Oltux72

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I really don't see why the scientist can't be a Scadrian who has been nudged in the right direction by Kelsier's ex-Shardic information. Kelsier can be aware that some things are possible without knowing the details and it is always easier to figure out something that you already know is feasible.

Because you'd have to construct prototypes. Which would require components and workers. The components need to come from other houses. Your workers will talk. Do you really think the noble houses don't do industrial espionage? They have private armies. They'll look at the market and they'll notice that there's more aluminium around than official figures can explain. They'll dig around.
Nor can you build your prototype factory on some godforsaken world. You'll need lots of electricity and parts.

Yet without having seen the transition, even the best single scientist will not give you good estimates.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Honestly the side-lining of Scadrians among the Ghostbloods in TLM doesn't make a lot of sense even as is, whithout adding even more theoretical worldhoppers into the mix.

If you want your organization to stay secret, putting the local offworld makes sense. People have relatives and lovers. They tend to talk. Plainly removing the opportunity to slip up makes sense.

2 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

So if you have a Selish Art like AonDor, then you can leave Sel but you lose your powers,

Yes. We have seen numerous Selish worldhoppers. They are the largest group. And you lose most of your powers. Elantrians seem to have some "passive" powers, which they retain.

2 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

but if you're a Surgebinder then you can't actually leave Roshar at all?

Technically I would have to answer that we do not know, as we don't know whether the bearer of Yelig Nar or somebody who spiked the Surgebinding out of a Fused can leave, but neither the Knights Radiant nor the Fused can leave without special techniques. We have seen Hoid in The Lost Metal, so you can leave if you know the trick, but by default you cannot leave the Rosharan system. Ashyn and Braize can be reached.

Generically speaking this is interesting because apparently everybody else can just leave and retains their powers.

The population numbers are from a 2015 WoB, thus predting even Oathbringer.

Desolations are catastrophes, demographically speaking. How much of Roshar's population has died so far?

This analysis leaves out an extreme logistical advantage on the offensive. Lifeless need no food or drink. That makes them uniquely suited to operations in the Cognitive Realm.

14 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

They have both and more 

Not outside an industrialized world.

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kelsier could have some leftover knowledge from holding Preservation, or they could have used fortune or tapped large amounts of zinc.

Possible, but then they would not refer to another scientist, who understands the issues and hence comes from a scientifically advanced world, taking us back to the original issue..

On 28.12.2022 at 3:58 PM, Frustration said:

Aluminum as cord says.

Aluminium sold for its novelty value on Roshar until very recently. That is, you can earn nicely in relative terms but not absolutely or you flood your own market.

On 28.12.2022 at 3:58 PM, Frustration said:

And how do you think the spren get their stormlight? They have to go through the horneaters.

Getting your trade partners to revere you as a god is really good scheme to get what you desire at really low rates.

On 28.12.2022 at 3:58 PM, Frustration said:

And spren charge off worlders for passage on their ships, directions, the resources they manifest etc.

While that is true, those offworlders will be rare. If you are trading in the CR, your trip kind of naturally boils down to five stages

1. a trip to the perpendicularity
2. the origins land area turned into some kind of ocean, which you will sail to the point closest to the subastral you want to get to
3. an overland trip through the equivalent of deep space
4. another ocean trip to perpendicularity
5. from the perpendicularity to the destination

The traders on the caravans for stage#3 have no economic reason to go further than the outermost Spren city. So the Horneaters get nothing from them.

59 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Is there any reason that the Ghostbloods couldn’t make aluminum I’m their own? They have scholars among their ranks, couldn’t they have discovered the secret?

They could. But it is unlikely. They are not better in that regard than anybody else and they'd have more trouble running engineering experiments than a noble house. And you cannot easily run such research off world either. You need people and equipment.

1 minute ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Who’s Felt again?

One of Dalinar's men who was originally an agent of House Venture on Scadrial at the time of the Catacendre.

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Population is included in the natural advantages section of all worlds which we have information on.

I stand corrected.

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

While this is true, I can't think of anything to do about it.

1. Date the information
2. Do multiple articles or sections. It coulb be argued that pre-Catacendre Scadrial would have ended up higher on the index than Way & Wayne Scadrial, which in turn was certainly vastly more powerful than Scadrial a few decades after the Catacendre

And you may need a political section to tell us about the degree of political unity or the chance of an opponent to exploit internal disunity.

On 26.10.2022 at 8:39 PM, Bzhydack said:

All Metalic Arts work anywhere. And both Allomancy and Hemalurgy are directly linked to Harmony. So I think Harmony shouldnt have troubles to reach any Allomancer and Hemalurgic Construct anywhere in Cosmere.

