Rainier

Just to throw more confusion into the mix, there are no darkeyes in Azir because they don't consider eye color to be relevant. It's really only Vorin cultures who make the distinction on eye color. So this could reasonably be interpreted as, "One of Hesina's parents came from a non-Vorin culture." This could be a culture on another planet, but it doesn't need to be.

Yeah, the point is to treat time as the same as space, so you, all of you, are the path you take through time, not just your physical presence at one moment in time. You in the past is the same as you in the future, it's all the same you. So when Syl says she knows Shallan before they meet, or Kaladin before he was a slave, what she's saying is that in the spiritual realm they've already met, or that already doesn't really have meaning. They are going to meet, so they have met, which means that they've always met. This gets into problems with free will, if you believe in that sort of thing, but it's my conception. But really, I can't help but thinking of Sisko in the premier of Deep Space 9 talking to the Prophets/wormhole aliens. They bring him back to when his wife died, and ask, "Why are you here?" They recognize that everything that has happened or will happen is all the same, so Sisko is still there, because he's always been there, because every moment of your life is still there, frozen in time like a single frame in a movie reel. So Syl had always met Kaladin, and she's there with him in the cage, in the chasms, on the Tower, and everything we haven't seen yet, all at the same time, or that 'same time' doesn't really apply. It IS, not was or will be.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine@RShara@Calderis The real crux of this WoB, and the distinction to make, is that even though Aimians and such were created by Adonalsium, after the splintering they would have been affected by the shards just as other life forms have been. Thus, even though the Aimians were created by Adonalsium, they've still been affected by Cultivation (or Honor, or Odium, or make your case). So what @hoiditthroughthegrapevineis saying, to me, is that even though Aimians predate any singular Shard, as they predate the shattering, they've still been susceptible to the influence of the shards, and in this case Cultivation specifically. Not to be too blunt, but you're talking like a mathematician. That's not quite an insult, but it definitely isn't a compliment. I think I understand you, and I say mathematician our of experience, but one of the greatest gifts is to translate the abstract to the colloquial. It's clear throughout this post. Also, have you read Vernor Vinge? I hope so, as he's a mathematician and explores topics such as distributed or networked intelligence and surveillance, in the context of generally distributed computing. I'm not sure that the Dysians are an outlier. Until we see otherwise, I'm inclined to attribute every single speck of investiture to one of the 16 shards. Until specifically told otherwise, I don't think Investiture can exist except under their influence or as one of the splinters thereof. So while I agree that they are distinct, and sentient, and embodiments of investiture, I'm not sure you've made the case for them being uniquely distinct from spren, or Returned, or any of the other magic systems we've seen that are wholly dependent on (1 fo 16) Shardic investiture.

I'm pretty sure that inaudible time and space comment was me talking from the line behind the questioner. My take is that where the physical realm has length/width/depth/time across four dimensions, the spiritual realm smashes all of this together. It's as if the spiritual realm is only Tralfamadorians, or wormhole aliens from DS9, or some other entity that experiences time as if it were space. My point is, what I hear when I hear the spiritual realm is where time and space is one, is that in the spiritual realm, everything that has happened and will happened is arranged as if it were left to right. So Syl knows Kaladin and Shallan in the spiritual realm because there it's as if she's standing next to them, instead of she has yet to meet them. Does this make sense? Any Vonnegut or DS9 fans about? P.S. Sisko is #1 Star Trek captain fite me

Honestly? If it had to be one single scene, it would have to be the battle at the Tower. Otherwise the double-eye symbol is probably the most appropriate.

Sure thing: #48 Although I was mistaken, Warbreaker is a Type I awakened object, not Type II. #49 #84 That one appeared to be linked properly, somehow. As a native, and a pedant, I feel compelled to correct this common misconception. The market is on Pike Place, which is attached to Pike Street. Thus the market is the Pike Place Market. No possessive.

Just looking through these, and thought I'd take credit for mine. I was the Questioner for #48, #49, and #84 During the after-con event I also asked about the painting in Celebrant and if it was the same as the painting that Lightsong sees in Warbreaker. I got some suspicious hemming and hawing, so the similarity or distinctiveness of the painting is significant.

