honorblades

Wow!! What an idea! I have never thought of this before. This is very interesting indeed. It think this actually makes sense because personally, I view the ultimate ending of Stormlight to be some sort of reconciliation between the 3 Shards on Roshar as well as, broadly, the Singers & Humans. Having a single storm that fuels both magic systems would make sense in this regard.

This part in particular intrigues me, and I think we agree on this. There seems to be heavy foreshadowing that SA5 will have a dark ending, sort of a cliffhanger, specifically with something being messed up with how the highstorms usually work. Given what we know of Dalinar + Odium's deal with the Battle of Champions, it seems to be a pretty safe bet that something will happen with the Stormfather & the highstorm. Another possibility you didn't mention is Odium's promise to make Dalinar a Fused: that would have disastrous consequences on Roshar if Dalinar is still bonded to the Stormfather when that occurs. In other words, I am very anxious about the future of Roshar. Things are not looking positive at this point.

Puuli, the lighthouse keeper on the eastern Rosharan coast facing the Ocean of Origins, has a family tradition of awaiting the coming of a strangely-described people: -- Oathbringer, Interlude I His grandfather had told him legends of lost sailors who lived on a hidden island near the Origin. They were foretold to return to Roshar when night was darkest to reclaim the lost lands of Natanan. There are a number of as-of-yet unattributed Death Rattles that seem to refer to an endless night, an endless storm, and lights failing. I believe they may be related to Puuli's family prophecy. Emphasis mine. The day was ours, but they took it. Stormfather! You cannot have it. The day is ours. They come, rasping, and the lights fail. Oh, Stormfather! Above silence, the illuminating storms—dying storms—illuminate the silence above. So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life… Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us. I'm cold. Mother, I'm cold. Mother? Why can I still hear the rain? Will it stop? The darkness becomes a palace. Let it rule! Let it rule! They are aflame. They burn. They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame. Burn, burn, burn… The last two could instead refer to the Fused accepting Odium & the coming of the Ashynites to Roshar, respectively. However, Death Rattles typically (not always) refer to future events, not past ones. source So, to clarify: I believe there will be some sort of cataclysmic event on Roshar, probably during or after the end of Stormlight 5. This event will involve the death or otherwise removal of the Stormfather, which will render the highstorms impotent. They will no longer renew spheres with stormlight, and there will simply be an unceasing storm. Similar to the Weeping, but stronger. In addition to this or perhaps because of the chaos it will cause, Odium's forces will seize the majority of the Rosharan continent, leaving Urithiru as the sole bastion of the forces aligned with Honor. This, I believe, is the event prophesied elsewhere in the series as the Night of Sorrows. I believe that Puuli's family prophecy is related to this event. Puuli's prophecy is not directly in reference to it, but instead referencing another event that will happen concurrently to what I described above. Question is . . . Is this referring to human sailors from the Natanan area, long lost and coming with Stormlight when none else exists on the main continent? Perhaps with the Stormfather injured or dead, the Origin is the only place to retrieve Stormlight? However, if this is the case, why are these peoples described as "coming to destroy"? Or… Is this a prophecy about the Fused & Singers coming to reclaim their ancestral lands? It would certainly make sense for the Fused to have Voidlight even if the Radiants are somehow being denied Stormlight. The Singers reclaiming Natanan could certainly be described as "reclaiming ancestral lands". The confusing thing to me is the primary characterization of these mysterious invaders - "sailors lost on an infinite sea". This does not appear to refer to any culture on Roshar that we are familiar with, except perhaps the Uvara from the story of Wandersail, told to Kaladin by Hoid. Hoid is evasive on the historicity of this story. Furthermore, the Uvara are never said to have been great sailors or to have been originated from sailors, only that they live on a ring of islands far from the main continent of Roshar. Is this story apocryphal, or could it hint at another civilization on Roshar? Is there another solution that I haven't considered? Do you think either of these theories make sense, separately or together? Please let me know in the comments. Thank you for reading!

What I mean is that Moash did not see Elhokar's character development in the way that the reader does. Moash does not see Elhokar admit that he was a bad king and that he was trying to change. Besides, swearing an Oath doesn't automatically make you a good person either. Look at the modern Skybreakers or Malata as an example. I'm not making things up, and I am not trying to justify Moash's actions. Just offering a different perspective.

This is a great point, and it sort of plays into the ideal of Intent in the Cosmere, thematically speaking. Adolin killing Sadeas may have been objectively bad (and also murder), but he did it for "the right reasons". Sadeas was a bad, selfish man who would only weaken the alliance that Adolin is fighting for. Therefore, his actions can be considered good. Moash killing Elhokar is seen as objectively evil by the reader because we also see Elhokar actually trying to improve. Moash doesn't have this benefit, but he is acting out of pure vengeance anyway. So, bad. But, to a certain extent, we all view these things through a certain lens. It's interesting to try and view these events in a different way, which is why I really appreciate this topic.

