SwordNimiForPresident

I was considering Adonalsium's name today and it occurred to me that it shares its suffix with all of the god metals (Lerasium, Atium, Rayseium). This made me wonder if possibly Adonalsium is the name of a metal who's namesake was the precursor to the Shards. Thinking of it brought a few more things to my attention. Adonalsium is often said to have been "shattered". Now I always assumed that this was a reference to the fact that the power was broken into pieces, but now that I'm thinking of it as a metal, it might have been literal. Even the fact that the pieces of Adonalsium are called Shards hints at it being a metal, as a shattered metal object would be broken into shards. My theory then is this: Adonalsium is the name of a metal that was a manifestation of the power of a being known as Ado, Adonal, Adona or Adonai. The Shattering was achieved by figuring out how to break Adonalsium down into smaller components resulting in the aforementioned entities death, and the creation of the Shards, which were literal shards of the metal. A few interesting points about the names that I've posited, Adoda in Alethi means "light" which ,as we have seen, is a pretty common way to refer to Investiture (Stormlight, Lifelight, Voidlight, etc.). Another interesting point which I saw on the coppermind is that Adonai is apparently a Hebrew name for God, and was possibly an inspiration for Adonalsium's name. Another possibility that I considered is that Adonalsium might literally be "Light metal", and there is no entity associated with it. It's a fresh idea to me, so it's entirely possible that there's a WoB floating around out there that totally eviscerates it, but I thought it was interesting enough to share. Also, sorry if this theory already exists, I didn't see it in my admittedly brief search of the forums. edit: grammar

If by “started it” you mean that I disagreed with you and ultimately expressed dissatisfaction with the quality of our conversation you are correct. I do not, however, recall insulting you.

It’s not an insult, it is a criticism. You calling me a “dull child” on the other hand is most assuredly an insult. One commonly seen on the Internet.

This would almost be insulting if your grammar and vocabulary weren’t so abysmal. I’m not going to argue the meaning of words with someone that can’t use them coherently.

You can assume anything you want. You clearly don’t understand my point and I don’t care enough to explain it to you. This explains nothing. It is a statement that amounts to “no u”. It was a primary point that you made in a previous post. I don’t care enough to go find it to quote. Preservation and Ruin are two sides of the same coin. Not Cultivation and Ruin. They are differing degrees of the same concept, change. Also somehow you’re now agreeing with me that Cultivation is about change, while still acting as though I’m incorrect. As a final note, I want add that I have found speaking with you to be odious and you have convinced me that I won’t find interesting and engaging debate here. Good bye.

This whole Cultivation is growth thing is getting tiresome. You could use growth in place of cultivation in some uses, but not in the way you guys keep trying to use it. Here's an example sentence: "an adult human can grow to two meters tall". If you instead say: "an adult human can cultivate to two meters tall". This sentence doesn't make sense. Another example that is more nuanced: "When you cultivate corn, it should grow to knee high by mid summer". You can change the to: "when you grow corn, it should grow to knee high by mid summer". If you instead say: "when you cultivate corn, it should cultivate to knee high by mid summer" it doesn't make sense. When grow is used the first way, it is synonymous with cultivate. When it is used the second way, it is describing cell production for the purpose of increasing the total mass of a living organism as it tries to achieve optimal size for reproduction. Now to address some other points that I've seen made throughout the various topics I've posted in. To address the point that Cultivation is ordered growth rather than ordered change. From Oathbringer, chapter 57 "Passion" Odium speaking to Dalinar - "Cultivation only wants to see transformation. Growth. It can be good or bad, for all she cares." I'll allow that the word growth is in fact used here. However, it seems to me that it is being used in the way that I demonstrated above. It isn't talking about simple biological growth, it is talking about transformative growth as a concept. The type that can be applied to things like education or self betterment just as it can be applied to the care and tending of crops. Change with a purpose or goal. To put it another way, a farmer cultivates or grows crops by changing things about their environment and controlling circumstance to best suit the crops. The crops themselves grow (in a biological sense). Making Cultivation into some kind of plant goddess limits the scope of what is otherwise an Universal concept of "transformation with purpose" (what I referred to earlier as "ordered change"), rather than just chaotic natural processes. At some point somebody was critical of my use of the word "pruning" to describe part of the domain of Cultivation. From Oathbringer, chapter 114 "The Cost" Cultivation speaking to Dalinar - "But I will give you...a pruning. A careful excision to let you grow. The cost will be high." Here we see grow used again, and again, not used in the biological sense. We also see Cultivation pruning something in order to foster the change that she wants to see. This could be compared to a farmer weeding their garden to help promote the growth (biological) of the crops. But it could also be compared to corrective action taken with a poorly behaved child in order to help them grow (socially/intellectually) into a better behaved person. Cultivating something is about making changes to a given system in order to achieve the end result that you want. From Rhythm of War, interlude 2 "Sja-Anat" Sja-Anat's inner monologue - "Did not the humans revere Transformation--the ability of all beings to become someone new, someone better--as a core ideal of their religion?" This seems, at least to me, to be the influence of Cultivation on the human religions of Roshar, and best demonstrates its Intent. Transformation with a purpose.

