Gilphon

Well, I mean, yes, there is the ambient Investiture, but- And now you've made me get into the whole other theory I referred to above- I actually think that Autonomy is spread their Investiture everywhere in a way that the other Shards aren't. Specifically, since we know that Bavadin is invested in a star and spreading the Investiture through the starlight, and something with the right know-how could use Autonomy's Investiture from anywhere you can see the star, there should be a extra Autonomy Investiture collecting everywhere that isn't being used for anything. A very small amount at a time, but if it stays unused for thousands of years, that trickle of power is going to add up something formidable. Making an Avatar at that point wouldn't even necessarily take conscious effort- or even a conscious decision- on Bavarian's part, which fits because We know it's possible for an Avatar to be formed without a conscious decision. All it would take would be something discovering and choosing to claim all that power. Or that not happening for long enough that the Investiture develops a mind on its own, but I think the former case is what happened on Roshar. Additionally, we know that Odium's working with somebody here; his shocked cry when Dalinar ascends is 'We killed you!', after all. That didn't strike me as a 'me and my minions' kind of 'we', y'know? More like a 'me and my allies' kind of 'we'. I know that's a bit vague, but I hope you're following me on it. So, like, if he has an ally helping him on Roshar, surely Autonomy is the most likely candidate, right? Hold apparently has a vendetta against both Bavadin and Rayse, so surely it follows that if Rayse is positively inclined towards any of them, it would be Bavadin. Especially because Autonomy's just been created a bunch of not-a-threat-to-Odium Mini-Shards rather than challenging his desired position as overall top dog. There's grey area here. I'd argue that's more like Autonomy just didn't force Ba-Ado-Mishram to betray Odium; that they gave BAM the tools to free the Singers from oppression and otherwise didn't force their will onto her, which, for a splinter of Odium means sticking with Odium's overall agenda. (It should be possible to be a splinter of two different Shards, shouldn't it? No, yeah, it has to be, because surely it's possible for something to be a splinter of Harmony. So I suppose you say could that under my theory, BAM would be a splinter of whatever the Autonomy+Odium shard name would be. Rebellion? Defiance?) Lastly, I want to take this moment to thank you for engaging me on this. You're helping me work out the kinks in the idea, and really the worst case scenario for a theory like this is if nobody cares enough to voice their disagreements.

I like this idea. Like, 'new technological discoveries' has to refer to new Fabrials, right? Nothing else that could be discovered on Roshar could be reasonably described as technological. And certainly Nergaoul could be used to fuel a pretty powerful one. I hope they're not dumb enough to try to use Nergaoul to power Urithiru.

That's the point of the WoB I quoted; the standard way Avatars are created is by altering something that already exists. What I'm suggesting is Autonomy's usual MO. Like how the Avatars we've seen elsewhere were well-known figures in locals religion before they became Avatars. And Ba-Ado-Mishram is definitely subordinate to Odium- and since Avatars have their own will and mind, Autonomy wouldn't have changed that, so I'd say it's well within the 'when he's in charge' clause of what you said. It's Autonomy saying 'hey, let me work my magic with your minion there a bit- I don't worry, she'll still answer to you- and help you finally beat Honor'. (Or, well, I actually have a theory that says there should be a bunch of unused Autonomy investiture on every planet that doesn't already have an Avatar, so it might even have more along the lines of Ba-Ado-Mishram saying 'hey boss, I found a great new power source!', but I don't really want to get super into that because its a mostly separate theory.) And, well, you're gonna have justify how empowering Ba-Ado-Mishram and starting a Desolation could've been meant to hurt Odium. Like certainly it backfired horribly if that was the idea, given that that's the generation that saw Honor get killed.

I mean, there's not really any mention of those spheres being perfect gems, and I kinda feel like we would've seen some sign of it by now if they were. Like Navani thinking 'I wonder why he got so obsessed with with hunting down the most valuable gems in the world?' or something like that. Which is another reason I don't think they contained any Unmade. Well, he might've had Yelig-nar, since that one voluntarily hangs out in non-perfect gems and Aesudan got hold of it in Kholinar somehow, but I doubt he had any of the others.