I think it's pretty clear that OP is saying Szeth went from a family of famers, the most highly respected position in Shinovar, to being trained in combat with the Honorblades. The fact that being a farmer is respected and being a solider is looked down upon is indisputable. Szeth did not become the deadliest fighter on the planet while plowing a field, dude. That is the point. Don't be pedantic.

Thanks for posting bestie I really love this comparison; the more you look, the more you see. I think one more thing that is interesting to think about is how neither of these characters have a support system. Moash kills, betrays, or otherwise abandons everyone who could have been a friend to him. Szeth, after being banished from his homeland, appears to have no friends at all, and possibly no living family. He is truly alone. I think Brandon is doing something thematic here along the typical themes of Stormlight - I am thinking of a quote from Rhythm of War: To get better, to improve, to overcome your issues. You need to want to change first, but you don't need to fight alone. Perhaps there is redemption available for both these poor men, if they want it. And get my guy Szeth a therapist. He needs it.

I feel like Kelsier will definitely end up being one of those "Hero in his own POV, villain to others" characters. Seeing his actions, or the effects of his actions, will make him seem bad. But if we get a book where we get to see his side of the story, we would see a noble cause or some other sort of justification.

I'd like to talk briefly about Thaidakar's mental state in light of what we learned in RoW, mainly that Thaidakar is Kelsier. We know for certain that cognitive shadows, unless other preventative or restorative measures are taken, can become 'insane' due to the length of time that they have been alive as well as their very nature as Cognitive entities. We see this with the Fused: they have been alive for so long that they are slow to change and adapt. They seem to become more like spren as time goes on, which is to say that they gravitate towards an "Intent" and find it difficult to deviate from that. The Pursuer is a good example of this: his entire purpose and drive is vengeance. We also see a peculiar type of insanity with the Heralds, in that they seem to be affected by how living people (Physical entities) think about and view them. This, again, is similar to spren, which are concepts given form. We do not know the exact nature of the Heralds' insanity, but they each seem to act inversely to their supposed divine attributes. Kalak, known to be resolute, becomes indecisive. Shalash, patron of the arts, destroys artwork of herself. Jezrien, the leader, becomes a homeless drunk. Ishar, a spiritual leader, thinks himself to be a God. What I wonder is how Survivorism and the myths surrounding Kelsier's continual persistence have affected his mental state. A quote from the movie Alien: Will this focus on survival above all else lead Kelsier down a dark path? Has it already? We know Kelsier influenced the Southern Scadrians to "Survive", and became their god as well. And as we learned in RoW, Kelsier is searching for a way to fix his "problem", which is said to be similar to the Herald's own insanity. Has Kelsier started to go insane himself but is still sane enough to try and stop it?

I am pretty late to this, but I'd like to clarify that Pushing someone using their Metalminds or even Hemalurgic spikes is totally possible without direct Shardic intervention, it just requires a stupid amount of power. Marasi does it in BoM. Relevant text:

I really think you’re onto something here. I’m not sure how deep the connection (heh) truly goes, but I think that the parallel that something is “missing” from the Threnodite Cognitive Shadows (making them into Shades) and BAM being captured (creating Deadeyes on Roshar) is strong. In both cases, something fundamental has been torn away from what should be a fairly standard process. I am not sure what you are asking here. I think you may be misconstruing exactly what makes Spren and Cognitive Shadows different, as they are indeed not the same thing. Spren are little bits of sentient Investiture, and Cognitive Shadows are essentially a (human or singer) Spiritweb that has been infused with enough Investiture that it persists beyond when it normally “should”. I could be wrong, but I don’t think a Spren could even be a Cognitive Shadow, as they don’t “die” in the traditional sense. Anyway, good post.

