Oltux72

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Oh I'm sure their is some kind of connection. At least one person has postulated the possibility that Re-Shephir is an unmade Aether 

The problem is that by that logic Nergaoul was an unmade emotional allomancer.

17 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

Can someone help me understand what is going on with silver on Lumar and Threnody?

It is inimical to certain Invested entities.

17 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

Why is silver allomantically inert on Scadrial when it appears to extinguish investiture on other planets of the cosmere?

Because it likely isn't inert. The kind of entity vulnerable to silver presumably just does not exist on Scadrial. Although we have no idea what were to happen if one were to go at Kelsier with a silver knife. Nor are the metals inert on Lumar and Roshar.

17 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

Aluminum acts that way in Allomancy but on worlds where silver has an effect, aluminum is an insulator and a concealer. On these worlds, aluminum is inert with regard to investiture, but it doesn’t eradicate it (in the way that silver does). 

Aluminium does not eradicate Investiture. It shields you from foreign Investiture. Allomancer Jak found spikes in an aluminium box and they were preserved.

There are a few points. We do not know when Hoid arrived on Lumar. That may indeed have been decades ago. In fact, if this was not a long time, why go through the effort of writing a letter to get help? He could have just asked for company right away. And how did Huck get on the right ship? Do we have to invoke Fortune?

12 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

However, both the oven and flare gun make use of "sunlight spores" that produce heat and light.  Does this not imply the existence of a Sunlight Sea (and therefore a Sunlight Moon)?

Some spores are reported to have a golden color. It would fit.

9 hours ago, Lightspen of the Glass Sea said:

This makes sense. The spores have to go somewhere, as they are always being added at the lunagrees. I was wondering why the oceans weren’t rising as an effect.

What allows the conclusion that they are not? The islands and the lack of continents look suspiciously like the spores having already flooded the continental lowlands and you are just seeing the highlands sticking out.

7 hours ago, robardin said:

• Hoid strikes the deal with Riina (curse him, but where that undoing the curse does something that grants him access to AonDor) 
• Mad Hoid becomes a "cabin boy" on the Whistlebow
  • I suppose he might have done this before being cursed, but that doesn't seem likely? ...
  • He wouldn't have been sailing on the Whistlebow to reach The Sorceress' stronghold. They wouldn't sail it. He got there some other way.
• The Whistlebow presumably makes a visit to The Rock while Tress is there, waiting for Charlie's cups.

That sequence would have required Charles to entrust a letter and a cup, which meant a lot to him, to a madman. That seems unlikely to me.

If you really want to resolve it without introducing the problem of the Whistleblow sailing to the sorceress I think you will need to introduce a third ship between it and Crow's Song. In that scenario Hoid was cursed after delivering the first cup and before Ulaam arriving, which means that the rest of the attempts to find a bride and Charlie's subsequent adventures took about a year. That is reasonable.

6 hours ago, Lightspen of the Glass Sea said:

That would definitely explain why the name sounds so familiar. 
The two names are so close, though. I mean, I don’t know why a kandra would change one letter in their name, but that seems like the kind of thing wouldn’t be a coincidence. 
 

Kandra names are strongly, even by the form they are written in, suggested to be a compund of two components. "Laan" is even a known component from another Kandra.

In such a system you are bound to get names that share the second "Albert" & "Robert" or first component "Albert" & "Alfred". "Laam" and "laan" differ only in the last consonant, but so do "same" and "sane". That is no surprise. The evidence is inconclusive.

4 hours ago, StanLemon said:

After learning from TotES that Riina had 'recovered' from her decrepit state that she and the other Ire were in in Secret History, I think that Era 1 takes place some time during the 10 year period of the Reod. Brandon has alluded that the Reod affected offworld Elantrians even if not so severely as it did to Elantrians who were on Sel. Additionally the description of the Elantrians of the Ire in Secret History always sounded halfway between Reod and proper Elantrians to me.

Then the mere fact would not be remarkable to Hoid. We can be pretty sure that TotES is at least a few decades after Era 2. That means that she would have centuries to recover and for Hoid to meet recovered Elantrians. And he was on Sel for sure, as he met Shai there.

It would also mean that Hoid met members of the Ire during that relatively short time. But during those years he was on Scadrial, not in Shadesmar and he was busy recovering Lerasium.

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Xisis was the first good canonical look we’ve had at an actual dragon, Cultivation aside, so I thought I’d round up some of the things we know now.