For the record, I don't think that Gavilar's black spheres contained BAM, or indeed any of the Unmade. I think they just contained Voidspren. More specifically, I think the one he gave to Eshonai contained Ulim, thus explaining how Ulim had been managing talking to Venli for years before the rest of the Voidspren got off Braize. I feel like Gavilar would've treated a sphere containing of the Unmade a bit more casually than handing it off to a random translator, y'know? And, heck, given how he was talking, he might've just released BAM himself if he had the chance. As for where BAM's prison is- it was mentioned that a Bank in Celebrant has some perfect gems, so that seems like a possibility.

You're misunderstanding what I'm suggesting, I think. I'm not suggesting that Autonomy created Ba-Ado-Mishram, but that they co-opted Ba-Ado-Mishram by heaping a bunch of investiture on top of her. Which would be why she suddenly manifested new powers. So I'm not saying anything that would contradict the idea of the Unmade being of Odium. And, if we make the assumption that Voidlight is in indeed Odium-specific, I don't see any reason to assume that Light from a creature with a bunch of Odium investiture and a bunch of Autonomy investiture would be so dramatically different from Voidlight that people who had no first hand knowledge with Voidlight couldn't possibly confuse the two. Like I could imagine that if any of the Fused had been around at the time, they would've noticed some differences, but nobody else would necessarily know. Indeed, I don't even think we'd be looking at any new Forms; just the Investiture fuelling the forms acting in different ways. Like how Voidlight and Stormlight can fuel the same set of Surges.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to treat Connection in general as something Autonomy is against- it's a pretty fundamental property of the Spiritual realm. And is, y'know, the principle behind the Aviar, which is a magic system we know is more about Autonomy than it is any other Shard. And surely every Avatar is Connected to Autonomy as a whole, right? I think it's fine by them as long as you're not using it for mind control or oppression or anything else that's obviously contrary to their intent. As for Voidlight... well, for one, I'm not 100% convinced that Voidlight is Odium specific. We haven't gotten what I would consider a clear explanation for what it is- it might be a general form of corrupted Stormlight. But even leading that aside, even after becoming an Avatar, Ba-Ado-Mishram would still be an Unmade and would therefore still be heavily linked to Odium. So even if what she was giving the Singers wasn't exactly the same as Voidlight, it would've had similarities. Surely it would've been close enough that Radiants who only knew Voidlight from 2000 year old historical documents wouldn't have been able to tell the difference, right?