I am afraid that is directly contradicted by the evidence. Harmony wrote MeLaan a physical letter informing her of Wayne's death.

On 26.10.2022 at 10:28 PM, StormingTexan said:

We actually already have an example of a Cognitive Shadow being able to control an invested being remotely. It is even weirder than this because the CS is not even using a form of investiture native to their planet. 

SA Spoiler (all the way to SA5 prologue) 

  Hide contents

Kelsier is using a Seon as an "Avatar" on Roshar.  Presumably communicating in real time Scadrial to Roshar. 

So I would think Harmony should still be able to control/communicate with. Kandra off world. 

(all the way to SA5 prologue))

On 13.12.2022 at 10:22 PM, Yomisma said:

Hmmm... In a thousand years Rashek should have sent spies out of his comfort zone right? Kandra called him father. There doesn't have to be just Sazed agents outside.

Or some of the first generation were not happy about being turned to Kandra and left.

I am afraid this needs to add a section on population to really build a useful comparison.

And we have the problem that the intelligence is centuries out of date. At the time of the Catacendre, the Ire had to fear Threnody in another solar system. At the time of the last Desolation, no longer.

On 11.12.2022 at 4:26 AM, lacrossedeamon said:

Isn't the whole deal of the 17th Shard to not have influence?

Not to use it.

On 11.12.2022 at 4:26 AM, lacrossedeamon said:

Anyways I don't think we have enough information to even begin speculating on this. We've really only seen the Ghostbloods in action.

I am afraid this is incorrect. We also saw the Ire. They built fortresses, had their own military force, sell technology nobody else has and made a device that allows stealing a Shard and it worked.

On 16.12.2022 at 6:42 PM, Frustration said:

You don't put resources towards something that doesn't give returns.

Debatable. The mere knowledge about the offer weakens the 17th Shard. Its members know that they have an alternative they can go to. You cannot give the lukewarm members dangerous missions, to state the most obvious effect.

19 hours ago, Lord Tavash Shar said:

The question was never if they could make the magic systems. It's why DON'T they? As was said. Ruin can make things. It just does not even try to do so.

I am afraid I have to point out that he participated in making a whole planet.

On 17.12.2022 at 11:32 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Interesting that he said 'you can go to Braize or Ashyn', does this mean that if a Radiant went to Ashyn somehow, then they wouldn't be far enough to lose their powers?

Presumably you will not lose your powers, if you can make it work. That is a specifically Selish thing. You physically cannot leave being pulled back.

Kelsier gave us a major hint when he mentioned their method of making aluminium. Somebody has had to develop it. That likely means there is an unknown major industrialized world out there, unless Sel has changed beyond recognition. Now it could be Taldaine. But the Ghostbloods imported aluminium. It looks likely that the source of the aluminium and their knowledge of electrolysis is one and the same. Autonomy is unlikely to allow large scale trade with Ghostbloods. Silverlight also looks unlikely, as this is industrial technology and they are living a long way away from mines.

So Mythos? Bjendahl?

On 11.12.2022 at 5:50 AM, lacrossedeamon said:

SP1 it seems to be spores and I think in TLM they only refer to it as a "bud" or "seed" but I don't think those are the Aethers themselves just how they connect to their bonded. And different Aethers might use a different "seed".

We may speculate that the aethers have a life cycle from spore to bud to eventually core aether, which makes new spores. The spores do create vines upon contact with water, which could be another aether's equivaent of the crystal buds.

On 12.12.2022 at 3:51 AM, bmcclure7 said:

Don't suppose you know what form the Aether seed took in AoN?

They were propagated by splitting the buds. That, however, need not be the proper method.

On 15.12.2022 at 11:46 PM, Ookla the Inverted said:

I was thinking more along the lines of a permanent Son, so maybe an Elantrian could use an AonRao tattoo or something

Then why bother? If it is to be permanently on, why tatoo it? Use a pencil and just draw it on the skin. Much easier to correct errors. Or use an ordinary, mechanical stamp and press it into the skin while you want to switch it on.

On 8.12.2022 at 4:59 AM, DiePie said:

small correction: They do not have nuclear weapons. They know less about radiation than we did during the equivalent time period (beyond a bright-line spectrum), or anything about alpha/beta decay (1899), not that we'd hear much about it if they were discovering it around this time.

They have already taken baby steps towards quantum mechanics. Shadow of Self mentioned research into the Zeeman effect.

On 8.12.2022 at 4:59 AM, DiePie said:

The first thing someone thought of when they realized you can split uranium was how to make a bomb and that would probably make papers (especially since the Elendel government is too weak to take steps like the Manhattan project and keep this under wraps). We can probably assume that there'll be a bomb test somewhere in the roughs within the next 5-10 years, but as of now they do not have nuclear weapons.