Just a little thing to add. - The Way of Kings, Chapter 2

Lately I have been thinking about the two brands of Fused that we have not yet seen on screen - Tension & Division. I believe this is intentional by Brandon, as I don’t think we have seen any Knight Radiants use these powers either, but today I would like to discuss what each brand of Fused might look like and how they might utilize their powers. Tension I can imagine a Tension fused having long, tentacle-like protrusions from their arms that are quite floppy. They could whip this “tentacle” at any enemy, wrapping it around them, and then use Tension to stiffen it, trapping their foe. Another arm could be swung to the side, where the tentacle is stiffened in order to act like a blade. The Fused could then stab or slice at their trapped foe. I could also see this same method being applied, but instead of carapace, it is long hair that is used, like how the Nex-im uses hair as clothing-wrap when they reform their bodies. Alternatively, perhaps this brand of Fused wears specific clothing, like how the Heavenly Ones nearly always appear in long, flowing robes. I imagine this clothing to be cut into many strips, not unlike a mistcloak, than can then be stiffened and used to trap or attack enemies as I have described above. I would imagine that, especially if these Fused use hair or carapace with their surge, they would not “use up” much Voidlight, and are able to fight indefinitely. If clothing is used as a weapon, they would perhaps need to recharge periodically. The overall appearance of these “Ones of Tension” would really depend on if it is hair or carapace that is used with the surge, or perhaps not at all. I am not going to speculate too much on this, but I encourage others to do so. Division I imagine Division Fused as having a sort of “heavy plate” version of carapace, such that it covers their entire body, leaving only a slit for the eyes, the palms of the hands, and the soles of the feet uncovered. They would sort of be opposite of the Makay-im in this way. The reasoning for this would be to protect them from the explosions and physical destruction that they could cause. Under this heavy carapace they are protected from shrapnel & partially from shockwaves. This thick carapace would not conduct electricity well, and would provide some measure of insulation from fire or other great heat. I am not sure what this type of Fused would do specifically with their surge, but I would guess it is like the Heavenly Ones, and that it is not very much changed from the version of the surge that the Knights Radiant can access. They can degrade and burn both living & nonliving material, they can almost certainly create fire and lightning, and may be able to cause small (or large) explosions. I expect that since applications of this surge are typically external, this brand of Fused would need to recharge Voidlight similarly to the Nex-im. What do you think about about these Fused we have yet to see? Fingers crossed they show up in Stormlight 5.

So, here's my thought process. 16 years before Alloy of Law, Harmony sends Lessie to meet Wax. Shadows of Self occurs 1 year after AoL, and that is when Wax states "I'm not Harmony's hands, I'm His sword." Bands of Mourning occurs 6 months after SoS. I would imagine The Lost Metal takes place shortly after BoM, less than a year in my estimate. So for the events we are concerned with in Era 2, this is a total time period of 18 years, roughly. Harmony and Hoid have the conversation about Harmony crafting a sword in RoW, SA5 happens basically immediately after, then there is a roughly 20 year time skip between SA5 and SA6. Era 2 will occur either during the time skip, or shortly thereafter. Perhaps SA6 or even SA7, but we just don't know yet. I think that leaves plenty of time for the timeline to workout as I stated above.

I totally agree. I thought this during basically the entire time Kelek was onscreen in RoW - I couldn't help but think that this guy talks like he is from modern day Earth. I sort of imagined him just smacking gum the entire time he was talking, too (that's not canon tho obviously haha).

Yes, Lessie and Wax met 16 years before the events of Alloy of Law. Huh. A significant number for Scadrial. I never noticed that before.

And canonically, Wax saying this would occur after Harmony had this discussion with Hoid about 'crafting a sword'. The timeline isn't set in stone yet, but I believe that at this point when Hoid & Harmony are exchanging letters Wax would be a young man in the Roughs trying to prove himself as a lawman. Strong evidence for Wax being the sword Harmony speaks of, I think.

Thank you! I started a twitter bot for quotes from the cosmere, this one popped into my head immediately

"The world ended, and Shallan was to blame." - Words of Radiance, Chapter 10. Great theory.

I think I tend to side with you on this: we know the “Child of Tanavast” thing is significant, and people seem to think it implies genetic ancestry to the Vessel, but I am of the opinion (especially with some new context in Rhythm of War) that it instead refers to Kaladin’s disposition. Kaladin is extremely Honorable, very close to Tanavast’s chosen Intent, and this is what the Stormfather is referring to.

I’m not sure I see your connection between the discarded shells and Kaladin. I believe this to be more of flavor text - crustaceans are very normal to Rosharans, their metaphors would reflect that. I wouldn’t look too deep into it. However, a connection between Kaladin and Honor... I believe Kaladin is the only one that the Stormfather refers to as a “Child of Tanavast” instead of a “Child of Honor”. Now that could be significant.

I agree with this. Szeth doesn’t have the same length of contact with Nightblood as someone like Vasher, so he may not notice an oddness in Nightblood’s intoxication level. And as Karger said, it’s not as if Nightblood would really be able tell that something weird happened either.

