Rainier

I'd give more credence to this if Adolin was still a womanizer or retained any of those characteristics past the first book. As it is, this aspect of his character gets completely dropped as soon as he's betrothed to our main character. I have yet to see any indications of that Adolin who we saw in WoK. While I expected it to show up in OB in the form of some problems between Shallan and Adolin I was sadly disappointed and I'm not hopeful I'll see that kind of development in book 4. This was one of my biggest problems with Adolin in books 2 and 3. In book 1 we learned 3 things about him: he's loyal, he's a duelist, and he goes through new women more frequently than the Highstorm passes. The first two aren't very interesting, but the third gave him some flaw, some depth, some thing to his character. I'm not sure what happened to it, and I don't think we're seeing it again. Yes, everyone is different people in different roles and in different circumstances. However this isn't a real person and she's already significantly split into personalities. She's not normal, so explaining her abnormalities with normal explanations seems pointless. Why make it a feature of her character if it's just something everyone does? I'd say we have great evidence that it absolutely does. Shallan doesn't investigate the murders, Veil does. Veil has those skills and interests. Shallan doesn't wield Pattern as a shardblade, Radiant does. Radiant has those skills without the painful memories. So we know for a fact that she's already sloughed off those traits and skills and then only exhibits them within that personality. While obviously none of them generate wholly new powers or skills, they're each specialized. She gets more adept at switching rapidly between them, but they're each still firmly within their own lane.

I knew I had heard this somewhere, so I found it. Sayre's Law: Thanks for the reminder. This reinforces the idea that she's lying to herself whenever she represses something. In this case, the lie is that Veil is too vital to ditch. The truth, of course, is that Shallan absolutely can ditch Veil if she so chose. Yeah, you're right. The truth/lies and repression are more important than whatever she's thinking at the moment. She's definitely self-loathing, and given that Veil is the one who was 'wearing' the body at the time, it's likely that Veil has much of Shallan's self-loathing. Still, for the endgame I can't get away from Tyn's warning: So what's real? We've been working under the premise that Shallan is somewhat fake. She's a persona meant to attract and marry Adolin, just as Veil is for infiltrating/joining the Ghostbloods and Radiant is for fighting with a Shardblade and being a Radiant. The longer she keeps up all three, the worse for her it will be, and I can't shake the feeling that this is exactly what's going to happen to Shallan. I'm not sure exactly what will happen, but I expect her to try to maintain the three personae one day more, and then...

I want to bring this line back up because it's important to this part of the discussion. How is Veil a subsidiary of Shallan when she, in her own thoughts, represses the idea of abandoning Veil, describes her as too vital to abandon, and then immediately says Shallan would be easier. It seems like it's obvious, and that's actually what made me read it again. We know Shallan represses truths that hurt her. Therefore, if she's repressing something, it's probably a truth she doesn't want to face. Here, she represses the thought that she could abandon Veil, therefore she can absolutely abandon Veil. However she still thinks of Veil as more real and more vital, so I guess the interpretation depends on if you trust her in the moment. You can tell what I like to read, and what's kept this thread going for so long. I really don't like the fanfic/shipping stuff, so you see what I did. I brought up a point I thought would make you reconsider but instead it made me reconsider. Regardless, I don't think I agree with you interpretation of Veil as subsidiary, both due to the above and the WoK endpages written by Aimians that say she has the heart of a thief. If Veil is her heart, and Shallan is the mantle, which is subsidiary to which? And now I've talked myself back full circle....Argh no wonder nobody else likes this thread. Still, thanks for participating. It's always good to have fresh faces and takes.

Thank you for this, as it's exactly what many of us here are looking for: analysis within the context of foreshadowing and character development. This also goes to the shipping/predicting dichotomy. I'm firmly on the predicting side, and I wouldn't be doing this for another author. I don't really care about relationships in ASoIaF, Harry Potter, Wheel of Time, or the other fantasy novels I read (leaving out Rothfuss because I'm more invested in Kvothe/Denna than the other exampels). Brandon is different because he's trained me to expect these things. He's let me know that what's coming at the end is right there at the beginning if you can find the right lines and interpret them the right way. The only reason I'm invested is because I like that game and I like playing it, but there are winners and losers. The winners get their guesses vindicated and the losers....well the losers write erotic fanfic, or maybe fill up a forum thread with 70+ pages. What you've done is play the game with us, which hasn't really been the case with other Shadolin proponents. Most of what we've gotten seems to take what happened at face value, which isn't just not playing the game but saying the game doesn't exist in the first place.

