Fifth Scholar

In the order you asked the questions, here are my answers stemming from my understanding of the rules, which Hero is free to correct. Presumably, the Gyorn knows which players he converted, so I’d say yes. The Odiv, even after passing the pendant, remains a convert and an Odiv. The priest scans alignment, and whether or not that player is a convert, so I would say the pendants you mentioned would not obscure his scan. No, I think. Might want to get @Herowannabe‘s confirmation on this. I think this is a PAFO. Yes, I think, again pending confirmation from @Herowannabe.

Well, I’ve tried roleclaiming twice. First time I did it to two Elims, who subtly misdirected me and killed me N8. This time, the Elim just shot me right away. And I have to say, I kinda preferred it this way. Good job Orlok, and may you always be Nale when there is such a role. Oh, and of course thank you to @Elenion for running this and helping me get hints in the dead doc.

Welcome! Always great to see new players

Okay, that does make a bit more sense. Though nobody really returned Shards to containment, either. Can’t really fault them though, because I didn’t. I do like that alteration to Auto’s win con, though. Makes them more of a proper “faction.” Thanks again for running this. I know I’m saying this a lot, but you two had a very complex game to keep track of, and with the last minute vote and action switches people were pulling, including myself, it didn’t make your job any easier, and your number of mistakes considering these factors is actually remarkably low. And the Shard game format is a ton of fun, so I appreciate you running such a complex, intriguing game.

Okay. My wincon would have been...infeasible, to put it lightly. I read through all the docs. Devotary, that’s not a terrible impersonation of my speech patterns, actually, but I don’t make a habit of talking to myself in front of others :P. The main impression I got from the Hoid doc was nonlinearity, and of course the weird deal(s) centering around the deal with Orlok/Joe. Would one of the parties involved care to explain that? Spec doc- yeah, I was a bit of an idiot about HH. To be fair, I did have suspicion that his win con had something to do with aspects on every world, and I didn’t interfere because I didn’t think it would end the game. Because when you think about it, that’s a fairly easy win con to acheive, especially for one that will end the game- Ruin won’t waste his planet destroying action killing one of your aspects, and will likely destroy other planets, minimizing the number of planets you need to put aspects on. So while it could be argued Ruin and Autonomy offset each other, in practice they’ll try to steer clear of each other to maximize action efficiency. Which is why I think Autonomy’s wincon was a tad too simple to pull off, and though I may not have changed the win con itself, I wouldn’t have made it end the game. In fact, if HH hadn’t attracted the suspicion he did, had to out himself, and use his actions to ward off lynch attempts, he could have won a cycle earlier. And if Ruin hadn’t changed hands so often, well, that’s another planet dead that Autonomy doesn’t need to put an aspect on. So Ruin’s win con was practically unacheivable- he would have had to kill planets first that had aspects on them to ward off Autonomy’s wincon, but then he can’t actually kill any planets, making his ability near useless- in addition, on the single planet left remaining even if Ruin had killed the other five and there wasn’t an aspect there, Autonomy just places an aspect during the Day and wins. So I think that’s a bit weird from a balance standpoint. And my eventual wincon? Hold all U.N. Shattered Shards? Ha. First, I have to either find Odium and Shatter a ton of Shards (Which I was on the way to accomplishing, to be fair, but that would have taken forever with little more than guesswork to go on, and while I’m being hunted by Odium and the Elim factions) or convince people to pass me Shards. And why would somebody just surrender me their Odium or Ruin? I’d have to lynch them, and hope it ended up in my hand- except the Shard passes to a random non-Vessel, so I couldn’t get it. And then we’re back to square one. That win con, too, would have been near, if not completely, impossible. It doesn’t help that I couldn’t have won with anyone else, either. Not saying this game was broken, but there were a few aspects of it that could be improved, I think. And I’m not saying that any of this reduced the enjoyment I got from this game, either (which is why I play: because it’s fun), but I do think balance could be better in a few areas. Finally, yes, I see the autocorrect. But it’s absolutely beautiful, and it’s staying. And finally finally, I don’t mean any offense to Seonid or Rae or anyone who created or ran the game by saying this. I’m not angry, and I think overall each of you did a great job with this, I’m just making suggestions for next Shard game, which will hopefully be just as fun .

