Meg

Idle speculation: If the Heralds keep their body throughout the years (what I could imagine), then Shalash (sp?) perhaps destroys pictures and so that show her, because she wants to continue to be unknown. Her two helpers, if they realize who she is, will not tell anybody because of being frightened by her. /idle speculation

A bit of musing: I think, the Breath is a part of any human's soul. But only on Naltis the special premises (the Shard of Endowment) give the people the possibility to share this part with others. It strikes me that the "normal" Nalthian (one who has one Breath) doesn't have a better "life sense" than humans on other shards. It's the "give-up" of this Breath that makes one a drab. So while humans on the other Shards don't have the possibility (or at least they don't know about it) to give their Breath away, they will not become drabs. Please correct me if I'm totally wrong.

I hope nobody feels insulted, but here, I disagree. Here, too. The quote doesn't say, that "the Parshendi could steal it by feeding it stormlight." One may read this quote this way, but it doesn't explicitly state this. Also I don't see any kind of "bond" of Shardplate/Blade with Stormlight rather then having them a "need" for Stormlight (it seems to be a kind of fuel/food for them). Anyway, I'm still convinced that there is a bond between a Shardbearer and his Shardplate respectively his Shardblade.

Thanks Kurkistan I feel so stupid. I really read this chapter a few times but missed this. And I have to admit that I focused on the fight in the house and later. I edited my posting.

I've reread the "Starfalls"-Chapter (Chapter 19) because I think this would be the only one to be interesting. In his other Visions I don't see a need to be armed. If I remember right in (nearly) every situation when he summons his blade this is explicitly mentioned. One example: (TWoK, Chapter 26) IMHO Dalinar never just tried to summon his blade during this event (vision). Nothing in "Starfall" hints that Dalinar tried to summon his blade, not even he was thinking about that. He looked for a weapon and found an iron fire poker. And with this he fought. Yes, he thought about wishing his Plate, but not one word is said that he tried to summon his blade. Not even when he saw the Knights Radiant and when the female Shardbearer "turned to the side, a Shardblade forming from mist into her hand"; even now he joined the fight without trying to summon his blade but with his poker. What is confusing me is that Dalinar knows of his Shardplate. So I think he knows of his Shardblade to. Heb wouldn't have known about either. My idea is, that Dalinar's mind is "in Heb's body" (in this vision). Dalinar thinks (not Heb) and Dalinar acts (not Heb) but his action is constrained by the circumstances he was tossed in. This would (or could?) explain why he knew about the Plate, why he fought so well and why he felt the Thrill even in a state where he was "cut off" Plate and Blade. Can anyone follow my thoughts? I myself feel constrained by lacking experience with English and dict.cc is nice but doesn't give much help on phrases. edit: deletion because of falseness (or better not crossing out but really delete?)

I'd like to help about the links :-). Steelheart- Cover The Rithmatist - Excerpt

While flipping through the Coppermind Wiki I stumbled over Vivenna's page and thought I could help with the "citation needed" and add the referring pages or/and chapters from the (printed) book(s). Is this asked for? edit: --> such a citation would be like: ... MeLaan ... (I know, she's a Kandra :-)) ^1 ^1 Hero of Ages, chapter 24 .., First Mass Market Edition 2009 --> I thought about MeLaan, because I feel she should be added to the important Kandra too. After all she stayed with TenSoon and more or less knowingly she helped him escape. --> Perhaps I missed it (I'm good in that), but I didn't find an overview about the different book editions (especially tWoK). I guess this could be helpful.

Yes, I'm sorry for confusing. I've misread this passage, because I misinterpreted "... grow a full suit ..." for "a new full" suit. Otherwise I thought there it would have been called "grow the full ...". Excuse me.

