Oudeis

Kurk: You clearly want to believe very strongly that this is true. Rather than sit here and continue to be insulted as you constantly claim victory while ignoring my points, I'm done talking with you. There are plenty of people on this forum willing to have a rational debate where they look at the facts before them and draw conclusions, rather than starting from "I want this to be true" and then following up every quote with, "Well I'm obviously right now."

Congratulations, Kurk. You've managed to get me to agree with Moogle. Your question was specific. Could an Augor Compound? His answer was direct. This is possible. Compounding, as we know it, specifically means "using allomancy to burn a feruchemical charge." That's the simplest, most direct, most intuitive interpretation of this answer to this question. Is it still possible that anyone can tap an identity-less metalmind, even if the person possesses no feruchemy? Maybe. Is that in any way suggested or supported by this exchange? Nope.

Oh? It seems pretty clear in the books. That's certainly exactly and precisely what you need to Awaken, and presumably it's no big step to define "Awakener" as "One who can Awaken." What other kinds of suggestions have you heard?

Hrm... I think we'd all agree that Shardblades would hurt them. I'd be surprised if Shardplate didn't offer at least some resistance, though possibly less than absolute. Everything else I say, is broadest speculation, just shots in the dark. First, I believe that shades are primarily spiritual beings, with the physical aspect we've seen, and very little in the way of a cognitive aspect. This will flavor most of my answers. I think they will have some reaction to Investiture. I have no idea what it is, and I'd guess it'd be different from any reaction we've seen so far. I don't think it'd send them flying into an immediate rage, but I suspect it would draw their attention in a negative way. I do think a coppercloud is the way around this; in fact, I personally believe that they would try to avoid the entire area of a coppercloud, the way they try not to bump into people unless they're provoked. I think you can Riot or Soothe a shade, but it's not terribly useful. Either will provoke them, since you're using Investiture, and really any emotion in them is prolly a bad thing (I doubt they have enough "compassion" or "national pride" on their own that Rioting these emotions would be at all helpful) and I think at best, Soothing could calm the provocation you're causing just by burning brass, and there are likely to be more shades in range to sense you than you can Soothe. I think The Flaw was crafted specifically by Ruin as an aspect of hemalurgy which is an art related to allomancy, so I would be very surprised if you could control them with Soothing. I would suspect you cannot Soulcast a shade. I think their presence in the cognitive realm is tenuous enough to prohibit such an attempt, and I don't think their substance is "physical" enough for you to affect, anyway. I am not at all sure of this, however. Hemalurgy is said to be universal... it largely depends on what bindpoints are. I suspect that they are spots on your body that correlate directly to aspects of your spiritweb. In my opinion, shades have more prominent spiritwebs, and less prominent bodies. So, you might be able to use hemalurgy by bypassing the need to go through the body, and stabbing their spiritweb in the exact right spot? Which might steal... I don't know? Perhaps just suck the shade in entirely, like ghostbusters? I do not think they could receive a spike. If they could, I don't think you could get the spike to stay in them. ChayShan, who knows? I don't believe Chromium has any effect on "innate Investiture", which is what I believe shades are predominantly made of, so I'd say no, leeching one wouldn't do much. Perhaps it'd have some effect? Like to stun a shade, or slow it down? I am sure you could not Awaken one, though honestly I think you could maybe give it Breath... which might react very oddly, giving it back some semblance of life, or it might just eat the Breath. Could you make it into some sort of Lifeless? That sounds awesome, so I'm gonna wildly speculate that yes. You can turn a shade into a Lifeless and give it Commands, but unless it feeds, it will consume its own Breath like a Returned, and go back to mindless destruction. There's also the issue of the damage you receive to touch it and give it the Breath and the Command. Returning... depends on how Returning works. I think a shade is what's left of the spiritual aspect of the last shade's victim, so... if Returned lose their spiritweb, but have it replaced with a Splinter of Endowment that inhabits their body and cognitive aspect, then yes. Your own spiritweb could turn into a shade, and the Splinter would still re-animate your body as a Returned. You might share a cognitive aspect with the shade which would be all manner of weird. If, instead, all three of your aspects are preserved, if the Splinter simply binds them together again and keeps them alive, then no, you cannot both become a shade and Return. No idea how shades would interact with spren. Prolly ignore most spren. The intelligent spren... again, I dunno. Prolly just avoid their specific immediate area, like they do with people. If a provoked shade ever attacked a sentient spren... I dunno. I'd say the shade would prolly just straight-up eat it, and would not create a new shade. I think you lose any ability to access Investiture when you are a shade. I don't think a feeding shade gains anything from eating someone with Investiture. I think they would attack anything with Innate Investiture, though obviously it has to be alive. They attack hunting animals, so they'd surely attack parshendi or koloss. I think they would attack mistwraigths, though if you think about it mistwraiths are almost perfectly evolved to evade shade predation. They don't move fast, don't use fire, and don't spill the blood of their victims. I suspect that, if provoked, they would, in fact, attack an Awakened rope. What would happen if you Commanded a rope, "Go over there and start a fire"? Would it kill just the rope, and if you were far enough away to avoid the frenzy, you would remain safe? Or would it "feel" your connection back to the rope, and hunt you down? I find that last one very confusing. The shades attacked a woman because her horse stepped on a striker the woman didn't know existed. Exactly what level of logic stops exactly there, not blaming the horse, who did the actual action, or Silence, who set the whole plan in motion? Why was this woman blamed for "I rode this horse down a path, but didn't pick out every footstep he made, and had no idea there as a bomb"? So yeah, i have no idea how shades would decide Awakened ropes work.