So here's an idea that's bubbled to the surface of my brain over the past few days because of reading new WoBs and listening to old Shardcast episodes: Odium’s Accomplice So, I can’t help but feel like the more we’ve learned, the harder it is to imagine Odium beating Honor without help. Like, back when they were the only Shards we never about on Roshar, sure, but with Cultivation helping him? Harder to imagine. And, indeed, it doesn’t seem like he was able take them both. It seems like trying got Odium trapped on Braize and then stuck in a stalemate for 8000 years. So the question becomes ‘what changed? What happened around the time of the False Desolation and Recreance that let Odium break the stalemate?’ Now, I’m not going to go too far afield for the answer. I’m going with a fairly common one. I think he had help from another Shard. He does, after all, say “We killed you!” when Dalinar ascends. Really it makes the most sense to assume somebody else helped him kill Honor. And nor am I going to go crazy with my assumptions about which Shard it was. It was mostly likely the one with a known tendency to meddle on other planets. The one that Hoid says he has a vendetta against on the same level as Rayse. Autonomy. But, of course, Autonomy’s MO isn’t to just wander over, or to help from a distance. If Autonomy had wanted to interfere with events on Roshar, they would’ve created an Avatar there. And that’s where we get problems. Surely if Odium had an ally like that waiting in the wings, we would’ve heard about it by now. Even if that Avatar is no longer a factor in the present day for whatever reason, they’d be some record an enormous new threat appearing out of nowhere. Either in folklore or in the Gemstone archive. And that’s when I thought ‘wait a minute, there totally is an entity that fits that bill!’ Ba-Ado-Mishram the Ascendant The False Desolation is a strange event. Look at the Gemstone Archive’s account of what caused it: BAM somehow Connected to the Parsh and starting supplying them with Voidlight? Remember, the Last Desolation was 2000 years ago at this point. So BAM spend 2000 years going ‘sure would be great if I could get some forms of power going. Oh well,’ and then just suddenly a Light bulb flash? That seems unlikely. No, it feels more likely to me that the Unmade had just now gained the power to do that. And surely it can’t be coincidence that she gained that power around the same time Honor started dying. And, since you no doubt see where I’m going with this by now, it’s worth mentioning that Avatars don’t have to created from scratch, but can be the result of heaping Investiture on a pre-existing being: And now, to explicitly spell out my conclusion: Autonomy turned Ba-Ado-Mishram into an Avatar, and used that to help Odium kill Honor. Supporting Evidence and Addressing Known Problems It’s always struck me as strange the Singers were so reliant on Ba-Ado-Mishram that sealing her lobotomized them all. This surely can’t have always been the case- if it was, the Listeners would’ve been affected as well. Indeed, it doesn’t seem to have been the case until the False Desolation. But for her to involve herself to completely and so quickly with the fate of an entire species strikes me as a lot of power, even for an Unmade. But for an Avatar? That seems more plausible. If BAM was indeed an Avatar, trapping her seems like it’s asking a lot, even for a perfect gem. But it seems like the perfect gems are indeed perfect- Honor’s drop didn’t lose any Stormlight at all over centuries. If so, it shouldn’t matter how powerful the being trapped inside is. There is a WoB out there that says that there are only the three Shards on Roshar. As far as I’m aware, that’s the only WoB that runs the risk of shooting this entire theory through the heart. I’m inclined to argue that the difference between a Shard and an Avatar is big enough that the theory can slip by that bullet I’m not sure if I’m strengthening my case or weakening it by saying this, but: Surely it’s reasonable to describe the post-BAM singers as being totally deprived of autonomy. So it’s fitting if it was caused by them losing Autonomy. So, what do you guys think? Am I on to something, or have I gone insane?

My assumption has been that they found them in Stormseat's ruins- there's an entire city buried under crem that the rest of the world didn't know about. One that appears to have been abandoned overnight. Also, it's worth emphasizing that the Parshendi weren't lobotomized alongside the rest of their race- presumably because they were hidden well enough that Ba-Ado-Mishram wasn't able to Connect with them, so they weren't affected when she was sealed.

I'm basing that on Arclo's line in his little speech to Lift: I.E., he uses hordelings to store memories, and implies that his mental capacity is finite but can be increased by making new Hordelings. Surely it stands to reason that if he lost the specialized hordelings he's referring to, he'd lose the mental capacity that they granted him. Which leads me to suspect that 'how many hordelings need to die to end the Sleepless as an entity' is more of a philosophical question than a mechanical one. It's a question that quickly gets into Ship of Theseus stuff. I'm sure that if you asked Arclo, he'd say something along of 'how many humans needs to be killed in order for a city to die'?

Arclo certainly had a whole bunch of Hordelings that weren't part of his humanoid facade- enough that I don't think that losing the 'body' would do irreparable damage to him. But I do feel like killing a large proportion of the Hordelings should effectively kill the Sleepless. Like their memories and thoughts are all stored in cremling brains, so if they lose too many, they're lose their sense of self. And then maybe the surviving Hordelings would eventually make a new Sleepless, but it would be a Sleepless without many of the same memories or personality traits, so basically a different person for most purposes.