Hey! I was trying to make a response in the "Szeth and the Stone Shaman"-Thread, but while writing my thoughts I got the feeling, that my posting is kind of off topic there. And since I (again) didn't find an appropriate thread, I dare start one. While answering to IDanielHolm's posting my mind wandered of from one topic to another, resulting for one thing in thinking about creating new Shardplates based on available suits and for another thing what happens while a Shardplate/-blade is lent out and if anybody could run away with a borrowed Plate/Blade. Dalinar -- as you wrote -- was forced to abandon his gauntlet. I think, if anybody gives up his Blade or (pieces of the) Plate, he also gives up his "bond" to it. When Dalinar left his gauntlet he had been fully aware of his decision. And yes, he thought about the possibility for the Parshendi to create a new suit of Shardplate. This implies that it's not "that easy" to get a new suit from pieces of a Shardplate, even more: if the holder of the original one knows about the lost piece and cares enough for the rest of it, one will fail to create a new one out of the lost piece. This brings up another question: If (in this case) Dalinar's armorers would not give enough Stormlight to his suit, does that cause his suit to "degrade and crumble to dust" and instead giving the Parshendi this suit of Shardplate? This would suggest that there is no real possibility to create new Shardplates because the one piece only grows when the other pieces disappear, which I would not appreciate as "growing a new suit". Doesn't this be more a kind of a change? Developing this thoughts further: If making Shardplates were that easy as to take one piece from another and then grow an new one from it, I think this would already have been discovered and used and there would be much much more Shardplates than there are actually. I've to admit that I don't have an idea how to force back a lent Shardplate or -blade. I think this too has to do with the will to lend Plate and/or Blade. I think there would be strict rules about such an event. And I'm quite sure that the person who leases Plate/Blade would be under the owners watch. And much more I think that such a thing won't happen without a lot of people around (perhaps other Shardbearers too?) so that the one who leased the suit will not be able to just "run away" without being hindered. But besides that, as for the Blade I think, that the Shardbearer can only lend it when it is summoned. And because it is his will and his Blade I think he can make it disappear even while it is hold by another person (who cannot make it disappear). Worried thoughts like always, that came into my mind. Please tell me when and where I'm wrong and, too, if you find my thoughts and postings annoying or redundant.

I think, each party gave an oath to the other(s) and as long as each party abides to their oath the pact is valid and each party is bound to this agreement (here: The Oathpact). *don't understand* :/ Do you mean: Does the Radiant oath relate to thus of the Oathpact or come from thus of the Oathpact (quasi adapt them) or something else? Without really understanding: Did the Knight Radiants have oaths? They had their Ideals, but were they oath-bound too -- erm, to whom or what? The Almighty? The Stormfather? In this special case (Oathpact) I think: yes, but I have to admit that I didn't yet give this matter further thoughts. Good questions. May be Honor brought in the Heralds (and their Honorblades) for his part of this pact and in turn Odium couldn't bring himself to Roshar but 'only' the Voidbringers and with them the Desolations. So it was an agreement to avoid a direct conflict between Honor (and Cultivation?) and Odium. But where did the Heralds come from? Ah, I found it. They come from the Spiritual Realm. (TWoK, I-8) Is the Spiritual Realm the same thing as the Tranquiline Halls? If yes, then the Heralds we know (from the Prelude) may be part of the survivors of that event, when the Voidbringers forced out mankind from the Tranquiline Halls? May be for the Oathpact to become a binding agreement 10 people could volunteer for the Heralds' "job" which gave them the Honorblades and some specific powers to equal the monstrosities fighting against mankind through the Desolations and who had in turn to endure life in "Damnation" between the Desolations? That would mean, the Oathpact was concluded to save mankind (which had fled to Roshar) from being cast off there to. This in addition to the prevention of a straight fight between Honor and Odium (as above mentioned). I don't have any idea about this. IMHO the latter. I've to admit that Elwynn's linked posting is overstraining me a 'bit' :-). Oh, I had lots of thoughts rambling around in my brain. Most are lost now. So about Nohadon: Somewhere in TWoK is mentioned that the Knight Radiants had been founded by the Heralds, who had given them their Immortal Words/Ideals too. I don't see (may be I missed it) that the Knight Radiants are as old as the Heralds. I could imagine that Nohadon indeed interacted with the Heralds and that his day was that of the Knight Radiants' foundation. But I guess the Ideals came from the Heralds given to the Orders of the Knight Radiants and Nohadon took over this as his way of life (and therefore went from Abamar to Urithiru and later on wrote this book that, once written, got the laid down guide for the Knight Radiants to have something to refer when the Heralds were in Damnation). Or so ... (please find my answers inside the spoiler) "It"? Roshar? The Oathpact itself? I see that you are dividing the Oathpact as an agreement from its repercussions for (on?) the Shardic investments that had been its effect. Am I right here? That is a good point. But I'm not convinced of this conclusion though I can more easily follow your theory than that one which gives up for lost the Oathpact in its totality. Anymore I believe Taln is still bound to the Oathpact and that the Oathpact is in abeyance and can brought back to use, despite the death of Honor. May be, Taln thinks, he failed because he could not do or did not enough to save Honor. *shrug* I hope someone is able to understand my thoughts. If there are obscurities, please point it out.

