Oudeis

It seems I was mistaken, thank you for the attribution.

So he's a bit of a fixer-upper, so he's got a few flaws. Like his past with the bridgemen, His thing with the Windspren that's a little outside of nature's laws... Is it the way that he runs scared? Or that he's socially impaired? Or that he trains all of his buddies in the pits? Are you holding back your fondness Due to his unmanly bondness, Or the way he covers up that he can heal from hits! ... So she's a bit of a fixer-upper, it's a minor thing. This, quote, enagement is a casual arrangement. And by the way, I don't see no ring. So she's a bit of a fixer-upper, her brain's a bit betwixt! Get the fiance out of the way, and the whole thing will be fixed! renarin>"Hey!" lopen's solo> We're not saying you can change him, It's not like you've got that Surge. We're only saying love is more than a fundamental urge! And yeah, the literal rest of the song is totally perfect as-is.

Ah... yes, I failed to do my research and rather stepped on your toes there. You have my apologies, and an upvote.

Southern Scadrians are un-genetically-modified Classic Scadrians. Classic Scadrians performed hemalurgy. ((I have to run out the door, but I will edit this OP with links to attribution when I return)). Does this not mean that they likely still perform hemalurgy? Doesn't that mean that Ruin has spent all this time whispering to them and directing the course of their lives? Just a thought I had. Please, speculate, or perhaps even provide WoB telling me I'm wrong.

There were three books in the Mistborn trilogy, and WoB has confirmed that they were each to focus on a different one of the Metallic Arts. There are ten books in the Stormlight Archive, and it's understood each will be about a different Order of the Knights Radiant. Yet I wonder... there's a WoB out there stating that there are either 10 ways to access magic on Roshar... or 30, depending on how you look. It simply makes me wonder. Next time I re-read the books, I'm going to see if perhaps Way of Kings shows not just Kaladin, but perhaps two other versions of people somehow accessing the same power-set. Szeth immediately springs to mind; perhaps he means that either a spren, or an Honorblade, can access those two surges? Maybe there's a third way? Maybe that's what a Squire is? I don't know. One obvious guess is, there's a way for Odium, Honor, and Cultivation to access the Surges, the same way Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy all make use of the sixteen (yes I know that's a simplified number) metals. If so... random speculation, but maybe an Honorblade is Honor's way, the nahel bond is Cultivation's way, and... I don't know, the Voidforms of the listeners might be Odium's way? I have no answers, I just wonder if it might be an interesting question to ask.

My personal interpretation is different from yours. Jasnah's discussion of spren leads me to the impression that they are primarily, perhaps exclusively, Cognitive beings. What do you mean by "the Investiture"? What Investiture do they have? I think it is a stretch to assume that they are multi-Realmatic entities, let alone to take it as evidence that any other entity is either multi-Realmatic, or similar to spren.

But surely Breaths look far more Spiritual in nature than Cognitive? When you Awaken something, it's the Command that provides the cognitive aspect of the Investiture; the Breath seems to mainly provide the power. And when Vivenna's viewpoint first walks us through the process of Awakening, she likens it to her hair, where she has been concentrating too hard; she realizes she needs to relax and let her instincts and subconscious do the Awakening on its own. It sounds like acting too Cognitive is actually bad for Awakening. I realize we know more about the cognitive realm than we do about the spiritual one, but I feel like I see people on this site assuming anything "metanatural" has to be of the Cognitive Realm. Some of this stuff is going to end up being very Spiritual.