They can now make cyclotrons. That will put them on the way to particle physics and relativity.

On 8.12.2022 at 4:59 AM, DiePie said:

Something that I think could happen, however, would be old-women Marasi making an appearance. She's quite a bit younger than Wax, and combine that with being a pulser (slows down time), she could definitely live a few years longer than she should. 50 years in the future she could also definitely be either in the tail end of her service as governor, or retired from the position (Elendel doesn't have term limits, right?).

Waxillium is a pulser now, too. Among other things.

On 23.12.2022 at 4:36 PM, StanLemon said:

An interesting takeaway from TLM that I haven't noticed anyone talk about yet, is the Set was able to measure the Investiture in a Hemalurgic spike. Being able to measure the amount of Investiture something has will be very important and I'm curious how they can even do it

Take a standardized allomantic grenade for steel or iron. Fill it up. Let it push on a spike. Measure the exerted force. Weigh it. Divide.

On 23.12.2022 at 7:39 PM, Frustration said:

I'm guessing the same way we measure light absorbance. They run invested particles through the spike and when the investiture in the spike interferes it will prevent those particles from moving through. Then the machine calculates what percentage of particles were stopped and that's the percentage invested the spike is.

You can do that, but it raises the question how you measure an invested particle.

9 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I agree, geography is always going to be relevant to war. Even with our modern day technology it still can make or break a war. The only Invested forces that won't be concerned about geography are the ones that fly. 

Even then, because it affects opponents and resupply. Patji, for example, is an island. Meaning that once you have taken the land around the perpendicularity, your opponents would need to do an amphibious opeation to dislodge you.

On 16.12.2022 at 3:12 PM, Isilel said:

Yea, Zahel and Azure worked well until RoW, but Kaladin lack of reaction to Zahel using strange powers and giving weird lectures that outed him as an off-worlder stuck out like a sore tooth. Ditto him not sharing this info with others.  And then, when Urithiru was occupied, it never occured to Kaladin that Zahel would be a very handy person to recruit?! Pure nonsense, sorry.

So you say that Dalinar, when going to a battlefield with high value people who might need instructions, would leave behind his slave who happens to be his top instructor?

On 18.12.2022 at 1:39 AM, Frustration said:

The Horneaters are trying very hard to keep the perpendicularity secret, they wouldn't do something so obvious. And only a rare few Horneaters have Rock's strength, and even for those that do it's only during certain times.

Firstly, the Horneaters themselves rarely see worldhoppers. You will leave the final leg of the journey to Spren, who already have ships that can sail the Seas of Beads.

Secondly, what are people actually trading? And whom to? I am sorry to put it that bluntly, but the money in the Rosharan system is in Shadesmar, not on the physical planet. Riino ate fish from another planet, not grain from Roshar. It seems to me that trade goods are either luxury goods or absolute necessities to travellers.

1 hour ago, Adamkarma said:

In chapter 48, when Adawathwyn wanted to use the Bands herself, she said

What's her power?

Zinc presumably.

On 19.12.2022 at 7:22 PM, AquaRegia said:

Those are all perfectly reasonable points, and I'm (gradually) becoming willing to accept the in-universe "reasons" why things are the way they are on Scadrial... but I'm not sure I'm ever going to really buy it.

I see what you are saying.

On 19.12.2022 at 7:22 PM, AquaRegia said:

In our history, conquest has never been the primary motivation for humans to explore the world.  People didn't migrate from Africa to Europe, or from Asia to North America, because they were looking for someone to beat up.  We are instinctively, fundamentally curious.  It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to view Scadrians as humans somehow completely lacking in this one characteristic human trait.

I do not like to say this, as it has some very evil connotations, but for fairness you could make two arguments:

1. Scadrians are not human. They are artificial constructions after all. It is possible that Ati and Leras left some things out, intentionally or not
2. The Final Empire was not a place whose ruler rewarded curiosity or progress. I fact the opposite was true. That may have triggered a change that goes very deep.

On 19.12.2022 at 7:22 PM, AquaRegia said:

The relevant comparison of Era 2 Scadrial to exploration-era Earth also invites the consideration of another fundamental human quality: greed.  Every major advance in mapping Earth was made by someone looking not for a fight, but a way to GET RICH.  We've seen plenty of textual evidence that Scadrians like accumulating wealth just as much as we do.  The Allomancer Jak stories demonstrate that there is a hunger in Elendel both for adventure and for seeking ancient or mythical treasures.  They have legends of "lost metals" and magical artifacts objectively based in reality; it seems to me that that alone should have been more than sufficient to motivate someone - at the very least - to rusting circumnavigate the coastline of their rusting continent!

