Rainier

This is my favorite dead horse to beat, so here goes. Shallan, as a Lightweaver, is in the absolute best position to break her oaths and renege on her promises. Szeth would never be able to get away with this, nor Dalinar or Kaladin, but the Cryptics are not like other spren. They are more liberal in their interpretation of the 'oaths' and thus Shallan is not bound as tightly as other Radiants might be. From the in-world Words of Radiance: So as long as Shallan is speaking truths as an approach to self-awareness, I don't see why a Crypic would care if she's getting divorced. To Pattern, it would just be another powerful lie. And speaking of powerful lies, what do we know about Shallan and lying? Who warned her about what happens to women who believe their lies? She's been warned that all good con women (which she absolutely still is) meet the same fate: they start to believe their lies and can't jump ship when the time is right. This is what is happening to Shallan; she's starting to believe her own lies. It might take a while for the other shoe to drop, but if she's not ready to get out ahead of time, she'll meet the same fate as Tyn. That, I think, is the surest sign that this marriage will go wrong. Tyn told Shallan what would happen, the advice was disregarded, and now we'll get to see the consequences.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. It feels like everyone expects Brandon to treat marriage very seriously and strictly, which he does, but to ignore divorce is to ignore a very large part of marriage, even if it's a part we don't like. It would be foolish to expect him to never broach this subject, and in fact he already has by bringing up what a taboo it is in Vorin cultures. Now off I go to post this in the new topic I see you posted about.

I was sure of that even after just reading the talker composition... Is it really that one-sided? Yeah, it's about as bad as you can imagine. It's this entire thread, only backwards. I couldn't get through it.

The heart of the passion around this topic is explained by the position in the plot of these relationships. What does it matter if he gets with she? Which he? Why she? If they get together or not, the plot of the apocalypse doesn't really change. Therefore, the choice of what happens reveals the biases and desires of the author. What is happening? What is Brandon trying to accomplish in this? It's not really deep love with another main character. Their purpose in the story is to be Radiants, not lovers. It's a Radiant story, not a love story.

Good summary of this subject, and I agree with most of what you're saying. Radiant is obvious: we were in her head when she deliberately created this persona, so we know what she was thinking. It's definitely the stuff that still makes Shallan face her past, specifically her murders. There's significant discussion to be had on maskShallan (or fakeShallan, or personaShallan, or whatever you like) and what aspects she has, but I think the basis is Shallan choosing to make herself a desirable Vorin bridge for Adolin. I think we can see the genesis of this when she first meets everyone at the Shattered Plains: she makes a Lightweaving to make herself look good, because all her clothes are trashed. I think this was the first point when we see her deliberately make a mask of herself. And then there's Veil. There was a post (I think it was @SLNC?) that delved into Veil's genesis and made an argument that it was much older than the others. Specifically, when she confronts Re-Sephir: So the frenzied child who murdered her mother is the same as the cornered woman who stabbed Tyn through the chest. I'd say it's pretty clear that the "prim, excitable girl" described as "so nice, so sweet" and "diverting or clever" is the maskShallan. Neither is Radiant. I think Veil killed her mother, or the Veil persona got its origin on that night. Veil is the thief, the fighter, the survivalist. But Veil (or this part of Shallan, if it isn't Veil) hates the way maskShallan is thought of and treated. Yes, I agree, and I think that's because it's the oldest fragment of her personality. I've also assigned that frenzied state to Veil, because it doesn't fit either of the other two. It's possible that was "real" Shallan, but as you said, "real" Shallan would be all three. She would be prim and proper, and witty and diverting, and probably doesn't hate herself for it. But a portion does hate the rest of herself, and that portion is Veil. Also, I read one of your tags in Pattern's voice.

This is from a WoB that said at the end of WoR, Shallan was one level ahead of Kaladin. We know which oaths Kaladin's sworn (3), so Shallan must be level 4. No indication what the first two are. Third could be I'm terrified, Fourth could be I'm a murderer, but there's never been solid confirmation on exactly what Shallan's oaths/truths have been.