 

About Xisis specifically (unclear how much this is typical of dragons, and how much is just Xisis):

•  Xisis keeps ‘servants’, though other characters refer to them as slaves. He likes his ‘servants’ to be well-mannered, preferably skilled to begin with, and easy to train. He doesn’t care if they came to him willingly, and they’re not allowed to leave, but he makes sure their physical and emotional needs are well met (within reason).

That applies to every enlightened slaveholder.

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

•  Generally, Xisis seems short on empathy, but is interested and entertained by ‘mortals’.

Debatable. He may see mortals as a step below him like pets or live stock. You do not have empathy with the latter. We have no idea how he would behave towards another dragon. He(? - the beard suggests it) may be a genuinely niece ... serpent.

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

•  Xisis can make a cloth move ‘as if alive’ by waving a claw at it. The cloth then seems to react to Crow on its own.
• He can also reliably receive a message in a bottle dropped anywhere in his part of the sea.
•  Xisis makes a point not to interfere with the human societies on the planet where he’s living, though it’s okay that people know he exists, and he has no issue interacting with individuals who come to find him.

That may not be his own volition. For all we know he just wants no trouble with the 17th Shard, whose leader seems to be a dragon, too.

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

•  Xisis needs an ‘excuse’ for his decision to spare Tress. He does not explain why.
• Xisis implies that he fears Riina, and nobody else on Lumar. This suggests that a single, sufficiently skilled, Elantrian could realistically pose a threat to a dragon.
• Xisis is currently researching the ecosystem at the bottom of the spore seas, a backwater with little to no relevance to the cosmere at large. As of the events of Tress, he has been there for at least 300 years, possibly longer.

No, definitely no. The planet itself doesn't matter. What has happened to the Aethers, however, is extremely significant. In fact they might even destroy all but the most advanced worlds. The question we should ask is rather why he is the only one to study them. Or is he?

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

 

About dragons generally:

• Dragons encourage ‘mortals’ to respect and fear them, as this may prove useful later.
• To that end, Dragons make an effort to seed stories and legends about themselves through societies around the cosmere. They often visit forming societies for this purpose.
• Dragons hoard ideas, but are uninterested in traditional forms of wealth or treasure.

Or they simply have so much that adding to it is futile. He can feed, house and clothe a multitude of slaves at a remote location for centuries. He is certainly not poor.

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Questions I have:

• What is that thing Xisis does with the cloth? It looks like Awakening, but Xisis doesn’t speak to do it. Was the cloth ‘pre-programmed’ and just waiting to be turned on by a gesture?

Ehm, sorry, but what is he doing to the spores in the first place? He is moving a few thousand tonnes of spores at a minimum. Do you want to propose that he uses different powers controlling the spores and the cloth?

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

• How does Xisis ‘watch’ the sea? How does he know when someone throws in a message?

Fortune? Futuresight? Connection to the spores?

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

• Where does he get his servants from? Are they all from people like Crow, who find him and bring him a new slave in return for something?

Presumably Lumar has slave markets.

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

• Where did the objects he traded to Tress come from? How did he know Ann’s prescription? Or where Salary’s father was?

The Eleventh metals comes to my mind (the substance, not the story)

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

• Why does he need an ‘excuse’ to spare Tress? Is there some kind of enforced dragon code of conduct? Who would hold him to account?

Frost

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

• Why are dragons so weird about trades?
• Why is Xisis so interested in the ecosystem in the spore seas?
• Why is Xisis afraid to tangle with Riina?
• Why is it so rare to see a dragon, if they have no problem interacting, and like collecting information and trading?

Because they are rare?

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

At incredibly high heightenings awakeners can awaken with mental commands.

1. We do not know how Awakening interacts with the inherent Investiture of an Awakener. The awakened object needs to be invested with Breaths, but the awakener himself?
2. There are multiple systems that could do it. Awakening, Surgebinding and probably AonDor. Yolen is known to have Microkinesis which looks like a superset of Stoneshaping. A Stoneward can use clothing as a weapon. That would seem to be the obvious solution.
3. No strange color effects around him

31 minutes ago, Shacharma said:

As to Raiina, he could be more powerful but simply not a warrior type and therefor wouldnt want to go against somone with enouhg power who does know how to use it effectively for offensive purposes

If it came to a clash, could he afford to let her live with him on the same planet possibly plotting for revenge? Suppose he kills her. Then what? If the Ire still exists, will they investigate? Will the other dragons look favorably on a fellow dragon who angers the Ire?

