Rainier

Butbutbutbut this is just desperate Shalladin shippers making stuff up out of whole cloth! Yet another remark for the Veil-is-the-realest-Shallan pile, which seems to be growing. For all the disparagement of these endless shipping threads, we're on page 63 and I'm still picking up new hints and clues, with stuff like Veil-is-the-realest-Shallan one of the best from the most recent discussion.

Yeah, relative power of Vasher vs Heralds depends on a couple of things, but I think the #1 most important factor is the Honorblades. The Honorblades are most likely directly connected to Honor, and so I'd guess they are more invested than any single Returned upon Return. Without them I'm not sure what Vasher collected a treasure of 10,000 Breaths somehow, and somewhere, but we don't know where they went or if he's still holding them. There's even speculation that he got that Investiture from Roshar. This is again a question of how Invested these characters are themselves, without their artifacts. I'll also mention that the only reason Vasher could do that on Nalthis is because there were bones set into the statues, however you're right that a Soulcast body would be able to be Awakened, as it had once been alive. That's more of a question of knowledge as power, rather than magic as power. Vasher is certainly one of the most learned characters we've met, and I'd assume he's up there with Khriss in terms of Cosmere knowledge in the tier below Hoid.

Yeah, I'd say he's in the same realm, albiet not as much concentrated Investiture. The Returned are technically slivers of a Shard, which is also how I'd interpret the Heralds. However I get the feeling that 10 specific Heralds with 10 powerful Invested artifacts are, while of the same class as Returned, much more powerful due to fewer of them. I'm not sure what the count of Returned is, but it's easily dozens at any one time. That being said, even though he may lack the raw Investiture of a Herald (or Honorblade, we're not exactly sure where most of the power lies), the fact that he knows how to create a superweapon makes him easily one of the most dangerous creatures in the Cosmere.

Not a picture, but pronunciation. Spren is totally pronounced in the German way (Shpren). Think about it: all of these words are two different words slammed together: spanreed, shardblade, shardplate, gemheart, oathpact, honorblade, voidbringer, chasmfiend, etc. Which language does this? German of course! What does that mean? It means gimme that shpr sound! Shoutout to our resident Germanshpren @SLNC.

There's some content I can't track down at the moment that speculates where gemhearts, naturally deposited by dying creatures, would congregate based on Highstorms pushing them around and burying them in crem. I hadn't considered that a Thunderclast would find a gemheart embedded in the rock and inhabit that, then use it to animate the rest of the rock. Great insight!

You mean an Ardent, owning property? The only way Zahel claims Nightblood is if he reveals himself as the highly-invested worldhopper Vasher (or pick a name), and even then I don't see Szeth giving up the sword easily. It was entrusted to him by his god, and there's clearly plenty of backstory we're missing about the circumstances under which Nightblood and Vasher parted. Add to this Azure/Vivenna hunting both Vasher and Nightblood with a sentient sword of her own, and I'm expecting much, much more from this story line than confiscation. I posted a while back about this scenario, too. As for this topic, it really feels like speculation on how to munchkin the most power out of what we're given. Nightblood is the closest thing we have to a nuclear bomb in the Cosmere, and the tradeoffs are there to prevent people using him, not as a challenge to overcome. Also, get off my lawn you whippersnappers! (I understand how curmudgeonly I'm sounding, I don't want to rain on the parade here).

As much as I'd like to find meaning in this passage, I think the only thing that matters is there at the end: Everything else is Brandon teasing us about the Triangle, but that sentence is like one of Wit's where you can tell it's not the character saying the line, it's the author. Brandon is acknowledging the difficulty of constantly escalating the story. If sequels always have to be bigger, imagine what that means for a 10 book epic fantasy series.

