The Count

Waaaaay more than1500 I think. You are only considering he last generation of radiants. If they all had blades and plate and they were around for 10 generations or so (around 800 years) then the figure would be closer to 15,000! That is a lot of missing shards. Even if he older ones are buried with their holders they would still be around somewhere... Urithiru maybe?

True we are not sure. But the reference to little blood around the woman's body and the reference to eyes is certainly very suggestive. I will see if I can showhorn this in to the theory somewhere... too awesome to not be true! Thank you **bows** Only some?! A very fair comment and tbh the weakest point of my theory. The only sources of artificial light we know of are fire and Stormlight. Since no buffoon would put fire in a safe... it must be stormlight or something new. A fabrial of some description is the simplest explanation I think. I agree, the implication in WoK points towards this. But the only real evidence we have is Shallan seeing herself as a murderer. We do not know explicitly that it is her father that she killed. Still my supposition is a little weak I admit. See Voidus' comment below. Indeed

WARNING - TRULY WILD SPECULATION AHEAD! Ok so from the Shallan flashback, what do we know.... 1/ Woman in white (I think this is Shallan's mother) was killed by a shardblade. 2/ Other Men were killed by conventional weapons. 3/ Shallan feels responsible for their deaths in some way - She is a 'monster' 4/ Shallan's father does not feel she is responsible - he is comforting her... We also know that Shallan currently has a shardblade (i.e. in WoK) So my theory for what happened...(everything that follows is theory and has no evidence to back it up) I think that around the time of the flashback Shallan starting showing signs (to those who know what to look for) of being a surgebinder / natural soulcaster. The Ghostbloods (through Shallan's father) spotted this and wanted to make sure that she ended up working for them and their cause. Shallan's mother (possibly working through an opposing faction) found out about this and wanted to get Shallan away from her father and the Ghostbloods. So, on the night in question, Shallan's mother and some other men (one a shardbearer) tried to take Shallan away. Shallan's father cought them and used his soulcaster (supplied through the ghostbloods) to fight them. During the fight, the shardbearer was killed and while Shallan's father was dealing with the other kidnappers, Shallan picked up the fallen shardblade thinking to help her parents (in her confusion I guess she would have been panicking and not thinking about much - she may even have thought that the men were attacking both her parents). While trying to help / defend herself, she accidentally stabbed her mother with the shardblade. End of theory This would explain how Shallan got her shardblade, How her mother died by Shardblade, why Shallan feels guilty and why her Father is both upset and trying to comfort Shallan. This would also make the glowing 'monster in the safe' the soulcaster (a monster by virtue of the fact that it had killed people). Feel free to pick holes but I think this scenario explains most of the questions, even if it is just wild speculation. Problems with the theory: 1/ Shallan probably would not have been so shocked by what Jasnah did to the rapists if she had seen a soulcatser kill before.

Not only that but how did the Parshendi possibly think Szeth could succeed unless they already knew about his abilities? Otherwise the parshendi were just sending a Shin (generally assumed to be pacifists and harmless) slave to kill a full shardbearer (and king of the most powerful nation on the continent) on the off chance that he might succeed. Also the 2nd reading tells us that the descision to assassinate Gavilar was made on the night in question. So at the very moment that they decide to kill him they just happen to have close to hand the most dangerous assassin in the known world... It stinks like week old fish!

Unless he was inhabiting the Radiant who previously carried Oathbringer... what then? Your theory pre-supposes that Dalinar's spirit is inhabiting a physical historical person at the time of the events... (i.e that either one or other of the Physical / Spiritual connection to the blade are present) I think this is unlikely due to the very paradoxes that you state. On the other hand, if Dalinar enteres a pocket of the Spiritual realm during his vision then there can be no physical manifestation of his own shardblade by definition as only the Cognitive / Spiritual aspects are avaiable to him in the visions. I think it is more like a guided dream or 'virtual reality simulation'. Based on real events but actions are only possible within certain constraints, in order to show the point of the vision. I would say that Dalinar's actions were either partly guided, or that the visions are in someway attuned to his likely actions. After all, it would be a poor message from Honour if Dalinar got 'killed' by the midnight essence just after the start of the vision.