I'll take exception to this. It isn't because Szeth is self-aware, it's because he's been living like a Skybreaker already for years. Nale straight out tells him it's the fact that he held to his personal code so stringently that brought the Herald's attention.Szeth was perfectly willing to dedicate himself wholly and utterly to a cause, a code, or a person, as he had already demonstrated. That's why he was able to shoot up the ranks, not self-awareness. I'll also note that the other reason Szeth is able to progress so quickly is that he was told the oaths in advance. He knows exactly what to expect, and combined with the years of dedication to following his code, has overwhelmingly proven himself as worthy of the Skybreakers and their spren. Self-awareness is for the Lightweavers, pretty much exclusively, from what I can tell, and it's backed up by the quotes about Malchin. It matters for Shallan, and it matters for Hoid, but it only matters for Kaladin inasmuch as it helps him find the words. The same goes for Dalinar. Neither would be able to find the words in the first place if they didn't have some self-awareness to determine what exactly they are doing, how exactly they are choosing to live, that had attracted the spren and qualified them for Radiance. I don't think it's going to be necessary for future Windrunners to be as self-aware, because Kaladin has blazed that path already. Each Lightweaver, however, needs to demonstrate that individually, because their spren are, as it says, liberal with their interpretation.

I really like this connection. Laral hasn't internalized anything about herself. She hasn't reconsidered her life or position, she hasn't reevaluated some of her preconceived notions, and she still acts like she can do no wrong. She wronged Kaladin but will never admit to it because he's below her. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say Laral is the worst kind of lighteyes, and exactly what Kaladin hates about them as a class. The very fact that she doesn't see how awful she's been and is being is what makes her all the more awful. Putting this in spoilers because it's super stupid:

I really like him too. I like the contrast with Szeth, who thinks he doesn't have a choice but knows he does. Taravangian knows he's evil but continually tries to justify his horrible crimes, just like Szeth. Where Szeth pushes responsibility onto others, Taravangian accepts the responsibility willingly, but justifies it by telling himself it's necessary, and thus even though it's his fault and his choice, it's still better than inaction. I love this paragraph, and I think his conversations with Dalinar show exactly what kind of person he is. Again, he justifies himself however he needs to, which is fascinating, but he's doing it because he wants to help. He's doing it because if he doesn't, humanity is driven from Roshar. Despite his betrayal at the end of OB, I'm with you. I want more Taravangian. I want more scenes of the Diagram. I want more morality lectures with Dalinar. And I want more hints at who is responsible for the Diagram and what the results of it will be.

Yup, this was my read on the scene between Taravangian and Odium. We all know Taravangian doesn't understand the Diagram, so it's not a stretch to think it's him manipulating himself, or rather Cultivation manipulating him through his boon/curse. He's oblivious to the full scope of the Diagram, so I don't know how he could know he's tricking Odium, or if he even believes he's tricking Odium. When we left him, he was bargaining for as much as he could. I don't see that as tricking Odium, rather capitulating and On this thread, I think Taravangian might have been captial-A Ascended during that day. What is the Diagram if not a giant cultivation? Prune here at this day, then let it grow, then prune back and construct a scaffold, and it will grow thusly, and then..... He held Culitvation's power for a day, and the result is the Diagram, which is cultivating him as much as anyone else. We know that the Diagram is about as anti-radiant as possible (Destination before Journey), so maybe it's all pointing towards the one moment when a second Bondsmith is needed, as the purpose of the Diagram is to bring Taravangian to the point where it can be him. This would have to be after the absolute failure of the Diagram, for him to see that his work has been in vain, in order for him to internalize the Knight's oath.

Here's what my best guess at his 5th ideal will be: Who knows how or why, but we know he was around for the Shattering, and this is basically a guess that he's lived to regret his complicity. No, the spren has to accept them, too. I guarantee it won't be the same as other Knights Radiant, but exactly how it will be different remains to be seen. And as strong, powerful, and intelligent as he is, I bet Hoid is still lying to himself about some things. Maybe the spren can sense the lies he tells about himself, and is waiting for him to reveal those lies? Then whatever attracted the spren in the first place would need to be resolved, but things that are already resolved wouldn't have attracted the spren. Or maybe he'll get stuck at level 3 or 4 having used more 'typical' secrets/truths that only he would know, but aren't about himself. And the spren won't accept impersonal truths for further advancement.

