competent Elim? Look at any of my games and first of all there's an obvious difference. You suspect me absolutely every game for things i do when i'm obviously village and then say "you could be doing this as an elim" I don't even know how to talk about this because I don't think you get how tilting this is. I can't play any game because everyone assumes i am a competent elim who is constantly fooling them. People are either going "illwei seems village but I'm not going to village read them" "Illwei is probably an Elim but I can't say why because I don't have reasoning" "Illwei isn't someone I want to follow with votes because maybe they're an Elim" Stop second guessing absolutely everything that both you and I are doing. If I'm an Elim where are my teammates in my reads? What was my approach to Stick? Why do I claim to have been voting a village read? Why do i even flip on TUN there if a teammate isn't up and I'm not trying to save them? If I am trying to save them by building a wagon on TUN then who is it? And Why don't I flip to someone else? Where is my teammate defending me? If my teammate is too scared to defend me, where do you think their hiding?

I really don't know where to go right now.

If people want to elaborate on their suspicions of me that would be nice. Unfort I think that that both people on me right now are village, but if you haven't been able to find me off of my posting this cycle then I don't think you ever will. I've been obviously village this cycle with my progressions and solving. If I am an elim I have narrowed down my PoE to 4 people (and now three as I say i think Elan is village. I really like her updating with her current reads as they change in every post.) which means I'd have to insanely backtrack on some of my reads if i was an Elim. No one is forcing me to make these village reads, a lot of people don't have them. do you think an Elim chooses to narrow down who they can get away with voting easily? Don't shrug this off saying "yeah an elim could say that sure" because this isn't about what someone /can/ do as an Elim. I could do anything as an Elim. I could also get executed as an Elim. It's what an Elim /would/ do, which involves staying townread but not enough to gain suspicion- enough to not get voted out. It involves keeping your options open enough so that when whoever you're pushing flips village you have plenty of options for the next exe so people don't figure out it's you, it involves keeping your partners wherever you like them- whether that be at arms length or in your pocket. It involves more often than not a number of calculated choices that ensures you and your teammates stay alive. A villager doesn't have to think about all these things. A villager will vote who they want when they want because they think it's who should die, a villager may or may not be interested in their personal survival, but more often than not will not fight in the same way an Elim will depending on who else is a viable candidate for the exe. Most of the time with Elims, definitely if they're active, you'll be able to see a visible Agenda. Maybe not in the moment, but at the very least once you know and zoom out. IE: Maill and me and our actions in LG74. Keeping eachother at arms length so we would look good upon the other's flip, but also using our positions as both widely village read and widely elim read to control the exe. A lot of the time it will be visible in the game, which is what I think Archer is right now with his vote switches. I've rambled and walked away from my computer and walked back more than once so if this is a little all over the place that's why. EDIT: Also there was no stick vote to join when i said that. I hopped in thread and was writing a post when you ninja'd me iirc

Archer that sounds exactly like what happened in AG7 with Araris so like, not really concerning. He had prudence open a PM with me iirc and then proceeded to not use it at all. (before i became pru, i think?) @Elandera can you help me remember if this is true lmfao But yeah, that's just. Araris. EDIT: Elandera (1): Ashbringer >> JNV (3): Araris Valerian, Elandera, Illwei Archer (1): Steeldancer Araris Valerian (1): Archer Illwei (1): Matrim's Dice And here I thought that we were more consolidated than yesterday. I don't understand the suspicion on Araris, but I don't think I can tell if it's fabricated enough or if I think Archer believes it. Regardless I still think that JNV is the best exe for today so not really something I need to think much about. Not filling because it would negate your vote isn't really AI, but all the villagers should definitely be thinking about NOT filling. again, I say. Actions are fun, and fine, and some of them might be worth it depending on how much you need to fill, but also, not enough to forfeit village's only kp.

JNV

Do you guys notice Archer's vote swapping? You should. Not in the villagery "thoughts all over the place, my vote hops from one to another naturally as you can see through my thoughts and it all lines up" In the way where his teammate JNV is up for the exe and he's desperately trying to get traction at all on a exe that isn't JNV. Archer/JNV wagons should be fine for today. EDIT: And despite my wariness off of the confidence from steel, it's not like it matches his elim game any more than his village. Really liking steels post on Archer.

Archer's re-eval on araris looks good for him. Still a chance of them being e/e but that's nothing new. Can you explain what you mean by "killed because voted on d1" Archer?

Striker wasn't ever getting misexed, but I don't follow Archer's theory. If Striker /was/ killed because they weren't able to get a misexe on him then that means Xino Elim Equity rises.

This is where you can say "I'm not Stick and therefore this doesn't apply to me" because she did initially hit send on the "What" post, which isn't what you would have done.

Mat also notice that her comment about it being xino was in an edit. She first just commented "what" and could have even left it at that So if it was an initial reaction, that's where that was. She then decides to come up and clarify on the "what" that I should be looking at Xino rather than TUN for that. It's not just a snap "you mean xino?" It's something she had to consciously think about posting, because it was an edit. EDIT: any thoughts on any of my posts so far?