I have never really been convinced of this. The main evidence for 'corruption of the blades' seems to be from Syl's reaction to Dalinar's blade (and I think Brandon has said that there is something different about modern blades to those seen in the Feverstone Keep flashback). I much prefer to think of Blade & Plate a ultimate expressions of the Spren bond. I seems that investiture of Shardic power on Roshar is given by bonding with Spren as a result of ones actions / intent. This allows the use of stormlight as a power source (at least in Windrunners and probably some other orders of KR as well). It also seems that the manipulatiion of stormlight grows with each oath given. This leads me to think of the blade and plate as the highest manifestation of those powers. The physical manifestation of pure spiritual power in the form of weapons and armour. I think Syl's reaction is as a result of Dalinar not having attained sufficient 'Honour' (i.e. oaths) to be worthy of weilding such a blade. Or it could be more fundamental as a dislike for weapons / killing in general with more powerful weapons elliciting a more intense dislike. I often wonder about Dalinar's comment of there being no shardtools, but maybe there were before the desolations... But I am getting off topic now... Either way I certainly think that Blade and Plate can be created but at least some flavours of surgebinders.

Vin would get Marsh a nice pair of ray-ban sunglasses (so he can go out in public to celebrate the festive season) Dalinar would get Sadeas a visit from the three ghosts of past, present and future (even though the last one is heresy!) Kaladin would give Amaram a knuckle sandwich. Teft would give rock a nice set of Chef's knives. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!

***SOME MISTBORN SPOILERS BELOW*** I realise I am just prolonging the demise of this thread, but I just wanted to add some of my thoughts. This quote got me thinking (an I may be reading waaaaay to much into one word here) but it does say "the" place nearest to Honor, definite article. This implys a geographical, or at least fixed, location for Honor. Now I suppose Honor in this case could be either Shard itself, or some holy place / relic of the same name, but I think it may be where Honor (the shard) had some from of material manifestation, call it his body (although I do not necessarily mean Human body here). Urithiru was then built as close to this location as possible. I imagine something like Honor's body being under a mountain, on top of which Urithiru was built. Speculating further, this means that the 'Death' of Honor could mean the destruction of his body... (not sure that this actually works well as a theory since the burning of Atium did not cause Ruin to become splintered - maybe if the atium was destroyed completely??) Anyway, I am sure that there must have been an actual location on Roshar that the builders of Urithiru assocaited with Honor directly - I am not entirely sold on the close to the sky theory.

***SPOILERS FROM SA2 READING BELOW*** Sorry, just realised how posessive I sounded! Shall we say A theory I subscribe to is.... On the did the KR have spren thing, I think there a lot of evidence for a yes here even if we do not have a primary reference: 1/ Syl rememebers helping Men to kill before (not necessarily KR but who else could it be?) 2/ Nohadon implies that surgebinding comes from a bond with spren and the KR were definitely surgebinders. 3/ Teft thinks Kaladin is becoming a KR and kaladin has a spren to give hime is powers 4/ Brandon has said Kaladin is on the path to become a windrunner. Together, I think it is safe to assume that, at least as far as windrunners go, the KR had bonded spren. BUT: we also know that you do not NEED a spren to have windrunner powers (see our favourite truthless). Also I am not sure if all the KR orders had bonded spren. I am still not convinced whether Jasnah and Shallan's powers come from a bond with the 'symbol' spren or if the relationship is a bit different... I suppose it depends on how you define bond. Another thought that just struck me is that the theme of bonding / interacting with / using Spren is recurring quite often in the books. 1/ Kaladin's powers (and possibly all surgebinding) 2/ Fabrials 3/ Parshendi Forms 4/ Symbiotic relationship with Greatshells I am beginning to think that maybe all Magic on Roshar is tied in with Spren in some way...

Not convinced by this because Dalinar recognises the Blades left at Feverstone Keep as familiar Shardblades. That is, they are massive and ornate. If they were signifiacntly different (or smaller, curved etc) he would certainly have commented on it. The simplest and logical conclusion is that all the 'normal' sharblades we have seen were amoung those left at Feverstone Keep by the Windrunners and Stonewards. Leaving the other types being Szeth's blade and the Honourblades by default. My guess is that Szeth's blade is much older than the 'normal' blades. From the Nohadon vision we know that Surgebinding, Nahel Bonds and Desolations predate the formation of the KR. It is logical that Shardblades existed before the KR as well. My guess is that Szeth carries one of these older blades. Bear in mind that my own theory is that Nohadon bound surgbinding powers to the KR oaths using a Dawnshard when the KR were formed. This could also have changed the nature of the Blades as well, which allows for the 'modern' blades to be a different type to Szeths's. All Speculation and probably wrong - can't wait to see what the real deal is!

