wotbibliophile

This sounds so good. If this had happened in the book, I think I could have been more accepting. The thing is, Shallan completely refuses to look at her feelings for Kaladin. She lies outright to Adolin that she does not have feelings for Kaladin, but that Veil does. Like you @Calderis I think all of Shallan's feelings as Shallan, Veil, and Radiant are real and belong to Shallan. Shallan is the one lost in a delusion that these feelings and people are separate. Worst of all Adolin buys it. Adolin believes Shallan's lies. I agree with this. I very much want Shallan's triumphs to be Shallan's and not shared out with Kaladin or Adolin.

@king of nowhere It is perfectly reasonable that an adrenaline rush leads to a crush and in time that crush wanes. I was disappointed that it was never addressed. Syl strongly encourages Kaladin to pursue Shallan and he protests that she is engaged. Shallan reminds herself that she is engaged and she and Kaladin never have a conversation. The whole crush seemed hidden, brushed over, and most of all unresolved. I personally did not find it satisfying that Sanderson ended OB with Shallan and Adolin's marriage. It left me with the impression that the whole thing was never going to be addressed at all. I guess like @The Harlem Worldhoppers I think my emotional investment was wasted and worthless.

@galendo I agree the boots scene was out of character for both of them. I think of Sanderson's humor as hit and miss. So I think this scene was supposed to be funny and for me was just a big miss. However, I 100% loved the chasm sequence. I have wanted to see radiants interacting since the first book and I still think that chasm scene is the only time we get that in any of the three books. I wanted conversation, emotion, honesty and that chasm scene delivered. Granted they still didn't admit to each other that they were surgebinders and that was frustrating, but the whole moving from disdain to respect aspect made it worth it. By the end of WOR I thought Shallan could end up with Adolin or Kaladin. I wanted to see it done well. In WOR, I thought Shallan and Adolin were cute together, but I preferred Shallan and Kaladin. I still thought Shallan and Adolin could be good together if their relationship had more depth. I agree with @Andy92 that they never seemed to get beyond flirty. Also, Shallan had a constant refrain of needing to manipulate Adolin and I never thought that was a good foundation for a relationship. I expected if they were to get together that Shallan would have to show she trusted Adolin and stop manipulating him. Telling Adolin about Veil and Radiant was a good thing and was the first time their relationship had any depth at all. But I saw this as a step in the right direction not a "and now its time to get married."

I have had this thought as well. Shallan did so little to address her actual issues that I have to think that is something that is still forthcoming. I also think it will take some kind of disaster for Shallan to finally want to address her issues. The biggest issue being her mother.

@The Harlem Worldhoppers Thanks for sharing. I love to read thoughts on this subject. I actually disagree that Kaladin is not in the right place mentally for a relationship. I side with Syl. Syl is very pushy to get Kaladin in a relationship right away. I think of Kaladin as very mature, supportive, and compassionate. I think he would make a great partner. @IntentAwesome Kaladin and Adolin remaining friends is a priority for me, too. I think their relationship is safe. Both seem willing to work to keep their relationship strong. I strongly agree with this. This is one of the main reasons I voted extremely dissatisfied. Shallan lies all the time about everything. I do not trust her at all. I believe she shows Adolin a false face. That has been repeated multiple times in her POV. That I am willing to believe. I also believe Shallan is really crazy. I cannot believe she is in the right place mentally for a relationship. I have seen great progress in Kaladin dealing with his depression. Recognizing when he is in a downward spiral and working to get out of it. Contrast with Shallan who is much worse off mentally in OB than in WOR and is working hard at not working on her mental issues. One example of Shallan's crazy (and something that drives me up the wall). Shallan can somehow say with a straight face that she does not have feelings for Kaladin, but that Veil does. This is when she is being "honest" with Adolin. Veil is not real. There is no Veil. But for some reason Shallan thinks it is time to get married while simultaneously pretending she is an imaginary person and pretending this pretend person has pretend feelings for another man. She's crazy. In what universe is this a satisfying romantic conclusion? I say conclusion because I do believe Sanderson meant for this to be the conclusion of the triangle arc, but I did not find it at all satisfying. I am extremely frustrated at all of Shallan's lies and purposeful omissions and manipulations that for some reason should add up to a healthy relationship.