So, is it universally accepted that the "wall" is a unique phenomenon? In every other circumstance, you simply feel like you're pointing a hose with your eyes close; it could be making it into the bucket, it could be splashing on the ground, you have no way to know. So it wouldn't feel different if you were trying to Soothe a rock, or a mannequin that you've confused for a human, or a Smoker currently protected from your power.

But wouldn't that imply that it would be crazy easy to find a kandra? If anytime you Soothe a kandra you get the sensation of a wall, and anytime you Soothe a human you feel nothing, couldn't you just Soothe everyone until someone felt like a wall?

How do shades respond to Investiture? Is it possible that it would provoke them? Would they see it as the equivalent of movement? Of igniting flames? Does it have its own reaction? Do they not react? Can you Soothe/Riot a shade? Can you control a shade via emotional allomancy? Would copper hide your activities from a shade? Can you soulcast a shade? Would a shardblade hurt a shade? Can shades be victims of hemalurgic theft? Can they receive hemalugic spikes (that last one would admittedly take some very specific doing)? Would they react to shardplate like it were silver, or a simple barrier, or what? Would they feel the strike of ChayShan? Can you Chromium Leech one? Could you give one Breath? Could you Command one? If a shade worldhopped to Nalthis and killed a man who had a Breath, could that man Return? If you had a lot of Breath, would the shade eat the Breath instead, giving you time to escape as your sacrifice your Breath? How do shades interact with spren? Are they considered human? Do they have spiritwebs and cognitive aspects? Would someone who could use Investiture while alive retain the ability as a shade? Would the "feeding" shade take that part of your spiritweb? Do they only target humans? Would they attack a kandra, koloss, new-koloss, parshendi, or aimian? Would they attack an Awakened rope?

EDIT: This theory has been, if not conclusively, then fairly solidly, disproven. When attempting to Soothe anyone subject to the Ruin Flaw of hemalurgy, Vin always points out that it feels like she's pressing against a wall. But does this make any sense? There's no other time that emotional allomancy provides any sort of sensory feedback, that I recall, anyway. What does it feel like to simply Soothe someone? Do you get a sense back that your power is working? How does it feel if you try to Soothe a Smoker? Is there a wall there, too? What happens if you try to Soothe a spoon? How does that feel?

I kinda took it as Sazed's own mind, spurred by his instinctive Feruchemical sense that he was touching metal he could use. I'm sure I've read WoB that when a Keeper, even an untrained one, touches metal, he gets an inherent feeling that there's something he could do with it. I just sorta figured that Sazed started getting that bizarre yet familiar sensation, and the part of his brain that recognized it started yelling, "Yo, gelding! Metalminds here! Wake up!" Could it have been Kelsier? He didn't yet have the power of Preservation, as the Shadow of Self was still kicking around, yeah? And we've heard that he could only speak to Spook because Spook truly believed in his divinity... does Sazed's "all religions have an element of truth" count?