Oops. I forgot Joe had given his Odium. Any chance the new owner wants to sell it for the items listed above? Reading through the Elim docs was fun, especially the PAFO cards. I honestly didn’t expect to be such a conversion target. But yeah, looking at all the action coordination, it would have been really tough to lynch either Hoid or Khriss. I was right about Khriss!Ruin, though, in a way. And that paragraph was basically just a giant non sequiter. (I know I spelled that incorrectly.) Actually, looking at how difficult it would’ve been to lynch Hoid/Khriss, it kind of scares me to think about what would have happened if one of the Elim teams actually got Odium or Ruin on N0. They would’ve been nearly impossible to kill, and without vigilantes that could shear through Shardic protection, it might have been many turns before the village could get close to killing the two big Eliminators, not to mention their teammates. I’m not sure how that could be fixed (or if it needs to be), but it does seem like something worth considering when you realize Hoid can sit on Scadrial and survive 11 lynches in a row. But this game was very balanced from what I saw, and great fun to play, so thank you very much to @Seonid and @Arraenae, Rae in particular for her splendid writeups.

Thought that none of the alignments might have changed from the first game! Dang, I should post some of the thoughts that go through my head, and maybe I’d actually win edit: thought isn’t accurate. Vaguely suspected is likely a better term Joe, I’ve got a trade for you. See, I have this lovely Shard of Dominion that I know you’d just love to have, and in exchange, you give me Odium. Don’t worry, I won’t leave you without memorabilia- these now-navy-blue Odium gloves sure look like they’d fit you well, and I can Invest them as heavily as you want. Once I have the Shard, of course... Hey, Jaimo, since you’re now ruler of the universe and all that, do you mind helping out the people who put you there, and give me those gloves back? I’ll give you fifteen emerald broams for them- you’d profit! Plus, with you now being Autonomy and all that, you probably don’t have much of a use for those gloves anyway. Is that fine with you, O Lord of the Cosmere? So Joe, here’s my proposed trade: I give you 1 Shard of Dominion 1 pair of Odium-Invested gloves 1 pouch of Atium beads, from LG42 (I’ll just have Olaf pop on over to Hadrian’s secret desk compartment and retrieve them) My undying gratitude for not finding me before I found you, because I appreciated being Unshattered and able to redirect a kill action And you give me 1 Shard of Odium (Which, if I receive it, shall be dubbed SOdium, because I’m salty at myself for not posting the thoughts that ran through my head that could have saved us this game) Deal, @A Joe in the Bush? Oh, also, Seonid- why didn’t I get a win con like the other Shards did, after three cycles of holding my Shard?

This thought is more than slightly terrifying. Though, I suppose being known as Dominion wouldn’t be terrible. Just inconvenient, because everyone’s questioning your motives whenever they’re redirected. But yeah, if this game isn’t actually over, I won’t be very happy. Hoid and Khriss want to claim? But Happy Easter to everyone! Normally, I’d add a disclaimer saying that I won’t be on for most of the day, but since apparently the game is over...