I'm not certain I agree with your idea on Awakened Objects and Spren, but there's already another thread on this topic on the Cosmere Theories forum, so if I feel like responding I will do so there. The question remains, how did Nightblood tell the fisherman how far off his net was? We know Nightblood cannot see, himself, and the fisherman had no way to know himself where he was in relation to Nightblood (if he did, he prolly wouldn't have had to be told.) So, if Nightblood can only read minds, and the only "mind" nearby didn't know, how did Nightblood know? The only answer I can come up with, and it feels like a bit of a cop-out to me, is, the net disturbed some fish, and Nightblood used his life-sense to determine in what direction and distance from him fish suddenly started moving in an agitated fashion, and extrapolated. Though if memory serves, Nightblood specifically says, "to your right." How could he know which way the man was facing? We get a very good idea of how Lifesense works from Vivenna's exploration of it, and at no point does she suggest she can determine things about people such as, "which way they are facing." Throwing back to an earlier topic, I've thought about it and I'm more convinced now that a Seeker could give his Awakened object Bronzedar. A Seeker senses by drawing Investiture; the form this Investiture takes is shaped by the metal. Breath might also be other things, but it's also clearly a way to tap Investiture, and the Command would shape that power exactly the way the metal would. We've already seen that you can prolly grant mundane senses to Awakened objects, and they were able to grant extraordinary senses like Lifesense and telepathy in certain cases. Also, I'm certain there's a WoB out there mentioning that Scadrial is a comparatively low-Investiture shardworld, so it prolly wouldn't even take that much power. With a skilled Awakener who has experienced Bronzedar himself able to keep the mental command firm and clear, I don't see any reason why Breath couldn't power Bronzedar.

But surely when a commodity is so important, relatively rare and expensive, people keep track? "Hey, I just purchased 35 Breaths from you, but it's only registering as 33." In large trends, the strong/weak Breaths would prolly even out to the point of not being noticed, but in many specific instances it would be quite noticeable. Not to mention, the idea that a Breath can be "strong" or "weak" is clearly well-known, as the Heightened doctor proclaims Siri to have a strong Breath, and Vivenna notices almost immediately upon reaching the first Heightening that some Breaths are stronger than others. If such a fact were clearly so utterly obvious, when exactly did the false conventional wisdom begin that all Breaths were totally equal? If it's so ostensibly not the case, who exactly started that rumor, for what purpose, and how did they trick an entire population into believing it so thoroughly despite obvious and constant reminders that it's false?

Thank you. That's an interesting point I had missed when I read the book. Fascinating that aluminum is immune to Investiture on one Shardworld, yet can only be made by Investiture on another. How do you think people on Roshar first discovered aluminum? You must know what it is you're turning something into in order to Soulcast it, yes? So if aluminum didn't exist before the first time someone Soulcast it, how did that person Soulcast it? Did a worldhopper bring the first aluminum, or perhaps a worldhopper used a Soulcaster to make something she knew about from her own world?

Do you have attribution for this?

This is what i suspect, as well, except for one discrepency i cannot explain. The first heightening grants perfect aura recognition, and Viv notes that two priests each possess exactly 50 Breaths. (I will try to post chapter/page number/quote when i get to a desktop, it is when she first attends the Court of Gods.) If it were the case that you need only 45 'strong' Breaths to equal 55 'weak' Breaths, with how easy that is to deduce, wouldnt everyone know it by now? The basic idea still seems to have a lot of merit, so hopefully there is a way to explain this one discrepancy.

Update as i read. Vasher is talking to Nightblood, and mentions that the sword cannot see the sunset. Nightblood agrees, but says he can feel Vasher seeing it. This just confuses me. Discuss.

Z-Man: to make sure i understand, your belief on senses, specifically, agrees with the consensus of the group, i.e., Breath simply grants the senses and bypasses the need for the mechanism (eyes) the way it grants locomotion while bypassing the need for the mechanism (muscles). Is my interpretation of your position correct? Weiry: surely you will concede that the quote does not say 'Awakend objects, like Nightblood.' It says, 'objects with almost sentient behavior.' A rope that will 'hold when thrown' is no more sentient than a doorknob that will unlatch when twisted. In fact, the definition Vasher gives to explain the difference between Nightblood and typical Awakened objects is that he is sentient, and they are not. I think we would need to find a different quote to provide any sort of link between type III entities and spren. Brick, what had you meant when you said that 'we already know there are a lot of parellels between Awakened Objects and other transformative cognitive entities'?