I think these are excellent points indeed. Maybe it was about a new source of power (similar to Meirin's experiments for all you Wheel of Time buffs) that would actually bring about the Final Desolation. ASSIDE: In fact, that would a terriffic twist and irony if the Desolations were always triggered by the acts of Man in some way.. or that a Desolation could not happen without a specific trigger that only a Mortal could activate. It would be like the Human quest for power and knowledge ultimately causes their destruction... or something (that is, of course, pure speculation) Anyway, back on topic. If the Parshendi knew about the Black Sphere, and that was the source of their worry then surely they would have given Szeth instructions to do something with it.. or return it to them... or something. Otherwise, if not for Gavilar's dying words, it would have been found on his body and probably studied by the Artifabrians (it stands out too much to be simply ignored), this would hardly solve the problem. But then again, the plan seems like it was rushed out and they may not have had time to think it though... But this also brings me back to another issue... The Parshendi find out that they Must kill Gavilar at the feast and they just happen to have the most dangerous assassin in the world to hand? This is very suspicious. If there was no preplanning involved they they must have known about Szeth's abilities. Otherwise they would be sending a Shin servant to kill a Shardbearer. Either that or a more disturbing solution is that the Parshendi were given Szeth by someone on the night in question who "vouched" for his ability to do the deed. Taravangian maybe? Who wanted Gavilar dead presumably for the same reason he now wants Dalinar dead (to stop him uniting the highprinces) and just took advantange of the opportunity to pin it on someone else? So many thoughts.....

Agreed, the reading was awesome, some really great things here. My thoughts... Stormform... sounds powerful, I think the obvious link to stormlight can't be coincidence, my money is on Parshendi surgebinders. Do they need to attract Honourspren for this I wonder... Parshendi Gods... surely must be voidbringers or similar. Along with Jasnah's conclusions, this is almost a confirmation that the Parshendi and the voidbringers are tied together intimately. Gavilar's death... Big revelation here and I find it inconcievable that the black sphere of doom is not at the very heart of what Gavilar planned. But why share his plans with the Pardhendi and not with his own advisors / brother? Also did anyone else find it interesting how Eshonai's sister (forget name) is described as having very pale, almost purple eyes? Also that she acts in an odd, almost non Parshendi way? Can we say Herald maybe? ((I know she is the sister of a POV character which makes her being a Herald difficult, but sister maybe a different thing amoung the Parshendi, no necessarly blood relative)) Can't wait for the book. It's gonna be EPIC!

Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honourspren...

That is an interesting thought. Isn't one of the death quotes about carrying a dawnshard (able to bind any creature) up some steps? I seem to recall people speculating that this was referring to Nohadon. Could he have used that to bind surgbinding ability behind oaths? Pure speculation but it could have limited the surgebinder's powers I suppose.

Good point, I think the significance of the words themselves is less important than the realisation of their significance. It the scene in question (the best of the book by far IMO) Kaladin finally takes responsibility for the death of his brother and comes to terms with what has been driving him all his life - the desire to protect. He takes responsibility for his growing power and the words serve as an affirmation of this (similar to vows at a weeding I guess). I think he would still have leveled up if he had said "I will defend the defenceless" or some such. The specific words used I think came to him from his bond with Syl (who was bound to the KR in the past). The key is that the words were defined by the KR but it is the acceptance of the power / responsibility that is important. Also remember that Honourspren are the most picky of the bond spren. We have no idea what 'oaths' the other surgebinders have to level up. I think the 'oaths' for the KR orders are articulations of acceptance of certain aspects of their powers and not to the KR specifically. For a Windrunner (main charateristics of Protect / Leadership) a second oath about protecting makes perfect sense. But for a Stoneward (resolute / builder) it makes sense that the second oaths would be tied to the one of these. But you can still commit selfish / foolish acts and be resolute about it. It could easily have been Nohadon's motivation to make all surgebinders act like Windrunners who must be inherently honourable to attract a spren in the first place (discouting our favourite Shin of course).