Not really. It's not, and also pointless to bring up in a conversation with me unless you are going to expand on it/Look at it/Push me with it. So you're saying- put yourself in her shoes and don't go "but I'm not her" Just say you're an elim, and Xino is your partner. You've been trying to push TUN and no one really cares for it so you've given up and hopped on a vanity wagon. Suddenly Illwei posts something suspecting TUN for something TUN didn't do. You don't ignore it, you instead respond to it going "no, you're not suspecting TUN there, you're actually suspecting [my teammate] Xino. And it's not like you were in thread before that, no. You were around about 8 hours earlier, and had just popped back in. Do you pop back in to correct a villager about a read that should be applied to your teammate? or do you just stay out of thread for a little bit longer?

Also Stick was definitely not a top village read, I suppose I will be the quoter this cycle because I can. This is the point in which I added stick into my V reads, and it was based on- This specific post, which i liked the emoticon. If Mat had moved back to Stick I would have probably joined him, honestly. Now right now I'm trying to think about if I should be Elim reading Araris based on this post as well, since the comparison to Striker and subsequent Striker NK is making me wonder. Stick made two striker "not e/e" comparisons on D1, and then with Striker flipping it makes me wonder if it was supposed to set up Araris/Mat for the future. Not something I'm thinking about right now though because it implies Stick was sure she wanted to flip Striker early on (which maybe she was, if the Elim doc had figured out one of the Synod members. That might imply that one of the Striker voters was an Elim, or the main voter. This then leads to Xino, who I'm calling village for now. -- Araris also now voting JNV makes things kinda ?? I also want to think more on the fact that people generally find Striker to be suspicious. I do pride myself on being a good striker reader, but usually even you fall into elim reading him. More likely the main striker V readers are going to be Elims with TMI who think he's villagery because of TMI, and the main striker pushers are going to be Villagers. Yeah, i know this contradicts what i wrote directly above about striker pushers being evil, but it doesn't contradict my read on Xino, which stays. @Matrim's Dice thought on my point about V!Xino in my above post?

After rereading the rules I realize that the only village nk is the generic kill action, so i will modify my statement to: if you submitted a kill action on Stick then counterclaim alv. If you did not submit a kill action on stick do not counterclaim. Village reads (in order) Alv Mat Steel Archer Spew? Village tier: Xino- Before this I had just said I suspected TUN for something, and Stick corrects me to Xino. Would she have done that if Xino was her partner? I think not right now, it's not a solid village read but it's enough for at least this cycle til i see more from Xino. It's unneccesary attention onto Xino that I previously had directed on V!TUN. Mat- My read on mat if based on things he's done/said, but also on Stick's vote on him here. He isn't the role that negates votes on him, and she isn't the role that negates her vote, as we see a vote on mat still in the night cycle vc. Her moving onto Mat and still no one consolidating after that implies that he isn't a teammate. The only way I would say this isn't applicable is if Araris/Mat are not E/E, and Ashbringer is a Skimmer. this in addition to Mat's vote on Stick for a misunderstanding. I also just don't think this: interaction happens between two Elims. If Stick was village then yeah mat could be an Elim, because this feels like an elim who was caught, but that goes away when you see that this reaction of feeling like he was caught was because an Elim voted him. If it was supposed to be staged then he wouldn't be trying to play it off like he does, instead either reacting lighter or blowing it up bigger. --- So I'm keeping Steel in my village reads for now, but specifically posts like this- Either they're the base of my read or they should be the base of an Elim read. Before this, Matrim Calls it NAI Archer calls it V JNV calls it NAI (of sorts) And that's it. Which does mean that Steel is more fixated on Archer than Mat or JNV imo, which is NAI unless JNV is an Elim, in which case Steel equity goes up. I think JNV is >rand Elim at the moment anyways, so it's not really something i care about exploring before getting JNV's flip. I'm probably going to village read Archer for this cycle. I like this post specifically, unless Archer and Steel are E/E. Yeah, it could be pocketing, but Steel is historically, recently, a designated misexe. To village read him off of something that was frameable as suspicious is villagery. Countering that though, Archer likes to play as if he was a villager. So the question is this could also be a TMI read of steel, but without other comments on steel there's no real way to think that for real yet. That, in addition to this, which feels like Stick is trying to appeal to Archer in a way. Also in re-reading, pocketing people as a villager isn't an irrational move Archer. Usually it implies you know that they're village, but in village's case it can be useful to just pocket everyone or whoever you can either to avoid being a misexe or to avoid being NKd. I am also suggesting that if you are a role that, when filling, your vote gets redirected/nullified, think more about filling. Don't just fill because you want to have an action. While the communal nightkill exists, don't forget that our actual kill power is the vote, and if you make your vote nullified/random every cycle or most cycles simply because you want to have some sort of action to use then you basically forfeit that kill power to the Elims. Even if your ability is powerful, is it worth forfeiting your vote for that long? will you survive that long? Just because you have an action doesn't mean it's always good to use it- in a lot of cases it can be very anti-wincon in the end, so think about that. Anyways, I've been all over the place so far, so where does that leave me right now. Ashbringer Elandera JNV Araris Ash/Araris can definitely be E/E, if Mat is not a Tin/Zinc Ferring. if he is then they can only be e/e if Mat is also an Elim, which is unlikely fmpov. At this point I am most comfortable with voting either JNV or Araris. Elandera I am consistantly wrong on, and Ash hasn't been in thread enough to fully read him imo. One thing about Steel that I will say is that he seems to have gotten more confident since his return, and while that's theoretically expected just since he's been playing games, I want to associate that with an Elim rand- but will probably need a meta dive of sorts if i want to act on anything related to that read. so for now it's sitting in the garage gathering dust.