I mean, if they weren't Sleepless, we have to question why in the world there were piles of burning insects on a battlefield. Like it makes sense if those insects were a combatant, but otherwise we get that for some reason, somebody took a break from the battle to pile up a bunch of bugs and then set them on fire.

So Battar and Nale are at least ostensibly on Odium's side now, Ash and Taln are well-guarded in Urithiru, and Ishar is both well-guarded and making a nuisance of himself for a Coalition. Pailiah is in Kharbranth, which Odium isn't supposed to touch. We know nothing about how Vedel and Chana are doing these days. So I'm gonna say Kalak, because I feel like it makes a bit more sense for him to go after a Herald that we've actually seen.

Man, Justi sure is full of bizarre claims. Oathbringer wasn't about Dalinar now? I guess because Kaladin and Shallan also got lots of time in the spotlight? That's a new one. Never mind the way Dalinar's decisions were driving the plot the whole way through, or the way the flashbacks were 100% about him, or how the resolution of his emotional arc was most of the book's climax or anything. Like, Dalinar and Shallan had plenty to do in Kaladin's book, and Dalinar and Kaladin did lots in Shallan's book. This isn't a series where the spotlight ever stays entirely with a single character. But it's still pretty obvious who each book is really about.

Well, good to have that officially cleared up. So I believe we're back to not having any clear examples of Tension, then? Unless it's what Dalinar uses to repair stuff.

I mean, who says Wit isn't doing anything to help against Odium? He gave Jasnah some useful information, gave Shallan a pep talk when she needed it, is trying to convince the other Shards to come and lend a hand, and who knows what else he's been doing off-screen. He just has to subtle about it because Odium would level cities to get at him if he ever managed to confirm Wit's location.

No, he was most certainly burning his metalminds. Combining Allomancy and Feruchemy by burning your metalminds is the entire principal behind compounding. So it's either burn them directly from his arms or swallow them and burn them from his stomach. And there aren't any references to him doing the latter, and nor does anyone ever talk about it as a tactical consideration.

I mean, wasn't Miles burning the metalminds embedded into his arms? That's why they talked about yanking those out of him being the only way to kill him, and why we never see him pause mid-battle to pull one out and swallow it, and why it was weird and notable when he survived the first round of bullets after being deprived of his metalminds. But- I'm not sure if any of these scenario are particularly different for the Mistborn; you get a big thing of metal shoved into your gut, and you're gonna die soon. The best case is that you managed to stop the person killing from getting your power, but if it worked that way, it would be a pretty crippling weakness in a magic system that already has a bunch of crippling weaknesses, so narratively option #2 make the most sense.

So... theory. Bavadin is inhabiting Taldain's sun, right? And spreading her investiture through the sunlight? This implies that her Investiture is radiating throughout the Cosmere; landing everywhere that Star is visible. Not enough to be particularly noticeable, and not enough to do much of anything, but it's still gonna land everywhere. Nobody's gonna be using that Investiture, so over the course of thousands of years, it would just gradually build up more and more. And when you leave that kind of power alone, with nobody holding or using it for that long, it tends to gain its own kind of sentience, as we've seen elsewhere and has been referred to in a few WoBs. So eventually you'd get a sentient and powerful piece of Autonomous Investiture pretty much everywhere. So on Taldain, where Bavadin's Investiture is obviously a lot more plentiful, this process happens a lot faster, and the Sand Lord manifests pretty quickly. But Trell and Patji and whatever avatar is forming on Obradai take much longer to reach significant amounts of power, so nobody realizes what's going on until they're pretty well established.

I dispute the idea that Cognitive Shadows and Spren are very different things realmatically. They're both sentient pieces of Investiture that interact with the physical realm is very limited ways, following specific rules. Seems to me the biggest differences between the two are their origins and how they reproduce. But- I think I buy the idea that the sapient Voidspren were once human. The specific detail that feels like a smoking gun to me is fact that they have Shin eyes- which wouldn't be the case if they were just based on how the Singers see humans. It implies to me their appearance isn't based on Rosharan humans. Though an alternative explanation for that is that they might just share their 'father's' ethnicity.