I would like to know your reasoning. I think Jasnah might not be heterosexual. I like seeing her single and I think she likes being single. Kaladin is definitely heterosexual and I think he will definitely end up in a relationship. I think it would be good for him. Syl is my reason for thinking this. I am not sure if Kaladin likes Jasnah (romantically or not) but I do think Jasnah likes Kaladin (not romantically).

This conversation was making me very uncomfortable. I was very relieved that @ROSHtaFARian2.0 brought up the points I wanted to bring up. Especially the point that doing nothing but still benefiting from the systematic oppression of others does make you at fault and deserving of resentment, criticism, etc. I disagree. This might describe Kaladin in WOK and WOR, but he is very different by OB. Anyway, I believe feelings only matter so much. Actions matter much more. I believe Kaladin is in the right. He has every right to his feelings and he is responsible for his actions. If his feelings lead him to poor actions then it is his actions that put him in the wrong, not his feelings. Look at his actions. End of WOK the tower. End of WOR still willing to protect even if he feels hatred. Kaladin is in the right because he actions matter so much more than his feelings.

Buy Lift will try it and it will become the only food she refuses to eat.

Buy and Sell. I buy Sebarial=Slughorn and Adolin=Victor Krum but sell Szeth=Snape. Shallan is married to Adolin. Meanwhile, Radiant attempts to get nekkid with Jasnah, and Veil attempts to get nekkid with Kaladin. Both Radiant and Veil fail. Shallan remains married to Adolin.

I thought this was really strange until I remembered Shallan goes to wildly elaborate lengths to claim she is being truthful. A few instances come to mind. In WOR, when she is drawing people and seems to transform them. She says something like if you changed this person's history, if you changed all the choices they made, if you had a totally different person then this would be the truth. "it wasn't a lie, it was a different truth." This makes me think of "alternative facts." I think this is when she drew herself. Another time is when she is on her date with Adolin she is interested in going out on the shattered plains to research Urithiru but she makes out that she is interested in the chasmfiends and says to herself that it really was interesting so she wasn't lying. In OB, when Jasnah tries to get Shallan to open up, Shallan thinks to herself that really it is Veil who is involved with the Ghostbloods, not her, so she doesn't have anything to confess to. Shallan mixes lies and truth and so long as there is some truth to what she says she is satisfied that she is being truthful. The line "she hated being duplicitous" is in line with other things she says; a mix of lies and truth that ultimately has the flavor of a lie. Notice that when she can't claim there is any truth in what she says, when even she acknowledges she is lying, she feels guilty. @Alderant I love your highly detailed analysis.

I agree that the premise is weak, but this falls under the rule of cool for me. The Shadesmar section was cool enough for me to wave away their reason for being there and to wave away the way it did not advance the plot.

I agree with almost everything in the original post. I like OB the least of the SA books. I like WOK most, then WOR, then OB. Like @IronBars I hope this trend does not continue. I would be very surprised and disappointed, if I ended up disliking SA so much that I dropped it. A couple points I disagree with from the original post. I did like the Shadesmar section. I really like the spren more than almost all the other characters so I loved that they interacted with spren. I thought it was strange that Syl and Pattern were so absent from a section where they were fully manifested, but I still really liked it. I could have read a lot more about Shadesmar, Syl, and Pattern even if it did not move the story forward. I liked every part with Kaladin in it. I could have read a whole book of just him and bridge 4. Other than maybe wanting more Kaladin, I thought he was just right in OB. I agree. I think of Shallan as a dumb smart person or a smart dumb person. She is very intelligent in some ways and very stupid in other ways. Some of this is her upbringing. She is ignorant, which is not the same as stupid, but some of it is just that she is dumb. I agree with @IronBars that Shallan has not progressed, she has regressed. I agree with these two points. I am left very confused by Shallan. I do not trust Shallan at all.

