LewsTherinTelescope

Yeah. All I can think of is I guess that the Radiants at Urithiru did not commit Recreance until later, but that doesn't match with what we're told about how quick it was..... And there's not exactly a ton of random Blades and Plate lying around the Tower.

Oh for sure. Ruin is not OPPOSED to destruction, and when you take "change and decay and breaking things down" and make a force entirely out of that, you're going to end up with a lot of destruction. It's more a discussion of, well, Intent. When Kelsier looks at Ruin, and we get examples of its Intent like in that paragraph, those example aren't the exploding volcano. They're the slow erosion, the crumbling across years upon years upon countless years. The Intention isn't "chaos and destruction, yesss, let's hurt people", it's "this has been going on too long, let's finally bring it to a close". Imo, it's more similar to what happened to Leras. Started going kind of crazy, was overtaken by Intent to an extreme degree (we're told that at the end, oaths themselves started mattering more than the meaning behind them), etc. After the description in RoW, the Oathpact sounds surprisingly similar to Ati's prison, and we're told the Oathpact is similar to how Honor and Cultivation bound Odium. Sort of. The Investiture to make Shardblades comes from the spren themselves. Similarly to how Ruin was manifest as atium, a spren could manifest itself in the Physical Realm as a lump of godmetal. Though the spren seems to be able to control this, at least when already pulled over a bit by the bond.

I'm not sure. It doesn't make much sense for it to be BAM with the timeline we know, but it also pretty much sounds like the state the tower is in when our Radiants find it. So.... zero clue.

Totally understandable, it's like two minor lines in the middle of the biggest scene in the series I think I've made this exact mistake in the past actually. Ah, I see. In that case yeah that makes sense. I'd say that's probably it, yeah. As Elend says, Ruin isn't just change and destruction, it's also peace with the fact it happens. Brandon's emphasized the same thing: Destruction is part of Ruin, but when it comes down to it, pure destruction is a smaller part of what Ruin is. It's acceptance of change and decay and the fact that one day, all things will end. On its own, this tends to manifest as destruction, but the violent destruction is not the actual purpose in and of itself. I feel this is also backed up by when we see the essence of the Shard: Yes, it's destruction to an extent. But when we see the examples given, none of them are chaotic explosions or anything. The examples are all more about the slow end that all things must someday meet, the decaying and crumbling over hundreds of years. Hence why Sazed is compatible with it. He's not a destructive person, no, but he has come to accept this ending. I'm actually very curious how Kelsier would react to holding the Shard. On one hand, yes, he is very Connected to it. He's in many ways an embodiment of change and chaos and destruction and breaking things down. But in some ways, he's also the embodiment of the opposite. He's the Survivor whom even death could not stop, the unbreakable rock everyone else clings to and who laughs in the face of pain, the man who proudly proclaims "I am Hope" in the face of the Lord Ruler himself as he's killed. He's far too chaotic and unpredictable for Preservation, and unlike Preservation he does acknowledge change and upheaval as a very necessary force (and one which he greatly enjoys), but I don't believe he's truly come to accept the finality and the end the way Ruin is about either. Sorry for the long tangent, just something I was discussing earlier today and so it was on my mind. I can't help but feel the "Honor lives on in the hearts of men" thing is tied to this, especially considering this: Jasnah's not the type to be agreeing for the sake of thematic or religious reasons. I'm not sure what exactly I think is up, but I think that the line will turn out to be far more literal than it sounds at first glance in some way. It's been repeated over and over. Teft has a very curious line as well: The only thing I can think of is that perhaps when he was dying and the Shard was close to Splintering, Tanavast Invested humanity in a manner somewhat similar to how Leras did or something, but I'm not sure why or how he would have done so. I'd guess no metal, because Sazed drained his copperminds but they still fell to the ground with the rest. But then, we don't know if there's any kind of like, Feruchemical residue that would have kept them slightly Invested, so a former metalmind is probably a bad proof. I'm now imagining a Vessel Ascending wearing glasses with a metal frame, and then being constantly blinded by them, lol. Hm, I don't see a ton of a connection there myself, but if you come up with one, I'd love to hear it. You never know what's a reference or not in the Cosmere, lol.

For anyone who hasn't seen the WoB on this, definitely worth a read lol.

Yeah. It's sort of amusing it was the worldhopper org specifically focused on non-intervention that brought a disease there... lol. Though, note that "plague" is something of a misnomer:

Hey, welcome to the forums! Glad to have you here! Note that he actually tapped those right before Ascension, if you're referring to the copperminds. The actual metal all was explicitly left behind: I also don't really agree with labeling Shards themselves as "end-negative", "end-neutral", "end-positive", etc. Even with magic systems this is not really a fully accurate way of categorizing them. With a Shard, the Shard is infinite and stretches across the whole universe, and Investiture can be neither created nor destroyed, so there's not really anything entering or exiting the "system". So they'd all be "end-neutral", technically. Balance of a sort is definitely needed, yeah. Sazed was apparently pretty much just super evenly Connected to both (don't ask why Sazed is more evenly Connected than other people who went through similar things, I don't know, I think Brandon just wanted him to be special xD): Brandon elaborates a very slight amount here: I'm super curious how the spren work tbh. R&P required a perfect balance, but the spren are all different ratios. Is it just because R&P are so opposed, and most Shards can merge in various ratios? Was something special done to make the spren? Etc Agreed. I'm not sure if it'll necessarily be much in the next book, because it's already looking to have a lot, but I think it'd feel odd for working it out to have to wait until after the ten-year timegap, so maybe it will be next book after all. I think this is pretty plausible, with the whole "Investiture resists other Investiture" mechanic going on. I find this unlikely, since as mentioned he didn't actually have metalminds taken with him when he Ascended. But it's an interesting theory and had the metalminds gone with him, I'd probably like this. I'm still not sure whether I expect this or not. On one hand, it seems to be hinted at, but on the other, a.) I don't think he'll want to just repeat Mistborn, and b.) Dalinar's conversations with Jasnah to me are pointing more towards an arc of relinquishing central power to a broader body, and I think an Ascension and melding of the Roshards (no matter who does it) would interact kind of weirdly with this. I think it's very much a real possibility, though, and not an unlikely one. I think it's very plausible he's trying to do something like that, yeah. I don't love the theory, mostly because I'm more on the #SplinterAllShards train rather than the #UnshatterAdonalsium one lol, but I definitely don't disagree with anyone who says the books might be pointing towards that. Purely my personal preference. Hm, I don't think Ascending to a single Shard would ever manage this, no matter what magic systems you have, since the Intents within the Shards are much larger than whatever you have on you, but it's possible you could theoretically gather a large mass from all of them and pick it all up. Personally, I'm not sure if it'd work or if it'd just tear you apart from all the conflicts, but it might be possible.

Yeah, I'd expect any war to a.) have major risk to both planets because angry Shards are no laughing matter, b.) Sel will probably beat the crap out of the winner (apparently Connection medallions are enough but are the more difficult method, so they should be able to do this by then), and c.) who knows where the aethers are in all this (we know aethers will be very important but the planet less so). And who even knows what's up with the Bavatars... Though this thread's probably intentionally ignored it for the sake of a hypothetical. But then, this hypothetical has been really not working well for discussion recently, so maybe moving to a related but different topic like this would be a good idea, lol.

Nope:

Oops yeah will fix that, thanks for pointing it out. Can't be, it was specifically an action carried out by a Radiant strike force, led by the last Bondsmith before the Recreance. Interestingly, Kalak seems to consider the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram and the fall of the singers and of the Knights as very very strongly connected:

I'd guess the strength of emotion and the fundamental part of themselves it becomes is why. The two are consumed by regret and guilt to the point it drives their entire lives. Szeth still barely allows himself to think due to his time as Truthless. What is it the Sleepless blurb calls him, the assassin who weeps as he kills? Every death affects him and drives him further into the pit of despair and hell. He constantly thinks of himself as damned, damned among the worst of sinners, with only one single way to become a worse man than he already has. And then it turns out he was never Truthless in the first place, making it all the more painful. And Dalinar feels horrible guilt and regret for the Rift, and more specifically for Evi. He buries himself in alcohol, ignores his children, hates himself for his actions and believes he can never be forgiven. Again, his entire life revolves around these actions. Those he killed are deeply part of who he is. Meanwhile, Vin struggled with this, but she came to her own conclusion on how to handle it and got over it. The guilt and pain was a struggle, but never became as much of a lasting baseline to her being as it was for the other two. There's actually one more character in the Cosmere whose killing was a core part in their life, whose pain over the death was a driving force in everything they did: He hated Elantris before, because it was blasphemous, but it wasn't until he had to kill Seala that he truly became so deeply, deeply obsessed with tearing it down, burning its remnants, destroying every trace of its power. Her death by his hands was a fundamental trait to the man he had become. And so, her screams follow him.

I've usually interpreted it as meaning the enslavement took time to happen during the chaos following the False Desolation, lobotomization, Recreance, and Honor's death all happening in quick succession, but yeah, it raises.... questions, if what you say is even a remote possibility.

Unclear. Syl says the Radiants didn't have as much time for experimenting with creative non-war uses for their powers because they were always fighting, but also says Relador spent most of his life just traveling between small villages using her to cut aqueducts and cisterns, and only went to fight when he was old, so.... /shrug

I've usually interpreted this as saying the actual enslavement took time to happen, because otherwise the Radiants being out fighting the "devils" is confusing (as is the mention of "the enemy" in the gem archive). But it's weird for sure. Thanks, I'll add that.

Considering all the honorspren alive at a time they could have witnessed it died, I assume the current ones got their information from a combination of the other societies and the Stormfather.

Because there's still all the other spren species???

Literally every single honorspren except Syl was bonded (and only then because Relador died recently), and so were large portions of other species, and there was a war going on they were actively involved with. I don't think they were only getting updates every few months.

As much as they didn't like what happened, they also probably didn't want to start the war back up. I've generally been of the opinion that the vision happens very shortly after BAM's capture. They fight the singers, then the singers all get lobotomized (but the Radiants probably don't realize this instantly, and a Radiant can do a lot of damage in a short time, so I imagine a lot of now-helpless singers were slaughtered when the Radiants saw their enemies falter and before they understood what was actually the case), and after some debate, go to Feverstone. This would probably require the debate over the continued existence of the orders to have been already ongoing, which from what we've heard it probably was, and this was more the last straw of "okay we really are too dangerous, we're done here".

I mean they literally arrested the judge and installed the prosecution's lawyer in his place. There's no reason to emphasize it was all in one day if it's not, then. Specific wording was used.

RoW. He has a whole conversation with it.

Szeth speaks to his highspren in his interlude...

Eh, I don't really agree. It's just that Szeth started out a perfect candidate for Ideals 1-3 so he didn't have much struggling for them xD I think from another PoV who is not so intensely inline with the idea, it'd be more challenging. You've got to pick and hold to a specific code and that can be difficult to always do. I think the Fourth Ideal, meanwhile, will then challenge the Third. By carrying out the mission, the Skybreaker will realize that justice is a lot more complex and nuanced than they may previously have thought, and in many cases will question their code more and wonder about it's flaws, and so by the time they finish the mission, they've been set on a much more introspective course. Now that they've finished the Fourth, they're ready for the next step. It might not be quick, but carrying out the mission has led them to search for a deeper meaning to "justice" than just the words of a code, which they will think about and explore for a while. This journey culminates in them finally able to understand the concept, and be confident in their own idea of justice and swear the Fifth Ideal and become their own law. However, Nale, by discouraging this questioning, has essentially stalled the Skybreakers at the Fourth.