It's both, isn't it? I see your sentiment pretty regularly, and while I sympathize I don't really agree. I'll take the bickering and partisanship if it means there's more people analyzing and delving into the characters. In our 62+ page thread on Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin we've got quite a bit of group jockeying, but also some of the most in-depth character analysis I've seen. It makes me wish Dalinar was in a love triangle because then we'd get more analysis of him and his psyche. Besides that, I know what you're talking about when it comes to trying to be right. It can feel like it's a contest to throw the most crem at the wall and see what sticks come book 4. There's relatively little cost to speculating, and I suppose the reward (pointing out how you were right four years ago) is worth the cost. I'd also say that the contest is so bitter because the stakes are so small. It feels like something that's more in the realm of the fandom instead of the sole purview of the author. What I mean is that from a story perspective it doesn't matter if our Windrunner is romantically involved with our Lightweaver, or any other particular Radiant. Adolin hardly matters at all in the scope of the apocalypse, which is the scope for the books that we need to keep in mind. Which outcomes occur won't affect other books, or other worlds, or other eras, so the stakes are relatively trivial in world. There's a thousand different ways the plot could develop going forward, and the only thing we know for certain is that it's a conflict with Odium. With the relationship triangle, there's really only two outcomes. It's easier to stake out a position when it's A vs B, but a lot harder when it's pick a number 5-500. Just some meta-level rambling thoughts as someone who's been neck deep in this stuff.

This line, about Thunderclasts, is really striking to me. Since when can stone hold a spren? Nothing living, huh? But stone doesn't live, does it? What a thought, that stone could hold stormlight indefinitely... I interpreted this as the Dawnshards, which we know very little about. I'm attaching them to whatever the hell happened to Ashyn and caused the exodus to Roshar in the first place. Some artifact of great and mysterious power that's foreshadowed early so that way there's somewhere for the series to escalate in future books.

This is exactly what I'm expecting. My prediction is what @Ailvara said: that we'll get an end to this Desolation at the end of Book 5, and the gap between books 5 and 6 is the gap between Desolations. I'm expecting the 10 backstory characters to be the 10 Heralds bound to the Oathpact, so Ash and Taln would repeat their roles, although Ash would take the role of Dustbringer. I'll take bets on which Herald breaks. This idea crystallized for me when I read about how the Desolations would come back repeatedly, with a gap of years in between. Where are we expecting a 10+ year gap? Why might that be the case? Oh yes! Becuase all of our main characters are trapped in Damnation being tortured, we'll just take a pause until one of them breaks.

I thought it was explained: the shards. Jakamav was not a full Shardbearer, and this was his chance to get a Blade to go with his Plate. Simple greed and opportunity. Since he's not a major character, he really doesn't need to have his motivations explained, and now that he's served his purpose in the story (Adolin gets betrayed by so-called friends) there's no real reason to keep him around. In general I agree with you. I would have liked to see him once or twice in TWoK to set up the betrayal, and I would have liked to see him maybe once early in OB to touch base on what happened to him afterwards. What does this mean? Estimated Time of Arrival is all I can think of and it doesn't make sense.

I don't know that this is true. If it were, why would Jakamav fight against him without so much as a warning? I thought that the whole point of showing Jakamav as a character was to present a friend of Adolin, and then show just how shallow that friendship is. The lesson I learned from that is that Adolin really doesn't have anyone he's close to besides his family (Renarin, Dalinar, Navani, Jasnah, Elhokar). The rest of it I agree with. He's certainly comfortable with soldiers and can do the brother-at-arms, like you say. I just think he's not making close connections with anyone, really, male or female.

And just like that we bring their marriage (completely optional from the greater story arc point of view) and brings it into focus as a part of Shallan's growth as a Radiant. Hiding deeper truths won't cut it for her, and if she believes the lie, either her or Pattern (or both) are going to get killed for it. Shallan was warned by Lyn: don't believe the lies you tell. She hasn't taken that warning to heart, and it's going to come back to haunt her. I like how this scenario brings a thread that has no real meaning (who ends up with who) and ties it into the main story (Desolations, Radiants, end of the world). That makes me think it's more likely, as it allows all parts of the novel to contribute in multiple ways. Good thoughts, as usual.

I'm going to agree here, and mention that it very close to what Elhokar is doing, too. Elhokar also notices that Kaladin just draws people to him, that he naturally steps into a leadership role, and is acclaimed as a hero. Like Adolin, Elhokar attempts to get Kaladin to teach him, or show him what to do, or simply keep him around so some heroism rubs off. It's funny how alike the two cousins are, especially in their reaction to the darkeyed bridgeboy Radiant.