An Awakener is anyone who has somehow acquired enough Breaths to Awaken, and also has the knowledge of the art required to use it properly. Though apparently simply having enough Breath is the same thing. Er... my Latin teacher told me it was ipsum, so on balance I'm going with her. Also, according to the translation program I just used to double check, "ipsum est" means "it is," which fits with how "i.e." gets used, while "id est" translates as "the is" which doesn't make sense. I could be wrong, but I hope you understand why I take the word of a Latin teacher over someone I talk with sometimes about fantasy novels. No offense is intended.

Well this is the part of the conversation when I usually start getting yelled at, and for good measure someone's already mentioned rape, so apart from saying that I agree with Porridge and I don't think the rest of you are thinking of all the actual implications, this is what I look like when I shut my mouth.

Illusion. And you can totally GO other places, you just lose your powers there. If you have enemies, that's when they would strike, but how many of us in this world have people actually out to kill them? I guess in the world we're describing, some people out there are hemalurgists, so you really just have to watch yourself constantly if anyone knows who you are. And with netflix, who ever needs to leave their house, let alone home city?

If you wish to know what it says.

The complexity of all those hybrid systems boggles my mind somewhat. Also, if it would result in anything, I doubt it would just create "compounding", or anything like "stealing Breaths". The one example we've got is feruchemy, and apart from the tin and pewter connection there's no real parallel, and even there they function very differently. Feruchemy isn't simply allomancy with a hemalurgic flavor, it's entirely unique. I would suspect that, much like the twinborn, mixing sDNA of different systems would simply result in one person getting a watered-down version of two different systems, not an entirely new power.

... Let me preface this by saying that I find this legitimately hilarious, and I'm simply pointing out a touch of irony; I myself have not been offended and I'm not trying to pick a fight, and if I offend anyone please let me know, I'll apologize and retract my statement. Are you legitimately trying to defuse a potentially heated debate by paraphrasing one of the most contentious slogans in one of the most contentious arguments America has ever seen? ^^;;; I'm simply going to restate something I mentioned earlier that you seem to have missed: TenSoon. Good guy hemalurgist. He even got a redemption arc. And that's it, that's all I have to say on the matter. I will stop now, as we all seem to be in agreement that there's no more to be said. Upvotes for everyone!

Yes. LaughingJokingKidding! However silly and hyperbolic my joke was, I honestly meant it. There are some acts, like baby-eating, that are the purest of black in all but the most extreme and contrived of circumstances. Killing someone and ripping out their soul so you can use their power... you can feel free to speculate, but I don't think we're "losing" anything in the cosmere just because Mr. Sanderson doesn't find time/room to engage in a philosophical debate about how hemalurgy might have some redeeming qualities. As he mentions frequently in his annotations of most books, there's a lot he'd like to fit in, but just never has room for. This could be one of them. To turn one of your statements on its head... yes, most villains in the cosmere are relatable, they are the heroes of their own viewpoints. So isn't it exciting that, here, just once, he breaks with that tradition? You've grown so used to moral conflicts being a matter of perspective, and then BAM, out of nowhere, here's this magic system that's unrepentantly evil. Never saw it coming. This is why I read this guy, always breaking out of his own comfort zones. There's a thread somewhere about what kind of villain Ruin is, and I likened him to Ursula from the broadway version of The Little Mermaid. There's a woman who isn't ashamed of her dark side. She doesn't hide it, or deny it, or justify it away, or lament how much she's suffering under the guilt of all the torture she commits. She's a villain, not a vanillain. She's a bad guy, and she owns it. I frankly find her very refreshing, much more honest than most other antagonists who always whine and make themselves out to be some sort of victim. Here's part of her song, "I want the good times back." I wanna make the merfolk cower like they did in days of yore. Sure, it's sheer abuse of power; so? Ain't that what power's for? I wanna taste their tears. I wanna hear their screams. I want that special rush you get from crushing hopes and dreams. She's got a confidence beyond what I've seen in most any other villain I've come across, and it's amazing. She lets her freak flag fly. So bring it on, I say. Why are we lamenting because hemalurgy is breaking the mold? Why are we acting like it would somehow be more interesting or unique if it had the exact same attributes as literally every other system of magic (except maybe voidbringing). Let it be evil, let it be proud of its own attributes. It doesn't need our approval; it doesn't need to judge itself by our moral standard and justify itself by finding some excuse why it "isn't that bad". Better to reign in hell! I say we rejoice in hemalurgy, the only magic system we know a lot about so far that manages to be more than a simple tool to be used however you wish. Hemalurgy is a wild stallion that cannot be broken; can never be hitched to a plow or broken to saddle. It will ever range free, being as nature intended it to be! You go, hemalurgy! Don't listen to them tell you you have to conform yourself to their standards. Be the evil, soul-shredding art you were born to be.

