KalaDANG

Yeah. It’s just weird. We haven’t seen anything like that with other surgebinding before, and I don’t think that Jasnah withdraws it any faster than Kaladin would. I think what Calderis said is interesting though. Maybe forcing the gemstone to directly power the transformation instead of the surgebinder them self powering it causes the strain that destroys it. It could be that if the surgebinder hasn’t absorbed any stormlight, but still attempts a transformation, the transformation steals from the nearest investiture energy source it finds to power it. Kind of like how Nightblood will feast upon your soul if you try to wield him without investiture.

So in Way of Kings, Jasnah's soulcasting has kind of been confusing me.

So, say hypothetically a Darkeyes was to take up a Shardblade, making their eyes light. If they got married and had kids, would their kids be lighteyed or darkeyed? This is assuming that the Shardbearer's genetics would decide eye color in their children rather than their spouse. The question is though, does the bond with the shardblade effect you genetically that way, allowing you to have lighteyed children rather than darkeyes? I know that you are automatically at least 4th or 3rd dahn or something if you're a shardbearer, and you can marry lighteyes. It just wouldn't make a lot of sense if the children were born darkeyed and unable to hold lands and have the same status. Help?

Hehehehehe okay awesome. I couldn’t really come up with anything that made any sense. I was thinking maybe atomic level investiture collisions generating light but not using up the investiture or something. I was out of ideas.

Recently, something about the King’s Drop started really confusing me. When we first see it, we’re told it is a perfect and flawless gemstone, which allows it to hold stormlight perfectly without leaking, and this is demonstrated by the fact that the King’s Drop has resided in the Thaylen Gemstone Reserve for 200+ years but still shines brightly. Science wise though, this doesn’t really make a lot of sense, because if the stone can hold stormlight perfectly, how does the light that allows it to shine escape? Normal gemstones run out of energy because the investiture inside of them is spent by creating light energy. The King’s Drop “holds stormlight perfectly”, but it still shines? Wouldn’t normal scientific laws dictate that it should still run out of energy because its energy is stolen to generate light? It would make more sense for it to be perpetually dun. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but only changes form. Somehow, the King’s Drop can generate light without using up the investiture inside. And Brandon had told us that investiture should actually be following this rule. PrncRny (paraphrased) Why is Breath not consumed in Awakening, unlike most all other uses of Investiture? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Not all Investitures are "used up." Much like energy, it isn't typically created or destroyed, just changes for. With Breath, in what it's used for, it is just more easily and readily recovered than in other forms. source I don’t know if I’m missing some crucial fact that would explain this or something, but this doesn’t really make sense to me.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh I gotcha. This changes everything. My bad. Hopefully Weltall and I can be friends anyways.

Technically I didn't double post, I triple posted. Lol. This is just like defending a thesis. Wouldn't wanna break with convention. Conformity is indeed a requirement. But no need to worry about it now. This is quadruple posting. Technically you double posted though. Haha. I'm just discussing it. I hope you aren't reading it as an angry post, it's just something I thought was interesting and I wanted to talk about it. I'm not really a one and done kind of guy. So I'm sorry if my multiple posting is annoying. Back to what we're talking about though, I can see where you're coming from. Though, the fact that Odium could splinter Honor doesn't really come into play in this because like you and Stormfather said, Honor was dying during the Recreance. And if Honor was dying, that means he wasn't dead yet, and hadn't been splintered, because Honor was still around. That means that Odium would have had to have splintered Honor AFTER he dealt the blow that ended up killing him, because Shards can't be splintered while their vessels are alive. So if you're looking at it that way (assuming that everything I said was accurate) it's possible that Odium might have had to wait until Honor died the long way before splintering him, giving Honor lots of time to prepare. And haha yeah, the Ruin/Preservation story and Honor/Odium stories aren't exactly the same I didn't mean to say they were. Odium's a lot craftier and can see the future, unlike Ruin, and Preservation trapped Ruin's mind, but Honor actually trapped Odium on Braize. But they are undeniably similar. I mean, if I describe one of them without some details, it would be hard to tell one from the other. For example - A Shard resides on a planet and becomes so heavily invested that it leaves them weakened and open for an attack from another Shard. In the battle, the Shard we first spoke of is dealt a mortal blow, but succeeds in trapping the other Shard. The first Shard then dies slowly and tries to set up a plan to protect the residents of their planet from the trapped shard, in order to hopefully eventually defeat it, and set it in motion. Also I just thought of it, but both Odium and Preservation manifested themselves to non-hemalurgically stabbed people in spectral and insubstantial forms. Ruin - Mist guy. Odium - Hologram Parshman guy. I can't really tell the difference. But you're right, I was highlighting the similarities and ignoring the differences. Odium is a TON craftier than Ruin. Honor was somehow able to trap him though, so he isn't infallible. And I think even though he is insanely crafty, he's trapped. And isn't able to take action like he wants to. Again, I just want to discuss it. I'm not. I just don't see the sense of posting a theory if I'm not going to defend it. I mean, these forums are for discussion. That implies talking back and forth. Not just stating something and accepting the following rebuttals even if you don't agree. But I hope you don't read this in angry voice. I was smiling the whole time I typed this stuff out. Partly because I make myself laugh even though I'm probably not that funny, but I really like talking about this stuff. That's why I'm on the site. So yeah, read it in a weird but happy Sanderson nerd voice. Nerd - a foolish or contemptible person who lacks social skills or is boringly studious. I would add "Annoying" somewhere in there, because I'm obviously bothering you. But yeah. Lets be friends @Weltall

