Ixthos

Make your house out of gingerbread and offer to let them come in after they've eaten some. In seriousness, part of this depends on who is doing the imprisoning. Is it an eldritch being that can trap them in another dimension, or a regular human with a basement in their house?

I was thinking Shallan and Autonomy were similar, but for different reasons. I don't think Shallan is related to Autonomy in setting, but rather related to Autonomy storytelling wise - that is Shallan is a mirror to Bavadin. I think Bavadin was also a lightweaver of the Yolan type, and that they developed multiple personalities because of their lightweaving just like Shallan. Only now I think Shallan is showing someone who combined their different faces, while Bavadin embraced their distinctions. If she does leave Roshar, I imagine Shallan would be interested in Autonomy, and Autonomy in her, but I don't think Autonomy directly had a hand in shaping her.

That would make a lot of sense. Though true rainbows actually are six main colours, not seven despite what Newton thought. I wonder if, assuming this is correct, the colours could be used to tell the relations between shards?

Maybe you should change the title so it isn't a spoiler - I could see this from the front page and it kind of gives away the twist. He might want Nightblood away from the good guys, but so far it seems Nightblood's effectiveness against a shard depends on the shard being too close to the blade. If Odium does take the blade, does he have a use for it, or would he rather leave the blade alone and out there so no-one can think to true to use it on him, as only Odium and Nightblood know what happened. ... unless ... could Nightblood tell someone what happened?

I'm afraid you've piqued my interest now. If you don't want to talk about it that's okay, but I am curious as to what you meant :-) no pressure to discuss it. Fair enough :-) there always is something new to discover when plotting a book, that is for sure!

I think corrupted is more likely, indeed I was thinking in terms of a hard drive, the sectors corrupted. Any change - without removing the memory of how things were originally - would be a tip off to Hoid that something was wrong, as he clearly thinks he should still have perfect pitch, so he still feels like he has the right amount of Breath. Leave the Breaths but damage them - and Taravangian wouldn't have any experience with BioChroma, so he likely wouldn't know how his actions would affect it - means Hoid still has the same amount of investiture as before, only now they don't work quiet as well as they had, vs Odium taking them and Hoid now wondering where five of his Breaths went.

Most likely the third one - a reminder that Hoid is not omnipotent, and he can make mistakes. Without this scene we might continue to think Wit infalibale. This shows us he can still be outmanoeuvred. Though I don't think he lost any Breaths, but rather they were damaged, which is why he thinks they have been fiddled with. He doesn't think they are gone, only that they aren't working correctly - they are there, but they aren't doing what they are supposed to.

Agreed. Perhaps one of the elements in future cosmere stories will be scholars trying to catalogue and experiment with each type. I also agree with that second point - I also think you can't combine a hybrid Light with a Light that counters one of its components, as that seems to me like it would remove that component and leave you with the other base Lights again, so Warlight mixed with anti-Voidlight would turn back into Stormlight.

I can definitely see that as a reason :-) I hope they were prepared!

I agree everything opens up storytelling possibilities, but I mean for your stories in particular - is that tension something that drives part of your writing? I don't know what you mean by real world allegory for that though. Could you clarify what you mean by that?

