NameIess

Nameless was ready for this and teleported Roman's little sister in the way of the punch.

Gemhearts are used for soulcasting. That's basically the only reason the Alethi want them. So it's safe to assume that Soulcasters can use larger gemstones, and commonly do, as such gemstones don't break as easily. Every time I remember a Lightweaver put an illusion on someone, they are very close to them, so that at least is likely a requirement. Fair. I'd say it's more difficult than Kaladin flying, as Fourth ideal Jasnah might not have figured it out yet. Or perhaps she just needs enough Stormlight, which she didn't have access to. I doubt travel between the realms is going to be something any Radiant can do casually. You suggested that a Stoneward could stop a Mistborn from attacking them from a distance by creating a hole in the ground and hiding inside. No, ambushing a Mistborn is not off the table. We can both agree how that would go, I think. Mistborn gets a Shardblade to the spine. Why would it be different for different attributes? Sure, 10 minutes of one attribute might be less Investiture than 10 minutes of another attribute, but if you have a small amount of one attribute and a large amount, they'll both be multiplied the same amount. Now, different metals will have different burning speeds, but with duraluminum that's not a problem. Well, considering that she managed to search the entire temple for Wax, I'd say you're making assumptions about how long it was from her perspective are wrong. Now consider that Marasi was using only the investiture stored in 1/16th of a larger than average spearhead. Full plate armor made entirely of steel contains much more metal than that. And it's not like the Mistborn needs to use as much as Marasi did. Five or ten times normal speed will do just fine to make the Radiant practically helpless. How long does it take Kaladin to become competent with his lashings? Sure, the Fabrial would allow them to use lashings immediately, but to become good enough to actually use them in a fight against a Mistborn? That took Kaladin quite a long time, and he's Kaladin. Add on whatever difficulties or limitations come from the fabrial, and it's taking the Radiant a few weeks to become competent, minimum. I mean, they're literally not. Fabrials give users access to extra Invested abilities. They work off Investiture. They're magictech. Just like medallions are, if less powerful in combat. Just to reiterate my beliefs about the Radiant vs Mistborn debate again, they are as follows: Radiants below Third ideal stands little chance against a Mistborn. Third ideal, the fight's pretty even. Fourth ideal, Radiants have a huge advantage, and the only situation I can really see the Mistborn winning is when they have proper equipment for breaking Plate and enough Atium to last until the Radiant runs out of Stormlight. Or if they have access to medallions. A steel/gold/pewter combo would be best, although steel/gold or just steel would work as well. Access to gold, nicrosil, pewter, zinc, or chromium might let them win as well, but that's less certain. (Iron and Duraluminum might work too, but that one is really a long shot)

I don't think it'd be that hard to summon a Shardblade, as there's a very narrow vulnerable point. Shardblades are still powerful enough to be worth the risk of using. And if a Radiant's spren dies, I doubt they'll be able to use a backup weapon. Well, I guess that could work. But metal armor isn't going to be very good against a Mistborn, even if it's been treated with Tension/Cohesion. Do people normally break contact while grappling with knives? I figured they'd grab the Radiant's arms, tack them to the ground. Kinda like what Adolin did to Sadeas. The Radiant'll have a hard time pulling out their knife while actively getting stabbed by someone who's easily twice as strong as they are. So is Yolish lightweaving not a magic system, since it was never tied to a specific Shard? Maybe, but you wouldn't say: humans can be used to operate the tuning forks, and they're animals. Did lower spren form naturally, or were they formed by Adonalsium? By that logic, the nahel bond isn't a magic system, because they simply use a naturally occurring bond to their advantage. Their issue would not come from hemalurgy being too dangerous for her to use as a Dawnshard. Source? Forgers make soulstamps, which channel the Dor. They themselves aren't any more invested than a normal human, so far as I know. Did they tell her to avoid Soulcasters? She has plenty of those right next to her. Why not tell her that? You misunderstand my argument. All I'm saying is that if we give Radiants access to all of their magic tech and equipment, then the Mistborn should get the same advantage. And the Mistborn with compounding from medallions is much more dangerous than the Radiant with all the surges from Fabrials.

Then she got pulled into a black hole by her cape.