I'm right there with you. Laral gets a lot of defenders because her situation isn't great, but I'm not really willing to give her much credit because she succumbs to her situation rather than mastering it. I like how you singled out really Laral's only redeeming feature: her resilience. And she's absolutely resilient. She lost her father, the new citylord severed her connection with Kal, her 'betrothed', and then she lost her new betrothed and was forced to marry a man her father's age. She was left in Hearthstone with no family, few friend, and in a marriage of convenience but never love. She holds together remarkably well and seems to earn her role as citylord's wife. However she never really changes through the course of what we've seen of her. She's still the same lighteyed girl who turned on Kaladin in the kitchen, and the respect of her hosuehold servants doesn't change that. I will confess to being a Laral-hater. I didn't like how she treated Kal when they met after Roshone came but before his son died. I think it revealed more of herself than any other scene. She let her childhood friend get bullied and demeaned, and participated in it willingly in order to fit in with her new boy. She was perfectly willing to bend propriety when just around Kaladin, but can't stand to be seen with him otherwise. As for your questions, I think Syl is picking up on what Kaladin thinks and feels with Laral. She senses his attraction and desire, but also recognizes his reticence as a defensive mechanism that she's trying to break down. This wasn't the first nor the last time she's pushed him towards some woman or another. I think it's just Syl doing what she's always done and trying to encourage Kal to be happy in the best way she knows how. As for Brandon, that's a bit of a mystery. I'd guess that it was put there to make us feel more sympathetic towards Laral, which in my case has failed miserably. I'd attribute it to Brandon not wanting to make Laral into a scapegoat for Kal's troubles and to show the reader that we should also not make Laral into a scapegoat. Again, for me, this didn't work. Yes, one day, and then the next day Shallan will reconcile her personalities, and the day after Adolin will revive Mayalaran, and by the end of the week Dalinar will have united the princes, kingdoms, peoples, splinters, realms, and shards, and worlds. I'd love to see that day come, and I know it's coming, but oh man there's no reason it has to be soon. I'm generally going to agree. There might be some Laral cameos, and there's not much point in giving Kaladin a little brother if we're not going to see more of his family so she might be there, but I don't see any more scenes between Kaladin and Laral that are deeper than what we got this book. If we do see her again, I'd expect another frosty confrontation with Kaladin, maybe with some regret for the past mixed in this time, but no declarations of love and no significant contributions to the plot.

I really like this distinction, and since we absolutely know that Radiant was made in OB, and we know she at least christened Veil in WoR, it makes sense that Veil comes before Radiant. However, if I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that Veil predates what can be called personaShallan (or maskShallan, or wifeShallan, or betrothedShallan, or whatever it is she's showing to Adolin). That would be significant, but I think it's correct considering that this personality was there at least as far back as her mother's death. So Veil is the part of her that's a frenzied child, or a cornered woman. Radiant is the part of her that can stand to hold the sword without breaking, and is also Shallan wishing she was Jasnah. And what's left? Prim, proper Vorin girl ready with a quip.

Strange request, but I'll bite. Lord knows I've spent enough time setting musical songs to Stormlight settings, of which I'm inordinately proud. Feel free to either PM or @ me and I'll lend a hand. Also, here's to @Ailvara, which I've totally been reading as Alivara right up until I had to spell it. You've put together a great resource, and it looks great.

Thank you! I was searching through Phantom songs to find one that would fit, and the precious little ingenue having her big personal moment in song was too perfect to pass up. Next up is going to be Past the Point of No Return, which will be a duet between Dalinar and Eshonai as the Everstorm is summoned (talk about past the point of no return!). And then maybe Odium singing Music of the Night as he tries to seduce Dalinar. And don't forget Phantom of Urithiru is the same number of syllables as Phantom of the Opera... I'm having way too much fun in this thread.

See, you're thinking of Laral as the woman she seemed to be in our brief time with her in Oathbringer. I haven't forgiven her for how she treated Kaladin after her father died, specifically when she and Roshone the younger find Kaladin in the kitchens and she treats him like rust. That scene showed me what kind of person Laral is, and it's not the kind of person I want for Kaladin. I can see forgiving her for this, I just don't. To me it showed exactly how fickle her favor was, and I don't see any reason to think it's different now. What's changed is not how fickle she is, but their two situations. Right, she's basically destitute and the life she's lived hasn't met her expectations. Kaladin, on the other hand, had his life torn apart by her husband, endured the worst the world could offer, and came out of it somehow stronger, better, and now with wealth and status. Of course Laral is going to want to get back with Kaladin: her other options suck. But that just means she's exactly as selfish as I consider her.

One more, this time from Phantom of the Opera. Setting is when Shallan is confronting her own lies with Wit in Kholinar and regretting her childhood and general brokenness. I may have left a few lines untouched, but that's only because they fit so well (why can't the past just die?).

Are you sure about this? I figure he of all people would see through the masks, especially since he visited her when she was a child. I also thought that was the point of the two pictures of Shallan. Hoid noticed her conflicting personalities and showed her two aspects of herself: the craven, broken, cowardly girl and the confident, self-assured, radiant woman. He's taking different parts of her, parts that she might not even compartmentalize, and showing them to her so she can see herself from the outside. Generally I'm going to assume that Hoid knows what's happening, or at least knows better than any other character we've met.

