Fanghur Rahl

Wizard's Third Rule: "Passion rules reason, for better or for worse." Especially when Odium's around.

I'll definitely grant you that. They certainly were much more shallow as characters in Elantris for sure. Then again, Scadrial had its fair share of R-rated cartoon villains too; though admittedly, in their case one could always handwave it by assuming that Ruin was driving them to that that way. I just think that the whole system on Scadrial was completely unnecessary in terms of its sheer brutality. A benevolent yet harsh dictatorship would have worked just as well; then again, I suppose Ruin was to blame for much of his cruelty.

I actually disagree with you about this. If anything, I think that the nobles in Elantris are the MOST human of all the nobles in Sanderson's various series; certainly way more so than Mistborn Era One. Generally speaking, power does not almost universally make human beings evil into an organized class of sadistic psychopaths like on Scadrial. Roshar was somewhat more realistic in that yeah the nobles were far from angels but at least they didn't routinely go around murdering, torturing and raping innocent underlings willy-nilly as if such behaviour was completely alright; Rosharan culture kind of reflects the kind of division of power and status of certain medieval societies and monarchies. Scadrial on the other hand, well. I think even the worst sociopaths in the history of humanity would blanche in horror at how evil that society was. By comparison, the system on Sel was basically just a rather unsustainable Plutocracy where greed was rampant. I can't think of any way in which the system on Sel was in any sense 'less human' than the one on Scadrial; some might even argue that many first world countries are like that right now, in effect if not by law.

Of all the Cosmere books I've read/listened to, I probably liked Elantris the least. Though only in the sense that I like chocolate less than ice cream; I still liked it.

Since my educational background is biology, I confess I was a bit annoyed when I found out that Sanderson fell into the absurd cliche of having two completely different species with radically distinct physiologies on top of it being able to not only have the desire to but also the ability to produce viable hybrids. I realize that this is fantasy, but that's always irritated me whenever I see this cliche. It's basically equivalent to expecting two completely independent civilizations to meet for the first time and discover that they both independently developed the English language. And even if you want to handwave it away by saying that Adonalsium deliberately created all life in the Cosmere to be capable of interbreeding, considering their radically different physiologies, the Horneaters and Herdazians should have way more distinctions from ordinary humans than just an extra pair of molars and strong fingernails respectively. Scientific rant officially ended for now. lol.

That’s what I thought. Thanks.

Do we know for certain which level of Radiant Dalinar is by the end of Oathbringer? Ever since I read it, I've been under the impression that he's currently of the third ideal (assuming that he didn't skip straight to the fifth with his 'I am Unity' proclamation), but someone on the Stormlight Archive Facebook group recently claimed that there was a Word of Brandon in which he said that in fact Dalinar is only a level two by the end of Oathbringer, but the WoB in question was only a paraphrase. Is anyone who knows the WoBs better than me able to clarify this?

Interstellar asteroids maybe? Or a barren lifeless planet?

I don’t see how that would follow, unless you mean the creation of a bunch of ‘Ruinspren’ or what have you, in which case I would simply ask “So what?” As I understand it, Spren or their equivalents are unable to leave their place in Shadesmar. So even if Ruin’s shattered remains in interstellar Shadesmar did result in a bunch of sentient Spren-like splinters, ther still wouldn’t be anything out there for them to damage. Plus, Odium doing that same thing to Dominion didn’t result in a swarm of Dominionspren spreading throughout the Cosmere causing havoc. Sel’s equivalent of Spren seem just as confined to Sel as true Spren are to Roshar. Or am I misunderstanding your point?

I actually hadn't looked at it that way, and you do make a valid point. The only potential problem is that despite what Ruin says, it is not merely a Shard of entropy. It happily destroys things long before their time comes (if it was merely a force of entropy and natural decay, it moved on Scadrial at least a few hundred million years early). For that reason, I have a hard time seeing it being content to play that kind of game with Cultivation. Cultivation may be more willing than Ruin in that respect, since Cultivation could arguably encompass evolutionary development as well, in which case she might well be able to make use of a system of cyclical mass extinctions as a mechanism in her cultivating. However, I can't see Ruin being satisfied with it; from what we've seen of him, even with a supposedly kindhearted Vessel, he seems very much to have a 'total genocide and move on' kind of mentality if Scadrial is any indication. I agree though if Ruin were a bit less zealous, the cyclic mass extinction by Ruin vs re-evolution by Cultivation could well work; they might even look at it like a kind of game or competition. If that's how Ati looked at it, couldn't he have just taken the Shard, travelled with Preservation to interstellar space, and then have Preservation or some other Shard splinter his Shard and sequester it in Shadesmar where it can't do any damage? That would seem the obvious solution.

Sorry, that was meant to say 'unoccupied'. Siri's clearly having a bad day. lol. And I know, I was just speculating on the possible implications of that. All the worlds we've seen so far appear to be relatively close together; a few hundred light years or so. But it's interesting to speculate what else might exist out there beyond Shardic territory.

And also, what would an occupied planet that lacked a perpendicularity look like in Shadesmar between two Shardworlds? Does Shadesmar extend beyond Cosmere and into other galaxies as well? Presumably it would have to.

Then again, Adonalsium presumably knew about all of space in the Cosmere. And given that it was God, presumably that would have given all of the Cosmere a cognitive aspect. Though maybe they disappeared when Adonalsium was shattered.