I'm with you here. I didn't find it very believable that nobody cares about homosexuality when the gender roles are so rigid. At the very least, I would expect Drehy to still marry a woman, regardless of who he has sex with. After all, who is going to read for him? Who is going to look after his interests when he cannot look after his own? The Alethi institution of marriage has very little to do with love. Sex seems to be important only because it produces children. Obviously people still feel the same feelings they always have, and love and romance are absolutely a part of it, but given that literacy is determined by gender, marriage is more about being one half of a whole, and men and women are not compatible in those roles. Of course, one of the themes of the book is how boundaries are breaking in the face of the apocalypse, so of course I expect these things, but still, it didn't feel realistic. If I'm being honest, it felt most like Brandon felt the criticism of not including gay characters, so he picked a character and made him the token. It just so happens to be Drehy, but frankly it could have been Teft, Skar, Lopen, or anyone else and it would have felt the same: Brandon checking a box on the diversity checklist. Exactly, which makes it even more confusing. Like I said above, I'd have been more understanding if Drehy and Dru were sexual partners who each had a wife, as that would strike me as more reasonable given the strictness of the gender roles. After all, to the Greeks, even though they didn't consider themselves gay as we do, they still demeaned the person in the woman's role, that is, the one being penetrated. They were so misogynistic that being accused of cunnilingus was the ultimate insult: you're such a woman that you give women pleasure! None of that fits with Drehy being more manly because he's dating a man. That's just.....jarring. I pretty much ignored it as bad writing and kept reading, looking for the good bits (the apocalypse, remember?).

Book annotation spoiler:

I did something similar in an older thread. Take a look if you like. I also made the Jezrien/Nergaoul connection.

This is what I'm thinking of. The continent of Roshar doesn't span the globe at all, as is really confined to one hemisphere both North/South and East/West (quartersphere? semihemisphere?). That leaves the vast majority of the word as untamed, unexplored seas. We've already seen the Reshi Isles are actual greatshells, living in what is essentially a sheltered sea, but out in the open oceans there's space enough for truly terrifying creatures of similar size and scope. Given the land/water changes in Shadesmar, I'm curious what an overland expedition through Shadesmar might find, especially in terms of symbiotic spren.

As others have said, the scene in Thaylen City where Dalinar starts listing off orders and identifying people. The fact that our 10 book characters (Eshonai excluded) just so happen to be the same as our 10 founding Radiants (or at least 7 thus far) is all the confirmation I needed. Once we had the 10 people, and we noticed that Ash was the odd one out, it made sense to slot her in as a Releaser, especially given that she's rejected the idealized version of herself that's worshiped and has been compelled to destroy her likeness. I just figured that the two Heralds who seem to like one another, who also happened to be there when Dalinar started counting, will become Radiants like we were shown can happen by Nale. There's a lot of subtle stuff in Sanderson's works, I just didn't think this scene was one of them.

Yup, I'm right there with you. Lightweavers are what the Radiants who mimicked Shalash called themselves. Shalash was not a Lightweaver, and none of the Heralds were Knights Radiant and thus don't merit the descriptor (Nale excluded, of course). So no, Shalash is not a Lightweaver, but I think she's going to become a Releaser, as you said. Similarly, Taln is not a Stoneward (Stonewarden?), but I expect him to become one. I would completely shocked if Ash is in fact Chana, as it doesn't really make any sense. Why would Chana care about Shalash so much? Also, didn't we specifically get confirmation that Ash's father died, you know, Jezrien, Herald, King of Kings? Jezrien was Shalash's father, not Chana's. Of all the things to dispute, this one surprised me.

Thanks, I knew he had the opportunity, but I hadn't seen that quote.

I think Hoid was originally the one supposed to take up Odium and somehow didn't, or chose not to. Now I think he's trying to merge pieces of as many different shards as he can so he can consolidate power without being subject to the Intent of any one shard. I don't think Hoid is all that concerned with reforging Adonalsium in its entirety, I think he just wants his one little piece. As for 'we killed you,' the questions are obvious and the answers numerous. Who's we? Who's you? The original 16 shardholders killing Adonalsium is certainly one possibility, even the most obviously likely, but finding out for sure will take the rest of the series.

I guess the short scene doesn't give us enough to determine if she's fractured or not, but that's beside the point. Afterwards we don't see a fully integrated Shallan, at all, in any scenes. Even when she's a girl she's still staring off into the distance, dissociating and suppressing her memories. She spends her time alternating between the perfect daughter and the subversive sister, donning masks as needed. I'm not sure how you can have both Shallan-with-one-personality and Shallan-using-masks-since-childhood. The masks are the different personalities. She's not possessed, and she's not unaware of her different alters. Just like everyone else, she has certain roles to play in certain circumstances. Unlike everyone else she starts to personify one of those roles when she names it Veil in WoR, but she's been practicing switching back and forth her entire life.

