Master Silver

With that amount of power, and being stone shapers, they could essentially build a grand city very quickly, certainly within 10 years.

You are absolutely right. If we were talking about impact on the Battle Field, Jasinah and Shallan would certainly be up there. I am speaking mostly of those best equipped for and most likely to duel Moash and end his miserable life. I did the power scaling thing as an old habit of a DBZ fan. Moash tends to be really good at cheating. When was the last time he was in a straight up fight? Against Teft, that was never a fair fight. In fact, beginning with Words of Radiance, Moash never fights fairly. I really think Elohkar might have been able to win against him. Plate and blade vs Shard spear. Hadn't ever thought about this before.

So, who kills Moash? I found incredibly arrogant of Moash to say he could still best The Lopen, when the last time they fought, THE Lopen had one arm. Does it make the most sense to have Bridge 4 kill him or Kaladin, or Jezrien's daughter? Adolin would also be a great choice. Or better yet Gavinor, now that... that I would LOVE. Gavinor is the King of Alethkar, Retribution must keep his promise to him. If Moash doesn't go off world, it is hard to think that Gavinor won't kill him. Especially after real training. Best fighters from the first 5 books (not including Heralds), Kaladin > Szeth > Blackthorn > Adolin > Dalinar > Gavilar > Fused > Moash > Scar > Teft > Bridge 4.

I agree that I think it was because his perpendicularity was there. But also, he had no way of knowing what would happen at the contest of champions. If he lost or even if he won, but his well of power was discovered, would he be able to move it? If not, Navani and her scientists could work to unkey that investiture, or simply siphon it off and destroy it with anti-void light, meaning over time Odium would weaken or he would lose x amount of power if he is able to stop it from pooling there. A follow up question is whether or not that pool of power now collects war light, or if Odium moved it and how does this affect the chasm feids? Will they become more intelligent? Will their personalities change? I imagine they will change somewhat since the pool of power changed.

I thought that Hoid rescued Elhokar's Cryptic which was stuck in the physical realm. The Cryptic was there to bond Elhokar but he died before he could speak the words. Moash made sure he was dead.

This is head canon, but since we know Sig almost immediately went off world, he can only be talking about himself and the high spren. That would be we. They both ran away instead of staying to help. I know Sig was hurting, and I guess holding the Dawn Shard made him leave though

If Battar is still a traitor, I could see Jasnah replacing her. Also, other heralds may end up looking for replacements too.

Hey Mattel, I am a U.S Army Chaplain and a Christian Pastor. I have had the privilege of discussing these very things with Morman Army chaplains. The LDS use the word God very differently than orthodox Christianity. By God, we mean an eternal uncreated being. For us God Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all equal according to His deity. Three divine persons, one divine substance. If you cannot say Jesus is equal to the Father according to His deity and begotten not made, then you are outside of the catholic (universal) Church confessed in the Apostles Creed. That is not to say someone else couldn't be correct, but it is to say that if you take away the fundamentals of the Christian faith you end up with a different religion. I would encourage you to read this Art. IV (II): Of Justification | Book of Concord and ask is that worth giving up and if so, what am I getting instead. Blessings on your study.

I am really rooting for Adolin to get his leg back. It seems crazy to know it is possible, to have the wealth to pay for regrowth but not be able to access it. Come on Lift we are counting on you.

I would say this is no longer a man who ONLY wins by punching harder. The Blackthorn is still there as a part of him, waiting to be called out. Taravangian takes up the power because he knew he could have (my opinion is would have) lost.

Yes she set Dalinar on this path, but experience with him would indicate that as Honor, Dalinar would just punch harder. I don't think anyone can convince me that Dalinar wouldn't have killed Taravangian had he fought. And Cultivation being a Shard, probably would think it was worth it, or at least her power would be glad to be free.