OK, so I know that Spren threads are like water drops in a thunderstorm on here but I thought about this while reading some of the generally accepted Spren theories and rather than ressurect an old thread I thought I would start a new one. I guess this must have been thought of already but here goes... The most common theories for Spren seem to be theo following: 1/ They are the splinters of Honour / Tanavast. I sort of agree with this although I am more inclined to believe that Spren are to Honour as Allomantic potential is to Preservation. A creation rather than unintended consequence. I am sure Brandon has said that Tanavast was still around at the Prologue and we know that Spren predate this time (from Dalinar's vision of Nohadon). I guess this still makes them splinters (after a fashion). The key point here is that I believe that Spren are of Honour. 2/ The second most common theory seems to be that Spren are attracted to people through actions / oaths similar to those espoused by the Knights Radiant. (the obvious example is Kaladin - Windrunner oaths / actions = attracts an honour spren). I think this however is backwards. I think the Knights Radient were created to control Surgebinders. Not the other way around. I agree that the character of a person attracts a bond but that does not necessarily mean that the person is not selfish / proud / ambitions etc.. The main source for this is the Dalinar / Nohadon vision. Nohadon states that a surgebinder who "should have known better" causes a war just before the Desolation and "not all Spren are a discerning as Honour Spren". My theory is that Surgebinders were "lighteyes" in Nohadons time. They were given positions of responsibility or ruled outright and being one made you a member of the aristocracy. When Nohadon wrote the Way of Kings it was meant as an instruction for Surgebinders, essentially meaning Great power = Great responsibility. This has been misinterpreted by Dalinar to mean Kings / Rulers more generally. This ultimately lead to all Surgebinders becoming KR. The key point is that the words / ideals of the KR were created to channel / control the powers of surgebinders and do not in themselves attract a spren. In the case of Windrunners, an Honour spren will, by its nature, be attracted to a man of good character. Other Spren Bonds... not so much, so required a code to enforce good character in those who attracted a spren. I hope this rambling makes some sort of sense. Peace. P.S. Szeth is unique.... I have no idea how he fits in with this...

You would've thought he would have got bored of the beard after four and a half thousand years. It must be a totally awesome beard... maybe facial hair gives the male Heralds their power (like Samson).

Another point to consider is the number of blades / plate: In Dalinar's Feverstone Keep vision we see ~300 Radients from 2 of the orders give up their shards. If we assume that all orders are of a similar size then that means ~1500 shardblades and plate for all the knights. (that, of course assumes that all the orders carried shards which may not be the case). But this was only the last generation of radients! I am not sure of the time frame but I am guessing that the Knights Radient exited for around 1000 years from Nohadon's time up to the day of recreance. That is easily 12 generations of knights. So, if the blades could be created by the knights, that means that there should be ~18,000 blades / plate in the world over the lifetime of the knights radient. Even adjusting for the order growing over its lifetime, that would still leave ~10,000 ish. Dalinar believes that thers are only ~80 in the whole world. That is a very large discrepency. The conclusions I draw are could be any one of the following: 1/ The majority of the blades are stored somewhere (Urithiru?). It is plausable that a dead radient's blade / plate were considered sacred and were never to be touched or used again. ((Then why did the Stonewards and Windrunners give their blades to others?)) 2/ The knights could not create blades / plate but passed them down Mentor - student style. ((would limit the number of blades / plate but still a large discrepency)) 3/ It is possible to destroy the blades / plate. ((I think this is the most likely but... HOW??)) 4/ The Ghostbloods are far far more dangerous than we believe ((I cannot believe that they have then all!!!!)

Intresting thread... I think an important point with regard to the in world cultures is that their attitudes will very much be based on cultural history. In our world, the historic non acceptance of homosexuality in the west stems not only from the anthropological reality (same sex relationships cannot reproduce) but also the strong judeo-christian cultural history. The moral framework in the west has mostly evolved from traditional (that is historic) catholic dogma (which has always taught that homosexuality is a sin). Applying this to Vorin Roshar I think we can assume quite significant intolerance for same sex relationships. As several have pointed out, The Vorin religion very rigidly defines the gender roles within society. This gives the religios techings a much stronger socialogical (and therefore cultural) impact. Practically this has led to a more formalised symbiotic relationship between men and women (in terms of their everyday functioning). That is, women perform the more cerebral functions, men the more aggressive / physical ones. A successful (and pious) partnership will therfore have both of these elements. This naturally implies both a religious and practical bias toward mixed sex relationships, leading inevitably to intolerance of same sex relationships. Not to mention that there is already a culture of intolerance / prejudice against physical attributes (lighteyes vs darkeyes). This would naturally make the judgements based on other personal differences (such as sexual preference) more cultually acceptable. Note that I am talking about cultural bias here and not about individuals. As is all things intolerance will exist on a spectrum with both extremes represented. I think most of the main VP characters would come to the conclusion that homosexuals are just like other men (with the possible exception of Adolin, who is slightly immature and hotheaded). Disclaimer: I am not a sociologist or cultural historian. These are merely my own thoughts and suppositions and I make no judgements on anyone's religious beliefs.