I I don't know if I agree that warforms are as strong as someone with pewter, but regardless, I never said that coins would get through Plate quickly. It would take, as I said, a very very long time. Bigger pieces of metal would work much better. Yes, but he could potentially do it. With a slightly higher caliber than average pistol. A shotgun has a lot more force behind it than that. And the Mistborn doesn't need to do it in one shot. Three very large gemstones. In fact, that's what they were hunting Chasmfiends for. The gemhearts were used for soulcasting, if you remember. And Kazah soulcast a hole large enough for some dinghies to get through, not a large ship. And we saw the soulcasters create a section of a stone block. If this was so easy, why haven't Lightweavers done it? Don't Lightweavers have to touch someone to put a Lightweaving on them? And getting too far away from the Lightweaver will still cause the illusion to dissipate, even if they do get it onto you. So what you're saying is that it's extremely difficult for even a fourth ideal Radiant to transfer back from the Cognitive realm? Jasnah had plenty of time when she was trapped in Shadesmar to try and figure out that problem, and yet she, one of the foremost scholars in all Roshar, couldn't do so. In any case, it will likely not be something they can do casually. Well, given that such speeds seem ridiculous, I'm going to say cannons are off the table. Well, nothing. But what benefit does hiding in a hole give the Radiant? Seriously, that's just a delaying tactic and doesn't provide any benefit. You have to come out of the hole to continue the fight. This is a theoretical argument, so if we wanted to, we could give the Mistborn access to Nightblood and a few thousand breaths and say they'd beat the Radiant. Or we could take away the Mistborn's metals and weapons and say they'd lose. I'm not really interested in debating those situations. The situation I'm interested in debating is a Mistborn with all 16 metals (maybe Atium too) and access to era 2 equipment against an average fourth ideal Radiant from around the same era. If you want to discuss a different scenario, feel free to. It is exponential. You fill a metalmind with a few minutes of speed, then burn it and get that multiplied back out. You store that multiplied speed in another metalmind, then burn that and it gets multiplied again. say compounding multiplies something by 10x, and you start out with ten minutes of attrbute. Burn it once, you have 100 minutes. Again, and you've got 1,000. Three more times, and you've got 1,000,000 minutes, or a little less than 700 days worth. Add in duraluminum to make the burn go by practically instantly, and you've got a completely full metalmind in maybe an hour or two. More powerful allomancers can simply burn their metals faster. If, as you say, duraluminum is instant, then a Mistborn will be able to compound just as well as TLR, if not better, as I doubt he used duraluminum. So? This is a theoretical situation. We don't know what Mistborn era 3 tech will look like. And even then, steel compounding is way more OP than surge fabrials. Well, seven hundred days of attribute is a hundred weeks, so that's like 30 medallions full, in maybe an hour. They've still got a few months before the Radiant manages to convince an Honorspren to transform into a gravitation fabrial and then learns to use said fabrial. I know. The context of that discussion was that a Radiant whose Plate was not summoned could be easily killed in a surprise attack by a Mistborn with Chromium, as a Radiant cannot summon Blade, or by extension Plate, while being leeched. I am aware of this. Spren have probably existed on Roshar since before the Splintering. However, I fail to see why the Shards leaving would also necessitate all of the sentient spren leaving, and no other spren.

But then the romans pulled out a cannonball.