You're making the same argument that you made in the other thread. The information is there. If you don't understand it, it's not my job to explain it to you. Frankly I don't enjoy engaging with you as you keep looping back around the same thing without adding anything.

Definition of odium 1 : the state or fact of being subjected to hatred and contempt as a result of a despicable act or blameworthy circumstance 2 : hatred and condemnation accompanied by loathing or contempt : detestation 3 : disrepute or infamy attached to something : opprobrium I find cherry picking odious. edit: Have some synonyms as well. synonyms for odium abhorrence antipathy aversion blame blot blur brand censure condemnation detestation disapproval discredit disesteem disfavor disgrace dishonor dislike disrepute enmity execration hate hatred ignominy infamy malice obloquy onus opprobrium rebuke reprobation resentment shame spot stain stigma edit: bolding.

Not growth, got it. I emitted nothing. I also didn't admit anything. I gave a very clear explanation of the various forms of cultivation. I also never implied that cultivation was only pruning, I simply opined that pruning was the most likely piece of cultivation to express itself when combined with hate. Odium is a word. It has a clear meaning. None of those meanings are chaos or hard to control. It's meaning is hate, hatred, loathing, disgust, abhorrence, repugnance, repulsive, detestation, dislike and disapproval. Furthermore, wild growth is effectively the antithesis of cultivation. To say otherwise is basically saying that wild swampland is the same a botanical garden simply because both contain plants. You keep conflating cultivation with plants, but that is only one small part of it. It is what Brandon Sanderson wrote from the point of view of a character who may or may not misunderstand what they are experiencing. An unreliable narrator is a tool that has been used by authors for a long time. Just because a character interprets something a certain way, does not make it law. The character Lift is a good example of this. She lacks the understanding to put things in technical or even accurate terms, so her inner monologue ends up being silly and childish (also enjoyable). Furthermore, Brandon isn't writing a thesis on the Cosmere, he is writing a story. This requires a certain amount of obfuscation and misdirection to keep the readers engaged and on the edge of their seats. Finally, I understand perfectly well what odium and cultivation mean, as demonstrated by the several paragraphs in which I explained them in copious detail. It's safe to say that explaining this any further to you would be a waste of my time, so this will be my last response.

Cultivation is not growth. Growth can be a byproduct of cultivation. I think I already had this conversation with someone else in another thread. You seem to be talking about cultivation in an agricultural sense, but even then, cultivation is about land preparation and control of which plants are allowed to grow. The plants do the growing, the person cultivating them prepares the soil, provides the water, and trims the weeds. There is also the form of cultivation related to self improvement. A person seeking to better themselves is cultivating certain aspects (education, refinement, health, etc.) Then there is the type of cultivation used in lab work. This is essentially the same as the agricultural form, simply done at a smaller scale. By controlling the environment inside the lab cultures you can encourage the growth of certain organisms. Ruin is not selective, it is absolute. It doesn't seek to destroy some things so that others may flourish, it seeks to destroy all things resulting in something new. Cultivation is pruning. It is also encouraging. You remove the qualities you don't want and encourage the qualities you do want in order to arrive at the desired end state. This is true in all senses of the word Cultivation. Again, you only seem to be using cultivation in an agricultural sense (and even there you are conflating it with growth), where it is in fact a word that can be used to describe ordered change in a number of different systems. Cultivation is not growth. Navani does seem to perceive the combination of Lifelight and Stormlight as science. I would argue that science falls squarely into the domain of Invention, but obviously we haven't encountered that Shard yet. I can see how ordered change combined with rules could be perceived as science. It's worth noting that cultivation can be used to describe education as well as self improvement, both of which are science adjacent ideas. I understand that this is how Navani perceives it, however I do not agree that those two concepts combine to create freedom. Freedom is clearly well within the domain of Autonomy, which is in fact a synonym of freedom.