Honestly I just went through the Oathbringer Summary and looked at the PoV character for each chapter to remind me. Jasnah only get her own chapters in Part 2, which is why I've got her as T3. Yeah, I did forget about her. I was trying to fit the Radiants in, or at least the first five. Adolin and Navani are the two non-Radiants who get the most screen time. I felt like I was missing one character, and Navani is by far the most likely. I just didn't expect her to have her own row on the outline, I guess.

You joke, but it's as good a place as any to start, and given what we know about their powers, using their will to shape matter seems to be a good bet. Yeah, like this. Manipulating the very earth around you using the power of your will.

There's 10 books. Something has to be left for the back 5. I'd expect the Ghostbloods to get more screen time in books 4 and 5. Certainly much more than the Sleepless, because we actually have some significant interactions with the Ghostbloods. Seriously, there's no way you can write an epic fantasy series unless you constantly escalate your problems. I see the Sleepless as something that's going to be a big deal later in the series, but isn't important just yet. Maybe by the end of book 5, maybe in book 6. I would expect other mysteries (Dawnshards?) to take up more pages in the much later books, and more mysteries that we're not really aware of to start cropping up.

That may be, but that doesn't mean her needs will stay the same, or that they'll be right for each other when they do. That, I think, is the most likely reason for their relationship failing: the pace of change. Oh I understand, for sure. I've spent a lot of time Invested in Shallan/Kaladin, so I don't claim to be neutral in any way. I'll just chime in that while our two opposite sex main characters getting together romantically might be a trope, or a cliche, I don't really mind either tropes or cliches, I mind them done poorly. As long as it's a good story well written, I'm OK with anything. However, what I'm not OK with is foreshadowing that goes nowhere. I'm not OK with symbolism that's meaningless, and if you're going to show me a gun, you had better fire it. I won't blame an author for using a trope such as Chekov's Gun, but Shaggy Dog stories are awful for me. That's really how I feel about Kaladin and Shallan. It's so clear that there's something there. It a freaking gun, and I'm waiting for it to go off. If it turns out it's not a gun but a dog, I'll be very disappointed. At the risk of sounding like Ducky, yep yep yep! There seem to be some very strong opinions about what is and is not OK for Brandon to do, and Shallan + Kaladin seems to be #1 NO for reasons I can't fathom. There's a visceral distaste for it that baffles me.

Yeah, I think it's an example of middle-book syndrome. Book 2 of 3 (or 3 of 5 in this case) is always a hard one to write. Nothing new can really be introduced, and nothing old can really be settled, but stuff needs to happen in the time between introducing the problem and solving the problem. Given what was said about Kaladin's book 2 story being pushed into book 3 makes me think his book 3 story may have gotten pushed into book 4, or at least the parts relevant to this thread. As for Adolin, I interpret those WoB as saying that this thing is Adolin's characterization. He's not a main character, so he's not going to get a lot of screentime and we're not going to get inside his head as much, but there's got to be something that makes Adolin special and not just Prince Arthur. In this case, it's his trouble in relationships. On a tangent, did we ever get a confirmed explanation of who is what in the outline? I wrote up a whole lot and then decided to make my own topic.

