Oudeis

And where, exactly, is the public condemnation against him? Where is an admin stepping up to say, "You are dismissing everyone who disagrees with you with broad, insulting, blanket statements that they must be moon-struck Kaladin fans"? I did not start the insults, and I wasn't the first person to turn nasty. I first politely told him that I was offended by his insinuation, and was told, "I have the right to say what I feel, and if you choose to get offended, that is your fault." Why is he being given more leniency than I am? I was not the instigator. I wasn't the first to say something mean. Why am I being publicly punished while he is being tacitly praised? This is grossly unfair. I am not "demanding" that he answer my point; I am asking him if he wants to, and pointing out in support of my own argument that I have a very good point that he's simply allowing to stand.

Interesting ideas, everyone. I'm not certain I'm sold on all of them. When one cultivates in real life, the way we use the word on earth, one encourages certain aspects and discourages others in an attempt to shape the future of the thing towards a certain goal. Like with the acorn and the oak, I really see this as more of a function of Growth than Transformation. It's entirely possible that the scientific concept of "ten fundamental forces" is based on the Surges, not vice-versa, but I'm not sure I buy that. It's certainly plausible, the way religion colors everything in Alethkar, up to and including scientific reason. I could easily be wrong; I suppose I've got nothing more than my gut saying it's not so. I suppose time will prove one of us right (or neither!) I agree, though that wasn't precisely my point. I know that Soulcasting is far more than a chemical change, just as a Basic Lashing is far more than "matter attracting matter". Surgebinding takes the natural and expands it to the fantastical. So the Surge of Growth takes seeds, which had the potential to grow into plants on their own, and forces them to grow at an impossibly accelerated rate. The Surge of Illumination causes light, which is a perfectly natural thing, to be generated from places and in colors it has no legitimate reason to generate from. Just so. Normal transformation might be "the chemical mix of eggs salt baking powder blah blah blah and boom you've got a cake". Knock that up a notch with stormlight, and you've got, "a crystal goblet is subatomically altered into a similar mass of blood".

Bloodfalcon, you wonderful intelligent person you. Forcing "moral arguments" into a binary system is a contrived and false analogy. There are never two options, there are thousands. There is no plausible situation where you are faced with the idea of, "Let your friend slaughter innocents" or "kill your friend." You can't say "lesser of two evils is more honorable" because you didn't have two evils, you had fifty evils, a few hundred gray areas, and maybe a couple of risky but plausible goods.

I wish it would let me both up- and down-vote you for this one.

Even if, would Rosharan's know that? Mixing up eggs and flour and so on to get a cake... is that what they see as the "transformation surge" in nature? Simply any chemical change? I suppose it's possible. It's a fact of nature, it's something Rosharans would have noticed, and I don't think it's covered by the other Surges. Does anyone else want to weigh in on this idea? I think skaa's got a point.

So you're still claiming that you've responded, in any way, to my actual point? Let's review. Please, feel free to show me the place where you discussed this point at all. Or, y'know, just make a few more comments about how everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. Either will work, apparently.

Um, sure? I mean, seven of them are. We don't know one Surge, and I'll admit "transportation" doesn't really seem to count either. We'd have to know a lot more about it before figuring out how it fits; does it simply refer to the fact that things go from place to place? Like migration? Or does it mean teleporting, in which case it'd be like Transformation, in that things don't frequently teleport and require an explanation, unless that's an aspect of life on Roshar so common no one has bothered mentioning it.

That is a ridiculous, over-the-top assumption that you cannot possibly back up or expect us all to believe. If an army is so fractious that one single rumor had a legitimate chance of tearing it to shreds, preventing one single rumor is not going to keep it afloat. You have yet again ignored the single point I keep asking you to address. Will you at least admit that you're simply going to ignore it?