Killing and war will become necessary from time to time. Preparation for the eventuality is necessary. But seeking them is a notion you should fear. Beings who do not do not survive for thousands of years.

10 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I agree that Hoid is referring to ships from a different system. Why would that rule out technologically advanced planets? Once the space age is underway, I would assume all planets have been landed on by ships from at least one other system. This information rules out nobody.

Because then he would simply say "of your space ships". Stressing the landing part makes no sense. The star ships surely still have their computer when they start again.

10 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Also, I see a lot of people latching on to the Aviar reference as a hint that the audience is from First of the Sun. I think that’s a bit of a leap. Lots of people know what an Aviar is; Aviar have been traded to other planets via Shadesmar for ages (Mraize had one way before the space age). Aviar are probably common knowledge by this point. And the ‘around the world’ vs ‘around their world’ phrasing is just how that phrase goes.

Yes, but presumably far fewer people know that aviars are used to hide from telepathic sea monsters. Though we cannot rule out that he is speaking in a lecture hall in Silverlight to a grouo of students from another world who would know the story or something similar. The evidence looks suggestive to me but far from definite.

8 hours ago, Kaladong Stormguy said:

So unless knowledge of the role suddenly became far more widespread, I don't think we can say that people on other planets or even other nations know of that title. Wit does continue to use that as his name on Roshar, but he doesn't really act in that role after WoK.

And that is kind of the point. He is the chief advisor to the queen by now, yet is keeping the old title. Its meaning has started changing.

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

Also, I’m sorry to nitpick, but Hoid doesn’t say that the audience’s planet has been invaded by ships. He says that ships have landed. Here’s the quote:

In the late cosmere, any planet could have interstellar ships land in order to trade, explore or just establish contact. So, again, this could be anyone.

It heavily implies that the ships landing on that planet do not originate on the planet they are landing on. Hence the technologically advanced planets can be ruled out. By the procress of elimination that leaves: Threnody, Sel and First of the Sun (and of course many planets totally unknown or mere names - but that is unproductive)

And then there is the mention of somebody sailing around the world without aviar.

27 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I agree that, theoretically, offworlders could be running some kind of interplanetary trade from Lumar without the natives knowing. But there’s no evidence of that happening in the text. If Riina were harvesting and selling spores, or doing any similar business on Lumar, it would be strange for Hoid not to mention it.

Would he know? Hoid is many things, but an engineer or merchant?

The thing is that those spores have rather obvious applications. If they hadn't the native ships wouldn't carry a crewman dedicated to them. And to a technologically developed world they would increase in utility. Fire without fuel. A godsend (well, aethersend) for the environment. No air in your space capsule. Zephyr to the rescue. Emergency food for a downed pilot. Verdant does the job. Need to observe the inaccessible inside of a machine. Midnight will do the job.

Why not sell them if you are literally floating in them?

27 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

And as for Riina’s sense of self-preservation, the midnight spores aren’t a threat to someone of her level of ability. 

And if Glorf had carried a bag of crimson spores on her person? She needn't even throw them. Inside her pants and ready for suicidal urination would be enough.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Considering how slowly singer reproduce, not much. The human population would grow faster and they'd begin to expand outward.

Hence breaking your own strategy. Only that now you have a population that is not used to farming and will have to expand into areas the Singers have devastated.

And the settlers to be would be quite likely to die. That will be excellent for morale.

13 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I guess part of my issue is, if humanity survived with just 10 Heralds then why didn't the desolations become incredibly one sided once the Radiants appeared? The later Desolations were still huge threats. Yet there were presumably hundreds and possibly low thousands of Radiants, who are by 4th ideal each far harder to kill than a Herald. (Kalak died to thunderclasts repeatedly. Renarin laughs one off without Plate. Sure, that's probably Progression but I don't see them having much luck against Radiants with live Plate and full Stormlight healing.)

Because Odium in turn gave his forces more firepower presumably. In fact the bestowal of the Surges onto the Fused may have been exactly that counter.

13 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

The implication seems to be loss of infrastructure/technology as the Desolations came closer together... but with the "get everyone close to Oathgates" strategy its not clear you really need infrastructure. There's hardly a point in having regular humans fight then, and the logistic capabilities of Soulcasting are so utterly extreme that regular infrastructure becomes kind of meaningless very fast.

