bxcnch

Yes, but Sazed already had a vague idea what the shards represented. I don't think Vin ever mentioned feeling a "preserving" intention when she was in the mists or even when she was ascending. I imagine that the distribution of the shards was happening on a more subconcious level. The way I imagine it, Ati probably was a figure more comparable to Kaladin and Moash in WoK or like Elant - someone who deep down really just wanted to bring positive change to the world - establish democracy, overthrow the tyrants or an opressive elite, fix the world - that kind of change, and that's why the shard "chose him". Except that his shard never stops "wanting" to change things, which eventually leads to Ati becoming Ruin. Rayse probably, at least that's how I interprete Frost's letter, just wanted to do whatever he feels like without having to face consequences - and I think that (acting on one's passions and urges instead of honorable ideals) is (I think) what Odium represents. But of course that is just speculation on my part, ultimately we'll probably have to wait for Dragonsteel to know for sure.

Another question - since in the first few SA books it was said that everything has a spren - even, hats if Lopen is to be believed - does that mean that the beads in Shadesmar are spren?

Well, technically there were 16 Shards. I think, as far as we know there's 12 in the moment (thanks to Rayse and Sazed).

I definitely disagree on the Orders having identical surges - sure, Kaladin and Dalinar both have Adhesion, but the way Dalinar uses it in Oathbringer is A LOT different than the way Kaladin uses it. Likewise I doubt that the Truthseers use Illumination like Shallan does - they don't have the same emphasis on lying and pretense. Anyway, I am almost sure that it's canon that the orders vary somewhat in how they use their surges, especially with Adhesion. But, yeah, in retrospect, my theory actually does sound a little far-fetched overall.

Unlikely. Spren are, in fact, functionally immortal. Adolin's deadeye may seem dead but even before it was beginning to return to life, it was able to walk around freely through Shadesmar and when Syl was killed by Kaladin she explicitly said that a spren is only as dead as its Knight's oath. That's why the Knights can still hear screaming when they touch the Shardblades. It's less "death" and more "lobotomy". The only spren killed so far is one that was tormenting Gavinor in Kholinar and as far as I remember it did not leave a corpse that could be awakened. I'm much more interested in what an awakened object would look like in Shadesmar (especially Nightblood, seeing how he's basically a fake-spren)

The strongest form without a doubt would be Castform. Basically like stormform, but it could also create famines or blizzards.

I just - spontaneously - came up with this theory: There's not 10 surges but either 8 or 16, in line with the Cosmere's overall numerological motif. I noticed that all the Surges we have seen, seem a little strange in that they don't always work the same way. Kaladin, for instance, flies by letting himself be pulled into a direction. Meanwhile, the Fused are mentioned to fly in a different way, as Kaladin says that they are flying more elegantly than he does - more like actual birds, I assume. The Surge of Gravitation seems to work very differently for Fused and Radiants. I assume that this is the same for all Surges. After all the Surges (as seen with Adhesion) are already very different between the different Radiant Orders, it would not be surprising if the surges used by the Fused and the Radiants are also very different. The surges we have seen the Fused use so far are sadly very limited. We know that one of them has used Illumination to disguise himself in Thaylen City and another one used Abrasion to escape from Lift. These surges do, admittedly, seem very similiar to the Radiant surges, but - then again - we haven't seen them a lot yet. If my theory is right, then there are definitely always two versions of a surge - a Radiant and a Fused version. In my opinion there are sixteen surges, 8 radiant surges and 8 "Void-Surges", just as there are 16 metals in Mistborn, 8 "normal" metals and 8 alloys. Plus, of course, the Godmetals. Similiarly I think there are God-Surges on Roshar. So it's not "9+1" and "9" for the Radiants and the Fused respectively, but it is "8+2" and "8+1". 8 Radiant Surges, Honor's Surge and Cultivation's Surge versus 8 Void-Surges and Odium's Surge. Honor's Surge is presumably Adhesion, due to Honor's association with unity and bonds, and Adhesion is quite literally binding things together. Cultivation's Surge is, I assume, Tension - even though I have no idea what exactly Tension is, so it's difficult to argue why. Odium's Surge, I assume, is Precognition - what we see Renarin do in OB. Some people have argued it might be Illumination, but the Fused that Rysn encountered used a much more Lightweaverish form of Illumination. Also it is said that seeing the future is associated with Odium. Anyway, assuming that Tension and Adhesion are the God-Surges of Cultivation and Honor, then the Bondsmiths would wield both God-Surges and would be associated with both shards. That would explain not only why the Bondsmiths are so insanely powerful, it would also work well with the theory that the Sibling is connected to both shards.That is probably why, as the WoB says, the Fused don't have a counterpart to the Bondsmiths. That's just my - spontaneously written - theory on the 9-10-debate. I am not quite sure about it myself, but I think my theory makes at least a tiny bit of sense. I hope. (Also I believe I've seen the word God-Surge used before, now that I think about it. I'm very sorry if someone else already had this idea)