We truly are collectively losing our minds, are we not? What will we all do in the 10 year time gap between SA5 and SA6? I shudder to imagine

Hello. Prepare to be sad, because the theory I am about to lay out is not a happy one. I have outlined the bones of this theory as a comment on another post, but I hope to put it together here in a more readable and cohesive format. I do hope no one has put forth this theory before, though I did not see it when I searched. Here we go. We have seen many Death Rattles come to pass, and I will not touch on those for now. We have a few that do not seem to have happened yet, and I think a few of them are related. The Death Rattles I think are connected are intertwined in two complimentary theories. 1. Dalinar will fail the Contest of Champions and become a Fused. 2. Post-SA5, Odium will preside (perhaps as the sole Shard) over a ruined Roshar, where a rainstorm without end covers the continent. Let’s begin with the appropriate Death Rattles: This Death Rattle is the core of my theory. Odium will appoint a “suckling child” as his Champion, and in order to win the Contest, Dalinar would have to kill the child. According to the terms of the agreement, if Dalinar kills Odium’s Champion, Odium will be sealed on Braize, which is what the “gaining us further breath to draw” refers to. This implies my predicted ending to the Contest - that Dalinar cannot bring himself to kill Odium’s champion, and so Odium wins. Night reigns. I believe this is also a reference not specifically to the Contest of Champions, but to Odium ruling over Roshar. And now, a quote from RoW from Rayse-Odium: Now, Dalinar does have to die in order to become a Fused - I am not sure exactly how this will play out. I doubt this “child” will be capable of killing Dalinar, but it could be that Dalinar eventually dies of natural causes and at that point joins the Fused. I believe, however, that Dalinar will become a Fused at the point of the Contest of Champions, death or not. The consequences of Dalinar becoming a Fused will be dire - I think that this will directly or indirectly cause the death of the Stormfather. Without the Stormfather to guide the highstorm, I believe it will cease to exist, being replaced by a constant rainstorm that brings no Stormlight. Two Death Rattles that I think refer to this event: This is highlighting not only Odium’s victory, but also the never ending storm & the slow failing of gemstones that will not be renewed. This Death Rattle shows the confidence that Dalinar’s party felt going into the Contest - and the immediate betrayal when they are outmaneuvered. This is tenuous, but I also believe that the lamentations of “Stormfather” are not curses, but are longingly calling for a being who no longer exists. “They come, rasping” refers to the Fused & Singer armies, which Odium will not hold back from attempting to destroy the Knights Radiant. Lights failing, of course, refers to Radiants using the Stormlight and it not being renewed by the highstorm. This, I presume, is from Dalinar’s perspective. The waters surging beneath are from the never-ending storm, and the child crying is Odium’s champion. Dalinar is weeping for.. obvious reasons. And finally ... Honor is dead, and Cultivation is either dead or beyond caring at this point. Taravangian rules. Odium reigns. (How is Taravangian the Broken One? I admit that I am unsure. I concede that the “broken one” could refer instead to someone who imperfectly reassembles the pieces of a Shard. Someone like Dalinar. It is difficult to say at this point.) I suspect that may have come off as a little disjointed, let me lay out the full theory more clearly: Rayse-Odium’s grand plan is for Roshar to serve as a training ground for an army that will conquer the Cosmere. This army needs to be strong not only to attack, but also to defend: the Surges are incredibly powerful, and Stormlight is an easily renewable source of free Investiture. This makes Roshar a very valuable target. Rayse-Odium meant to strike first, conquer the Cosmere before they knew what was happening. Ideally, Dalinar is instrumental in this plan as a Fused Blackthorn. Taravangian-Odium’s plans are a little bit more careful. He still needs Dalinar as a Fused, and he also needs a strong and hardened people to battle against others in the Cosmere. To that end, he will let the Fused and the Radiant coalition duke it out on the planet even after he has won. A constant war only does him good - the two people will only strengthen as time goes on, like two knives sharpened against one another. Furthermore, by destroying the Stormfather (and therefore the Highstorm), he takes away the thing that makes Roshar so valuable to those who would wish to conquer it - easy Investiture. Because he can provide Voidlight freely to those he wishes, this resource is not stolen nearly as easily. Dalinar as a commander of the Fused will travel from planet to planet, conquering those he cannot pacify with diplomacy. Odium needs an army of more than just Roshar, after all. I believe this is how the Stormlight Archive will proceed going forward - Odium ruling over the planet, and the Radiants adapting in some way to this new environment. One last thing. I would like to include a very interesting tidbit from the Rhythm of War release event, which is available here on youtube. This evidence is from a reading of the eventual Sixth of the Dusk sequel, and is obviously unpublished and not-canon. For these reasons, I will hide it behind spoiler tags. Please read at your own risk. However, I do think the implications are ... interesting. Sixth of the Dusk Sequel Spoilers (unpublished) Thank you, as always, for reading. I hope you find this theory thought-provoking and wish to hear your criticisms in the comments.

I’m not sure how much of this we are allowed to discuss, so I will put it under spoilers for Dragonsteel (Unpublished). Mods, please feel free to strike me down like the poor sod I am. Dragonsteel: