Oudeis

I had actually wondered if they were spiked. They do work for the Set, who we all suspect has their hand in hemalurgy. With the knowledge gained from Bleeder, they could know perfectly well how to do it. And they don't strike me as people who would hesitate to do something like that.

I cannot be the only person who read the title a la "SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!"

I ... don't understand what you're saying here? Or what I'm supposed to clarify. Sorry? Could you rephrase? Sorry for the late response, I left 17s entirely until I had finished the new book. That quote was from 2012, before we knew live sprenblades were a thing, or had ever seen one. On balance, I'm gonna say since one of those two things were known at the time and the other was at best speculated, there's not really wiggle-room; the quote clearly meant dead Blades.

You're still ignoring the first time he picked up a staff. Zero training, not a moment's instruction, at best he saw some kids who knew nothing hit each other with sticks... and he fights. Perfectly. Select a tactically sound target, aim at something moving, strike with perfect force. His literal first hit. That's not something from Gravitation (which... I have no idea how you think Gravitation would help him in training) and his Stormlight could grant might, but not skill or training. Even when he desribes training, he does talk about a few things Stormlight can help with... he practices hours a day, he presumably recovers faster from injuries when he makes mistakes, and the like. However, he talks about many things no Stormlight or "proto-Surgebinding" could account for. Consistently, people try to teach him a form, only to have him execute it perfectly the first time, as though he already knew it. Advanced moves he does correctly without instruction. Again and again, over and over. This is simply fundamentally impossible for either normal Stormlight, or for a "natural". A natural would have a steep learning curve and would pick things up quickly... but would still have to be taught something before knowing how to do it, or at least try out a few things and come up with it on his own. There's no such thing as a natural born pre-trained.

Why do we think there will be multiple Windrunners?

Kay... this is a change from you saying 5% earlier. I'm still unsure of the numbers. She has to have enough extra power that the Hero of Ages would round it to "double", and enough to pierce a coppercloud which no seeker, however powerful, can do to a smoker, however weak. It is taken as axiomatic that it's not a matter of power, that copperclouds are simply fundamentally immune. Yet on the other hand, this spike has been out of a body, losing power, for a decade. Remember, Vin is 16, and until she meets Kelsier leaves the earring out more often than she has it in. The Inquisitors were afraid of the power that could be lost in seconds. How could the power loss be so low when the earring is out of a body for a decade?

...but, the phrase Shadow of Self is a real thing in this series, and it definitely does not refer to what you're referencing here. It's not like this is the only possible way to talk about a blank-slate Kandra. It would be really weird to use a phrase he'd used to mean one specific thing, and then have it vaguely reference in an odd way a bizarre metacognitive sorta concept.

1. I'm sorry... Are the kandra manipulating everyone? We see them direct the course of Wax, and the only other manipulation we see is when they come out in force to directly counteract Bleeder. What evidence do you have of large-scale manipulation which warrants her reaction? I guess you can assume it... but there's no reason to, just so you can then assume everyone who should, logically, know what her mental state is like is also wrong. 2. Why couldn't he? If he could do it once, he can do it again. What has changed since his Ascension that prevents him from using... literally any power at all? At the very least, we know he could control TenSoon and have him just physically write a book. (And now I see you address this... but then sorta ignore it? You admit that it entirely invalidates your first point, but you just go forward, anyway...) And what does he say that implies he would just kill every murderer, right then and there, if he could? At the end, he knows whether or not the Nobles are corrupt. All he'd have to do would be to let MeLaan continue impersonating Innate and point the finger. Or, alternatively, tell Marasi and Aradel, these Nobles are good, these are bad, only prosecute the bad ones. And he won't even do that. What gives you the impression that he wishes he could fry them with lightning? 3. You admit we don't know... but you nevertheless insist that it must be one way, just to prove your point that Paalm isn't insane. Yes, Harmony has manipulated events to draw her to a place where she can do good. Yet, he has to ask Wax to stop being mean to her, because apparently that's enough of a wrench to throw off his plans. If God's manipulation is so subtle that one guy being mean to her can change it all, I am not going to accept that we're into "elimination of free will" levels here. Did Breeze eliminate Spook's free will when he asked him to get some wine? Are grocery stores controlling your mind by doing studies to see how people shop and putting fresh produce to the right of the entrance? Is it logical, or sane, to decide that we need to burn every grocery store to the ground as the only rational way to free us from this tyranny? 4. This... is a partially valid point. But you're arguing both sides of the debate. For one point, you're saying Preservation is doing too much, that his control of humanity warrants a rational person concluding he's a tyrant who needs to be overthrown, and that stabbing a priest in the eyes will do this somehow. Then in your next point, you suggest Divine death squads killing everyone Harmony doesn't like. Harmony's goal is the most choices for the most people. This, unfortunately, means giving people the choice to make bad decisions. Humans must have human justice. If Harmony handled all justice, humans wouldn't even bother with a government. They'd just trust that if someone was about to kill someone else, Harmony would kill the murderer moments before the knife fell. That's the problem he ran into with Elendel; his intent to keep the Originators from starving has made them so comfortable they just get along, not pushing boundaries. He can't just do everything. He has to let humans handle human problems, with gentle nudges to try to reduce suffering. He did not "control the course of [Wax's] life". Lessie was sent, at first, as a bodyguard. You saw Wax in the prologue; without Lessie he prolly wouldn't have survived. Was Harmony being "manipulative" by trying to keep Wax from dying? Wax made most of his own decisions. He happened to be someone useful to Harmony, and he accepted the Path of his own will. He wants to be useful. He wants to help people. Harmony did not make him someone who wanted to protect people, he's just giving Wax the opportunity to actually help people. Marasi wants to use her knowledge and skills to better the city; it is not "controlling her life" that Harmony adjusted things to put her in the position to do so. If anything, he's granting their wishes. Working with them, though admittedly in an assymetric partnership. Also, look at Wayne. John Deadfinger would have killed him. Wax said he wishes he could give everyone a second chance. Should Harmony just strike everyone in the Set dead? What if they're not really that bad? What if they can be rehabilitiated? What about that one young Vanisher who got caught up in something? Wayne gave him advice and saved his life. Not everyone would actually change... but should God simply decide, you're worth saving, you're not?

One thing I don't buy about Bloody Tan being part of the plan to send Wax back to Elendel... all the innocent bodies. I guess that was all just gonna happen anyway, and Harmony just manipulated the ending to kill Lessie and send him back to Elendel. ...except that that's not what happened, and not what a rational person would understand was happening. Harmony is upset at technological advancement; he wishes people were further along. Yet, he's not forcing them along. He could leave notes for inventors, drop a few Updated Words of Founding. He could simply turn Elendel into a desolate wasteland and FORCE people to learn how to irrigate. Yes, they are stagnated, and yes, that is because of a mistake he made, but it's flagrantly not true that he's "orchestrating their advancement," or "manipulating them all." Yes, he manipulates Wax; not the world. As MeLaan explains to Marasi at the end, when you're God, even your inaction is involvement. If someone falls off a cliff, catches themselves but can't pull themselves back up, and you just stand there and watch until the person's arms give out and they fall, can you later say you didn't affect the outcome because you didn't do anything? Harmony could control everything like a giant puzzle. He could also turn his back, divest himself of Scadrial and flee. He can stay, manipulating some things, letting others run their course. How much does he do? What does he leave be? If he knows a man is destined to accidentally be the cause of millions, does he kill that man? What of his daughter? Where is the line? What's right, what's wrong? No rational person could look at Harmony, what his intentions are and what actions he has taken, and decide rationally that it's in the best interests of the people of Elendel that they burn their city and die by the hundreds to do something that will not, ultimately, change anything. They will be no more or less "manipulated" by Harmony. He didn't make Elendel; he just gave them the plans, and they decided to make it themselves. He didn't submit blueprints for Tekiel Tower. He didn't settle Covingtar. Look at his actions regarding Wax. He sent Paalm; her romance with Wax was not his intention. Wouldn't it have been better if he had manipulated them? If he saw their growing fondness, "killed" her before they fell in love, and sent another kandra as a man? Instead, Harmony left them to their own devices... and as a result, Paalm grew to love him so much, she couldn't let him go to do what needed to be done. What if Harmony hadn't interfered, hadn't pressured her to fake her death and send Wax to Elendel? Dozens, if not hundreds, would have died at the Ostlin/Yomen wedding. Steris would have been kidnapped; the Vanishers, and the Set, would not have been stopped. More women would have been kidnapped. We don't even know their plans, yet, but we know Wax opposes them. All that... weighed against one happy couple. She's not rationally looking at the big picture and coming to the logical conclusion that Harmony is in total control of everyone and everything, and that drastic measures are required to change this. She's a woman who was hurt terribly, has personally decided her pain was too high a price to pay to save the lives of hundreds of people, and has decided to burn a city to... accomplish nothing. Elendel's destruction would not have changed, in any way, the level to which Harmony is interfering with the world. What is it he's doing now that would be different after Elendel burned? Who is he manipulating that he'd stop manipulating? Technological stagnation isn't something he's upholding; quite the opposite, it frustrates him. He's just not willing to kill off hundreds of Scadrians just so the survivors can have radios. That is why Paalm is insane. Her methods are calculating and brilliant, but they will not accomplish her stated goal, which is not itself a rational goal. She's trying to find a cure for pancakes. She cray.

Also, nicroburst Soothing would not be the relatively subtle thing it was. Everyone would have felt the soul-deep numbness Straff Venture was traumatized by, not a general quieting of most emotions. Also, wouldn't she have taken control of MeLaan? Perhaps she's got the secret to the other kind of compounding, and was simply a powerful (but not out-of-control powerful) Soother thereby.

That seems unlikely... I know that an allomancer can burn any metal from any planet, implying that there's nothing unique about most metals on Scadrial, it's something found in the spiritweb of every metal, everywhere, that allows it to be used. Still, as the opposite art, perhaps hemalurgy is different.

How would that help? If the problem is just making more electricity at once, wouldn't building a second generator be cheaper than having bendalloy burn constantly? A generator in a speed-bubble will burn through fuel at a rate proportional to the amount of electricity you're getting.

But here's the thing... after a thousand years, during which we knew people were getting weaker every generation, and some lines are enormously powerful while others haven't thrown up an allomancer in generations, surely there's a greater discrepancy than 5% between the strongest and weakest Seekers already? I know the argument is, "But 100% of Seekers who realized they could pierce copperclouds never told anyone" and I don't buy it. Because they would tell their family, their House. A Tekiel (they're an allomantically powerful line) Seeker who realized he could pierce copperclouds... well, that would be an enormous advantage to their House, so he'd tell them, and become more valuable. Maybe they understand why, and maybe they don't, but regardless, they know it can happen. But there's a flipside. They now know copperclouds aren't inviolate. So the next time they send a bunch of allomancers on a mission with a Smoker, they're going to warn them, hey, be careful, we know it's theoretically possible for the cloud to be pierced. Still keep your allomancy to a minimum. And then, someone smart observing them would be able to tell, hey wait, they're acting odd. Why aren't they just burning constantly? They've got a Smoker. Something's up with this... Would they figure out the right answer? Sometimes, sometimes not. But every time someone does, that's another House that's now in on the secret. Before too long, it's something just everyone knows. The only other scenario is that every Seeker (or Mistborn) who realizes what he can do decides to tell absolutely no one, not get any advantage from their own power, for... reaons, I guess? And that sounds like absolutely no Noble we've met. They all want power, prestige, to be seen as the greatest. If nothing else, when he alerts someone, "A Mistborn is coming!" he'd have to explain how on earth he was able to Seek someone burning copper. Vin has to be so powerful in bronze, she's well beyond the range any Seeker has been over any Coppercloud. Also, remember, she's never run into a Smoker strong enough to block her, so she's that much more powerful than the most powerful Smoker there is. Beyond which, from an epigraph in Hero of Ages, she's described as being double the strength of normal Seekers. While I doubt this was meant with mathematical exactitude, 105% is certainly not something anyone would reasonably describe as "double".

I believe not? I'll try to find the WoB but I think plants and animals cannot be used to charge spikes.

Kandra cannot give themselves "stronger bones" because the bones are what they have to get from others. They could make True Bodies out of granite. You seem to be suggesting that you think the Howlers are kandra? I'm not certain what it is you're saying here. TenSoon did smell them... and he said they smell like people. We're given every reason to assume that they are more hemalurgic constructs, so it's unlikely they are from another world. It remains, however, possible. They didn't strike me as 'instructions' type of minions. They had no calculation or tactics, they just charged and attacked. I'm not sure I buy that they could be given as abstract an instruction as, "Wait really, really far away, and when he leaves this chamber, which you have no way of sensing, mob him."

I have not seen this discussed anywhere... What are we gonna call the new hemalurgic thing? Howlers? Some two-syllable word starting with a K and one repeated vowel? Krintins? They lost a ton of humanity, very fast. All from one spike. What attribute do you think it stored? They seemed pretty strong; might? And odd they should specifically get thickened skulls. We know Bleeder was nowhere near at the time, and Wax implies they were sent to delay him again; who did that? Members of the Set? Why did Harmony not see them, why did TenSoon not smell them? How did they know when to let the Howlers loose? Who were they? Just random people? Did she just take twenty random strangers off the street and kill half of them to power transformation in the other half? Are there a bunch of missing people unaccounted for of which we are unaware? Was this the only new construct she had? Did she have another minion who set the Howlers loose? How does turning people into mindless automatons jive with her stated decision to see people free or dead? This is expressly neither.

You even admit, that's your impression. In your OP, you say that's it's clear and obvious that there were two spikes. I personally think the balance of evidence is that there was only one spike, but it is absolutely not obvious from the book that there were two. Remember, we're told three times that kandra cannot get a spike for allomancy or feruchemy. It's supposed to be impossible. So there's no 'spike they were expecting' for steel allomancy. The one spike is of an unknown metal, with unknown properties, and she exhibited a power she should not have had access to. Insanity. So... you're saying someone who kidnaps people and eats them is sane, then? "In a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction." Bleeder is trying to incite a riot and cause countless deaths because she believes Harmony is directly controlling all Scadrians and she needs to make the city burn to free them. No part of your definition precludes "cold, methodical, logical and calculating." You can be all those things and still lack the ability to perceive the world, or to interact with people. Serial killers are often very intelligent. They are also insane. There's no consistency in your argument. The definition you provide does nothing to counter my argument or support yours. She's not insane just because she kills people. She's insane because her goals are insane. She thinks that if people get angry enough, they will break free of supernatural control from Harmony. She's decided that killing a good chunk of the population is in their own best interests, and that she's got the right to judge, and to execute. She is insane.

I only just got back to the forum after reading, and there's a lot to sift through; can you perhaps link me to this? I haven't found it yet. That was... not what I was thinking. In point of what, what I was thinking was, I don't personally think that's right; the way they speak of it makes it clear, I think, that it is only one spike, and that the polkadot metal is granting her steel allomancy. And it is DEFINITELY not clear from the book that there are definitely two spikes. Paalm did not keep her sanity; Wax is pretty clear about this. Her goals are insane, but her methods are calculating. Just because she's not random and wearing underwear on her head doesn't mean she's sane. Many serial killers are cold, methodical, logical, and calculating, and not less insane.

With respect, I disagree with this statement. In fact, I do more than disagree with it. I propose that you are saying this based on your personal impression of what someone "talented" as a fighter could accomplish naturally. I have spoken with many people who have studied martial arts, most of them black belts. I have described to them the feats laid at Kaladin's feet. I have gotten back unanimous consent. No way that he acts could be described as an actual 'natural' at fighting. I've gotten into this in detail in many places. You can either trust my research, or not. I'm not going to list the entire survey again. Suffice to say, yes, there is of course such a thing as someone being a natural fighter, or a natural surgeon, or a natural pianist, or a natural juggler. Specifically what Kaladin does, however, is NOT what a 'natural fighter' would present as. What he does is literally impossible. The analogy is, someone naturally good at piano might sit at one, never having sat at one before, having only ever heard an amatuer play but heard that people can bring great music out of it, and after a few minutes of tooling around and figuring out which key is which note, manage to knock out a simple, beautiful melody of their own composition, or repeat the tune of a song they know with relatively few mistakes. What Kaladin did would be the equivalent of someone sitting at a piano and playing the accompaniement to Voi Che Sapete from La Nozze di Figaro when he's never heard it before. It's not that the song is difficult, it's that he couldn't be producing a song he's never heard. It's not a matter of being a natural or just being really really good; there are some things you must learn, and cannot simply be born knowing.

I mean... you're basing your idea on speculation and 'what must have happened', as opposed to what TenSoon and MeLaan expressly tell us in the books. While independently your theory would be compelling, I'm going to assume in this case that TenSoon and MeLaan are right.

Noooooooot... exactly. You're talking about the third book, when he's actually found himself. The entire second book was him not having someone to be. "OreSuer" and Vin have a talk about this. She forces him into a body with no personality, and he feels exposed; for the first time, he has no one to be but himself. All the personality we see of him in the third book was basically born for the first time in the second.

While I agree with you, I see the whole gasoline thing as fairly ancillary to anything relevant to the plot. This is one of the cases where I could see "lengthy explanations about what I technically meant" or even "make up a word and not explain it" as doing more to detract and distract than advance the story; like a pun that wouldn't make sense in context, I see something like this as "the story is better served if we just use a word that's inaccurate but will give you the right sort of idea." Basically, under most circumstances I try to use it as a last resort. In a case like this, I think it was a valid narrative tool.

I was lucky enough to attend a shockingly sparsely attended and quick event once, and while he did have somewhere to go so we didn't just recline in leather chairs sipping brandy, he did hang out with us for a bit. We were all a little too shy to grill him on details, but he did answer additional questions for us. Well, he RAFO'd most of them, but kind-of answered.

Don't forget the Davars; Taravangian wondered if Shallan learned Surgebinding from her brother, so he at least suspects one of them could be a Radiant. And Kaladin's family; Tien clearly exhibited Lightweaver tendencies before he died. When Shallan does her trick to provide 'spiritual sustenance' to Kaladin when he's feeling blue, he expressly comments that it feels exactly like what Tien used to do.

Is he? How many has he seen, besides the pupae on the Plains which are apparently very different? We know they bond to spren and have huge gemhearts inside, so 'glowing' actually made me assume this was a chasmfiend. Ark: I didn't mean to be argumentative; I was simply confused. You used two words that seem like perfect words to describe a chasmfiend, and presented them as though they suggested it wasn't a chasmfiend. I was simply confused. I believe it was meant to be subtle, something we look at later after we've discovered the answer and thought, "Hey wow, I should have seen that!" But that's just me. I'm not positive they're chasmfiends, but at the moment they seem the most likely suspect. New information might change that.