But Elhokar mentioned seeing "Shadows sneaking up behind me" in the mirrors or something similiar. I don't think looking into a mirror attracts creativity-spren. (...or maybe Elhokar was into creative application of make-up?) (I also kind of have a problem believing that Kaladin became a Radiant because of "bad weather.")

I know it doesn't really matter anymore, but I just wanted to point out that ... Cryptics are not really "math-spren" or even "lie-spren", they are rather "truth-spren". After all, Pattern doesn't want Shallan to lie more, he wants her to speak more truths. And truth and honesty, to me, are very compatible with honor. The Stormfather explicitly does sound like the Almighty. IIRC when Dalinar first hears him speak on the Shattered Plains, the Stormfather first quotes Dalinar's visions, before he speaks in the same voice, except more growling and thunder-ish. You said that two shards working together would likely be able to prevent a third shard's interference. That sadly isn't true, Anyway, this is just a few more (by now, kind of unnecessary) arguments against the shard Unity's existence, even though the theory itself isn't at all bad. I agree that Unity, if anything, is most likely something like the Lord Ruler (a ...Splinter? Sliver? What is the right term here?) Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, who is basically the largest leftover chunk of Honor, and Dalinar accesses his power. And I think, that is exactly what a Sliver is, someone who wields a significant part of a Shard's power, right?

It might also slow down the process instead, since Ruin and Preservation are opposing each other, like he's being pulled in two opposing directions.

This seems to be a topic where you all may unanimously disagree with me, but, well... I always thought of Odium as uncontrolled emotion, not just hatred. A lot of the protagonists hate something, like Kaladin hates opression, Adolin hated Sadeas, Dalinar hates himself, et cetera, and while the character development - and thereby, their "career" as Surgebinders - has so far often involved overcoming this hatred, I don't really feel like that hatred has made them more susceptible to Odium. If Odium really was only divine hatred, then I think the story would play out a lot more like Star Wars, with characters needing to restrain themselves to avoid corruption. I think the overarching (moralic) conflict is less about "hatred vs. love", but more about "ideals vs. irresponsibility". The "good god" is called Honor, quite possibly the most vague concept of all the shards. What exactly honour means is a highly disputed topic with different answers depending on culture, time period and personal philosophy. In SA, judging from the magic system, honour seems to be defined as "making decisions based on higher values and ideals instead of one's own emotions". That is exactly what seperates the good guys from the bad guys in SA. Kaladin chooses to protect instead of taking revenge, Szeth puts the law over his own sympathy, et cetera. Meanwhile, Amaram warps and re-interpretes his ideals whenever they contradict his pseudo-messianic self-image and Moash just abandons all ideals in favor of "none of this is my fault anyway". The big step that would have made Dalinar a slave of Odium would have been saying "This isn't my fault". The entire war is a conflict between Honor (responsibility, facing the consequences, choosing to serve higher ideals instead of momentary desires - in short: acting like one's ideal self) against Odium (irresponsibility, doing things because you want to, acting out of emotions like greed, revenge, hatred or spite instead of higher values, not accepting that it's your fault etc.). In other words: The "good guys" are following values, the "bad guys" are acting out of emotion. So, looking at the motifs in the story, to me it would make a lot of sense if Odium is more about "uncontrolled emotion" than about just mere hatred. I think you could compare it to Siegmund Freud's concept of Id/Ego/Super-Ego. Honor is all about the Super-Ego, about trying to be a better person, while Odium is the Id, the raw, uncontrolled passion and desire (I don't know enough about Cultivation to properly explain the "Ego" part though). I know that the WoBs apparently kind of opposes this idea, but I don't really get the impression that Odium is meant to be "just hatred" from them either.