Think this through. You do that consequently for years. Singers settle the abandoned lands. They reproduce. What will happen after a few decades?

This is a beautiful example of a sound tactic being awful strategy.

13 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

IMO things make far more sense if Radiancy developed slowly, the early Radiants did not have the full powers (less advanced healing more like what a Honorblade gives, less efficient Surges, no Plate) as the spren were still perfecting the process. And maybe fewer spren were involved at the beginning?

They doubtlessly did. But to more than the current radiants. Look at the remnants like the barrier seen in Rhythm of War in Urithiru or the old fabrials. All that took time. But that was not limited to one side. No bioweapons so far for example. Imagine what combined arms teams of Reals and Fused who have Futuresight can do.

23 minutes ago, Blackhoof said:

Interesting to see that in E2 all these far-reaching regions even further than the Roughs have names, which seems a bit interesting because as far as we know no-one really lives out there, so the names are just for administrative purposes on a map. You don't really need a name for a place no-one goes to or travels to.

Interesting that we named all planets hundreds of years ago.

25 minutes ago, Kaladong Stormguy said:

Could very likely happen considering she's held/holding a Dawnshard, haha.

23 minutes ago, Yuliya said:

@Oltux72 I realize that Rysn would have to be several hundred years old by the time of the story, but considering that she is holding a Dawnshard, it doesn't seem impossible at all. The two people we know to hold one (Hoid and Sigzil) both do not age normally, so perhaps neither does she.

Both true, but by that time Hoid wouldn't need to explain to her what a computer is.

25 minutes ago, Kaladong Stormguy said:

I dunno, this doesn't feel equivalent to me. I agree that knowing Hoid as Wit might not be exclusive to Roshar, but I also don't think that his title as the King's Wit is as widely known in the Cosmere as the King of England is on Earth. So I think his reference to being Wit is at least slightly noteworthy. It could mean that either the audience is someone from Roshar (and specifically Alethkar since I never got the impression the role was widely known, even Kaladin needed it explained to him at first iirc) or that they're particularly knowledgable about other cultures in the Cosmere.

23 minutes ago, Yuliya said:

I am not British. Can you explain why Charles III and the title of King's Wit are connected?

Roshar is one of the (two) big powers of the Cosmere in the late stages. People in those cases know more about those foreign governments than you might assume. Just as you both knew who the British monarch or the leaders of China and Russia are. I also assume that you know how the heir to their throne is titled, who the British prime minister is and where he resides.
We cannot rule out that the King's Wit has become a title like Prime Minister and that normal people in other countries know their titles. For all we know Hoid goes under the name "Hoid" only on primitive worlds.

And there is a sad aspect we have to face when talking about dates. Where is Design?

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

Is there any evidence of organised or regular trade between Lumar and other planets? It seemed to me that the crew of the Crow’s Song would be more aware of other planets, and the goods that come from them, if that were the case. The level of cosmere awareness they have seems more consistent with sporadic visitors than actual trade.

Trade between Lumar and the rest of the Cosmere as compared to trade between the natives of Lumar and other worlds are distinct concepts. For all we know Riina was running an awakend ship collecting spores and shipping them offworld with all the profits ending up in her pockets.

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

As for the original question — I don’t think Riina has a goal. She left Lumar far too easily for it to have been important to her to be there.

Well, see, the problem I have here is that somebody who has a healthy sense of self-preservation would choose a world, where taking a deep breath can kill you, without a clear goal.

3 hours ago, Yuliya said:

My theory is that Hoid is telling the story to Rysn.

Her minimum age at that point would be around 400 going by the Iriali reference. Now, she could be a worldhopper, but then he would not need to explain concepts like a laptop.

3 hours ago, Yuliya said:

First, the audience should be from Roshar, since no one else would understand the title of King's Wit.

Are you British? If not, do you know who is the king of England?

3 hours ago, Yuliya said:

Second, Ryan owns a ship and would relate to nautical references. Third, she holds a dawnshard, so it is reasonable to suggest that Hoid would decide to talk to her at some point.

As for the Aviars, we have seen two on Roshar already, and since the story probably happens in the second half of Stormlight series, spaceships make sense as well.

These points apply on every developed world with oceans at the time in question.