Now that was funny. We had been going back and forth on whether the 5th ideal granted "functional" immortality as in you don't age, sort of like the fifth heightening. I am almost certain that the aluminum cage or fabrils we see used on Kaladin in Rhythms of War and also how they put the Radiants to sleep wouldn't work on a fourth ideal radiant. I am still very surprised that no Windrunner swore the 4th ideal during the battle. Getting back to the fifth ideal, I suppose it would make sense that they no longer leaked Stormlight and that they are capable of holding a great deal of it. I believe it would also make sense if swearing the fifth ideal gave them a perfect gem heart (those have to come from somewhere). Do you age while holding stormlight? Endowments investiture seems to be better at sticking around and if it must be said investing an individual. Logic says you still grow, age, and change while holding life light or tower light. We also know that the Skybreakers at this time had zero 5th ideal Radiants, so it is unlikely that you become functionally immortal. Although, with the dissident Skybreakers it could be that all who have the capacity to swear the fifth ideal chose differently than those loyal to Nale. Additionally, it must be only a very small number that make it to the fifth ideal, and Nale likely killed most of them I would think. Then again, the Heralds seem to have been going crazy only more recently. Depending on how you read the reveal

I think Cultivation's plan A was for Taravangian to do better than Rayes. When he chose the same path, plan B was to hold his family hostage. When that failed, plan C was for Dalinar to take up Honor and either continue the battle that Tanavast had waged or better yet, Kill the Vessel of Odium, take up Odium and become the Shard of Justice. Divine Retribution and Divine Justice are close but not identical. I think the Vessel of Honor taking up Odium after winning to tame the power would be the best choice. It would have maybe destroyed Roshar, but Hoid at the very least would have said that would have been worth it to end Odium.

I kinda wish Brandon would take a year off, then take a year split this book in two flush somethings out and do some polishing of the prose. I love the quantity Brandon gives us, but this is why I go back to Tolkien over and over again.

To me, the only thing that would make sense with the unmade, is remaking them somehow. Sorta like the reverse of what was being done to the Sibling. If the new Oath pact does not protect void spren, I can see the unmade, hiding and then wanting their investiture changed to Honor's or Cultivations so that they are not destroyed. The Heralds and the Radiants also may not have the same sort of limitations now that Dalinar removed all the checks upon them by dissolving all oaths. But just because Dalinar did that while holding Honor's shard doesn't mean that the Radiant spren will not require oaths (aside from the former deadeyes that are the Unoathed). In order to do this though, I think they will need Nivanee. And she is currently in hibernation.

Also, Kaladin having an Honor Spear now frees Syl up to ride the storms. And possibly she can be in two places at once. Taravangian indicates it is possible for him. If Syl inherited the Stormfather's power, perhaps she can be in more than one place at a time. Also, we shouldn't forget the Wind. It is possible for the Wind to take up the mantel now that the Stormfather is dead. Or perhaps and best case scenario the two of them work together. The Ancient Daught and the Ancient Wind, and get a few hundred honor spren and a thousand wind spren to make a new High Storm.

Very legible and great points. If the Spren of Wind received a piece of Honor it could be possible that she create a miniature storm system that goes over Azir that has either its origin in Urithiru (which would be most natural or in Azimir. Honor's power wasn't absorbed it simply way melded (for the most part with Odium). I think the Shard of Honor would still feel bound to allow the Honor blades direct access to his investiture. Meaning that perhaps two Honor blades could power the Oath gates. That is going to be the big problem going forward. How does team Radiant gain access to investiture? Also, at the end of 1000 years Odium can obliterate everyone correct?

The title says it all. From the new oath pact it is official that some of Honor's power cannot be reabsorbed by the Shard Retribution. Does the oath pact protect all spren, Honor's Cultivation's and Odium's? I suppose they would all need to be destroyed by the Fused now. You have all of the Honor Spren and other spren that are of Honor, not sure how many but that is a good amount of investiture. How many Honor and Wind spren would it take to create another Stormfather? Then we have the 10 Honorblades (including Kaladin's Honor Spear). There is also Jezrin's blade. If it could be recovered, perhaps Ishar could use it power an oath gate from Urithiru to Azir. Then there is a piece of Honor that seemingly leveled up Syl. She is not only the Ancient daughter but now the queen of the Honor spren. Her eyes and natural clothes changed. Then you have the Sibling, who is a combination of Cultivation and Honor. Perhaps since they know Honor's tone, the Sibling could create stormlight?