Yeah, it will crack a little bit. Not a lot, but a little bit. That seems fairly consistent with what we see in the books. It would take absolutely forever to break Plate that way, but it would eventually work. Well, if we're giving the Radiant bullets and knowledge of how to make their spren into a gun barrel, or a gun barrel and spren bullets, then the Mistborn definitely gets a shotgun. Wax could break Plate in one shot from Vindication, so a shotgun shouldn't have any problems. Soulcasters use a lot of Stormlight, and make the barracks in sections. Tree sized plants will not be fine. Besides, how fast can a Radiant actually cause the plants to grow? I don't think we've ever seen anyone make plants grow at a speed that would be very difficult to dodge. Except it's not at all like that, because Lightweaving illusions are made of Investiture, and are not something that is being affected by Investiture. No, I don't think it will leech the Radiant, but yes, it will get rid of the illusion. Source? How fast can a Stoneward make stone move? upwards of 100 m/s? Alright, so the Radiant leaves air holes. What's stopping the Mistborn from just walking away and coming back later when the Radiant's not so prepared? What benefit does the Radiant get from bunkering down? Fair. So what? Is the average Radiant a Singer? Because I thought we were using average Radiants and average Mistborn. Both of which are human, except maybe Willshapers. Ten times speed? Compounding gives way more than ten times speed. It's exponential returns. otherwise TLR wouldn't be able to spend maybe an hour or two compounding youth every day and be fine, even ignoring the massively increased youth requirements placed upon him by his age. That's not even accounting for duraluminum, which will massively speed up compounding again. Besides that, no Radiant besides maybe a Skybreaker could get their hands on any Surge Fabrial besides a Soulcaster in as short a time as a week. And even if they did, A Mistborn would still be so much more powerful with gold and steel compounding that it wouldn't even be funny. Well, Shardblades are still indestructible, as the Raysium dagger was perfectly fine channeling anti-Voidlight. Some armor for Radiants of the Third ideal and below could make sense, but Tension/Cohesion treated armor would probably be less useful than normal steel for anyone besides a Stoneward. Mistborn carry knives. And, after checking RoW, it appears that Radiants do too. So Radiants can have knives. Still won't help them much when grappling with a Mistborn while being leeched. Magic systems don't have to be associated with one specific Shard. Feruchemy is of Ruin and Preservation. And besides, the spren you use has to come from a Shard. Larkin are sapient, I don't think referring to them as animals is entirely accurate. If all the Shards left Roshar, then either sapient spren would still be there, or no spren would still be there. Modern-day spren are made of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. Not just sapient spren, but all spren. Unless there's some spren from other Shards. Yes, I would. Singers have the ability to form a kind of bond with a spren that gives them various abilities and specializations, some mundane and some less so. Greatshells can bond with spren to make themselves lighter. That's a magic system. Bonding with spren in order to gain abilities. Just like Fabrials, trapping spren in order to use their attributes, is also a magic system. I'm sure that the Aimians wouldn't have an issue if Rysn started practicing hemalurgy. Or if she managed to connect herself to MaiPom enough to become a forger. Neither of those invested arts require the user to be invested. And the Aimians only wanted Rysn to avoid bonding a spren. They didn't say anything about needing to avoid all invested arts. I think we're arguing over semantics here. A modern-day Radiant could have access to fabrials, but they are not a part of the Radiant's natural powerset. A Mistborn could have access to medallions, but they are not part of their natural powerset. A Mistborn would be much more potent with medallions than a Radiant would be with surge fabrials. Whether or not you think fabrials are a magic system is up to a matter of philosophy: but Medallions and Fabrials are both magic, and both are available to a Mistborn and a Radiant respectively. If we let a Radiant have Fabrials, we should let the Mistborn have Medallions.

Well, at that point the force of impact would probably shatter the gemstone holding the deathspren. So as a whole not a very practical use of Fabrials. However, it would be deevy, which is all that really matters in the grand scale of things.

Hm. A bullet-sized gemstone might not be very effective. Heating fabrials require large gemstones to heat a room, and while deathspren bullets would obviously be better than normal bullets, even getting the Fabrial into the spiritweb via shooting someone might not allow it to have enough of an effect to warrant the cost. Might be good against people with healing powers though, if you could get big enough bullets.

How would one attract Deathspren into a Fabrial?

My favorite part is eating my dad's barbecue and watching the fireworks with my family.

So, question. How does one learn to juggle?

Wow. I once tried to read a brother the first book in the Five Kingdoms series, and I couldn't get past the first few chapters. You have some serious commitment.

Nameless slapped Thaidakar on the face. "Stop overreacting. You are so frustratingly human sometimes."