Sorry for my request: "Seconded" means kind of encourage my posting/opinion?

Oh dear! You got me a lot to read and I find myself struggling on so much 'input'. Elwynn's posting is very intriguing. And it shows me that I'm lacking lots of basics and, too, the understanding of the greater relationships in or about the cosmere, which I believe is necessary to make real conclusions. :/ And despite my lacks (or therefore?) I'm still attached to my idea that the Oathpact is not unrecoverable lost. One thought (I dare put here, because it belongs to the topic): Somebody questioned whether the 9 gone Heralds could die, whereat somebody else answered that they would have to go to torture if they died. I can't agree to this answer because I think only the Heralds dieing while wielding their blade (which means dieing through a desolation and being actually bound to the Oathpact) end up in torture. The 9 other Herolds gave up their blades and left the Oathpact. Though I don't have any idea whether they stay immortal or not, I'm quite sure they don't go to torture. So this is no real answer to the original question (can the Heralds die), I know, but therefor I don't have one.

Did not Gavilar hand out the "dark sphere" to Szeth to keep an eye on it? This event sure had been at a later time than Szeth's punishment? Or do you mean another dark sphere? I'm worried :-).

(my emphasizes) Just for my understanding: Do you want to say that an "endowment throughout life" is the only way to get the possibility to return? That is, how I understand your posting. But if this would be the case, what "endowment" had lead Lightsong throughout his life? We only know that he had been a scribe in his previous life. Or did I get you totally wrong?

At first: thanks for the links. I've read through the linked threads but I've got to think about it a bit more. Yes, I meant "presume" but forgot the "p". When I think about it now, I'd like to say: "I'm quite sure that "The Oathpact" itself had not ended." Merry Christmas to you all.

Please don't get me wrong but I couldn't resist [ha, now I've learned what SNCR means]. The exact quote is: Why am I so insisting about that? I think the possibility of lending Plates and Blades is not depending on the very person of the Shardbearer. King or highprince ... they are bound to their Plates and Blades in the same way like not-highranked Shardbearers. I kind of have the feeling this might become important later on. About trying to steal a Shardplate or Blade: I think this would not work because lending as well as giving away is an act the Shardbearer is intended to do, it is his will. I don't have an idea how the Plates are stored but when we think about pulling them on, I'd like to think it would take more than only one man to carry the parts away -- bit too obtrusiv one would say. And Blades aren't stored anywhere, they are "nothing" when not summoned by their bearer. In fight, when the Shardbearer is knocked over but still alive, the Blade vanishes.