As someone whose native language isn't english, can someone maybe explain the grammar of "Knights Radiant" to me? It is a noun followed by an adjective (or is it a latin participle in anglicised form?) Shouldn't it, theoretically, be "Radiant Knights"? Like "this is a long book" instead of "this is a book long". I mean, I have read enough english to know that Knights Radiant "feels" better, and I know that it's the same with "Knights Errant" but.... still, is there any grammatical reason for why it is that way?

I think Evi's voice is just one of the "mysterious", unexplainable things that we won't get an answer to. Like in Lord of the Rings, where Tolkien himself basically admitted that Tom Bombadil has no logical explanation and is completely unrelated to the cosmology at large. I think in the Cosmere there are also things that are just completely unexplainable, like the Beyond, or the implied deity above Adonalsium. I don't think they can be explained with any of the pseudo-science-investiture-charts and theories and all the mechanics of Investiture that we know and they are probably not supposed to. I think Dalinar hearing Evi's voice is in the same category.

Okay, I hope some of this makes sense, because I have been typing this for at least half an hour: I personally believe that the only real limit the Fused have in accessing Odium's voidlight is their own passion. After all there must be some reason for why the Fused value particularly passionate people so much. The other shards that we have seen so far seemingly had limitations in when and to whom they could talk. Ruin needed hemalurgical spikes to communicate, Preservation couldn't really communicate at all etc. Odium has one thing in common with them: he cannot fully influence the world. Ruin was imprisoned, Leras was dying, Odium is on another planet. - each of them is limited in his power and each of them seems to have problems appearing in the world. For example, he only really appeared to Venli and Dalinar, both of which have a history with him. Meanwhile, Navani couldn't see him in Thaylenah. I assume that he also cannot just grant power to whomever he wants but needs some sort of connection. That connection is passion. We have seen how to access Odium's power in two cases: Moash and Dalinar. Dalinar first: He was chosen by Odium explicitly because of his passionate and strongly emotional "blackthorn" persona. Otherwise there isn't really anything TOO useful about Dalinar - he is old, not in as good a shape as e.g. Adolin or Kaladin; he is not quite as scheming as Sadeas, Jasnah or Taravangian; he is not as influential as the Azish Emperor or Aesudan. I am sure, if these were the criteria that are important, Odium would have chosen someone else. Probably Gavilar. Or maybe one of the Shin, so he could get the honorblades. But no. Instead Odium decided that Dalinar was the most suitable Champion, apparently based on Dalinar's past as a blood-thirsty, raging berserker. What seems to be important is the amount of emotion or passion of his lackeys. The second step was giving up one's responsibility. That's the moment when Dalinar completed his third oath. By giving up the responsibility for his actions, Dalinar would assume the role of the poor victim, controlled by an outward force, shifting his blame and would basically deny the fact that his actions have personal consequences for him. If Dalinar can always say "Odium did it", "someone else made me do it", "I did what I had to do" etc, there would be no consequences and no real incentive for him to act honorable. In a certain way doing so would possibly also break his first oath, as Dalinar would stop striving for ideals, therefore denying the existence of any personal "Destination" and therefore there also wouldn't be a "Journey" (that's probably VERY far-fetched though). Anyway, what can be said for certain is, that denying responsibility is an important step in joining Odium. So these are the two steps I think are necessary to gain a real strong connection to Odium. Passion and Denial of responsibility. Amaram had it too. He saw a shard-blade, said: "I want it", killed a few Darkeyes and then said "I did what I had to do." He also seems to have been a rather passionate man, seeing as he almost attacked Jasnah over a minor insult. With Moash, it's the same. He is passionate, as the Fused have stated again and again. Moash also denies responsibility for his actions. Killing Elhokar is "the right thing to do", his own character flaws are "the product of society". With Moash, we also see the result of these two steps: emptiness. Moash in the end isn't very passionate anymore, he's empty inside, because Odium is "feeding on his emotions." Now why would the evil omnipotent god of rage need a simple human's wrath? Ruin didn't feed on corruption, Preservation didn't feed on stagnation, Cultivation doesn't feed on plants. I think Odium's feeding on emotions is a result of a connection between Odium and a human/singer being. Sure, Moash so far doesn't have voidlight and with Dalinar and Amaram we will hopefully never know. But what we do know is that the people at the end of this process feel empty - and we are currently discussing voidbinding . I really don't know where the "void" that Odium is always associated with is coming from if not here. While I am not certain whether or not Dalinar and Moah will/would get Voidlight, I am almost certain that a connection to Odium like the Fused possess works like I described. A person denies responsibility, amasses a lot of rage, then connects with Odium and gets voidlight as long as they can feed him their rage/passion. I don't really have anything to support this but I think it explains why Odium needs to "eat" passion and why it's called voidlight.