*is the Dominion that redirected Joe to Bard*

Crem. Couldn’t even take Odium off Joe’s hands. Not in time, anyway. But yeah, well played, @Hemalurgic Headshot. The irony is, I had an idea in the back of my head that I should bring up the possibility that Autonomic aspects in every world would mean endgame. But I just dismissed it with a laugh. Turns out that was my biggest mistake this game. Not trusting Orlok for most of the game, but trusting HH. Well played. *grumbles at himself angrily*

@Drake Marshall what post is this? Also, about my defensiveness- D1 I offered myself to the lynch because I was busy at the time, hadn’t really “gotten into” the game, and was tired and kind of hoping the responsibility of analyzing an SE game would be taken off my shoulders. But I’ve had the opportunity to recently get *into* this game, and in particular I’ve had great fun going on Ruin hunts and talking in world docs and hoping I’ll get a PM with Randuir, among other things, that have really made me start to actually enjoy the game. So now I’m having quite a bit of fun, and then you came with a lynch on me based on one word I said, and then Mage jumped in without explanation. So I was a bit frustrated, and got defensive. I’m kind of disliking that lynch candidates are holding their supposed unlynchability above our heads, and I’m not too happy about it. I’d argue that the lynch should stick, and except for rare cases like Hoid/Survival the person the players lynch should die. If you’re innocent, you can be Returned. If you’re not...well, maybe I understand, but if the village worked so hard to find and eliminate you, they should be rewarded for their effort. While I disagree with Sart that the game is broken because people won’t die, I do think that there are too many ways for someone to worm out of a lynch (Scadrial/Preservation’s Investiture/Roshar exchange). So yeah, my vote’s staying on Drake. If anyone needs a vote count, I’m still updating the one I made 6-7 hours ago, on page 3 right now.

Rippleglyf. I might be responding to a huge bluff, but I think we’ve been looking entirely in the wrong places for Ruin this whole time. After all, it was Bard, a confirmed Elim, who suggested we start looking for Ruin in Roshar or Taldain. And we just blindly listened, and are still blindly listening despite the fact that he’s confirmed evil. I want to broaden our suspects to those on Scadrial and Nalthis, who I find more suspect. Behold: HH Elbereth Magestar Megasif Scadrial*: Drake LivingLegend Droughtbringer From HH’s list a cycle or two back. HH is out, for obvious reasons. Mage is out because Straw Invested him D2. Drought is dead. That leaves Elbereth Drake Megasif Livinglegend I could see any of these four, tbh, but the most suspicious of them at the moment is Drake, as Randuir mentioned. Megasif is a bit too inactive I think, despite his weird posts. I’m not sure what to make of El but I’ll pass over her for now, and LL has drawn scrutiny for some other stuff...but I agree Drake has acted the most suspicious, and the most strangely. And even if he isn’t Ruin, I suspect him nevertheless. @Eternum, if you really are Honor, please “scan” Ripple today, and report the results to the thread. That way, if Ripple is lying, HH can roleblock her. But yeah. Who’s up for a last minute vote switch?

The problem with this plan is that if Ripple does have a Shard, we wait a whole cycle to be able to lynch her. In addition, who else would be Ruin? I think we need to look beyond the Rosharans and Taldains, and see if any of the other refugees are potential Ruins. It’s basically Ripple, or a redo of our whole analysis, at this point. But I’ll try Ripple first, so that’s why I’m voting her.

Vote count, which I will hopefully update as the day continues: Rippleglyf(2): Fifth Scholar 1, Pyro 1, Steeldancer 1, Joe 1 Fifth Scholar(2): Drake 1, Mage 1 Drake Marshall(5): Randuir 1, Fifth Scholar 2, Pyro 2, Eternum 1, HH 1, Ripple 2 Livinglegend(3): Stick 1, Arinian 1, Pyro 3 TheYoungPyromancer(0): Ripple 1 I’d encourage everyone who’s commented but not voted to vote, and everyone who hasn’t commented to comment and vote. Currently only about a third of the players have voted, which is not very representative of the thread as a whole. Status: Up to date as far as Ripple’s vote on Drake

@Eternum There really isn’t, unfortunately. It’s mostly a small, but-if suspicion, so don’t dwell too much on it. I would discourage people from claiming Shards in thread, however, because you’re just telling Dominion who to redirect when they need a particular action.