@cometaryorbit I think we are derailing this thread, which is meant to be about the book title. If you want to rebut me I've started a new topic and tagged you in it. edit: added link to topic.

Starting this topic so I don't further derail KoW = ??? @cometaryorbit Cultivation is only growth when used in the laboratory for making cell cultures. In an agricultural sense it is about land preparation. In a more general sense it is about making changes to acquire certain qualities. You can cultivate a field of berries, or you can cultivate and air of refinement. You can also cultivate bacteria in a petri dish. It is fundamentally, ordered change (as opposed to disordered change which would be chaos). i.e. Changing the field so that only berries grow. Changing yourself so you are less crude. Controlling the environment in the petri dish to get the results you want. Odium is hate. While conflict can come from hate, and hate can come from conflict, hate is not conflict. Conflict can be caused by many things, not the least of which is competition for resources. To summarize, ordered change motivated by hate sounds (to me) like: systematic racism, ethnic "cleansing", genocide or purging. Dominion can be tyrannical or benevolent. The Lord Ruler is an excellent example of a tyrant, and I actually think he might have been a viable vessel for Dominion if such a circumstance ever arose that he was able to pick it up. A good example of a benevolent ruler would be the Elantrians prior to the Reod. They were the de facto rulers but provided every necessity that their people could ever need. I actually think Raoden would be a good vessel for both Dominion and Devotion because while he is a self admitted tyrant, everything he did, he did out of love for his people. Already said my Odium bit above. I could concede to something martial in nature like Conquest, though it doesn't feel hateful enough. Maybe Enslavement? But the very worst enslavement practices. Like generational chattel slavery based on ethnic/religious identity (AKA slavery in America before the good guys won). I think Extinction is pretty much already covered by Ruin, and it lacks any element of Dominion. Anarchy is nearly the direct opposite of Dominion. I expect you could get it from combining Autonomy and Whimsy. Dominion is about ownership and Ruin is about entropy as you said. Some synonyms for Consumption are: expend, deplete, exhaust, waste, squander, drain or dissipate. I feel that all of those provide a sufficient element of entropy to satisfy the Ruin aspect. As for the Dominion part. Acquisition of a thing is a precursor of consuming it and acquisition feels very much like it belongs in the realm of Dominion.

That's one way of looking at it. I stand by Hate + Selective Pruning as being Genocide though. Holocaust might be a good name too. edit: I think Dominion + Odium would be Tyranny. Dominion + Ruin might be Consumption? Oof, Dominion + Ruin = Capitalism lol. edit edit: Consumerism might be more accurate..

I must have missed that in the book. Could you point me to where that is stated?

A Kandra that has integrated itself into your entire body, thereby enhancing all of your body functions. If it connected itself to your nervous system you could probably even achieve some sort of hive mind scenario.

Maybe I'm just confused, but isn't that the same instance in which she talks to the Stormfather?

I think all of the other transformations that we have seen happened in the Everstorm didn't they? In that case I would assume that Odium or one of the Unmade was the intermediary. Maybe Bo Ado Mishram given its connection to the singers being forced into dull form.

That WoB is actually a relief. It means Kelsier is pronounced with a British "r" rather than a French one. Kel-see-ay is horifying. Kel-see-eh I can work with. As to the accents, I couldn't care less what version of English they use, but using non primary English speaking accents seems needless. I do think it would be cool if each world in the Cosmere ended up with a different accent in movies. Now I can't stop imagining Raoden speaking with a deep southeastern USA accent. Or Kaladin with a central Canadian accent "I'll prootect doose oo cannoot prootect demselves, eh?"