I'm driving right now but thus needs to be said: if you shot stick and are not alv then don't claim and shoot him tonight. If you are not alv and didn't shoot stick, also don't counterclaim. This is not the best case scenario. It both denies us the solid clear that we have in alv right now, and creates more confusion for us than the elims. With one elim down already and working with alv as cleared is enough to set us up for a pretty good shot at winning I'll talk more once I'm home from work EDIT: and yes, I was roleblocked.

We're at 6 people, which mean 2 v. 4 at this point. I'm just going to say that this is definitely lylo and i think we should massclaim hear me out- if there's only a 2 person Elim team then their roles have to reflect that. Furthermore, there are Elim-specific roles that they could have. Devotary Devo is blatantly the vote manip, and i don't think a 2 person Elim team really could have much chance without some role that was basically another person. vote manip standard.

1) it's a breaktank 2) it's directly to test the accuracy of D1 reads 3) I don't think people will care/get too attached about winning a game that they only play for 3 days

Then you wouldn't be my target audience, but also why I'm wanting to run it as a BT, and then just close it when i find people getting too burnt out. That's why I'd be looking at players who like to pop in every day, once a day, comment on things going on and then leave. There are players right now who play like that in normal games, even QFs, and it's hard to mesh those with people who like to post more, which we also have quite a few of. The reason people get burnt out in long form games is because they are the type of player who feels the need to threadcamp and sit and wait and interact realtime with everyone, when that isn't how you play longform games. It means people like Tani who aren't on on sundays don't miss a whole or half a cycle, it means people like Exp who have to dissappear for days don't have to get replaced out. I was going to include a bit about the similarity with vanilla games in the problem about keeping people engaged, but that isn't really applicable because the goal would be to see if anyone would be interested in trying it out because maybe it could suit their playstyle, rather than try and get people who don't think they could play a longform mafia game and try and accommodate it to them. The Elim team would be whatever the normal ratio is. The goal would be to test the accuracy of D1 reads. By saying this, you imply that you think D1 accuracy is >rand, when a lot of other people think it's very <rand. (see Archer saying "we're not going to kill an Elim today, but-" in every game).

Two rough Break Tank ideas (with very much working titles): Warning that neither of these would be run in the standard decided Break Tank format really (meaning short cycles.) BT##: Are you tired yet? [working title #1] There's quite a few people here who can't be in thread a lot, sometimes for days at a time during a game, sometimes for specific days every week. I wanted to try running a longer form game to see if people would be interested in trying that. Day/Night Lengths are changeable, right now I have them set at 144 hours (6 days) for day turns and 24 hours for night turns. The idea is that a cycle would be about a week in length. People would not be allowed to talk during night cycles (besides the Elims, of course), and this is mostly because after a long day cycle I assume people will start to get burnt out. So the night cycle would mostly be so that they can ignore the game for a whole day if they like and come back later. This could also be extended to 48 hours. There's nothing much in the doc right now, because if I would be allowed to run this as a BT (which I'm not sure on) I'd want to find a ruleset that would be pretty normal/similar to a lot of things that are run, and could be used with a smaller playercount. Looking at probably a 9 player game. Doc here, not much in it right now. BT##: Only for a night [working title #2] This one isn't much of a full game, but a test. It was an idea I came up with after talking with some people about D1 accuracy in reads. It would last exactly 96 hours, split into a 48 hour day turn, a 24 hour night turn, and a 24 hour twilight period. During the day cycle people will play normally like they would in a game. During the night each player would send in a list of who they'd like to Execute, in order. Alongside that, the Elims would send in a list of who they'd like to Night Kill, in order. After the Night cycle is over, the Night Kill/any other public feedback from that night will be announced. Then a 24 hour twilight period in which no talking is allowed will start, and all players will be given the option to modify their lists one time. Then once that is all over, the game is over and we'll see what each day's elimination and nightkill would be. There is a little bit more detailed explaination in the doc, if it's not clear, but that's it. Doc here.