It may be broken but perhaps there is a possibility left to repair it? I can't help myself but believe that "broken", too, doesn't imply a final destruction for the Oathpact. Ah yes :-), I'm curious to find out why he thinks he failed, and whether he really failed. (My thought is that he could not have failed, at least not completely, because otherwise there would not come 9 more books.) Agreed. Another point I lost. Thank you. ;-) Sorry, actually I don't get what is "R&P" means. (I hate :-) most of the abbreviations used because I often don't get their meaning.)

Oops! I've been so struck on Szeth and Oathpact that I lost track about this. About lending (out) Blades and Plates: I don't have my book here at work but I'm pretty sure to remember that Shardbearers can lend their Shardblades and -plates to other people and get them back. I. g. to give non-Shardbearers the opportunity to duel with shardbearers (non-Shard vs. Shard would not really work). If I remember right this is mentioned when Adolin is preparing for his duel. I see :)/>. Hmm, somebody mentioned, that Szeth has a spren to which is locked up in his Oathstone. So I am not sure whether we can take it as a fact, that "you do not need a spren to ...".

I looked around but didn't find a thread on this topic. If I missed one, please link it to me. So, my thoughts: I claim that the Oathpact had not been really terminated that 4,500 years ago. 1. And -- imho -- in contrariety: (Jezrien's words in the Prelude) 2. TWoK read somewhere else than the Prelude that the "Oathpact" ended; too, in some postings that is stated. I understand this like one thinks the Oathpact is terminated, finished and that this is a fixed fact. May be this comes of misunderstandings of myself (lacking the subtleties of the English language). 3. I personally am sure that the Oathpact itself is not "over", because Taln is still bound to it. Why should he come back (in the Epilogue) if not because of him being still bound to the Oathpact? 4. So I resume that not "The Oathpact" itself ended. By deciding to cancel their bonds to the Oathpact the other 9 Heralds stepped out of this kind of contract but the contract itself maintained and therefore Taln was sent to Kholinar ... So may be there are gasps in this worried posting but I wished to do it though I'm very tired.

I've to admit that you're right . Can't "normal" Shardblades been given up to? If they could be lent, why not given up or at least given away. I'd like to ask a perhaps silly question because I'm confused: Did or did not the Knight Radiants have spren? And I obviously missed where we saw Honorblades in TWoK -- except Prelude and Epilogue. Or did you refer to this two parts? If not, I'd be grateful to get a hint about this. Dalinar perhaps would have commented on it, but Brandon ...? edit: While looking further around I found this thread about the Hidden Heralds where the question about the Shardblades came up too. Now my brain is twirling and I nearly think, Szeth has an Honorblade because he is one of the 10 Heralds. But I don't believe myself . /edit

I can't agree with this. First, I think that Shardblades are kind of magical weapons so I would believe that a short Shardbearer has a smaller weapon than a big one. I think the weapons will fit with their bearers. Which means that the size of the blades varies with its bearer (as must the Plates or do we think all Shardbearers are of the same size, weight and so forth)? Concerning the idea Szeth's Blade is Jezriens Honorblade I've to admit that I sure lack of informations (I don't see any clue which points to this theory). Why "and/or"? I must have missed the part where it's written that his eyes change without having summonde his blade . Hmm, not necessarily, I think. If the Blades "became" the current ones, doesn't this imply that they changed? Changed to "normal Shardblades", which don't have or give the same abilities to their bearers than the "true" Knight Radiants Shardblades did? If only because the act of abandoning leaves them without their "true and original" Bearers. May be the combination Knight Radiant + Shardblade (respectively the Plates too?) is unique, but all "pieces" would work for their own, and only the combination makes the difference? From where should the "actual" Shardblades have come if not from the Knight Radiants. I'm rather sure the Radiants didn't leave manuals to create new Shardblades . His blade surely is an Honorblade. I think these are bound to one specific person and can not be given away or token away, and because this is a unique and strong combination, there is no room for the need of changes (as like when common people gather a Shardplate or blade).