@Mage of Lirigon I like all of the spren more than almost all the human characters and I like the listeners/singers more than almost all the human characters. I like that they think differently than humans and that they live by different rules. I want to learn more about them. I find it really interesting. I have preferences in what I want to read, but I still enjoy other things. I want to read about Rlain more than Rock, but that’s just a little preference. I like reading about Rock. I want to read about Maya more than Adolin, but Adolin is the reason Maya might be revived. Reading about Adolin maybe reviving Maya would be enjoyable. Adolin is the reason Maya can speak or move. I like him even more for reviving Maya a tiny bit. @maxal I have different standards for children than adults. I have different standards for civilians than soldiers. You may see it differently. I can disregard Dalinar all day long. Kaladin was a slave, not a soldier when he saved Bridge 4. His job as a bridgeman was to die. There were other former soldiers among the bridgemen. Everyone had given up, everyone was apathetic. Kaladin was the exception. It was not his job to save Bridge 4. No one wanted him to do it, no one believed there was any good in saving bridgemen, many of whom were criminals. Kaladin saved them anyway. Adolin is a soldier and a shardbearer. I do think it was his job to defend the city and as soon as someone more able (Renarin) was there to fight the thunderclast, he went on to defend another part of the city. This time fighting against people he could defeat. @Mage of Lirigon I agree with this. I agree. Well if not Shallan or Adolin then Jasnah. I love Syl, but I'm pretty sure they're just friends. ETA: It has been said on these forums that if we guess everything we can't be wrong!

I do not see this as the same narrative. Adolin is an adult and a soldier. I expect him to risk his own life for a child. I would not think well of any soldier who would not risk their life for a child. Lift is a child. I do not expect her to risk her life for an adult (or a much older child). You could even say Gawx was not her business. Her business was her own survival; that is right for a child. Adolin's business was to protect the citizens of the city. I don't have any problem with Adolin possibly becoming an Edgedancer. I do think he is a caring man. I don't want him to die. I want to see Maya revived. I like Maya a lot more than I like Adolin. (I do like Adolin.)

I strongly disagree that Shallan was stable enough to make this choice. OB convinced me Shallan is insane. She cannot keep track of reality. There is a WOB that she can't keep track of what is real and that is how I see her. Even what you wrote here is sort of supportive. 3 masks. 2 masks chose Kaladin. Shallan had to suppress Veil/Radiant and we had been lead to believe suppression was bad for Shallan. I don't know that I believe Veil is more real than Shallan, but there are things about her that are part of real Shallan. Her affinity for theft and spying, her strong observational skills, her feelings for Kaladin. These are things Shallan has put on Veil, but are still an important part of her. Then there is the moment when she touched the unmade in Urithiru. There is a part of her that despises her Shallan mask (not wanting to be called nice or clever or diverting etc). I'm pretty sure those are descriptions for Shallan not Veil or Radiant. Because all 3 masks were not in agreement I do not trust Shallan's choice. @maxal Great post. I like the reminder that WOB does not hold as much weight as what is in the book. I disagree with the WOB saying Shallan loves Adolin and Veil loves Kaladin. From what I read, love is too strong a word for any of the people in the triangle. Even though Shallan says she loves Adolin, I doubt her. 1. Because I believe she hates herself and I don't believe you can love someone romantically when you hate yourself. Shallan is needy, but not giving. 2. She does not appear to trust Adolin. Why does she only tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods after they are married? If she trusts him, why wait? Why have Veil tell him? She uses Veil as an excuse to not tell Jasnah about the Ghostbloods. I assume her relationship with Adolin is stronger than her relationship with Jasnah so she shouldn't need the same excuse of "Veil is the one involved with the Ghostbloods."