Voidbringers? We know less about it, but it's certainly considered villanous. The Kandra, tensoon specifically, and even Human the Koloss, are as "good" as most characters get. Also... what's wrong with an art being villanous? "I can't wait to see one of the good guys eat a baby. So far, baby-eating has been something only bad guys do..."

How specifically do you measure how much lifting power a human should have? Are you talking "flapping your arms like wings"? I actually really, really like to imagine a Gasper opera singer who can hold a note for seven minutes straight....

My theory differs from yours on one critical point... you seem to believe that humans on Nalthis have, on the one hand, a soul, and stuck onto it is the Breath, which is Innate Investiture, which can be given away. My theory is that the entire spiritweb is made up of "Innate Investiture", the way a cobweb is made up of filaments. With the intervention of Endowment, Nalthians have the native ability to take a part of this and give it away, like cutting out a section of the cobweb and sticking it onto another cobweb. I believe that they're handing over their Innate Investiture; just not ALL of their Innate Investiture. So at this point, it's slightly a question of semantics. Innate Investiture means the building blocks, like how we'd talk about LEGOS. The spiritweb is a construction made of Innate Investiture, like how you can use LEGOS to build a castle. In this case, I'd say that "soul" is just a title, a word we use for the very special spiritweb that's attached to something sentient. But I'm just spit-balling. I suppose, in an attempt to get a roundabout answer, could we ask, "could a regular coinshot Push on metal piercing a drab's body?" If you can, then yes, they are giving away all of their Innate Investiture, or at least enough that a steelpush could overcome it.

What we know about mixing genetics (and sGenetics) is super complicated, and what we know about mixing magic systems (ipsum est, what would happen if Vivenna gave all of her Breath to Vin?) is almost non-existant. I personally suspect that there's an upper limit to how much Investiture any one person can have; the more types of magic you can use, the weaker you are at each, the less fine control you have. But that's just a guess; we'll have to wait for worldhopping to become common sometime around valentine's day to learn more. I just take it on faith that this is RAFO bait.

We know Lightsong, Calmseer, and Blushweaver all Returned with a specific purpose; is that universally true? Do all Returned, whether in the Court of Gods or elsewhere, have a Destiny? When Stennimar died and watched the world across a shimmering veil of color, where was he? Was he in the Spiritual Realm?

This raises an interesting point, actually... who named it the Expanse of Densities? And when? Sel was presumably not difficult to travel in before Devotion and Dominion Splintered. Does this name refer to what it looks like now, or what it looked like before? And to who? Hoid? Another worldhopper? Is it the word the Shards themselves use? If Densities is the word that the Shards know it by... perhaps it refers, then, to which Shard settled on that world? Do any of the Shard names so far sound especially "dense" to anyone?

That's actually a pretty common stance for me... once someone admits "I personally believe this even though I can't prove it to be true," I give them more-or-less this exact same response. The times I get bull-headed are when people say, "I believe this, also it's entirely correct and proven true despite a lack of evidence," and I try to point out that it's far from proven, and they simply restate their opinion again as though it's fact. "You know how I know it? Because I really think it!" -Karen Walker. (I can't find the exact quote, it may be paraphrased)

I was under the impression that there was a forum-wide rule on unpublished works, but I could be mistaken.

Hey, if there are going to be spoilers for unpublished works in this thread, is there a way some sort of warning could be put on it for those of us who haven't read them and don't want to know what happens?