But it's not about Surgebinding, since that's a relatively new thing. It is apparently commonly known among scholars of Roshar that there are ten fundamental forces that operate the laws of nature. Even though fission and fusion are possible, they're not something a people with Rosharan technology would notice. In short, outside of Surges and fabrials, there isn't a lot of otherwise-unexplained transformations occurring in the natural world which require a Surge to explain their existence. In Terry Pratchett's novel Hogfather, a central figure of belief is inhumed by the Assassin's Guild, and all the extra belief sloshing around causes theoretical mythic beings to pop into existence, like the Sock-Eater, and the oh God of Hangovers. At one point, the Dean tries to summon the "Give huge bags of money to the Dean fairy", but it fails, because there's not enough belief in such a being. He has not been mysteriously gaining huge bags of money that need to be explained by a myth. Just so, why would they have come up with the idea of a "transformation surge" without a lot of natural transformations happening around them which require explanation?

This, this, a thousand times this, welcome to the forums. As I am now bringing up for the third or fourth time, Amaram was not faced with two choices. Amaram could have had the Shards, and left the people alive. All the supposed benefits to civilization in his mind would have happened exactly that way. He kill them for two reasons. First, he just assumed they were awful, awful people who would stir up trouble. Second, if they were those awful people... what exactly would happen? The Shard Police would have shown up and made him give them back? No. It would have been bad for his reputation, there was no legitimate risk of anything worse than that. This is what it comes down to. He had the option to take all the good stuff that came from him stealing the Shards, and he didn't have to kill to do it; killing the people gained the world nothing but Amaram's own stellar reputation. This is why he's a repugnant person. Moogle and... that other name, the one that starts with a t and has all the consonants and I can't pronounce it. You keep saying your same points over and over again, and neither of you have addressed this point. Would you mind? How does this fit into your theory that Amaram's a carebear with the tummy-tat of Mother Theresa?

I disagree. We've never heard of matespren, but we have heard of passionspren. I don't think it's as obviously one-to-one as you think. And would that assume that there are dullspren? My point is, as someone else has said, we know next to nothing about the process. Saying that anything is a fairly safe assumption is incredibly premature. I don't believe Shen is a spy, but this isn't a reason against it. Parshmen don't get to say, "Excuse me, I'd love to be assigned to the bridge crews if you please, thank you so very kindly," they are property that barely talk, if they talk at all. I would guess that, especially as they're in dullform, listener spies simply go where they are told, and hope to come across some useful information. To clarify, I personally think he's still in slaveform. I think he's starting to act a bit differently because, as Eshonai points out, your form isn't the overriding drive most listeners pretend it is. He's starting to be treated like a person, so a little bit, in little ways, he's starting to act like a person. I think this is going to be a big part of what eventually leads him to discover a new form, perhaps with Shallan's aid to conjure him some creationspren. Random thoughts/conjectures: As a new listener recently freed from slaveform who really likes Kaladin, Shen becomes integral in the pursuit of peace between the races. He and Eshonai get it on. Their portmanteau, Eshen, is noticed to be a pretty good Veden name.

Gravity is a thing. Matter is attracted to matter. Surface tension? Look at the nearest puddle of water. Air pressure: It does breathing good. Illumination? My room is full of it. Friction happens naturally. Transformation? Um... I suggest that Transformation is the odd Surge out. It's the only one we know of that doesn't happen naturally. ((Disclaimer: I'm not sure we've ever seen Transportation in action. If it's teleporting, it could be the other odd Surge, but for now I'm leaving it (and the unknown Surge) out of this calculation since we know next to nothing about it). Things don't transform. Obvious exception: Seeds turn into trees. Caterpillars turn into butterflies. But those are both covered by Growth. Water turns into ice? I'm not sure I agree that this is the same thing. A man is naturally drawn downwards. Magically, the direction of that can be sent sideways. Seeds take in metabolic energy and grow into plants; stormlight provides an alternate energy source and adapts the rate of growth. These are all natural processes that change under the influence of Surgebinding. Crystal goblets are not in the habit of turning into puddles of blood for no reason. Men don't puff into smoke at random. There's no basic natural force at play which is being adjusted magically; its a wholly magical phenomenon to start with. And yes, nuclear decay, you can adjust the protons and turn iron into zinc. First, I don't really think that's at all the same thing, and second the culture of Roshar would not know enough about atomic structure to understand the idea. Just one man's opinion. Any thoughts?