It's symbolism between the two specific characters, not a contrast in the sides of the war. Nale at this current point is heavily focused on the letter of the law, while Szeth's highspren seems to be pushing him more towards the spirit with the Fourth and Fifth. If Szeth swears his Ideals and then they fight, they would be the only two Fifth Ideal Skybreakers, each personifying one of the philosophies due to their Ideals. It's weird with this specific scenario, because Szeth's Fourth is to complete a task. And I think carrying out that task will by default involve a lot of the journey to the meaning of the Fifth Ideal. So the Fifth Ideal might actually come more easily from the Fourth we'd expect. I think that Nale's teachings have made it far harder to reach the Fifth than would ordinarily actually be the case. (It's not an easy journey either way, but imo, it's more the last stretch of the track or the last leap, with the hardest part being working through the other Ideals to the point you can understand and swear the Fifth, rather than the Fifth itself. Journey before destination, after all.) Like I said, I'm torn on it. I think it would make a good scene, but would waste a lot of potential, and unless it was done very well would conflict thematically with the rest of the books. So I'd agree that I probably don't actually want it, cool scene or no. I've kind of liked the idea of him having a "redemption" in that he leaves Odium and, while not necessarily joining the cast, he ends up trying to atone for his mistakes and live and do good on his own, and that back half we get a kind of cycle of vengeance theme with him and Gavinor, because it feels like a theme Brandon would explore (and he probably has the chops to pull it off if he really tried). But the end of RoW seems to point away from that to me, unfortunately.

I'd assume there's something of a pattern to the truths, based on this WoB: I'm working on a larger post speculating on the Ideals in general, but as part of it: I think this indicates the Lightweavers may have some pattern. Imo, the Lightweaver Ideals, based on Shallan, would very loosely be along the lines of: LBD, SBW, JBD Truth you know but are ignoring Shallan lives her life terrified, but puts on a face and pretends she's not, she's aware of it but ignores it Shallan knows she killed her dad, and never really fully repressed that it was the case, but tries not to think about it Elhokar knows he's a bad king, but hasn't yet internalized as something he needs to work on Truth you have buried and denied Shallan had mostly gotten herself to believe that Lin had killed her mother, though there's definitely times this mask slips and she references the true events. But it's far deeper buried than the others. Major mistake and regret you have refused to admit Shallan killed Testament. She regrets it, it didn't need to happen, she screwed up royally and felt horrible about it when she realized what she had truly done, but then rather than owning up to it, she pretended it didn't happen. (Speculation) Awareness of your flaws, but acceptance that it's okay to still be growing and changing This seems to be the core of Shallan's character arc. With every truth, she's terrified of admitting it, because she thinks she will hate herself, her friends will hate her, Pattern will hate her, Adolin will hate her, etc. Accepting that she's not perfect, but that it's okay, is what she clearly is building towards. It also sounds good as the final goal of the order about "I will find my own truth". The ultimate truth about yourself, that a lot of people have trouble truly facing, but especially the people who the Cryptics would normally be attracted to. That you're flawed, yes, but also that it's okay to be flawed and to be changing. It also fits as a theme of the Stormlight Archive in general. Dalinar has sworn a similar Ideal, Kaladin's Fourth involved this kind of concept, etc. Even beyond Stormlight, rebirth and second chances are some of the most core themes to the Cosmere overall. The order having accepting that as their true goal, but flavored more specifically towards finding themselves? Makes perfect sense imo. Now, as I said, this would be a loose pattern. I don't believe in the Ideals being as strict as some seem to believe, and I feel any structure is more just an attempt to figure out how the journey works on average and boil that down. Individual Radiants may go through the realizations in a different order (though probably still five Ideals total), but this is the way most people will naturally gravitate towards, just because it matches a more organic journey. Edit: forgot to mention it, but yes, I'm assuming that "I'm terrified" was not to Pattern, because evidence seems to support that strongly to me (I hate the implications of it, but it feels very clear to me now). But if that assumption is wrong, this no longer holds.

"Insane" isn't quite the word I'd use, as to me that comes more with connotations of not being able to distinguish reality, which isn't what he suffers from. "Unstable", however, definitely describes him, as we see with Ishar and Taravangian. (It's understandable, I'm by no means saying it's illogical or comes out of nowhere, but he can be pushed over the edge and go extreme very easily.) When taken to the absolute extreme like Radiants seem to tend to do... And the letter and spirit of the law do conflict at points, though they definitely don't always conflict. And they're very different philosophies to approaching the law when distilled down.