There are three pure Lights on Roshar. Now, this opens up a large number of possible questions - firstly, that there aren't more pure lights, such as ... sixteen? It seems to tie to which Shards are bound to the system. However, this raises questions, along with the mixing of Lights and the anti-Lights. Could another Shards rhythm, tone, etc. be used on Roshar, even if that Shard isn't present? Could their appropriate Light be made if their tone, rhythm, etc. were used? Would shattering a Shard prevent it - this one I suspect wouldn't stop the Light from being possible, mainly due to Honour being gone but the Light and Rhythm remain, but it is still a question for Shards which don't have the release valve of spren Are any Shard's hypothetical Lights also the anti-Light of another Shard, or are they all their own type (i.e. if Ruin and Preservation's Lights - possibly the mists - were to interact, would they respond like a Light and its anti-Light, given what happened at the end of Hero of Ages just before Sazed took up both? Is Ruin's Light/mist Preservation's anti-Light/anti-mist, and vice versa, or do they each have a Light and anti-Light, a rhythm and an anti-rhythm? Can a Light of one type (call it A) and an anti-Light from another type (call it B') combine together (Light C), and how would that light respond to either the anti-Light of A (A') or the Light of B' (B), or to the combined Light of both A' and B (C') - indeed, if A+B' = C, would A'+B = C', or D - that is, would, for example, would the hypothetical mixing of Stormlight and anti-Voidlight produce a form of Warlight we can call Warlight-B, and would its opposite - it's anti-Light - be produced if anti-Stormlight and normal Voidlight were to combine into Warlight-B'? Further, would normal Warlight, lets call it Warlight-A, match as the opposite of Warlight made from anti-Stormlight and anti-Voidlight, lets call it Warlight-A', or would that instead produce Warlight-C? How many Lights can combine, and does the sequence of those added matter? Does the amount of each used when making a compound matter? Each possibility increases the number of possible Lights immensely resulting in a combinatorial explosion. The simplest possibility is as follows: Three (3) pure Lights, no other possible pure Lights Three (3) anti-Lights, one for each anti-Light (so anti-pure-Lights Three (3) hybrid Lights, one for each pair of pure Lights (third not proven but I will stretch to add this one) No combination of all three Lights (I doubt this - I think all Lights can be combined, but lets go with that for now) No anti-Lights for each hybrid (Again, I doubt this, but this is the smallest number) Therefore the smallest number would be nine - Odium would like that. At the other end ... oh boy. Sixteen (16) possible pure Lights Sixteen (16) anti-pure-Lights (We are are thirty two (32) Lights) One hundred and twenty (120) normal hybrid Lights between two pure Lights (based on 1+2+3+...+14+15, or on n choose k with n=16 and k=2) One hundred and twenty (120) anti-hybrid Lights, which may or may not be the same as hybrid anti-Lights - or in other words, from either combining anti-Lights, or inverting hybrid Lights) Two hundred and fourty (240) Light and anti-Light hybrids, excluding annihilating pairs - some of which are possibly also the anti-Lights to one another (determined based on (1+2+3+...+30+31)-2*120-16, with 2*120 being for the previously mentioned Lights, and the 16 for the annihilating pairs) (We are now up to five hundred and twelve (512) Lights) Five hundred and sixty (560) hybrids of three pure Lights (16 choose 3) Five hundred and sixty (560) hybrids of three anti-Lights One thousand six hundred and eighty (1680) hybrids of two Lights and one anti-Light that doesn't annihilate one of the components (14*120, 14 because it's 16 minus the two which would annihilate with one of the components of the hybrid Lights) One thousand six hundred and eighty (1680) hybrids of one Light and two anti-Lights that don't annihilate with it (We are now up to four thousand nine hundred and ninety two (4992) Lights) One thousand eight hundred and twenty (1820) hybrids of four Lights (16 choose 4) One thousand eight hundred and twenty (1820) hybrids of four anti-Lights Seven thousand two hundred and eighty (7280) hybrids of three Lights and one anti-Light which doesn't annihilate one of the component Lights (13*560, 13 because it's 16 minus the three that would annihilate with one of the components of the hybrid Lights) Seven thousand two hundred and eighty (7280) hybrids of one Light with three anti-Lights that don't annihilate with it Ten thousand nine hundred and twenty (10920) hybrids of two Lights with two anti-Lights that don't annihilate with the hybrid Lights (91*120, 91 being 14 choose 2) (We are now up to thirty four thousand one hundred and twelve (34112) Lights) ... I'm sure I don't need to go on much further. That is a lot of possible combinations.

So is magic a background phenomena, something no-one has been able to access to direct but in theory could do so? Interesting. Do you feel that intelligent dragons and unintelligent dragons together in a story - and that the unintelligent ones should be intelligent - opens up storytelling possibilities? Okay first, how DARE you accuse me of being a mortal? I will have you know I ... I mean, yes, mortal, right. Carry on ... :-P I'm guessing you mean the dragon wingspan topic in the science section? You are welcome to bring that part of the topic into the discussion if you like. I suppose a limiting factor on the wingspan would also be the weight of the dragon, and if you start talking about dragon bones and organs being made of some type of organically grown carbon nanotubes ... This dragon deity, is it the source of dragons in the setting, or it once was a dragon?