I don't want to spoil the fun, but the voice Szeth apparently heard in his youth might have been a highspren. They seem to be very good at hiding and Pattern was with Shallan too when she was a child. Also, considering that Dalinar seems to be Honor's champion, I'd imagine a possible champion of Cultivation would be a Nightwatcher-Bondsmith.

I think the problem with this theory is that, first of all, it would be more than a little difficult to introduce 11 new godlike characters in one book and give sufficient exposition to explain what they are without completely ruining the pace of the storytelling. Also there are readers out there that don't know about the Cosmere. After all, even the words "shard", "Adonalsium", "Investiture" etc. have only been revealed via supplimentary material (I think). In the actual books there barely is anything even hinting at the Cosmere's existence. I think your theory makes sense in-universe, but I think a significant part of the readers, especially the more casual ones, would think of this as Deus Ex Machina. Besides, I am pretty sure that WOB says the crossovers between the series would be more subtle and not directly impact the main plots.

Do we also have information on when Sadees and Nohadon ruled? I think it was heavily implied if not explicitly stated that Radiants were still around during Nohadon's reign, which almost certainly was after, or maybe during the Final Desolation. I don't think we know anything about Sadees though.

Seeing how Odium doesn't really seem very interested into creating a well-functioning society with justice, law-enforcement and parsh-rights, I don't think be really cares about the parshmen enough to turn them into a more powerful form. As Moash's chapters show, many Parshmen are just slaves, treated no better than Sadeas' bridgemen. There's really no reason to turn these into stormform-warriors, especially if they become less strong and steady that way (I think it was said that stormform was rather slender and limber and not as muscular as the Warrior-Form). It would be the equivalent of giving swords, full-body armor and horses to some force-conscripted peasants in the middle ages - it's a waste of ressources and a higher chance of successful mutiny.