...

I was thinking more along the lines of a basically powerless Honor finally meeting his end at that point in the book and moving on. We saw in secret history that So I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that it's at least possible for it to have happened the same way with Honor and Odium. The stories between these four shards and their conflicts are really nice parallels when you look at them that way. I mean, Honor even trapped Odium like Preservation trapped Ruin. And yeah. The Gavilar being a Proto-Bondsmith thing kind of was hard to think through, but it's completely possible that Honor chose Gavilar and started showing him the visions before he actually died. I mean, he obviously crafted the visions before he died, and I don't know if he'd really want to wait to start sending that out. I dunno, it's just me. It would be kind of similar to Preservation choosing Vin before he actually went to the beyond to be the next vessel. Similarly, it's possible that Honor started putting his plans into motion, like sending the visions to someone, before he died. It happens. It would be an even BIGGER parallel if the Dalinar-Unity thing ends up actually being a shard thing. Haha and yeah, I remembered that WoS (Words of Stormfather haha) from the book when I was first typing it up, and it kind of didn't seem like it necessarily disproved it. I mean, he said that Honor was dying back then, but (Mistborn Spoiler) So I don't know if the WoS technically disproves it. All it technically proves is that Honor was dying back then, and that the fight with Odium had been before that. It doesn't necessarily go against the theory because we have no time of death. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, the Recreance wasn't much more than a thousand years ago right? That fits pretty well with the mistborn stuff. Definitely within the realm of possibility. I don't want to argue all over it though. One more thing though, I don't think the fact that the visions end at the recreance is because that's just when Honor died. I just don't think there would be any reason to put anything into the visions that didn't include the radiants or heralds in some way. He was trying to help in the fight against Odium, and there isn't anything relevant to that fight after the Recreance. I need to stop typing.

So, I was recently and am still doing another reread of TWoK, and I've been trying to read into EVERYTHING, because Brandon has hinted that there are a TON of things hidden in TWoK and WoR. Stuff like basically all of the Heralds being on shown on screen or having their secret identity referenced, and how Brandon said in a WoB that in one of those two books (TWoK and WoR) had something similar to how he hid the ending of Hero of Ages in the beginning of the books. So i've just gone crazy overthinking everything. And I noticed this little internal monologue kaladin has when he's in Tvlakv's slave wagon. "Men who had no honor. Were there men who had honor? No, Kaladin thought. Honor died eight months ago. And I realize he is obviously on the surface referencing how Amaram betrayed him and branded him and made him a slave and essentially ruined his life and such, but Brandon being Brandon, I was just thinking maybe it has a bit more significance than just a simple throwback to Amaram's betrayal. If we assume that it IS Brandon being sneaky and trying to tell us that CAPITAL "H" HONOR died eight months ago. I mean, really, stuff on Roshar doesn't really start to pick up until around that time, and then everything goes CRAZY. It has been heavily implied that Odium put off his plans until this time on Roshar for a reason. And if this really is when Honor died, it would make SO MUCH SENSE. No DUH Odium would wait until Honor was completely dead (Leras - Secret History Style) to start setting his plans in motion. Now the good guys haven't even got a dying shard on their side! All they got is one Stormfather, 10 insane Heralds, 0 full radiants, and Cultivation, who, to this point seems content to just sit in a cave be lame. Team Honor all the way. It had better turn out that she's actually accomplishing something in there. I mean, besides blessing people who go in anyways. But yeah! Uppercase Honor died eight months ago!!! I'm sticking with it until one of the arcanists starts throwing WoB's at me or something. JEZRIEN OBITUARY Jezrien, age (WAY OLD), passed away violently at the end of Oathbringer in Kholinar by the fancy knife of Vyre. He graduated a long time ago with Honors (Haha that was an accident) from Ballerz High School in Natanatan. Worked as a project manager on the Oathpact, and is most well known for his appearances in, Desolation: A Roshar Story, and all of its many sequels. He had a wonderful knack for leadership, and enjoyed spending time with his daughter, subjects, and very much later, his drinking buddy, Dalinar Kholin. He is survived by his loving daughter Shalash, and eight of his senile old choir dectet buddies, The Heralds. As our old friend and protector Jezrien passes into the void, let us all remember and think to ourselves,, "Yes we have seen you, and we'll never forget you."