For you it was Adolin, for whoever's still around (and isn't scolding us), it's Shallan. If this really is the end of her love triangle, I'm going to be disappointed. Mighty disappointed, much like I imagine you feel. It scares me. You're like Jezrien, drunk in the streets, moaning about the Unmade and I see in you my future....

To be clear, are you saying that Veil doesn't have feelings for Kaladin? That instead it's Shallan who has the feelings but pretends that it's Veil? Something with the pronouns threw me. I'll hide some in a spoiler... There are times when a cigar is just a cigar, and there are times when a cigar is a potent phallic symbol. In this case, there are times when someone's posture is just how they're sitting, and there are times when the sitting is itself a symbol. All throughout we hear about The Girl Who Stood Up. This scene? She's seated. She's sitting down when she does the flickering of personalities and she's sitting down when Adolin recognizes her. I sometimes think it's just wishful thinking, but there are other times when I think it feels this way on purpose in order to set expectations that will later be subverted, and the posture is the clue to watch out for that subversion.

This is the key, isn't it? Because I could totally imagine a series that ends book 3 with two characters marrying and begins book 4 a year later as they raise their first child. Just as you say, the rushed ending of OB means that to simply skip straight to baby would be even more jarring. If it does happen, I expect it to be as part of their relationship breaking down as they start to resent each other. Frankly, I expect that to happen anyway, it's just that a baby would also fit into that theme. They've got some serious work to do, and they may not end up together at the end of book 5. I don't see introducing a baby during the skip unless it was a tool/plot point in their deteriorating marriage. It would be a source of conflict that's sorely needed between them. It makes sense to hide a 9 month pregnancy in a one year gap in the story, I'm just less convinced it makes sense to have Shallan bear a child. That actually brings up another point: Adolin doesn't matter. He's not a main character, he's not going to get tons of screentime, and there doesn't seem to be much depth to his character. He's going to keep on keeping on as he is. What happens to Shallan matters. She's our main female lead (at least books 1-5, after which I suspect she'll make way for Lift and Jasnah) and her thoughts, actions, decisions, and consequences are what we're following in these books. Maybe that will be it...Adolin pushing for a child because he's a Highprince and needs an heir. Shallan unwilling to have a child so young, or terrified of being a mother herself given her trauma with her family. But because Shallan is the one who really matters, I think any pregnancy will be used to achieve a certain goal for her story. Hopefully that means the reconciliation of her various personae, a topic I won't delve into here.

When he was young. Meanwhile he hears the screams since like what, 2 years ago? Not more than five. Ah yes. He's a backstory character, and, except for the two Heralds, I think all of them had a chance to bond spren by the start of the series proper. Dalinar (and Gavilar) were on the path to becoming a Bondsmith for some years, so I'll excuse him. The rest (Lift, Jasnah, Renarin, Kaladin, Shallan, Eshonai, Szeth) had some kind of experience that needs to be explained in those backstory chapters. This quote puts the timeline much, much earlier than I expected. It makes me think of Jasnah's mysterious illness when she was a child, and how she bonded her spren. Jasnah is only a year younger than Szeth, so while she was suffering as a child, he could have met his spren for the first time. It just pushes the timeline for the return of the Desolations ever backward. When did Taln break? When did the spren return? What happened first, and when, that set this all in motion?

I thought that this was due to his revival (which didn't work entirely properly) that leaves him loosely connected to the physical realm, and thus he hears people and things from the spiritual realm. Screams, etc. Although he very well could have begun to bond a spren, which led him to declare the Desolations returned, which led to him being declared Truthless, I don't think that's what was referenced by the voices.

Not sure how I missed the sexual innuendo but when you do a little editing for brevity, you get this. When you put it that way...

You mean at this point she's the girl who stood up? The whole Shallan that Hoid is encouraging her to become, or allow to reemerge? We haven't seen many glimpses of whole-Shallan, but I think you're right, this is one of them.