As someone who has read the German versions I have to complain about the amount of Grunzen and Kichern in the books. Kaladin apparently "grunzt" a lot, which you could probably translate with "grunting". Except you usually use it in the context of pigs. The mental image of Kaladin randomly making pig noises is hard to ignore. There also is only one word for chukle, giggle in cackle in german, and that is "Kichern" which all characters do all the time. Suddenly all characters sound like imbecile young teenagers who start giggling childishly even at some of the less funny jokes in the books. Apart from that my only real complaint is about Vyre. In English it rhymes with Fire, which makes sense considering its spelling. For some reason that part was also translated. In german, Vyre (which Germans would usually just pronounce the English way ("Anglicism") or as Vee-reh) now rhymes with Feuer (German for fire). So, "Voyah" is how we apparently have to pronounce it in German. The spelling not only makes no sense then, but it also sounds pretty stupid. You could probably have said it rhymes with "Befreier" (Savior) which would be quite a little melodramatic, but at least it would make sense AND keep the Vyre-sound.

Maybe the "drama" isn't important but the level of self-awareness is. Otherwise, if it's only about whether or not something is true, being a lightweaver would be pretty easy. "Grass is green, water is wet, I like chocolate, birds can fly, Moash sucks, the Earth is round, fire is hot, and, ta-daa I am a high-level Lightweaver" . Swearing an oath is all about recognising who you are, what you want to be and making a new step towards a more "ideal" you. The words are unimportant, as Teft and Lopen demonstrated. Lopen's first Oath in Thaylenah didn't count because he hadn't truly changed. Kaladin changes when he puts away his vengeance and does what is right. Dalinar changes when he decides to begin his atonement and goes into Jesus-mode. Szeth changes by choosing to serve what he thinks is right out of his own free will. Each truth Shallan has spoken has been accompanying a big step towards a more "real" Shallan, whether or not she could handle it afterwards. If this theory is right, then I will gladly admit that Shallan must have been the wisest and most introspective pre-teen I have ever seen.

Oh, and before I forget, her better control of stormlight is probably due to her Horneater-ancestry (red hairs, etc.). I think it was already said that the Horneaters are something of a "Human/Parshman-Hybrid" and we also know that the Fused are more efficient at using voidlight than the Radiants with their stormlight. It only makes sense that a Radiant with Parsh-ancestry would be better at holding Stormlight.

Where is it said that ALL Radiants get their shardblade at 3rd Oath? After all, Dalinar doesn't get a Shardblade at all. We can only be sure about this for one or two orders, right? Maybe Lightweavers get their blades earlier - they already are different to the other orders because of their unique oath progression. Anyway, I don't think Pattern would be able to go along with Shallan being so deeply in denial - after all he basically is a "Truthspren" and has been a horrible liar in the past as well. Also, considering how "dramatic" her lies have been so far (I killed my father. I killed my mother.) I have some troubles believing Shallan had already sworn three or more oaths as a toddler.

The last time I read Mistborn is quite a while ago, sorry if all of this is wrong, but wasn't it said that Ati-um is Ruin's physical body? Because if that is true, then I assume Leras-ium is Preservation's body, or at least a tiny part of it (which, I think, would mean that the mists Vin is breathing in before ascending are gaseous Lerasium?). Anyway, stormlight isn't Tanavast's body, thus using a lot of stormlight wouldn't make you Honor. I think stormlight is just "free" Investiture, but changed by Honor, just as the afore-mentioned black smoke coming from Nightblood is Investiture corrupted by Nightblood. After all, Tin is also invested by Preservation, but Spook didn't become Presevation just because he had become a Tin Savant... But, once again, you probably know better about Mistborn-mechanics than I do.

Did we ever see a chapter from a spren's POV? I would really like to know how Pattern or Stormfather see the world, for example

Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the battle at Kholinar was very short. Most of Kaladin's squad were killed by Moash and his parshmen and that was before the Fused came in. Aesudan wasn't even there when the big slaughtering broke out. She didn't really have to use her powers against anyone, unlike Amaram. I also find it hard to believe that Aesudan never even tried out her new abilities in weeks, especially because she seemed very confident about her new powers. But that is mostly how imagined the battle, maybe Aesudan actually fought dozens of soldiers "off-screen".