I have looked through binoculars, and i have looked through a microscope. Does that mean i could give an Awakened entity telescopic vision? Microscopic vision? Would a tineye be able to Awaken an entity with beyond-human hearing? Could a Seeker make a straw doll with bronzedar? Could a Windrunner Awaken an entity able to draw in Stormlight and Lash? Aaaand.... speculate!

Please, how do we know that there are a lot of parellels between Awakened objects and Transformative Cognitive Entities? Nightblood's capacity to sense things is also very interesting and, you're right, important. Think especially of when he was thrown in the bay. He knew there was a fisherman nearby. He could tell how far away the net was, and in what direction. That far underwater, would normal sight have been able to give him this information? I know he has limited ability to read minds, but the fisherman didn't know where Nightblood was, so that information wasn't useful. If memory serves, it was night. There's no way he 'saw' the net from where he was, that deep in the water. Hearing, smell, and taste are also out. I guess maybe he has a physical sensation of touch? Except doesn't he at one point claim that he likes the sun, and Vasher tells him he can neither feel nor see the sun? "How does Nightblood perceive the world" has become an important aspect of my question. Thank you, Brick!

From your response, it seems that you mainly feel that the Breath grants the Awakened entity one or more of the mundane senses, bypassing the typical necessary mechanisms the way it already bypasses the need for actual muscles when it grants strength. Am I correct in my interpretation? I have to say... I wish it were not so, but I have to agree with you. This solution seems the simplest and most elegant, and the most in keeping with the aspects of Awakening we've already seen. It's too bad, because Awakened objects having a unique spiritual sense would be far more interesting. I have several additional speculative questions. They are mostly me just babbling, and I certainly don't mean to "put you on the spot" or assume that you know the answers. In the past I've come across as saying, "well answer these questions or else I'm not accepting your response," which could not be farther from what I intend. Basically, you seem smart and speculative, and I would very much like to brainstorm with you (or with anyone else who wants to jump in) if you don't mind rampant speculation. Can you grant enhanced senses? Even in glasses, my vision isn't the best, but I've had better vision earlier in life. Could I grant an Awakened entity vision as good as I've ever had? It's not hard for me to imagine what it would be like to be able to read a sign that's very far away, even though my vision was never that good. Could I give my entity this ability? Could I give it a stronger, more discriminating sense of smell than my own? Many blind people are less than completely blind. Even if they can't distinguish well enough to walk unaided, could they still give an Awakened entity the ability to see at least far enough to distinguish "physical object" from "empty air" at a range of seven feet or so? Could a marine biologist who really, really understands electroreception grant it to a doll in the shape of a hammerhead shark? I do have one last theory to support the idea of Awakened entities with their own special senses... I'm in the middle of a re-read and I'm not up to the scene yet, but at one point Vasher asks a bunch of little dolls to find a secret tunnel. What sense do they use? Do they simply see, closer to the ground, the outline of the door? Does he give them a sense of touch and they can 'feel' the difference between solid ground and hollow? Or, do they have a unique sense which allows them to locate things like secret doors? I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic on more fun "conclusion" Commands. It feels very Sanderson to have a simple mechanic in an arcanum that we all believe we understand, but turns out to be far more complex than we at first realized. I realize that's a tenuous citation to hang my hopes on, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Until then, I'm going to dream. If it is possible, I wonder what other sort of things you can do with "conclusion" commands...