True. That drives me personally to conclude that there is an unknown danger that precludes it, unless you are sailing in a very modern ship. It may be as simple as Scadrial's seas harboring life forms that are hostile to wooden sailing ships. The Lord Ruler after all had to keep his people and the control group separate. That means that prior to the introduction of steam engines and air ships, contact was prevented by other factors.

On 19.12.2022 at 7:22 PM, AquaRegia said:

It's been 350 years, call it 15-20 generations, since the Catacendre.  People get bored, they get restless, they are curious and greedy.  I don't think it will ever really make sense to me that they progressed to skyscrapers, locomotives, and steel navies, but have never explored the coastline 200 miles from their home, neither on land nor by sea.

The bottom line is that the stories Brandon wants to tell depend on things being as they are.  I'm working on accepting that, even if it doesn't fit my idea of "reality".

Or there are things on Scadrial that Brandon still wants to tell stories about. We have seen hints like the mysterious metal constructs mentioned in a broadsheet.

On 19.12.2022 at 7:37 PM, Ookla the Observant said:

We know that many of those gentleman adventurers are phony and just make up or exaggerate their stories. Wax even says of Jak that he at least leaves his manor (implying that others of that type do not). Furthermore, after Wax discovered the Sovereign's Temple, artifacts of the Sovereign began appearing in adventurer stories. People on Scadrial like imagining adventure, but the comfort of the Basin has made them less likely to seek it outside of the Basin. 

Settlements in the Roughs are multiple decades old at this time. Its a few weeks by ship along the coast if we are to trust those maps. It is hard to explain why simple fishing vessels did not discover the South centuries ago.

On 21.12.2022 at 5:31 PM, offer said:

For the discussion the reference to Roshar is at chapter 39:

Another way to understand it I thought of now is that the travel is unavailable to the Ghostbloods specifically - maybe the radiants have won, they control roshar and after Shallan`s arc in RoW they stop any known GB agent trying to pass.

I am sorry, but that is extremely convoluted an explanation. It would require the access to three other systems, which the Radiants cannot reach due to their Spren, to be cut off for other reasons and recently so.

On 22.12.2022 at 1:57 PM, trav said:

An ongoing war would also mean it is not safe to visit Roshar.

Yes, but the same applies as to explaining why the access to Roshar is curtailed due to a victory in war. In fact, this explanation is even worse by far, because you now need to explain why Hoid has been spending years as Waxillium's coach man away from the war.

On 21.12.2022 at 0:17 PM, Heretic333 said:

Guys... what if Todium was forced to retreat... but he brought all of his Fused to Shadesmar?

 

As of the Cosmere timeline in The Lost Metal.. what if Todium is having a crazy freaking Spren conquest with all of his forces in Shadesmar?? Could this be what's happening during Era 2? What if the fused are razing spren cities to the ground..and establishing a beachhead at the perpendicularities? 

 

Again, unless it is an incredible accident that access to many worlds has just become much harder for independent reasons, just as a Desolation began on Roshar, you need to find a common explanation.

Quote

Ok ok. real talk though. I think Todium is going to crack down on Shadesmar. 

I am afraid you are thinking way to small. This looks like the restrictions on Fused leaving the Rosharan system have been broken. In fact, even Odium may have been freed. The war Hoid had been preparing for on Roshar has begun. Coalitions of Shards are clashing their forces.

On 25.12.2022 at 7:15 PM, Lesser spren said:

It was establised in BOM that if a culture doesn't have a word for something, it does not translate.

Northern Scadrian obviously has a word for light. The Scadrian system's gas giants having moons and Marasi having visited the university of Elendel, which uses a broad curriculum, is doubtlessly aware of them and will know a way of referring to them.

Even if you are using English, what justifies calling "moonlight" a word? Is "traffic sign" a word? Languages differ drastically in their ability to create new words from existing roots. We have no idea where on the scale Northern Scadrian lies.

On 25.12.2022 at 7:15 PM, Lesser spren said:

This is further seen in the term Ralkalast, refering to aluminum not translating to English in the language of the rose empire. Yet when Shai gives her name it translates even if Marasi has no understanding of the word. Is it possible that the word moon still exist in some vestigial form in scadrian like the word hound in axehound. If this is true then perhaps this will give us some clue as to why Kelsier invited a philologist on to his crew.

Scadrian has had multiple languages. We have no idea whether Ati and Leras used languages they knew when they created Scadrial. Hence it is unclear whether it can have vestiges from presumably Yolish.

On 26.12.2022 at 2:09 AM, CognitiveShadow said:

It’s just like in stormlight:

The ancestors of today's human Rosharans had hounds. The phenomenon that a word survives only in compounds is not rare, by the way. Do you think of "quoth the raven nevermore" when you read "bequeath" ? Or do you recognise the preposition in "midwife"?