Life on one of those moons is theoretically possible. But it's equally possible the Farkeeper of out of the Goldilocks zone, or that none of the moons are quite large enough to have an atmosphere. But unfortunately I would expect the moons to be labeled and named if any of them were inhabited.

Hmm. I wonder how developed Astronomy is on Nalthis? Like, those appear to be Hallandren names for the planets, but a distant rocky planet like Nightstar appears to be wouldn't be easy to detect- it probably wouldn't be visible to the naked eye, so the only thing you'd have to go on would the gravitional effect on Farkeeper, which would probably be pretty weak, since that one appears to gas giant with a complicated system of moons. And Farkeeper is also an interesting feature- it seems to a 'Hot Jupiter', so would be significantly larger and brighter than any stars that are visible from earth. Depending on the specific numbers involved, it's possible that might end up looking like more like a second moon than a star. But yeah. Something labeled 'cognitive anomaly' appears to be sharing Nalthis' orbit. Or maybe it's stationary, and the cognitive realm just goes weird on Nalthis once a year?

On the Iriali: I think the general consensus is that they most likely arrived in the centuries between the first and second desolation- which is to say, the Oathpact had been formed and everyone thought that that meant the problem had been solved for good. On Horneaters and Herdazians: I suspect the way the battle lines are currently drawn so strictly along species lines is mostly a post-recreance thing; if there could be peace between Desolations, then that implies that without the Fused bossing them around, the Singers weren't necessarily inclined to continue the war. And therefore hybrids happen. This also implies that not all of them would necessarily side with the Fused when they showed up. On Odium-aligned humans: I don't know if they ever died out, really. Like things probably ended poorly of the specific faction that initially attacked the Singers, but we've seen humans fighting on the same side as the Fused in a Stormfather vision. And all the Passion stuff in the modern Thaylen religion feels like it has Odium's fingerprints all over it. I would not shocked if there was a secret society hiding somewhere that has been waiting for Odium's return so they can petition him for power. On Aimians: I do think they're refugees, but not from Ashyn. I dunno where they're from. It's possible that the Sleepless could've evolved on Roshar, but people always describe Hordelings as 'odd-looking Cremlings', which implies to me that they're not particularly closely related to normal Cremlings. So I think it's more likely that they're from elsewhere. As a side note, and one that isn't directly related to questions of how this started but I do feel is very important: How exactly did the Singers become so dependant on Ba-Ado-Mishram? Like surely things couldn't always have been like that, since they weren't always Odium-aligned, but their minds were destroyed when she was sealed. Except for the Listeners, I guess because they were mostly in Dullform when that happen. Something weird but very important that we don't fully understand going on there, is what I'm saying.

Voidbinding is something that's existed in the past in some form- legends about it exist, even if they are vague. Voidspren bonding humans is something that had never been seen before Thaylen city. Khriss writes about it having ten levels and being a cousin to the Old Magic, but that she doesn't know much about how it works, which doesn't make any sense is the first Voidbinder ever is just starting to figure out his powers in the same time frame. Which leads to believe that we haven't actually seen true Voidbinding yet. I've seen some theories about what it might be that I find plausible- specifically, I like the idea that it's something you gain access to by giving Odium your passion and letting his Investiture fill the resulting gap in your soul- but I don't think we can say anything more specific than 'Voidbinding is a magic system linked to Odium' with any degree of certainty.

I feel like noting that the fused were shocked to see Voidspren bonding humans in Thaylen city, as was Shalash. Neither knew that that was possible. Which suggests that that's not what Voidbinding is. So it might be theoretically possible to summon a Voidspren as a blade, as far as we know that's never happened. Unless you count Glys as a Voidspren.