Wait, what integrated Shallan? She creates Veil long before she gets to the Shattered Plains, and while she doesn't start slipping into other names in her internal monologue until Oathbringer, I think it's a stretch to say we've ever seen an integrated Shallan. The earliest glimpse we see of her is immediately after she killed her mother, and everything after that is her fractured personalities responding to her circumstances.

Funny, I never thought that, mainly because of Artur Hawkwing who was much, much, more obviously inspired by Arthurian legend.. Unrelated WoT spoilers

I've had the same thing. I kept telling myself I was going to start my reread any day, but it never came. I've read White Sand and all four Pierce Brown/Red Rising books in the interim, but have been avoiding what I thought would be a no-brainer reread. It actually makes me feel better to know other people are similar. We'll get to that reread eventually. I'm going to ECCC in a month, and I've been thinking of what I want answered. It's either Nightblood's chain of custody or....something....out of this thread. Thanks for the list, I'll keep them in mind.

Where is Wit's flute? What's so special about it? Who has it now? Will Kaladin ever learn how to play the flute? It was lost at the end of TWoK when Kaladin left it in Sadeas' camp. Amaram never mentions it, Ialai never mentions it, but Wit seems unworried about it.

I'd say spren are neither alive nor dead. Spren do not exist like mortals on the physical realm, but their existence is based on their sentience rather than their body. So yes, Maya lost her sentience along with the rest of the spren at the Recreance. And yes, she's slowing regaining some form of sentience, just like we saw with Syl and Kaladin. Obviously she's broken/wounded in a way that Syl isn't, or wasn't when Kal broke his oaths, but I would absolutely expect more from the pair of them in book 4. Maybe not full-on revival that turns Adolin into an Edgedancer, but I wouldn't be surprised if Maya had some lines in the next book.

I'm not saying it's fine, I'm saying it's going to be necessary. Pattern is dying and Shallan is killing him with her lies. If she's lying to herself, she's still killing him. If she's lying to herself about her marriage or her relationship to Adolin, it comes down to the spren vs the marriage. That was my point: this isn't about human interactions, it's about her growth as a Radiant and her need to be self-aware. Anything that's a threat to her self-awareness is a threat to Pattern. While I don't necessarily expect them to divorce, I recognize that relying on oaths and cultural perception isn't going to cut it, and is in fact rather meaningless compared to her spren and her true nature. Any time someone says that Shallan won't divorce because she swore an oath, I'm compelled to point out that oaths don't matter to her like they matter to Kaladin, even when she means them. For Kaladin it means the breaking of his bond with Syl. For Shallan it's just words, and should be subordinate to her own quest for self-awareness.

You activated my trap card! Seriously this is one of the least convincing arguments for continuing the marriage because one thing we absolutely know is that Alethi propriety is breaking down in the face of the Desolations. Another thing we absolutely know is that Lightweavers do not swear oaths, they progress to higher levels of self-awareness. These two things together means that if Shallan has to divorce Adolin to save Pattern, nobody (among our main characters) will think twice. Shallan already has a built-in out waiting for her, she just has to be self-aware enough to use it. I've said it before elsewhere, but divorce is very much on the table, and neither Alethi propriety nor the oaths of the Nahel bond are good arguments against it. If anything we should expect Shallan to break oaths if for no other reason than to remind us that her order is not an order of oaths, but of truths.

I love arguing semantics, so I'll just say that I was using it exactly as I meant it: The way I see the word being used: it's a insinuation that is likely to damage their representation. It's not exactly a compliment to call someone a shipper. Back to arguing semantics, which I appreciate and really was the point of my first post. I wanted to highlight a distinction I see in the way the word is used. I admit my own bias, but the distinction is one of evidence and wishful thinking. The less of the former and the more of the latter, the closer you are to earning the slur of shipper.

Right, because people were rooting for Mulder and Scully to get in a relationship despite no evidence that they would, or were interested. They would then imagine what their relationship would be like. It's closer to fan-fiction than anything else, which can be another dirty word to some people. That's the "slur" I was referring to. I wouldn't call it shipping until you're creating new, non-canonical content, specifically making stuff up about a relationship that doesn't exist in the primary medium. It's the difference between the creator's initiative and the fandom's initiative, or at least that's how I've understood it, and that's the distinction I was trying to make. I hope that the distinction still holds: when the fans are creating stuff out of whole cloth, it's fan-fic, whether it's about a character's relationship or the mechanics of the world. It's not about getting heated, it's about inserting yourself into the narrative and ultimately creating a narrative for yourself where none existed before.