Here is the map of Shadesmar with the Oathbringer and Rhythm of War maps added:

Nice selection :-) are they a natural series of species, or magical? Cool :-) are they all related to one another, so descended from an original dragon species with some becoming more intelligent and some animals?

Any works and you also can talk about different versions :-P

Fair enough. I know the feeling of keeping information close to the chest, so I won't press you on any details you don't want to share. If I may ask though, how intelligent are they? Do they have civilisations, or live alone?

First off I am still planning on posting more in the series of world building posts for the science fantasy setting I'm planning on calling “Choice of Worlds”, the next one to outline what I've constructed so far, along with other possible settings that the poll could have demonstrated, etc. For now though, lets talk about dragons! Dragons. We like them as fantasy creatures, and even in science fiction. As powerful spirits, or beings of flesh. As dangerous and cunning monsters, as simple beasts, as intelligent friends. As mounts, as allies, and as beings made of magic or metal. Controlling fire or magic, western or eastern, they are fascinating creatures. So, in your writing, what do you present them as? In my own, I present dragons – not aliens evolving into beings like dragons, but dragons themselves – as alien and powerful spirits, older than many universes, and part of a family of other mythical beings which likewise are spirits. There are several types and subtypes of dragons, representing different things, and as a consequence their bodies and powers are affected and can vary greatly between different types of dragons, and even between different subtypes of the same main type. Individual dragons of the same subtype typically look fairly similar, at least when compared to other types and subtypes of spirit, though they vary just as people do. The properties they normally possess are as follows: Dragons and other such beings can form bodies out of the physical matter around the area they wish to manifest, the bodies then taking on properties based on the spirit's nature. The shape these bodies takes is partially based on the spirit's properties, but also on the beliefs of the people it interacts with. I am still working out how much back and forth there is in this regard, such that for example if a dragon were to appear to aliens, would the aliens have a different belief about what a being that represents the spirit's property would look like, or would the spirit's nature mean that the alien's beliefs would naturally be more in line with a universal morphology – so the dragon would look slightly differently to the aliens as it would to humans, or even to humans of a different culture, but would still be recognisable to all that see it as a representative of that property. (That does raise questions of if a dragon left a planet and went to another one in the same body if the body would change, or even if the body itself remains a general shape and the dragon's power would cause anyone who sees it to see a being with a body that matches their beliefs, while those next to them saw something else.) (I'm still working out some properties spirits have, including spirit's relations.) Because the body is not the spirit, but rather matter shaped and controlled by it, if someone were to try to harm the dragon it would be very difficult to do so. A dragon's body responds to its nature and the spirit's will, and so attempts to change or damage them run up against the power of the spirit. Thus, while it is extremely draining and difficult for a dragon to change its shape to something outside the nature of its spirit, damage can be fixed as easily as if the dragon were constructing its body. Now, admittedly a dragon can find it tiring to continually fix damage, and eventually harm will wear its body down, but that probably will not solve the problem of the being attacking – assuming, of course, the attacker is simply using physical weapons – because … A dragon's body, when destroyed by physical means, will still have a core that is under the spirit's control. Such a core would be a body that is smaller than the body it originally came from, but would also be more concentrated, and more alien. A dragon with a spirit for metal, for example, would have a core that is more molten, a head that would look mostly like its original head, but instead of legs it would be more like tentacles of almost molten metal, its wings likewise replaced with tentacle legs, and any claws it had would still be attached to the ends of its tentacles, only now longer, sharper. One for ice would be likewise affected, its wings now more like snowflakes, and a cloud of snowflakes would follow it's skin. Each subsequent attack would likewise reveal a more and more alien core than the previous, until eventually all that is left is a virtually indescribable alien mass of the concept the dragon's spirit represents. Destroying that would eventually banish the dragon, but only for a time. While some matter is more easily damaged than other – so metal would be tougher than ice – all dragons' bodies are much tougher than the material they are made of would suggest, though once destroyed and the spirit leaves that matter regains its usual properties (I am still deciding if they turn any nearby matter into their appropriate material, only the same type of matter as their spirit's properties, or a mixture.) The spirits can get tired, but could eventually form a new body again, or even dismiss the old one and reform elsewhere, though certain factors can slow this down or prevent them from doing this for a while. They cannot be destroyed, only tired out for a time or banished. Thus it is usually more effective to use certain magic or technologies to fight them if you want to fight them. They are intelligent and powerful, but also alien, and a consequence is that they have many of the same powers that the alien empires that rule universes have, but are much stronger than those aliens. They also – as concepts – control the properties related to their spirit, and understand them in ways few other beings can match, and thus are also experts at technology. (This also means they can breath fire, but only for dragons with fire, while an ice dragon would breath ice – not not just breath fire or ice, but also control it, master it, weave it. Others are more exotic.) Some of them are at war with one another, including those of the same type, because they joined with (spoiler), the Enemy. Those are dangerous, but like all spirits they are bound by rules they CANNOT break, but they are very intelligent and know ways around some of these. They have a very special relation to certain properties of the setting, but those are spoilers. They are not the most powerful beings in the setting. So dragons are spirits of certain properties, but not all spirits are dragons, and not all dragons are alike. At places special to them they can gain bodies, and destroying that body reveals something alien, and even if that were destroyed, the spirit wouldn't be harmed. They are smart, powerful, hard to destroy, and alien. Some are friendly, some are not, but all think in ways people normally don't. There are other mythical creatures as strong as dragons, and there are aliens that slowly became things like dragons but which are not nearly as powerful – some of which are animals – but dragon's themselves are spirits that can form bodies. What are the dragons you write like? :-)