Okay, fair enough. That sentence was mainly frustration about the strange, bandwagon-y vote, and I was also calling for people to analyze and vote, but I was frustrated, so I said it like that. Actually, looking back at the tone of that post, it’s pretty bad, so my apologies for being overly reactive. I’ll try to avoid that in the future. Your comment about Drake seems a little equivocal, like you aren’t trying to take a firm stance on Drake’s identity, despite defending him somewhat. It may be unsuredness, which is fine, but I’d again appreciate some insight as to why you believe Drake isn’t evil. Randuir makes some compelling points against Drake, and I’d feel a lot more comfortable voting for him if I knew there was an Autonomic aspect guarding Roshar, so we didn’t have to worry about Ruin as much. @Hemalurgic Headshot, do you mind coming over here and making us an aspect? If there is one thing I agree with Drake about, it’s that I’d rather use this lynch on an Elim. A point I don’t think is being brought up is that we can’t use Shard claims to clear a person unless someone’s actually tried to Invest in them, because an Elim could claim to have a Shard that a teammate has, in order to deflect suspicion. So an Elim!Eternum isn’t cleared of being Ruin, yet.

Why? Okay, Drake, the use of one word of mine (deaths) is being overinterpreted. I was leaving the number of deaths that would occur ambiguous, as I didn’t know how many would happen, so I saw little use in guessing a specific number. I said “deaths” to encompass all possible kill actions that could have taken place, including none at all. That’s it, and I’m kind of frustrated that a bit of misinterpretation is derailing the whole thread. And as for your claim that I knew there would be multiple kills if I was an Elim: If one Elim team held both (essentially) unblockable Shardic kills, don’t you think they’d have been using them a bit more consistently? Considering that those were the only actual kills that went through? In short, I’m struggling to see how you get “Khriss” from “hopefully any kills tonight will give us workable info.” I’m voting Ripple right now because I still think she’s Ruin, but if I wasn’t, I’d be voting on you, @Drake Marshall. And Mage, why exactly are you voting me? Be really curious to know, since you didn’t provide much of an explanation. I understand being distracted and busy, but I’d like at least a bit of justification for your vote. Ripple, Pyro is probably Survival, and will survive a lynch attempt on him. In addition, can you provide more evidence to support your claim than a simple action schedule which could have easily been faked? If you aren’t Ruin, I’d like more solid proof. I am very frustrated, and a bit leery, of this weird lynch train that’s developing, and I urge the other people here to thoroughly examine all parties involved. I have a feeling this lynch could swing the game.

@Devotary of Spontaneity Eternum is out, if people are interpreting the rules correctly, and I hope they are. I 99% trust that Joe isn’t Ruin. Bard and Jondesu are dead. So it probably is Ripple. Also, Devotary, that set of actions is uncounterclaimable, when you think about it, unless a Shard that’s tried to Invest in Ripple wants to out themselves, which is unlikely. I think Ripple is trying not to get lynched by claiming she has protection against the lynch, and feigning confusion about what’s happening with the Shards. I see a Ripple!Ruin as more accurate than a Joe!Ruin, and even if Ripple isn’t an Elim!Ruin, we’ll at least have removed a hostile win con from the table. Unless someone has a more compelling argument for a different target, I see no reason to change my vote. I’ll be going to a Good Friday service and should be back in 3 hours or so. Luckily, break has started for me, though, so hopefully I’ll be able to be more active this next week.

Okay, I think this is being overread. Yes, I said “kills,” because there is more than 1 kill action on the table, and it’s reasonable to think that one or several might be used. Had I said “kill,” I could have been attacked for the opposite reason, so I’m not sure what you hope to draw from this. And I should cast a vote, so Rippleglyf. Definitely the most likely of our remaining Ruin suspects, in my eyes.