Terisen: Your point is well-made, but largely tangential to my initial question. Since the straw man did, in fact, fetch the keys, obviously whatever it did worked, and the Command was successful. My question is this. How did it see any of this? Or feel it, or perceive it by any means? The straw man had no eyes, it had no skin or nervous system. It's fine to say, Vasher gave it a complex enough mental command for it to deduce the best way to find and retrieve the keys, but how did it perceive the room, and the keys? Lifesense would prolly not have let it find the keys. Did it see without eyes? Did it touch every object in the room, despite lacking nerves, until it found something key-shaped? Is an Awakened object's perception at all similar to any of the five typical senses of a human? Does it possess magnetosense, or electroreception? Could a blind Awakener make a seeing-eye doll? "Sit on my shoulder and tap me when I'm about to bump into something." "Lead me to the market." Can you Awaken a piece of rope to "point north"? Could it sense heat? However an Awakened object "sees" a person, can it tell the difference between individual people? "Let no one through but my brother Harry." Can it tell that a person intends harm? "Grab people who want to hurt me." What sense does it use to see people, and how much information does this sense provide? Does the Breath simply mimic typical sight without the need for ocular mechanisms? Does your mental command decide which senses the object gets? Can you give it a sense you yourself do not possess? Can you give it a sense you used to possess, but do not anymore? I am extremely near-sighted. If I took off my glasses, could I Command an object to see for me, and would it see as clearly as me-with-glasses, or me-at-this-moment? Is it possible for me, as a human, to understand the concept of electroreception well enough to imagine my creation having it, or does it have to be something I've at least experienced ever myself? If I Awaken a doll, and give it sight, can it go to a room, see things, and convey this knowledge back to me? Are there perhaps other Commands to end an Awakening besides, "Your Breath to Mine"? Could you say, "Your Breath to mine, your memories become mine," and then you'd see what it had seen?

Vasher himself never saw the keys, or if he did they were on the man's belt when he left the room. Vasher had absolutely no way to know, apart from "through that door," where in the room the man was, or if he'd taken the keys off his belt and put them on a hook, or if they fell out when he died. He had no way to know what the room looked like, or if it was down a corridor rather than simply the other side of the wall. And still, the straw man didn't seem to have any problem. My initial conclusion is that the straw man must have SOME capacity to perceive the world in order to accomplish the Command, though I'm eager to hear any other alternate theories. However, it's clear that Vasher could not have imagined the route the doll would have to take in order to Fetch the keys, so something else must be the explanation. I realize that we know far more about the Cognitive Realm than the Spiritual one, so it's a natural tendency to imagine that one, instead. Nevertheless, it's my personal belief that Breath is largely Spiritual, so the Spiritual Realm seems more likely to be how it perceives. I realize we don't know what spiritwebs looks like, least of all do we know what spiritwebs look like to other spiritwebs, but presumably since the physical reality of keys can be recognized as keys, and, as you say, the cognitive reality of keys can be recognized as keys, I feel it's no great stretch to stipulate that the spiritual reality of keys can be recognized as keys just as easily, under ordinary circumstances.

The very first Command we see in the novel is, "Fetch Keys." Then, the straw men went into a room filled with objects many many times its own height, and came back in relatively short order with keys. How did it know where keys were? Could it see? From where? Only the "face" area? How does this sense work? Would it work in the dark? Through walls? Could it be blocked? Could it be fooled by fake keys? How would it perceive a Lightweaving? Or is it a sense unlike sight? Does the primarily-Spiritual Breath see in the Spiritual Realm and look for the spiritweb of "keys"? Does anyone know of a part of the text, or annotations, or a WoB, on this subject? Any alternate theories out there?

Does burning lerasium while hemalurgically spiked affect you in any way other than typical? How would it affect a survivor of hemalurgic theft?

What is the easiest thing you could do to a corpse on Nalthis to ensure it could not be Awakened as a Lifeless? How would it have affected Kelsier's spiritual existence in the second and third books if his body had become a Lifeless?

...hence why I said, "if he was Nalthian." I meant to imply, if he were a natural-born Nalthian with at least one Endowed Breath.

If Kelsier had been Nalthian and died the way he had on Nalthis, would he have Returned? Regardless, did he see the future the way Llarimar claims all dead people do?

If you read the Final Empire epigraphs there is mention of a man named Fedik. I believe he was the victim of hemalurgic theft and survived. I asked Mr. Sanderson but I was RAFOed.