@maxal Your interpretation makes sense; it follows logically. For me, POV is the deciding factor so without it I am left guessing. Your interpretation is supported by what is in the book, but there is no Adolin POV for the end of OB so we can’t know. I agree that Adolin can have low self esteem and that he was breaking up with Shallan because he believed she had chosen Kaladin. I am not convinced he loves her. We have quite a bit of Shallan thinking of Adolin in WOR and OB. Adolin thinks about Shallan positively two or three times in WOR. I was fine with that balance. Adolin doesn’t think about Shallan in OB except to decide how she looks in her clothes and that Shallan prefers Kaladin. This is very unbalanced and nothing is going to change it. Aside: Adolin uses Shallan’s drawings of Kaladin as evidence that she prefers Kaladin. I really want to know what her drawings were like. How can just drawing Kaladin mean she likes him? She draws lots of people. @DeployParachute I can follow your logic. I am trying not to think that Shallan/Kaladin will be a thing (I am mostly failing) because I really thought they would be a thing in OB. They hardly even spoke. I was very disappointed and I don’t want to go through the same thing with the next book. Also, nothing will change how unsatisfying OB was for me. As for the similar triangles theory: I thought of something else that might apply to D-N-G and N-D-E and maybe A-S-K. Looking at Dalinar and Evi, I thought that Evi loved Dalinar and Dalinar did not love Evi. We don’t know a lot about Navani and Gavilar, but we know Navani didn’t feel much grief when Gavilar died so I thought, at least by the end of their marriage, Navani did not love Gavilar. I can’t know if Gavilar loved Navani, but I thought there was the implication he was cheating on her. So Gavilar may have loved Navani or they may have had a loveless marriage by the end. Looking at Shallan and Adolin, Shallan says she is in love with Adolin and Adolin has not said he is in love with Shallan. I think Adolin cares for Shallan but is not in love with her. It seems likely that Adolin would have had thoughts about marriage similar to Shallan. That love does not have to be a part of marriage; marriage is about power and alliance. Dalinar never pressured Adolin about marriage so he had more freedom to choose someone he was compatible with, but his ideas about marriage would have come from those around him. His peers would see marriage as a tool.

@maxal I really like your post about Adolin. Thanks for writing it. Not seeing the romance from Adolin's perspective is a part of my dissatisfaction with the romance. Not a big part, but a part. Adolin thinks about Shallan just a little bit in OB. The most Adolin thinks about Shallan is in WOR when he lists the things he likes about her. I assume their relationship has developed since then, so it would have been good to have his thoughts about her updated in OB, especially since the end of OB is their marriage. I also don't think it is a good thing that the little he thinks about Shallan is mostly him concluding she prefers Kaladin to him. I don't understand Adolin's thought process. He goes from breaking up with Shallan to marriage very fast. @Alderant I think we pretty much agree about Shallan and her masks. Just because she puts on a mask doesn't mean their aren't real parts of her fueling certain aspects of her mask. I think her masks show real parts of her, just not the whole picture. Part of the problem in OB is that Shallan thinks she can't be all these things; that she has to be one thing instead of more complex.

Shallan is giving me a headache again. I am just confused. First, I think Veil = Shallan. I never thought Veil or Radiant somehow existed separate from Shallan. They are not real. When I said Veil slipped up I meant that Veil was acting like Shallan's memories were hers. I know Veil has all of Shallan's memories but imaginary Veil imagines she has had a different childhood than Shallan. The mistake in that scene with Vathah was that Veil said she had a shardblade when she was young. She then backtracks and says that was Shallan's childhood not hers. Second, I think of Shallan in WOK and WOR as a mask because Shallan calls it a mask, both in WOR and OB. She is always talking about putting a mask over the pathetic mess she thinks she is and in OB she calls Veil and Shallan equally false. I agree 100% that Shallan was healthier mentally in WOR than she is by the end of OB. In the second quote here, it seems like you are using persona and personality for Veil. Like I said, I am really confused. I feel like you could interpret Shallan and her messed up head space 50 different ways. I said before that I think Shallan has been using masks since she killed her mother. I think she usually uses masks to please other people. In OB, Veil may have been used to please Shallan rather than other people. Shallan used Veil to avoid feeling pain. I agree that Veil and Radiant are not real. ETA: @Awesomness I liked the Last Jedi. I was pleased with the way they subverted expectations. Like @DimChatz I am a fan and I could wave away some of the plot holes. Actually, the Force Awakens (which I liked) had a plot whole that still annoys me a lot more. That death ray thing should only have worked once. After that they could never use it again. I do try to go into a movie with low expectations and that helps my enjoyment. With books I tend to expect a lot more; a lot better story telling. And I expect everything to be significant in a story. I think there should be a reason for every word used in a book. I don't know how Shallan/Adolin can feel resolved, even though they are married, when Veil is still around, still out of Shallan's control, still interested in Kaladin, and Shallan lied about being interested in Kaladin.