Yeah, that probably would make for a nicer swing.

I think a chain would probably be too complex, at least at first and so maybe with practice a spren could become a single item made from multiple pieces, but I'm thinking more like they are holding onto a single solid tube of metal with a hook at the end to attach to normal metal hoops on the sides of a city. So like those old wooden poles used to pull down or open windows.

Hmmm ... well, a small hole or two for air probably wouldn't be too big of a security risk ... (Also, I know this isn't relevant to this tangent, but I'm also picturing spider-radiant right now, swinging through a city and using their spren to become a "web" to swing on, only in this case its a single pole they summon and resummon, attaching to hooks :-P)

Indeed! Also, it just occured to me that when dealing with someone willing to break their own bodies to escape they could always cut out the middle man and make a hollow metal sphere around the person :-P I doubt they could break their body into small enough shapes to fit through the gaps between the atoms :-P

True, though again I did mention the neck :-P the jaw would block the top, and the shoulders would block the bottom, and breaking either would probably be too difficult to pull off without a lot of stormlight. If they are fully secured, so not just at the neck but a full body bind so that the person has no freedom to move, and is still secured at the neck as well, might be too much for someone to escape from by themselves as they wouldn't be able to strain against it hard enough to break their own bones ... probably. If they could break their own bones then they might be able to. And I fully agree, being bound just at the arms wouldn't be enough to keep someone who really wanted to escape in place.

Hmmm ... I would dispute that, unless you mean they could sense and escape it in time :-P No spoilers, don't worry. Imagine an hourglass that is "awesome" as a certain radiant would say. If something were fixed around its waist, a ring with an inner diameter smaller than the outer diameter of the top and bottom of the hourglass, the hourglass would still be secured in place, though free to rotate around in the hoop. A hoop around someone's neck, for example, would be impossible to escape from no matter how slick the person was.

True, but each of those can be applicable in a different situation. It could be used to take one of the opponents in a fight out of it to deal with the others, especially if that one is the greatest threat. It can be a temporary thing to incapacitate someone until others can arrive to secure them, or even to keep someone locked in place once the fight is over, so not done in combat but to keep someone who has been defeated in one place and harmless - bonus points if the spren becomes stocks. And while it can't be used on Fused it could be used on regular singers, or when they go to space to contain other humans with abilities that require them to be free to move.

The theme of the book seems to be "people who think they know what is happening and are in control, but actually aren't."