King of Wrath Lets face it. Todium is going to win and Dalinar is going to become King of the Fused. Odium is Wrath. Dalinar is King. King of Wrath. Many books will be written about the horrors he wrought during the invasion of Scadrial, but none will be as significant as King of Wrath. It will be even more appropriate if Todium decides to take Cultivation for himself rather than shattering it. He would become the composite Shard Genocide. Very relevant to previously mentioned horrors.

I'd say confirmed-ish is to strong. He basically said "that's a cool idea, you should go post that on the 17th Shard and have an interesting discussion about it". That being said, I would say that something at least Anguish adjacent is probably one of the two missing Shards. My personal pairing of the Shards leaves Mercy and Valor without complements. I could see Vengeance or Fear being possibilities, and both are at least tangentially related to anguish.

Hemalurgic SWAT team called the Inquisitors. Public access coppermind. It runs through wires containing a copper strand a nicrosil strand an aluminum strand and a zinc strand. Each strand is continuous and goes back to a central hub. At the hub there are several copper and zinc compounders working in shifts inside of a speed bubble to keep the the nicrosil and zinc charged and the aluminum empty. You can use public storage by filling aluminum and copper, or you can use private storage by just filling copper. The aluminum gets emptied at the hub to keep anyone else from tapping your Identity. Medallion pills. It works like a medallion but it gives you A-nicrosil and F-nicrosil as well as what ever metalminds are needed. Instead of tapping it you burn it. This means you are compounding the storage and getting 10x the effect from the same amount of investiture. It also feels more futuristic to take a pill and gain a bunch of powers than it does to use "enchanted" jewelry. Rioter soulcasting. It's an idea I've been thinking about for a while now. If a Rioter could figure out a way to interact with an objects Cognitive aspect (A-bronze maybe?), they ought to be able to Riot it into thinking its something else. Kandra terminators. Mechanical skeletons powered with the metallic arts, wrapped in Kandra goo. Kandra Symbiotes. Like what Melaan did with Marassi but totally integrated instead of just a patch. Basically Venom from Marvel comics. Kandra doctors. Imagine if your doctor could send a tentacle into your body and eat your cancer/blood clot/infection, or diagnose a disease by tasting you, then produce the antibodies you need to fight it and release them into your blood stream. Kanra meat black market. People are weird, especially rich ones. They would probably pay top dollar to eat some "human" flesh harvested from a Kandra. QAnon intensifies. New metals. What do the other Shard metals do when you burn them? What do they store? I need to know. Social commentary on our own race relations using Koloss. I know its not tech but still.. Tacky tee shirts with dumb slogans that makes jokes about in world characters. "Harmony take the wheel" or "I Survived and all I got was this stupid shirt" or "Wasing the f**k?". Black market Hemalurgy. Metallic arts space flight and FTL. Perpendicularity TSA. Making the magical mundane and tedious. That's all I've got for now.

Fair point. He def doesn't hesitate to self sacrifice if he deems it necessary though. I guess that loops back around to Dalinar v Adolin though. Of the two of them, I would side with Dalinar when it comes to improvisation or using circumstance to your advantage (Like Lan or Vasher).

@Quantus That's a cool WoB. I wonder if Brandon thought about the fact that Demandred was 400 something years old (not counting 3000 years imprisoned) when he fought Lan. It might impact his Vasher v Lan matchup, although Demandred lost due to arrogance which Vasher does not seem to suffer from. I would say Lan's willingness to die in order to win probably gives him a chance against almost anyone. Hard to walk away from a fight with a guy that will take a blade to the chest in order to score a killing blow.

Adolin was floored when he saw Dalinar fight Szeth. @Quantus That WoB basically says Dalinar wouldn't care enough about a blade to have one. It doesn't really say anything about whether he would deserve one. It's basically Brandon saying that Adolin is vain about his skill where Dalinar is so skilled that he doesn't care. I give this to Dalinar 11/10 times.

Just chiming in with my two cents. Kelsier is both the hero we deserve, and the hero we need right now.