Did we ever get an explanation of who is what on this chart? I've tried to match it up but I'm not certain who is who. Let me go through what I think. Flashbacks is clearly Dalinar, as is Primary Main Character. Secondary Main Character 1 is Kaladin, as he isn't in Part Two, and Secondary Main Character 2 is Shallan because she is. Tertiary Character 1 is probably Adolin, but I'm not sure. Tertiary Character 2 is only in Part 3 and the ending. Who matches that? Lift? But she hardly does anything! Part 3 is mostly A/S/K in Kholinar and Dalinar doing his stuff, so Adolin is the only one not already accounted for, but he can't be Tertiary #1 and #2. Tertiary Character 3 is Jasnah, I think. She's got a few PoV chapters in this part. Could also be Moash, but I think he's covered in Bridge 4 and the Novelette #2, which crops up at the end. Jasnah also appears at the end, which doesn't match the outline, but it's not as a PoV. Tertiary Character 4 is Szeth. He gets his first few PoV chapters here, and comes back at the end. Novelette 1 is Venli. Novelette 2 is Bridge Four. Short Story Collection is all the Interludes that aren't Venli. Frankly, I'm not confident in these (except Szeth, I think that's most obvious besides Dalinar). So Shallan is Secondary #2, but she doesn't get anything in Part 4 even though she's right there with Adolin and Kaladin and even gets some PoV chapters. Who are the tertiary characters? I'm only confident of Szeth here, but I think Moash, Jasnah, and Adolin are the other three, but I can't tell which is which. Moash is probably lumped into Novelette #2, Bridge 4, which I think is the significance of the Novelette #2 reappearing at the end. Let me know if I'm missing something, or if you have an alternate explanation. This has been bugging me for a while now.

This drives me nuts, too. The entire first book we only learn three things about Adolin: he's loyal to his father and family, he's a good soldier and a better duelist, and he can't keep a woman interested if his life depends on it. It's a constant theme, and he even goes through several women on the way. Where did that go? What happened to that Adolin? He's just as rich, powerful, and high-status as ever, so that hasn't changed. He's still as handsome and charming as always. There's been no serious changes to his attractiveness to the other sex, or to his method of dealing with them. So where the hell is the Adolin that drives women away? Why are we only ever told about him but we never see him? We get one scene where he turns a date into an excuse to investigate the cut strap, and that's about it for Adolin the womanizer. It seems like it was just a quick prop for book one, and now that we're past that it doesn't matter anymore so this aspect of his character is discarded. I expected some conflict between Shallan and Adolin over his checkered dating past, because why else would you give him a checkered dating past? I expected some conflict between Shallan and Adolin at all, because there doesn't seem to be any conflict between any of these characters. All of the conflict is self-contained in each of them, and while that's a nice style for some thing, it left this particular arrangement lacking.

This is my favorite dead horse to beat, so here goes. Shallan, as a Lightweaver, is in the absolute best position to break her oaths and renege on her promises. Szeth would never be able to get away with this, nor Dalinar or Kaladin, but the Cryptics are not like other spren. They are more liberal in their interpretation of the 'oaths' and thus Shallan is not bound as tightly as other Radiants might be. From the in-world Words of Radiance: So as long as Shallan is speaking truths as an approach to self-awareness, I don't see why a Crypic would care if she's getting divorced. To Pattern, it would just be another powerful lie. And speaking of powerful lies, what do we know about Shallan and lying? Who warned her about what happens to women who believe their lies? She's been warned that all good con women (which she absolutely still is) meet the same fate: they start to believe their lies and can't jump ship when the time is right. This is what is happening to Shallan; she's starting to believe her own lies. It might take a while for the other shoe to drop, but if she's not ready to get out ahead of time, she'll meet the same fate as Tyn. That, I think, is the surest sign that this marriage will go wrong. Tyn told Shallan what would happen, the advice was disregarded, and now we'll get to see the consequences.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. It feels like everyone expects Brandon to treat marriage very seriously and strictly, which he does, but to ignore divorce is to ignore a very large part of marriage, even if it's a part we don't like. It would be foolish to expect him to never broach this subject, and in fact he already has by bringing up what a taboo it is in Vorin cultures. Now off I go to post this in the new topic I see you posted about.

I was sure of that even after just reading the talker composition... Is it really that one-sided? Yeah, it's about as bad as you can imagine. It's this entire thread, only backwards. I couldn't get through it.

The heart of the passion around this topic is explained by the position in the plot of these relationships. What does it matter if he gets with she? Which he? Why she? If they get together or not, the plot of the apocalypse doesn't really change. Therefore, the choice of what happens reveals the biases and desires of the author. What is happening? What is Brandon trying to accomplish in this? It's not really deep love with another main character. Their purpose in the story is to be Radiants, not lovers. It's a Radiant story, not a love story.