You're basing this all on the baseless assumption that he is, in fact, feeling guilty about it. Before the bodies have finished bleeding, he's already telling Kaladin how this is all for the best, and telling Kaladin was a terrible person he is. "You would have come back for them." He's not "dealing with the guilt" by respecting the dead or bearing a burden or anything; he's dealing with it by telling himself, and Kaladin, "I did the right thing, so there's nothing to be guilty about. You're lying when you say I could have had the Shards, and rather than trust these men, who risked their lives for mine, I've chosen to kill them so I can silence them forever." As I've said. The only thing that would have been damaged if Amaram had let them live was his own reputation. He would never have had to give up the Shards, it would have had zero impact on his ability to "aid Alethkar". Simple solution: Buy the Shards from Kaladin. Get him to sign a document. Sure, people will know that you purchased them instead of earning them. Amaram's pride is the only obstacle in his way, and he made the choice to kill men because of it. No one, anywhere, on the internet or off, has the right to tell someone, "I know what you're thinking."

You just wrote off the merciless slaughter of four innocents in order to punish them for an action you assume they will some day perform as "some bad things like everyone does," as though it's on par with "After I left the store I realized I was given an extra doughnut, but I didn't go back and return it." He doesn't express "real remorse," he expresses justification. My point from before stands. If you're going to say that no man is a villain until he admits that he sees himself as a villain, that he doesn't think his acts are justified and he's gonna do it anyway, then you will never find any actual antagonist in any book series. Read Warbreaker. Every man is the hero in his own story. Lastly, it offends me when people ascribe intentions to my words and actions. Please don't presume that you have the right to tell me why I feel and say what I feel and say. If you choose to interpret the facts differently than I do, fine. If you're going to publicly comment that the only possible reason I could be blinded to the facts that seem so obvious to you is that I'm in love with Kaladin, you're wrong, and you're being very insulting. Again, this is nothing but excuses. Amaram didn't make a difficult choice, he made an easy choice. I get cool toys, and I make other people pay for it. He slaughtered them and publicly branded them as traitors to cover up his crimes, just because it would have been slightly awkward if they'd come forward later and claimed he didn't really earn them, all because he himself is so obsessed with Shards that he literally cannot understand the concept that others aren't. If all he cared about were, "you might ask for them back," fine, get one of your scribes to write up some sort of legally binding contract and buy the Shards from Kaladin. That's all the cover you need. Amaram slaughtered men who literally kept fighting as their brothers died, to save Amaram's own life. Could he possibly express true remorse sometime in the future and perhaps find some small measure of redemption? Maybe. But he's expressed no true remorse yet; his defensive "well I just assume you're a terrible enough person to deserve this" justification as he condemns Kaladin to slavery and tells himself what a wonderful man he is wouldn't recognize true remorse if it came at him with a Shardblade. Literally any villainous act can be wallpapered over with "good intentions" or "greater good" or "misguided" or "hard choices." If all you're saying is, no one ever does anything wrong because they can always justify it in their own minds, then, well, I just think people need to be held to a higher standard than that.

I think that only you can take the Breath from anything you've Awakened or stored Breath in.

When the highlight of your week is to head to your Friendly Local Gaming Store and be lauded as a hero for bearing the news of when Mr. Sanderson will be in the area to sign Words of Radiance.

Well, everyone can see Pattern, and I get the idea that Ivory is more hidden than usual; like he's not simply like Syl, fluttering around yet invisible, he's actually disappearing, hiding in Jasnah's shadow perhaps. Still, good point, it'll be interesting to see. Presumably Kaladin's guard duties will extend to Jasnah (if she safely makes it to the Shattered Plains) though Rock's not an actual guard. What are the odds she'd come down to the barracks? Though she does seem to take a perverse delight in doing what she oughtn't.

I suspect he is in slaveform, but will gain a form and show everyone how parshmen can become listeners again. Also, Duskshard, the idea of Honorform blows my mind.