Plate doesn't bend, and the Radiant has enough mass that they won't get pushed backwards. So the full force of the coin will be transferred into the Plate, meaning it will crack a little. I agree that coins would be a rather inefficient way to crack Plate, but larger metal objects (swords, ingots, armor pieces, horshoes, etc.) could work quite well. That sounds really, really hard to aim, if it actually works. Also would be really Stormlight inefficient. Shardbow would be way better. Only person we've ever seen grow plants uses Lifelight, which probably works much more efficiently than Stormlight for that purpose. And growing enough plants to reasonably catch the Mistborn hovering maybe ten feet in the air would, again, take a lot of Stormlight. Chromium would get rid of that pretty quick. Travelling between realms is extremely difficult even for Jasnah, whose order is the best at Cognitive realms stuff. Unless they're fighting at an easy transfer point, this strategy won't work. I doubt this would work. Even if they could aim it, getting the stone to move fast enough to be practical would be difficult. So the Radiant doesn't need air and carries a weeks worth of water and food on them? The hypocrisy is that you give the Radiant tons of Stormlight, and don't allow the Mistborn tons of Pewter or other metals. And there are very few singer Radiants. That WoB doesn't say singer gemhearts are perfect gemstones, it says that a similar mechanic is occurring. I'm guessing that the similar mechanic is related to the Singer's spiritweb being built to hold investiture better. The taboo comes from the fact that they have gemhearts, and in the past humans desecrated their dead to get those gemhearts. Humans don't really need a reason to want shiny gemstones. Besides that, current Radiants have no idea that singer gemhearts may have something weird going on, and almost certainly aren't going to test those gemhearts to find out. Radiant spren aren't in the CR, they're mostly in the physical. So they don't have any distance to teleport, as they're near to the Radiant in the physical realm. I'm not saying that Surge Fabrials are impossible to get, or that they don't exist. I'm not saying that Radiants can't use the Oathgates. All I'm saying is that in the time it takes a Radiant to get their hands on a Gravitation Fabrial, a Mistborn could easily get a medallion that gives F-gold and F-steel and compound up a full set of steel plate armor made out of completely full steel metalminds, thereby basically nullifying the Radiant's Shardblade even disregarding the usefullness of the feruchemical attributes.

For the purposes of this thread, we're assuming a Mistborn exists. Furthermore, since that Mistborn exists, I am assuming they would have all the equipment that would be standard for a Mistborn if they existed in era 2, which is the current period we're at. I could extrapolate to the future, but we haven't seen what an era 3 Mistborn would look like, so I prefer, for the purpose of not basing my arguments entirely on assumptions, to use equipment that an era 2 Mistborn would use, and give the Radiant equipment that they have been shown to use around the same time period. If you want to give a Radiant all ten surge fabrials, that's fine. However, the argument I am interested in pursuing is the argument between a Mistborn that has reasonable era 2 equipment and a Radiant that has reasonable SA period equipment. Not really a difference, since Fabrials are a distinct magic system from Surgebinding, only tangentially related just as Feruchemy and Hemalurgy are to Allomancy. If you disagree, feel free to explain how they work with normal physics. They are a system with rules that utilizes Investiture, and those rules are completely different from Radiancy. And while surge fabrials might not require initiation into Radiancy, they require something that's almost the same: a willing nahel spren. So not something that anyone with requisite knowledge could do. Something that anyone with requisite knowledge and requisite resources could do. Just like medallions. Most locations have metal, unless they're fighting in an empty field or something like that. Even then, enough coins on the ground will give plenty of anchor points. Yeah. So not incredible Radiant reflexes. Just something that only one order, which could already prevent the fly around shooting coins thing by flying themselves, can do. If you give them ridiculous era 3-4 levels of knowledge and skill with their powers, plus infinite stormlight, sure. Those are gemstones. And if that doesn't work, then fine, nicrosil will do the same thing, except it specifically works on active investiture. Not sure what duraluminum-level slickness is going to look like, but I doubt it'll give the Radiant a significant advantage. Also, I see a bit of hypocrisy here, even ignoring the fact that you think a Radiant can carry a weeks worth of stormlight without perfect gemstones. So Radiants commonly carry perfect gemstones? Uh, no, they don't. They carry a few pouches worth of normal gemstones, that they can go through in maybe 30 minutes of using their powers in combat. (Based on Kal during the fight at Hearthstone). Fourth ideal will extend that, I'll be generous and say it doubles it to an hour, but still, why does the Radiant get tons of perfect gemstones filled with more than a week of stormlight, something that current Radiants have very restricted access to if any at all, when the Mistborn doesn't get a few days of Pewter, something that they have very easy access to. Literally just go to any metallurgist, pay them some money, walk out with a weeks worth of pewter. As opposed to scavenging the land or dealing with spren hoarders like the Honorspren to get perfect gemstones Instantly? I thought they had to cross the distance, not teleport. Which they could do pretty quickly with their speed, but still a few crucial seconds you might be without a Blade. So because the Herald had a Progression fabrial, that means that any Radiant can have any kind of surge fabrial they want? When we haven't seen any Surge fabrials besides Soulcasters and Progression, even in the hands of the Heralds?