@Wit Beyond Measure @Varion Yeah, it was @MonsterMetroid, and the direct link is here, which I was referencing with the Thunderclasts/Gemhearts link. Props to him. I thought it was kind of a silly post at first, but it was thorough and I'm glad we can get some use out of it. Forget future battles, we got our first look at Thunderclasts in one of Dalinar's visions. Where was he? The Purelake.

First, while all of the Five Scholars were contributing to their collective knowledge, it was just Vasher and Shashara who created Nightblood. That's why Vasher killed just her and not the others, because she was the one with the knowledge which he decided was too dangerous to spread, and she was threatening to spread it further. Now, of course, we know that Yesteel knows how to make the swords, and may have had a hand in creating Vivenna's sword. Nightblood can learn and grow, but those first few moments of sentience are unchanging. So that's why Shashara is always alive, Denth is always pleased with him, and Vasher and the other two are friends with each other, instead of bitter enemies. Check out the annotations for Warbreaker, if you haven't already. Here's the chapter in question where Brandon talks about Nightblood's origin and the possibility of learning. Spoilers, duh.

I'll add to this, as I think your summary is a great start. The patron of the order of Elsecallers is Battar, whose Divine Attributes are Wise and Careful. Given the comments about logic vs instinct, I'd guess the second ideal is swearing to be careful and wise instead of impulsive and spontaneous. We saw that Kaladin's ideals have been more about protecting than about leading, so I'd guess that the early ideals for Elsecallers have more to do with wisdom. "I will consider all available options," or "I will decide using logic, not emotions." Another realization, but this may be why Jasnah is so closed-off and is still single. If her spren and Nahel bond requires her to repress her emotions and rule her life with logic, it stands to reason that would be reflected in her personal life.

I honestly have no idea, I just changed it. Although I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing more people with colorful idioms.

No Shipping. NO SHIPPING. Hmmmmmmm.

What I wanted to see from Amaram was the fulfillment of his promise/threat to Dalinar. He said, more or less, You Need Me. I wanted to see Dalinar Need Amaram, like Gavilar clearly relied on him. Clearly Gavilar trusted Amaram much more than Dalinar, and I wanted to see more of Gavilar through the interactions of the remaining two. But nope. Amaram sucks. He's a traitor and he swallowed the gem first chance he got. Like I said, at least we get a little more ambiguity from Moash. I just wish it wasn't wasted on Amaram.

Good point, and a small distinction I forgot. It still indicates that those 9 are 9/10 of the re-founding Radiants, and we as readers know what Dalinar doesn't: #10 is Venli and she was there, too. Pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease let me see this.

Oh boy storms, another shipping thread has emerged. For all we know, Veil is the realest part of Shallan. Think of this: which persona was created first? It was Veil. She made Veil when she was crossing the continent heading towards the Shattered Plains. She makes her 'Shallan' persona when she's first introduced at court. Radiant comes out when she tries to practice with a Shardblade and can't stand to hold it. Regardless of which portion of her is dominant, all three fragments are still her, and she's still going to have to reconcile all of them (all of her) in order to progress as a Radiant or even to keep Pattern alive. You mentioned her ignoring Pattern, and how it bothered you, but I don't think you've made the connection that the reason she's doing so is because she's divided against herself. 'Shallan,' the one who gets married, HATES Pattern, because she attributes her mother's death to him. That's why she needs Radiant in the first place. I'm not so sure Radiant would choose Adolin over Kaladin, since she's the one who seemed to enjoy the power-couple Radiant dynamic. At best she's got 1/3 Adolin, 1/3 Kaladin, and 1/3 practical, technical, asexual (like Jasnah). She needs to stop coping and start actually healing, and there's no way that's going to happen until her personalities are unified, which means addressing her attraction for Kaladin instead of shunting off to a persona. As for the Kaladin/Jasnah (I like the moniker Kalasnah, but you're more likely to see Jasnadin) pairing, there's a reason I mentioned Radiant and Jasnah in the same sentence. Radiant is the part of Shallan that wants to be like Jasnah, including being slightly bustier and also, apparently, less interested in sex and romance. Jasnah has seemed to repress her sexual feelings, instead choosing to wield her beauty as a weapon. She also seems utterly appalled by the thought of subsuming herself to a man through marriage or partnership. If I had to guess why I'd say trauma, like the rest of the Radiants. We got a few clues in OB about Jasnah, specifically some kind of illness as a youth. I'm guessing she's not just asexual by choice, but rather as a result of some trauma from her past that will be revealed in her background book (book 10, tentatively). For these reasons I don't see her forming a relationship with Kaladin, and frankly I don't think he'd be very interested in her. He had a hard time overcoming his distaste for Shallan as a lighteyes, and that was only after Shallan let her guard down and revealed to Kaladin just how much they have in common (trauma, broken people). Until Jasnah does the same (there's a scene I'd like to see), Kaladin is more likely to remain aloof from the new Queen. The absolute best I could see for them is some kind of casual sex relationship where they don't have to do anything socially together, or answer to the expectations of others, which I would be surprised to see be explored. Even if it did happen, Brandon seems more likely to keep it off screen. This is one of the more popular ships, but I don't see any hints or evidence that it's coming.