I mean, sure, he slaughtered a group of men who risked their own lives and watched their brothers get slaughtered, all to save Amaram's own life, then told all and sundry that they were traitors, sold Kaladin into years of slavery, all to punish Kaladin for something Amaram assumed he'd do, just so Amaram could have a lot of glory and honor and fame. I mean, really, who among us can say they haven't ordered the deaths of their own most loyal followers for personal greed? Anyone? And sure, he eats the occasional puppy while it's still alive and crying for it's mother. A man's gotta eat. Amaram did a terrible, terrible thing for terrible, terrible reasons. There's not enough "I'm sorry" in the world. There's not enough guilt. Amaram is an awful person. I'm throwing my voice in here with the people who support the idea that Kaladin is unlikely to say, "Well, sure, I watched you kill my last remaining friends while the final man fell to his knees and begged you for his life... but hey, you seem like a nice enough chum, let's grab an ale!" There's a sentiment I see expressed frequently that, "well as long as the person himself believes he's justified, then he's not really bad." Um... no? Please point me to which villains in really any story admit, "yes, I know what I'm doing is unjustified, I'm doing it anyway, because I admit that I'm evil." That's no one. Believing that what you do is justified doesn't mean it is justified and it doesn't mean you're deep down a good person, it just means you're better at finding excuses than at being a good person. Amaram's awful, and no "redemption" could ever happen until he makes appropriate amends to fix what he did wrong, and that will require enormous sacrifice on his part. If he truly comes to accept, "I made a stupid choice, what I did was inexcusable, I'm a terrible man and the mistake I made that day literally haunts me every waking moment and keeps me awake at night terrified at the monster I've become, and I will spend the rest of my life trying to make up for it," and then does something like risk dying in order to save a group of his own soldiers, then yes. I'll agree that he deserves redemption. What I find more likely is that Kaladin will be faced with the opportunity to administer justice. He truly does have the claim on it. He'll have the opportunity to let Amaram die, Dalinar will be there and will say, "You have every right. Let that man die." And at Syl's urging, Kaladin will instead choose to act with honor, and let justice go, and he will save Amaram's life. And, I suspect, Amaram will at the least be publicly shamed, perhaps will exile. Kaladin is no more likely to take the Plate and Blade than he ever was.

...You seem to be basing this on the premise that creationspren are forces of nature, not emotion, and I disagree with that. I actually have a random thought. What if all spren have two aspects? The way Windspren are somehow closer to honorspren than other spren are... what if every spren has a natural aspect and an emotional aspect? So there's Spren Type A, and if someone starts a fire they will show up as firespren, and if someone is angry they will show up as angerspren instead. Just a random thought. Not even true speculation, I don't know how I feel about this idea. I just want to throw it out there and see how it fares in the light of day.

"Really, you can divide spren into two general groups. Those that respond to emotions and those that respond to forces like fire or wind pressure." -Shallan, immediately confirmed by Jasnah. Granted, in-universe they are discussing theories that are unproven, so this is hardly concrete information. If so, however... are lies considered emotions, or forces of nature?

A la Jasnah's glowing description of her cousin, you have updated your dating profile to claim that you are "handsome and well-acquainted with amiable discourse."

I have a brand-new crazy theory. Elhokar has an Honorblade. It is Shallash's Blade. Cryptics are associated with her Order. Holding an Honorblade grants you the power to see the spren associated with that order. Wild, baseless speculation. I will be as shocked, if not more shocked, than anyone if it's proven true.

It's a theory. I think it's more speculative than you give it credit for, but a theory anyway. This is the part I'm going to contend. All ten polestones are used in Soulcasting to create the ten essenses. Jasnah has a smokestone because she's going to turn the rock into smoke. She uses zircon to turn wine into a crystal and ruby to turn a man into fire. She and Shallan both use garnets to craft blood. Emeralds are the most expensive gem expressly because they can be used to Soulcast food. Different gems Soulcast different things, whether you're a Surgebinder or using a fabrial.

See you there! I enjoy making costumes so I'm trying to decide what, if anything, to do for this one. Last time I just made Seons for myself and my buddies.