Three things that really bother me about the book is the cheapness of the 5th oath. It seemed like nothing. You got a bunch of stormlight, whooptedo. It was never explored at all. And then in terms of holding/winning territory. The battle of the Shattered plains would have been very winnable if Dalinar had not gone into the spiritual realm. And honestly it is truly for selfish reasons. Yes, you get Alethkar back if you win, but considering you could lose everything else, it truly was selfish. Aside from that, if he didn't go into the spiritual realm Gavinor would have been safe and Odium wouldn't have leveled up. And then then Tanavast actively making things worse the whole book. Sigh Finally, I am not even sure if Taravangian is a true big bad. I thought for a bit he was, but then how he saved his city and then took up another Shard and actually brought about world peace. He actually has made the Shard Odium less dangerous.

I really like your line of reasoning. Also, the honor blades were supposed to give the Heralds a direct line to Honor. I can't remember where, but I thought the honor blades allowed the Heralds access to stormlight all the time. I can't remember if that is in the blades themselves or not. Also, are the honor blades more highly invested then the spren? So what does that mean? How much of the Shard Honor's power is in the spren and the Honor blades?

Do you think that once the new Shard is formed, it still has a claim on the investiture of Honor it didn't absorb? For instance, the Honor blades. We know Taravangian cannot touch the spren which are also a large amount of investiture.

I think I remember from right before Honor is taken up by Taravangian, some parts of Honor split off. One of them makes the Honor spear of Kaladin. Another seemingly changed Syl. This means that there are 11 slivers maybe the right word is splinters of Honor that are left. Did Honor have a pool? or was it just the Stormfather? What happens to all the Stormlight that was on Roshar after the Stormfather died. Does all of it go back to Retribution? If there was any remaining after the Shards combined where does that stormlight go? Syl? The honor blades?

Let me start by saying I haven't read everything on this thread. Also, this is going to be a little unpopular. I feel like Brandon needed to either break this book into two books or kill a few characters early on so that he wouldn't need to spend time on them. Things that I wished were more flushed out- Adolin's and Maya's bond (him being unable to regrow his foot I thought was contrived). In the Oathbringer, it seemed like he had small amounts of stormlight healing. Also, there was too much hand waving about this. At the end of the day with the unmade being released (can't spell her name), this makes what Adolin did seem less important. The contest of champions. I didn't think this was well done at all. I get Gav being the champion. I don't get Dalinar not bringing a blade (missed opportunity with Oathbringer). Cultivation makes zero and I mean zero sense. There was an opportunity to make her shine but I felt like she behaved like a spiteful ex-girlfriend when we look at what happened to honor. The Moash stuff, honestly I thought it was a bit rushed and the fights were not as well done. It would have been great if Moash lost another little piece of himself. Maybe an ear this time. Dalinar's ascension, again we build to this the whole book, but then nothing. And ending all oaths, could have led to the destruction of the whole planet. Szeth losing an arm and not receiving regrowth, again no reason for that. Finally, the whole Stormlight being completely gone, again I think there were other options, since there are technically 11 large portions of the Shard still around. Overall, I liked the book but many things just seemed rushed. The fights, the new relationships (like the budding friendships we saw), magic system explanations, and especially not seeing what the fifth idea actually was able to do. Super disappointed about the magic system stuff. The Adolin storyline I thought was the best. Then Taravangian. Then Kaladin and Szeth. Then Dalinar. I think I would put this as my third favorite book in the series.

Taravangian offered to make her the regent of the whole planet. There is absolutely no need for them to keep fighting him. Taravangian litterally became their god so what is the point? Odium has been defeated because Odium does not exist anymore.

I actually think, and this would be great. Seth becomes a Windrunner, with Sigzals spren, and then he kills Moash as Kaladin is unable to get to the Windrunners in time. That would be a super meaningful ending. Kaladin became Radiant because of Moash and Seth. Seth is redeemed and protects those Kaladin cannot protect.