Where is this other theory @Toaster Retribution? But yeah I was just on the coppermind doing my usual nerding, and I saw the similarities and I was like whaaaaa? I don't really understand how the heralds could have been made into the unmade or anything since most of them are still crazily running around like Nale, Kalak, Jezzers, Ash, and all those guys. But who really knows? It could totally be possible for Odium to have somehow tried to copy their cognitive shadows and warp them, or that he just tried to corrupt THEM, but it didn't exactly work. So who knows.

I saw an awesome thread somewhere about how intelligent Taravangian realized that he couldn't save the world, so he created the diagram to not have himself save it, but to have it be saved by Dalinar. Everything that Taravangian has done has only led to another success for Dalinar and the Radiants. But Einstein/Taravangian knew that if Odium knew what the diagram's REAL goal was, he would stop it because it could work. We know that Odium knows what the diagram says, so that makes sense. So smart Mr T disguised it all as an attempt for dumb Mr. T to assume control of the planet and then have Odium promise to protect those that he rules. It's ingenious really. If you look at it from the "Taravangian take over" point of view, the Diagram is a piece of trash. But if you look at it from the "Dalinar saves everyone" point of view, it's going pretty well, and they even have one of the world monarchs in a position to betray Odium and his plans. Pretty convienient. Brainy Mr. T is doing the long con on Dumb Mr. T. I don't necessarily go with this theory 100%, but it's definitely a thinker.

To be honest though, I can't see Brandon going in the direction of allowing the Oathgates to be operated by objects powered by the Investiture of different shards. That wouldn't really make sense. I feel like we should look at the Oathgates in almost the same way we look at keyed metalminds, where only someone using some kind of Honor-Powered tool or splinter can use it. The Oathgates as far as we know are only able to function when being used by someone wielding Honorblades, Living Shardblades, and the one instance where Dalinar manipulates the Stormfather's essence to act as a key. All three of those things rely on Honor and his investiture. The Honorblades were supposedly created using parts of Honor's soul. Sentient spren consist of some combination of the essence of Honor and Cultivation in varying ratios. And the Stormfather's manipulated essence is obviously of Honor. So there are no instances leading us to believe that the Oathgates can function without being controlled by some kind of living or active splinter of Honor, or a piece of his essence. It's true that since there haven't been any instances of anyone trying to control it with Nightblood, Aons, or Aether or something, it doesn't necessarily mean that they can't control Oathgates, but the absence of evidence disproving it doesn't mean that they can either. It wouldn't make sense for Brandon to suddenly go that way when he has made it so clear that they aren't supposed to work using anything else. There have been several instances where in one of his books, there is a lack of understanding that leads the characters in it to create a false rule. But as the book goes on, he constantly hints that the rule has exceptions and isn't necessarily unbreakable. We see this in Bands of Mourning when : SPOILERS Unlike that instance, where Brandon was hinting towards that for the entire series, he hasn't even mentioned anything that makes me believe that the Oathgates could be operated by something else, like Nightblood. I'm more leaning towards the idea that he would destroy it.

Hahaha! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! WHO. WILL. WIN. PROBS CALDERIS CUZ HE'S GOT THE UPVOTES.

I've always kind of assumed that since we have seen the shards invested on their planets to the point where it traps them there, leaving them unable to leave, that pre-Shattering Adonalsium's investiture would have been similarly invested in their dwarf galaxy leaving his power unable to leave. Him being shattered doesn't change the fact that his power was invested in the galaxy leaving the investiture, and similarly, the Shards, trapped. That's just the theory I go with.

True true.