Mostly because she goes around destroying things, specifically images of herself, and we have a small sense of ashspren/Dustbringers being very fond of breaking things apart to see what's inside.. We also have a Dustbringer that's not exactly one of the good guys, so the setup is there for a switcheroo. The moment when Dalinar was looking around and saw all ten people, Ash was there. The fact is that these ten people are the same ten people that will get backstory POVs (with Venli in place of Eshonai) further reinforces that these ten are the ten that are the new founding Radiants. We'll just have to wait and see if Ash already has a bond with a spren, or if she'll make one in the coming books. One thing is certain: Ash has no business being a Lightweaver these days, and I wonder if she was ever very well suited to her role. We've seen how she's grown to resent it.

I like Amaram and Moash.... Or at least I liked what I thought Amaram was going to be. I was disappointed he just...switched so quickly and easily. I thought we'd see a lot more of his inner conflict and justifications. At least we're getting some of that from Moash, so I'm happy there. Taravangian is also a great character, and I'd qualify him as an antagonist.

I assume that had more to do with when Nightblood was created, or his actions in the Manywar. I didn't interpret that as having to do with Nightblood's current whereabouts, although I suppose it could be. There's just plenty of things that could keep Vasher up at night. I have to assume that if Vasher wanted Nightblood, he'd have him, which only adds to the mystery. What the hell happened to that sword?

A Tribute to our favorite Herald, may he rest in peace. Lashing through the sky With a bag of glowing spheres O'er Alethela he flies There is naught to fear He protects us all Glowing with Stormlight Give Honor thanks we have him here A Herald came to fight! Jezrien, Jezrien, We owe you everything. Save us from our enemies Herald, King of Kings. Jezrien, Jezrien, We owe you everything. Save us from our enemies Herald, King of Kings!

Sentient sword, blasphemous sword, Evil dies, it wants more; Destroy evil every day Smoking scabbard leaves no remains Drink Ivestiture deep, Drink Ivestiture deep! Nightblood will fight, while there's Stormlight, When he's out, you'll turn white; If he drains you fully you'll die, Sheathe him quickly or say your goodbye Nightblood destroyer of Shards, Nightblood destroyer of Shards! Sentient sword, blasphemous sword, Vasher's shame whose lover it gored; All colors will drain from the place Where it touches you just a taste, Destroy Evil today, Destroy Evil today!

I figured that the Nightwatcher was aware of Nightblood on Roshar, and offered it to Dalinar, not because she had it in her possession, but because it's something a greedy or bloodthirsty man might covet. She offers him what she thinks he wants, he tries to tempt him into succumbing to his baser desires which she will then provide alongside an appropriate curse. So if Dalinar had gotten sidetracked and said, "You know what, that sword sounds awesome. Forget forgiveness I want that," then the Nightwatcher would have led Dalinar to Nightblood somehow and likely guided him into taking it for himself. I don't think Nightblood was ever in the possession of either Cultivation or the Nightwatcher, but then again the chain of custody of Nightblood is one of the mysteries I'm most excited to see revealed, so while I doubt it was the case, I'm not prepared to rule out anything. Such a specific call-out of Nightblood is certainly noteworthy.