Thanks for the links, loads of good discussion on these places. Further thoughts on this now that i am 70% through my re-read.... I think The point raised in the above threads regarding Kasbal's outburst is significant (more than just personal motivation) It seems like Thaidakar is a well known person (at least in political circles). So futher to my theory above... I think that The Ghostbloods are a "radical" arm of the Ardentia who are persuing the aims of the time before the Heirocracy (sp?). I also think that Thaidakar may be the political head of the Ardentia (there has to a head priest somewhere, right?) This would fit with both the destbalisation of Alethkar / Unite Alethela theory (since that was the goal of the Ardentia before the Heirocracy) as well as the assassination of high political figures to that end. The Ardentia are a pretty secretive lot already so a militant wing which is officially denounced as a myth by the higher Ardents would fit the scenario quite well. All still speculation of course but... well... it's fun to guess.

I am right in the middle of my 3rd reading of WoK (didn't mean to start reading it again so soon but got hooked again by the posts and quotes on here... doh!) Anyway I have been thinking more and more about the Ghostbloods and weather they are actually the Evil League of Evil that we all assume. From what I rememeber there are three main references to the Ghostbloods in the book: 1/ Amaram assumes that the shard wearer killed by Kaladin is a Ghostblood 2/ Kasbal has the tatoo of a ghostblood 3/ Shallan's father allo has this tatoo. ((If there are any further references I have missed please feel free to add them)) If you accept the theory that The Shardbearer was Halaran then all three have links to Shallan... but that is slightly off topic. So lets look at each of these in turn: 1/ If we assume that Amaram was correct and this is a Ghostblood then he was fighting Amaram (and by extension Sadeas). Since Sadeas is the embodiment of everything bad in the Alethi... is the enemy if my enemy my friend? Of course, Amaram could be wrong, or we could be wrong about the Shardbearers motive. 2/ Kasbal wanted to kill Jasnah. This is clear cut. However, I think he genuinely did not want to kill Shallan and was genuinely concerned about her. This makes me think he was not so much evil, as misguided. I think he felt that there was a very good reason that Jasnah should die. Of course you could argue that if Shallan's father was important to the Ghostbloods then his daughter's death at their hands would not help their schemes. Kasbal could have feared for his life / plans rather than for Shallan directly. 3/ Shallans father seems certain to have been a Ghostblood. He also had a terrible temper (one that may have led to his violent death). But this in itself doesn't mean the society was evil. Bad men can still be working for honorable goals... I am more inclined toward the notion that the Ghostblood are a political socienty rather than any agent of Odium. Their goal seens to be to destabalise the old area of Alethela (now Alethkar and Jah Kaved). This would fit with assassinating the kings sister, conquering Sadeas' (the kings main supporter) princedom and putting a puppet on the throne of Jah Kaved. Are the Ghostbloods actually trying to 'unite' old Alethela? I know this is all pure speculation we have nowhere near enough information about the Ghostbloods to make any judgements. But Brandon certainly seems to be implying that they are the nasty party, and that make me suspicious.

What if it was the people that were corrupted rather than the blades? That is... for people who were honorable and had no violence / hatred in their hearts, the shardblade would simply pass through them. For those who are warlike / selfish / odious etc the blade is lethal. We know that the Radients were meant to be the warriors so other men did not have to be. We also, only have reference to people in a war / violent situation being killed by shardblades. It's a bit of a stretch I grant you, but maybe the blades are fine, but people's souls have been corrupted. ((of course this does not explain why Syl dislikes the blade...))

I think this must be right on the money, but I suspect thst the expertise must come first. So you study / train and becom an expert in your field. Then it is how you use that skill that attracts a spren / bond or not. Kaladin is a great spearman / leader and he chose to use those skill to try and protect others. Dalinar is a great warlord and strategist and he has chosen to use this to try and build a stronger nation. Shallan is a great artist / scholar and she chooses to use this to seek the truth of events. Jasnah is a great scholar and thinker and also chooses to search for truth. Szeth... never fits into any threories about surgebinding... he is just odd. So I think it must be the way in which you decide to use your skills that attracts a spren bond or not. On another note, I think that 'something' happened seven years before WoK. I find it a little strange that in 4,500 years ther have been no-one who has attracted a spren bond, now suddenly there are 4 (and 1 Szeth) that we know of. So seven years ago, Gavilar met the Parshendi, Seth became Truthless, Dalinar started having visions, spren bonds started appearing again. My guess is that these are all related somehow... I can't shake the feeling (baseless and devoid of any evidence) that whatever this event was, it was something Szeth did. Mostly because he just doesn't seem to fit in... Sorry to go off topic at the end there a bit.

I don't think this can be the case... In the prologue Kalak specifically remembers being tortured himself. He talks about hooks into his body and burning through his skin and fat etc.. Not got an exact quote but it definitely implies tha Kalak is the one being tortured.

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