Cultivation, I am openly requesting a PM with Randuir. Thanks much. Drought...actually had a Shard. But I guess his claim Dominion Invested in him D3 was true, since Honor was a recent acquisition. And now Honor’s free, again. Interesting. Which planet was Drought on? Might give us an idea of Honor’s whereabouts. Kinda meh about devotion’s shattering, as I hadn’t really given the Shard much thought. Interesting to me that nobody was Returned last night. I’ll say more stuff and cast a vote when I have more time.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. I could see a Joe!Ruin, though I’ll admit it’s highly unlikely. I’m more inclined to suspect Ripple and Eternum. But I have a nagging feeling Joe has a Shard. (Though, to be fair, I had that about Drought, but *apparently* he got Invested successfully, so whatever...) Steel, I see Ruin!khriss, not Odium!Khriss. Though I suppose either could work, in theory. We’ll see how kills shape up tonight. Hopefully, things will become clear sooner rather than later, and we’ll get some constructive deaths.

The issue here, as I see it, is that the three largest Ruin suspects (myself, Ripple, Eternum) are still on Roshar, so if it does blow, we’re still fairly unsure as to who it is. I’ll be taking Randuir’s advice on this one. I’d urge people to remember that Ruin could very likely be on Taldain. Last cycle, HH hinted strongly he would be aspecting on Roshar, so Ruin may have moved to Taldain thinking it was more likely to be destructible. In particular, I’m leery of Joe, who’s still on Taldain as far as I know, and Young Bard, who left our world doc. Also, Seonid, it’s Night 4 Also, Arinian, you’ve not commented since a while back, but you’ve been viewing the thread. Please stop lurking. Also, never mind, Joe said Bard wasn’t on Taldain. There went that theory.

...and this is bad? Generally, such things tend to be either deterrents or IKYKs, because converting a really obvious conversion target, especially the turn after they were “cleared” (btw, I was never actually cleared), just leads to suspicion on that person over time. Which is clearly what is happening right now. I mean, it makes sense if you have an unlimited number of conversions like LG29’s Autonomy, but why waste one of your two precious conversions on someone who will attract suspicion simply for being a good conversion target? Not saying it’s completely impossible, just that it’s a strange move when you could convert somebody that nobody has really picked up reads on, and not have your convert under immediate scrutiny, whether good or bad. I won’t distract you from your schoolwork, but I will (hopefully remember to) hold you to this tomorrow. Also @Elbereth you mentioned you’d vote later this cycle-could you please do so? (And everyone else who retracted their vote).

Accurate vote tally (I think Rae missed a few votes): Eternum(3): LL 1, Fifth Scholar 1, Ripple 1, HH 1, Jondesu 1, Pyro 1 Drought(1): Mage 1, Shanerockes 1, Rand 1 Fifth Scholar(1): Stick 1, Steel 1 RippleGlyf(3): Joe 1, Pyro 2, Drought 1 Jondesu(2): Drake 1, Fifth Scholar 2 So this lynch is much closer now, which I like. Not really sure people have a ton of evidence against Ripple other than “she may be Ruin,” but then again none of the lynches have much behind them right now anyway. And @Steeldancer, @TheYoungPyromancer, why am I suspicious/evil/a likely conversion target?

Rand, if Drought is an Elim, he isn’t Hoid or Khriss. He claims Doiminion Invested in him D3, and since Dominion hasn’t contested that claim, I can only assume it’s true. Therefore, if he is an Elim, he isn’t one of the big bads, nor is he a Shard. Which makes me reluctant to lynch him. Speaking of Dominion, he seems to be phishing for info again, investing Drought for no apparent reason. Drought, have you said anything in doc or PM that would lead someone to think you held a Shard? I’m struggling to understand why Dominion would have chosen you. But yeah, I’d rather not waste this lynch on Drought. I agree with the Jondesu lynch being brought forward, namely because I’ve been getting a strange feel from him all game, and his presence on Taldain makes me somewhat leery. I kinda wished I had more to go on, but unfortunately, with discussion focusing on Shards, we’ve had very little info to go off for finding Elims. Which will hopefully be rectified soon. Edit: Eternum