Yeah I've been wondering about some of this too, I actually had a theory involving whether or not Yolen or Adonalsium or both were threatened. We know from a WoB that once there was a plot to kill Adonalsium that was executed but failed, so it could have been. (Personally, I'm partial to the theory that they were either trying to protect Adonalsium's power from those who would misuse it or kill it, or they WERE the ones who tried to kill it in order to protect Yolen from its power.) But anyways, we know that Frost was in part for the shattering of Adonalsium. When he writes Hoid, he says while talking about Rayse that he is what WE made him to be. Implying that Frost had a hand in the Shattering, and so did Hoid. From the way it all ended up happening, we have to assume that they all were in agreement that they should shatter Adonalsium. Brandon has said that there were some of the vessels that viewed it as their final option, and there were others who simply wanted the power, but in all, they agreed that it should happen. The agreement to stay away from each other is kind of interesting. We can't really be sure if they were just avoiding each other, or they were trying to avoid the danger of having too much of the combined power of creation in one place. On those who ignored the rule, they all have explanations except for Aona and Skai. Honor and Cultivation's vessels were romantically involved and probably weren't able to handle being apart forever, so they probably almost immediately met up. Preservation and Ruin probably kept the rule in the beginning, but eventually their intents drove them to each other so they could have their intents be satisfied, because without Ruin, Preservation could not perfectly create, and Ruin could not destroy without preservation. Aona and Skai are a mystery, but as we go farther, I bet we'll get an explanation for that as well.

Yeah. When Brandon has been asked about taking spren off of Roshar, he has said it's incredibly difficult but it's possible. I'm guessing if anybody's gonna figure that out, it's gonna be Hoid. We know that Roshar is incredibly easy to get on and off of normally because of the presence of the shards, but it'll still be really hard. I don't think Hoid really intends to leave Roshar for awhile yet though. Roshar be poppin'. It's the place to be in the cosmere. I think he's probably going to be there until the entire Stormlight sequence is resolved. By that time I bet he'll have figured it out.

Yeah I don't know if they really had to qualify themselves to take up the shards. From what Brandon has told us, the original vessels actually helped take part in the shattering, and they weren't chosen based on how qualified they were. They definitely chose the shards they wanted though. It makes a lot of sense that way. Rayse, a horrible person, wanted Odium because he was just plain awful and a hateful shard must have sounded fun. Ati choosing Ruin is a little different because he was actually a solid and awesome dude. But it makes sense why he, as an awesome guy, would take up ruin, because he would have assumed that he would be taking it up and doing the opposite of what the shard's intent was. I don't think that they really understood the warping capability of Shardic Intent back then. But yeah, they all chose their shards.

That's right that's right I forgot about that.

Yeah Rayse was obviously a seriously bad dude. We know that he and Hoid were once friends, but now when Hoid talks about him, he talks about how horrible of a person he is. It's kind of confusing, but we know that everyone picked the Shard they got, including Rayse. We also know that Hoid was offered one at some point. We don't know exactly how everything happened because everything is so vague from back then, but we have to assume from the information we have like the letters, that Rayse was INTENDED to take up the Shard of Odium. By the way, on what you said with his emotions running so high that he altered the intent, none of the vessels are strong enough to alter an intent that way, we know that the VESSELS are the ones who get altered. Like Ruin/Ati. There's a lot of speculation as to whether or not the Odium Shard has really changed Rayse, because he was already a horrible person, but he can't alter the intent. Brandon has told us that some of the vessels took part in the shattering because they saw it as their final option, but some of them only wanted power (There's a WoB somewhere...). Rayse was probably one of those power hungry ones.

Yeah. Khriss kind of knows basically everything. What you have to think about and remember though is that most of the worldhoppers are somehow associated with the 17th Shard, and the Academy at Silverlight. Khriss is actually the one who FOUNDED the academy. So some of the worldhoppers that we've seen, like Baon, Demoux, and Galladon originally wouldn't have had any knowledge about other planets and languages. But we see them, with difficulty, going about on the planet speaking the language and basically blending in. So what we kind of have to assume is that in their association with the 17th Shard, they have recieved some kind of training, and may even have been educated in Silverlight on Realmatic theory and the magic systems and languages of different planets and nations. As for those oldies like Hoid, who definitely isn't associated with them, and Vasher, who probably isn't, they're both functionally immortal so long as Vasher is able to continue to consume investiture. With that long of a life span, they would definitely be able to learn more than one person can learn by studying during ONE. You also have to consider the desolations, and the amount of information on the surges, Radiants, and Heralds that was lost. The Rosharans are breaking relatively new ground here with the Radiants, and have to learn about them without a lot of background information. But the 17th Shard has all the recorded information on Roshar, and Hoid was actually THERE before the first desolations. So yeah, there's a bit of an advantage to those who aren't natives, but they just haven't learned enough yet.

It needs some work.

I'm a big fan of whiteboards, I find them quite... Remarkable.

There's one or two of us you could say. We should meet for brunch. We could have a fireside.