1 hour ago, Kaladong Stormguy said:

The only thing that gives me pause about these two candidates is that I can't see either being familiar with things like laptops or fluorescent lighting in office buildings enough for Hoid to namedrop them. That makes it sound like his audience is someone whose planet is in the information age, but still pre-interstellar travel. The only place/time that I can think of that fits those parameters is Era 3 Scadrial. Plus he also has some Push/Pull references in the story.

Unlikely bordering on impossible for timing reasons. It would mean that the Iriali reference is really misleading.

The Iriali left around 300 to 350 years (converting into standard years) ago. They must have spent at least a few decades before that on Lumar. And it would mean that Sazed has to release the Kandra immediately at Era 2 time.
Interstellar travel has to be common at that time.

1 hour ago, Kaladong Stormguy said:

Not to mention Tress's weird knowledge of Marsh as Death.

Again, timing. Tress knows that. That means the legend has to spread.

9 hours ago, robardin said:

But from an off-world perspective she’s not blocking trade. She’s taxing it. Basically setting up a tollbooth.

Yes. That limits her profits. If she takes too much, either somebody powerful will come in and remove the obstacle, or the aethers are not so valuable and demand will dry up.

9 hours ago, robardin said:

I don’t think she necessarily came to Lumar JUST for the toll collection racket, but it seems to be the most tangible benefit. And the planet may be known but not well known - Hoid’s comment, She’d come to this planet because nothing here could threaten her. Then she’d found a dragon living here, suggests she may have thought she was the first powerful off-world person to arrive (versus ordinary worldhopper migrants, tradesfolk, and curiosity seekers).

OK, altered theory. The spores are valuable. So the spores must flow. This is an Arrakis situation. She is the neutral party the big customers have agreed upon to meet the spore quotas, as they cannot let one of their own control so important a resource.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

Its not that much methane nor is it pure methane.  You will also get a lot of CO2 and NO2 not to mention a lot of sulfur compounds.  We also don't know the oxygen content in the air.  I'd be much more worried about the smell.  The oceans must be awful. 

They are reported to not smell. The air on the open qcean smells better than a bit of preindustrial smog.

In TatES Hoid becomes an Elantrian. And Design does not show up.

(Secret Project #3)

(Secret Project #4)

From that I would conclude that this is the youngest of all Cosmere books, perhaps only postdated by First of the Sun. Perhaps even not that, if the talking minds in visiting ships have not yet shown up.

I took this as a real world reference to

Stanislaw Ulam

1 hour ago, robardin said:

It's no fun unless they know they're being tormented, eh?

Of course. I completely understand that one needs a hobby. But if you are into the evil overlady stuff - and I refuse to comment on whether that increases her allure - you 'll have to wear black leather and have some slaves to command and torment on hand.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

But seriously. What do we see her doing on Lumar, that might indicate her reason to be there, other than what she does in doling out curses? Let's assume that's merely her sadistic pastime - what is her proper business?

According to Fort, she set up in the Midnight Sea because it's accessible only from the one side (behind the dangerous Crimson Sea), and thereby "controls trade through the passage that connects the planet". Which must mean trade with off-planet partners (through a Perpendicularity on the Midnight Moon, or its Lunagree on Lumar, perhaps?).

These explanations concerning trade on the planet, while correct, are probably not worth the effort. She had ambitions to become a god. She is not seriously taking up extorting preindustrial primitives as a business. I'll consign them to the hobby category.

Now the spores may be valuable off planet. But the planet is known. It regularly gets visitors. Blocking trade with a valuable commodity is not conducive to your safety and health. This just is internally contradictory.

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

I've put some more thought into it and I actually came up with a new theory.  I think the spores at the bottom are crushed to death by those at the top.  Some are also destroyed by lack of water (they don't get much down there) and other nutrients while still others are seared to ash by volcanic activity.  When a plant (or in this case fungus) dies under such circumstances it will release light gases like methane.  Methane will then bubble to the surface.  The only effect on climate that I can see is a high potential for some acid rain along with a higher temperature (methane is a greenhouse gas) but the right ecology could counter both of those effects.

The ships openly use fire. The planet would explode.

1 hour ago, nyxvoid said:

Unmade are decaying ? like fused that lose their mind when their soul becomes worn and thin enough and lose their will? they (Unmade )are type 1 invested beings , investiture come alive because it was a big chunk of investiture . they are immortal . 

They are also slave soldiers. That makes their loyalty questionable. The more time they have the more they'll scheme. And Odium had already lost one.