Nameless looked confused. "I didn't do anything to you. Are you going crazy? Well, I guess you've always been crazy, but are you going more crazy?"

Nameless burned that book too.

So Nameless turned himself into an Unknown for a week and found the book. Then he destroyed the book with hidden power fire after reading it.

Catholic in this context is using it's literal definition: including a wide variety of things; all-embracing. So that phrase basically means one holy, universal, and apostolic Church

They already did that, didn't they? Rider calyrex gets unnerve and chilling/grim neigh depending on whether it's shadow or ice rider Calyrex.

Shardbows would struggle to hit a Mistborn moving in the air. None of the Mistborn we've seen have struggled with having too many powers, not even Elend, who wasn't exactly the most skilled of Mistborn. They use their powers pretty instinctively after they get practice with them. If you can name one time in the books where we've seen this be an issue with any allomancer, I'd be surprised. They can pull metal too, so that's two directions off the bat. Add in circling around the Radiant, and that's the rest of the directions too. Kaladin dodged hundreds of arrows fired from a distance, and still took hits on both his shield and his armor. And the rest of Bridge 4 (normal people) were able to do pretty much the same thing. Given that, I'd say that say a Mistborn could definitely use A-pewter to dodge just as well, or just deflect all the arrows with A-steel. And as for the Radiant being able to dodge metal from all directions, Kal didn't do anything near that. The arrows were fired from a single direction, and he was at a pretty good distance from the archers. The Mistborn is firing coins from all directions, and they're pretty close. Pewter's harder to get than Stormlight? I'd say that's highly dependent on the planet you're on. Anywhere besides Roshar, it's almost entirely impossible to get Stormlight. On the other hand, a Mistborn can get the proper metals on basically any planet that has metallurgy. Atium is limited yeah, but you don't need that when you're flying around the Radiant whose best option of attack is a Shardbow, a weapon that very few if any Radiants are proficient in. And a Mistborn doesn't have to burn all their metals to use their powers. Pewter only has such an effect when you've been pushing your body too hard. Such as by sprinting a normally three-day trip. A Mistborn'd be fine if it ran out in the middle of a fight, at least so long as they hadn't been using it to not sleep for an extended period. Well, I'm assuming that making direct contact with the Stormlight the Radiant coats themselves in in order to use Abrasion would make leeching that Stormlight a whole lot easier. Why would the Mistborn attack? They can just watch from a safe distance and wait for the Radiant to run out of Stormlight. I guess that might work. Or it might just give the Mistborn an exploitable opening, as the Mistborn can probably sense spren using A-bronze. Even if they can't, a Mistborn can easily carry days worth of pewter on them, so running out's not as much of an issue as you think. And again, a Shardbow is far from standard equipment. We haven't seen any Radiants that use them so far. The Radiant's going to want their spren close, so they can be immediately summoned if the Mistborn pulls a sneak attack. Radiants that we've seen do not carry these devices. Allomancers that we've seen utilize aluminum and guns. Besides that, Surge replicating fabrials besides Soulcasters are basically extinct, and even Soulcasters are rare to the point that they would almost never be risked on a battlefield. To make a gravitation fabrial, it seems you need a Radiant spren. You think they're going to waste an Honorspren on a fabrial that only dully imitates Radiant powers? Also, if we're giving Radiants tech like that, the Mistborn gets a medallion that gives F-gold and F-steel. And they can refill it via compounding.

Eof was the secret ruler of TLT. Everything in the thread had been manipulated by him in some way.

Nameless seriously considered killing Thaidakar. But in the end, he didn't. This was all according to Eof's plan.

Nameless looked into the future with the force and saw Darth Barnacles entire plan.