So not to rain on any parade. But considering the relationships in this book with Dalinar marrying his dead brothers wife, Sabariel and Palona not being married, and a gay romance I dont think Divorce is out of the question. Not saying that is my prediction or that is what I want (it isn't), But Shallan is crazy and Brandon does like to have a full collection of situations it seems. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, and I've said that I've said it before and will say it again before, but Shallan is a member of the one order or Knights that values oaths less than self-awareness and speaking truths. Therefore if anyone were to be breaking oaths and still have it fit, it would be a Lightweaver. The Cryptics are the spren least concerned with oaths, and most concerned with truth and lies, self awareness and self deception. A marriage of self deception would have to fail for a Lightweaver to attain full self awareness. Please, anything but this. Laral is literally the worst kind of lighteyes and the epitome of everything Kaladin says he hates about them and their social hierarchy. I'd rather he end up with the shameless fan insert character (Lyn). I'd rather he end up with Syl in some sort of weird spren-incest that's taboo to the other Radiants. I'd rather he loses his penis in a freak stormlight accident and has to come to terms with living life as a eunuch. Just please don't give me Kaladin and Laral.

Given that we've seen Azure/Vivenna, and that Nightblood is currently in the possession of someone who will be hanging around Urithiru, I'm expecting more Vasher. I can't wait to see him reunite with Nightblood and start interacting with the new Radiants. After all, he's just as heavily invested as any of them, and far older and more knowledgeable. There's all kinds of things he could do.

Not yellow, gold. As in metallic and shiny. It's special hair, somehow, and the only other special hair we've seen is from Nalthis when you're the descendant of one of the Returned. Given the connections between Iri and Nalthis, I think the special hair is significant.

This is great, but you left out something that I thought would certainly be included if you're already speculating that the Iriali have some connection to Nalthis. The golden (not blonde) Iriali hair is related to the Royal Locks. Why else would they have golden hair? Why else would that hair be mentioned time and again, as breeding true or not? If there's any connection between the Iriali and Nalthis based on idioms and language, then there's a connection between the golden hair and the Royal Locks.

I agree, I want Kaladin to have a real romantic relationship with a real woman. I'm OK with him going with Syl for emotional support and companionship, which he's already been doing. What I'm not OK is for that to be all there is, or for their relationship to grow to somehow and prevent him from forming real bonds with real people, or will prevent him from caring for someone who can die.

Yes, mostly. There are various magics in the Cosmere, and they are all, to one extent or another, 'holy.' It's the best word I can find that expresses the taboo I'm feeling, like to treat a spren the way you treat a woman is to miss the distinctions between the regular mortals (with whom you pursue romantic interests) and the divine figures. You mention a relationship between a human and an angel, and I'm thinking I wouldn't really have these kinds of reservations. Angels (generic, of course) are mostly humanoid, whereas spren are ideas. They are living thoughts, given shape and purpose by the thoughts of mortal men. I suppose I wouldn't much care because I don't much care for Christian ideology, so maybe the difference is that I've bought into the Knights Radiant/Heralds/Desolations religion, and in taking it seriously I reserve some gravitas for the spren that is missing among others. But imagine for a moment that Kaladin falls in love with Syl and comes to Rock for advice, as he is the only one who could see her and has always seemed to know more than he lets on. What do you think Rock would say? He's a character that treats them as gods, as I am. Maybe I'm just a horneating prude.

Almost. It's that they aren't independent of one another, and never could have been. Theoretically two people are independent actors and can make their own choices, while in reality people are forced into their circumstances. However Syl and Kaladin are in no way independent of one another, never could have been and never will be. I wouldn't call it parent/child either, as that isn't right. It's closer to parasite/host than parent/child. Syl can't live without Kaladin, so she's a parasite. Kaladin can get rid of her (through breaking oaths), but while he's the host they can explore their symbiosis. So it's less like man/horse and more like man/tapeworm, if the tapeworm was a fragment of god who gives a fragment of godlike powers This is quick summation of my feelings, too. To me, when framing the discussion as a relationship, or referring to a couple as a portmanteau of their names, there's an implication of physical love. And just like that we're into realmatic theory. In those terms, I'm looking for love across all three realms. I'd say Syl and Kaladin have love in only one of these three realms: spiritual. This is the most ephemeral and open to interpretation, but it illustrates what I think this partnership is lacking, and that's fulfillment across all three realms.