Kind of also begs the question of what would happen if an Elsecaller transitioned to Shadesmar in the middle of an unknown location in interstellar space; what would she see?

The way I look at it, worldhopping using Shadesmar is for all practical purposes equivalent to hyperspace in hard sci-fi. Basically transitioning to a different realm where distance in one is radically different than in the other. The main difference, though, is that you can’t just enter or exit anywhere you like in the case of Shadesmar (well, maybe Elsecallers could, but generally you can’t). And presumably the Cosmere galaxy contains vastly more planets than just those that have Shards and hence perpendicularities on them. So developing an alternative form of FTL travel that doesn’t have that limitation makes complete sense. Another interesting thing to think about is what effect building interplanetary/interstellar bases would have on Shadesmar. For example, if they were to construct some kind of Stormlight-powered megastructure in the space between Scadrial and Roshar in the Physical Realm, would that effectively cause Shadesmar to ‘expand’ to accommodate it?

The way I look at it, worldhopping using Shadesmar is for all practical purposes equivalent to hyperspace in hard sci-fi. Basically transitioning to a different realm where distance in one is radically different than in the other. The main difference, though, is that you can’t just enter or exit anywhere you like in the case of Shadesmar (well, maybe Elsecallers could, but generally you can’t). And presumably the Cosmere galaxy contains vastly more planets than just those that have Shards and hence perpendicularities on them. So developing an alternative form of FTL travel that doesn’t have that limitation makes complete sense. Another interesting thing to think about is what effect building interplanetary/interstellar bases would have on Shadesmar. For example, if they were to construct some kind of Stormlight-powered megastructure in the space between Scadrial and Roshar in the Physical Realm, would that effectively cause Shadesmar to ‘expand’ to accommodate it?

Maybe, but even if we grant that, it’s still the case that Preservation is equally opposed to Cultivation as he is to Ruin. So I can’t help but wonder if all three of them mightn’t’ve been drawn to the same system. Also, while it’s true that Cultivation probably has to destroy in order to achieve her (presumed) goal of net growth, the same also holds true for Ruin. As you said, Ruin is willing to create in order to achieve its goal of a net destruction. Again, they’re polar opposites. So it’s interesting to speculate about how the history of Scadrial might have progressed differently if either all three of them were there, or just Ruin and Cultivation without Preservation. I suspect in the latter case, the net result may have been equivalent to a system containing only Preservation, albeit perhaps not in quite the same way.

Well, I guess. But it could be said that ingenuity is the ‘aptitude’ of being creative. Regardless, I just think ‘Aptitude’ works better as a proper noun than ‘Ingenuity’ does. At any rate, the two concepts are clearly closely related if nothing else.

This is obviously purely philosophical, but I was just wondering, if not for her relationship with Honor, would Cultivation have been drawn to Scadrial either instead of or in addition to Preservation? People often say that Preservation and Ruin were both drawn to Scadrial because of their opposing intents, kind of like two poles of a magnet. But strictly speaking Ruin and Preservation are NOT opposites. Ruin is essentially regression and Preservation is essentially stasis. The true opposite of Ruin is actually Cultivation, at least if we assume that her overall intent is growth/progression, which appears to be the case from what little we’ve seen of her. Preservation is effectively smack in between Ruin and Cultivation in terms of intent. And indeed, I would think that if someone were to simultaneously hold the Shards of Ruin and Cultivation, the result very well might effectively be a second more powerful Shard of Preservation, since the net effect of their two intents would cancel each other out. Anyone have any thoughts?

Personally, I think ‘Aptitude’ would be a better name for a Shard than ‘Ingenuity’. But who knows?

Indeed. A reversal of reversal of expectation as it were.

Alright, I’m that case, consider my argument against it being Autonomy retracted. Though someone really ought to update the relevant Coppermind pages, as the Autonomy and Obrodai pages, respectively, make no mention at all of each other and neither does the TV Tropes page.

Era 1 Mistborn was basically the ultimate reversal of expectation as far as Vin and Ruin were concerned; the whole second book has you worrying that Vin would be tempted to keep the power of the Well and screw the world up even more, but then it turns it on its head by revealing that it’s actually releasing the power that screws the world up by releasing Ruin.

That’s true, but as I understand it, and admittedly I’m far from up-to-date on my WOBs so I’m just going on what Coppermind says and assuming it’s up-to-date, the Obrodai Shard hasn’t actually been confirmed as being Autonomy, that’s just what people have assumed. So technically what Brandon said could be true, as we have ‘seen’ that Shard, and yet we might still not know its identity. That’s my suspicion, because it does tend to have a bit of an avaricious or jealous vibe to it from what we’ve read, what with it creating avatars on multiple worlds to claim them as its own and discouraging Hoid from interfering with its affairs, so it could very well be Avarice. But like I said, maybe I just need to get caught up on the WOBs.

Well, like I said before, I still can’t help but suspect that Autonomy might be a red herring and the true threat one of the remaining as-yet unknown Shards; presumably of a more malevolent nature. The way I see it, we’ve so far only seen two unambiguously malevolent Shards, Odium and Ruin, with Dominion being a potential third but not necessarily, and I think there has to be at least one more. Possibly Avarice or Jealousy. It’s certainly plausible if nothing else.