I'm not sure I agree about Veil. I think we see her make Veil in WOR. If you are talking about when Veil says she had her shardblade very young and her memories are confused, I thought that was just a slip up on Veil's part. She starts acting like Shallan's memories are hers then she backtracks and pretends they have nothing to do with her and they are only Shallan's problem. Then Pattern is concerned because that is not right. I do think Shallan has been using masks since she killed her mother. The prim, perfect daughter was a mask. I think it is pretty clear that the cheerful, scholarly Shallan is a mask over her full self. When she confronts the unmade in Urithiru we see more of her real self.

Shallan really does not think about Kaladin (or Adolin). Radiant's comment that they had been debating between Adolin/Kaladin for months is new information. What is funny is that Shallan only thinks about Kaladin around Adolin. There is the time in WOR when she misses what Adolin says because she is thinking Kaladin is so awesome. Then there is the time in OB when Adolin looks through her sketches and she is relieved he does not see her sketch of Kaladin. Somehow Veil had been leaking through on that one. I really wonder what that means. I don't think it can be that Veil drew the sketch because we know Veil is bad at drawing. If it had been a bad drawing of Kaladin, then why would Shallan be embarrassed? Somehow Shallan drew Kaladin and Veil seeped in enough that the drawing of Kaladin is very flattering or something. What could it be? No shirt? A come hither expression? What? Your last question is a good one. I think the answer is no. We don't see those cutting comments from Shallan's POV. I hadn't thought about it before, but now I am very curious. I don't believe Shallan has negative thoughts about Kaladin (post chasms). @DimChatz Gotcha. That is an interesting quote because Shallan calls her shardblade her sin. The proceeds of her most horrific act. Way back when (WOK) I thought she meant killing her father, but she obviously means killing her mother. I think this supports @SLNC and @Alderant that she will avoid telling her brothers about killing her mother as long as she can. She had some memory of killing her mother and she has never been tempted to tell her brothers what really happened.

This reminds me of when Shallan has to ask Pattern if her brothers are alive. She is afraid she lightweaved her conversations with them and lied to herself that they were fine. This is why I am so against Shallan getting married. She cannot keep track of reality. I know she is supposed to better by the end of OB, but she had zero internal reflection. I don't see why I should believe she is better. There is also the fact that she drew a picture and had no memory of it and that the Ghostbloods want her to interact with the Unmade. I don't see why I should believe she has a firm grasp of reality. I'm being picky even though there is no reason to be. She thinks of using her shardblade after the events in the alley. She berates herself for not thinking of it when she was actually in danger. Yes. This is exactly what I mean. And it is me who thinks only Sanderson's female characters think about sex. Ah see, I liked your post up until here. We didn't really see Veil interact with Kaladin, but we know from ample text that the Veil persona held her attraction to Kaladin. We do, however, see the "Shallan" persona acting with quite a lot of snark and no kindness on several occasions. I agree. It is Shallan who acts like a jerk. Shallan prevented Veil from interacting with Kaladin. I was really hoping to see Veil flirt with Kaladin. I think Veil showed lots of kindness. She was the one concerned with the starving people of Kholinar. She was the one who wanted to help. When was Veil unkind? I don't know for sure, but I think it is Adolin's repeated line that he just wants the real Shallan. He just wants her to be herself. However, I agree with you that what we have actually seen is that Adolin has not helped Shallan's mental health. He is the reason Shallan made Radiant. This was obviously Shallan's choice, but she tried to explain to him that she couldn't practice with a shardblade. I can't blame Adolin for Radiant, but I can blame him for not listening to her concerns. Also, Adolin says he just wants the real Shallan, but actually he is hanging out and drinking with Veil. So he is not actually helping Shallan be herself; he obviously caved. He is going along with what Shallan wants. Shallan is more comfortable being three people. ETA: This is what I think as well. It is why, until OB, I thought Shallan only cared about herself. She is very self-centered. For her age that is normal, for a hero it is problematic.