I would like to make it clear that I made up my upper postings without having an awareness of the content given from the readings (this if nothing else, because I hadn't found the topic about the first reading which I was searching for in this part of the forum :/). Because of his posting I asked him and he gave me the link for the transcription of the first parshendi reading. (And now I kind of feel vindicated.)

First, I know I'm doing thread-necormancy. If this is undesired, please tell me, so I will not do this anymore. I didn't see an answer to this but I was looking for something and in a trice I found "east" and "west" sometimes: Prime Map of the Shattered Planes Chapter 46: Kaladin's Ride on the Storm Chapter 34: Kaladin's punishment I don't have an ebook so this are sure only a few quotes. The various editions of the book are sometimes pretty confusing. Without any further hint I had to flip through the book and found the above mentioned quote on page 547 in my book. It's about the "sea-spren" in Kasitor. And when I remember well Dalinar (or Kaladin?) also looks eastward to the Origin. I can't give an quote or page, please don't force me for another book-flipping :)/>/>. From here it's kind of guessing and gut instincts: While reading this thread I found myself -- like some others here -- thinking that Urithiru is on an island. By instinct after reading the part with Kaladin's Stormriding I were sure, Urithiru is lost in the Shattered Planes. I can not give any objective reasons for this feeling. But now? Flipping through the book I crossed over the Ocean in the very south-east part of Roshar: "Oceans of Origin", and more exiting: there is an arrow pointing more to the east, so to speak pointing outside of Roshar (to nonentity or Shadesmar or ...?). Therefore I think my feeling is wrong. Apart from this I wondered if Urithiru is a sunken city (and had been an island long ago), may be in the Pure Lake (after all there are "magic" fishes in this lake). One last thought although it is probably off-topic: After I've read the "First Parshendi Reading" I kind of ask myself which city is "shattered" there. And here closes the circle, because I again believe Urithiru is lost in the Shattered Planes. And now I lost my train of thought. I hope my thoughts are not too confusing.

Hey! So, I found my way to the books of Brandon Sanderson through Wheel of Time, as I was very impressed how he fitted in the style of Robert Jordan. After finishing my last book of WoT I searched for new books and I searched for Brandon Sanderson. So I bought Elantris, Warbreaker and The Way of Kings. And because I've been very curios and eager I took the English books though my English is not that good :)/>. Meanwhile I've read Elantris and Warbreaker 2 times and Way of Kings -- after finding this forum -- 3 times. And I was so proud when I've read the passage where Shallan talks about "... 10 seconds". I took my book away, ran ( :)/> ) to my computer, opened the forum to tell all of you my intriguing discovery ... and -- as that was to be expected -- it's been only my very new discovery. It's a good thing, that I read a little through the threads rather than make myself look stupid. I'm really fascinated with most Brandon Sanderson's books I've read until now. My very favorite is The Way of Kings and I'm really jittery for the second book. At the moment I'm reading Mistborn Trilogy though I've second thoughts about it. But I thought reading it is kind of necessary to understand some postings here. As a young child my parents bought me books, but I didn't read. And -- I don't remember, when -- I just "Snapped" and from there I read much (most about young girls and horses :)/>). Later came a period of horror (only Dean R. Koontz) and then I found myself to be hooked on fantasy. I've read Tad Williams, Robert Jordan, Michael Stackpole, Georg R. R. Martin, Kirsten Britain, Tamora Pierce, Jennifer Roberson, Guy Gavriel Kay, Jane Welch and some others. Not fitting in here: some books from Diana Gabaldon. Those books I've read in German, which is my native language. But now -- at least for BS's books -- I stick to take the original ones. I've looked into the first pages of the translated book and I found myself dissatisfied. After having read the originals I kind of had my own "translation" in my head and that doesn't really fit with the official one. So, I may end now as for you see one of my greatest vices: I can't make it short. Greetings Meg PS: Please bear with me about my -- surely existing -- lots of mistakes I'm making. Please feel free to correct me :)/>.

Ahh, thanks a lot Hokie.