I reread the summary. Page 5: In favor of the argument that the personas/masks would work against reintegration to keep their independence. There is the line by Veil that it would be easier to get rid of Shallan. I think this shows how little Veil values Shallan and shows how she wants to keep her distance from Shallan. Page 6: I thought this was funny. Why include the line about the wine? If the line had just been “Shallan felt a warmth inside,” wouldn’t anyone assume she was warmed by Adolin’s words? Adding the part about the wine implies some of the warmth she feels is due to the wine. It lessens the sentimentality of the moment. It reminds me of when Shallan returns from the chasms. Adolin is really emotional and heartfelt and Shallan is a little disappointed she didn’t get to tell her joke. It seems like Shallan wants to use humor to keep a little emotional distance from Adolin. Even at the end of OB Shallan is cracking jokes while trying to convince Adolin she prefers him to Kaladin. I think that Shallan has thoughts of love and Adolin never does should be added to the Shallan/Adolin section. Page 7: Someone explain how this is in line with Kaladin at the end of OB saying he never loved her, she just reminded him of someone (i.e. Tien). In this quote he explicitly compares her to Laral and Tarah. How is this not romantic? The part about “something felt right” is what I read in romances about a “One True Love.” Page 13: I hope someone will do a really close read of Set Up to Fail and list every possible thing that could possibly have been set up to fail. I think Shallan/Adolin will still be the most likely thing set up. If I remember right, there is a brief mention of Sebarial, Ialai, and Mraize. But how can the mere mention of their name be called a set up? Page 15: I would really like to see them interacting. They hardly do.

Thanks @Dreamstorm for getting the exact quote on Adolin being a sunrise. I read that when @maxal brought up the Adolin asks Shallan who she becomes quote. I knew some people would dismiss it as just Veil preferring rain so I wanted to make it clear that it has already been established that Shallan really really likes rain. Actually, Shallan's reaction to the highstorm is exactly like her reaction to seeing Kaladin. She dismisses Adolin; she forgets about Adolin when something more interesting is in front of her. Sorry, I am bad at quoting. Remember that part when Veil starts saying Adolin is boring and she prefers Kaladin? What stuck out to me was that Shallan was uncomfortable. In my experience, people are uncomfortable when there is some truth to what they hear. Maybe Shallan doesn't 100% agree with Veil, but some part of Shallan thinks there is some truth to what Veil said and so she is uncomfortable. Shallan isn't indignant or angry or disbelieving. Shallan doesn't jump to Adolin's defense. I think she is uncomfortable because she agrees (a little bit) with Veil and she wishes she didn't. @Alderant Great post. Your point about Shallan reacting to telling Kaladin the truth is one I haven't seen before. Not sure I agree, but a great possibility. Shallan is so inconsistent that I have no idea where her motivation comes from. Shallan's reason for doing this is spectacular. She tells Kaladin he is too memorable. She is gushing. Kaladin has this mask for such a brief time. It is almost like it was just an opportunity for Shallan to say Kaladin stands out. Other possibilities are that it was just a joke or to establish that Kaladin does not like to lie and won't wear a mask which sets up for when he somehow breaks Shallan's illusion covering his scars. This is great. Kaladin really hasn't had opportunities to use maps. I think it does point to Kaladin thinking of Shallan. It could be the map she drew in the chasms that saved their lives and the special map she is able to lightweave in Urithiru. ETA: That is an unfortunate one. Another one is the woman has extremely low self esteem and the only way for her to think better of herself is to be in a relationship with a man. I feel like that is where Shallan is. It is yucky. I agree that romance is not Sanderson's strength. I was thinking about that video of Sanderson talking about romance. He says he intentionally wrote WOK with an immature romance (Shallan/Kabsal) contrasted with a mature one (Dalinar/Navani). I didn't find either relationship to be romantic. Shallan/Kabsal appeared very one sided. Kabsal was interested in Shallan, but Shallan could take him or leave him. A bit of flirting doesn't count as a romance for me. I didn't like Dalinar/Navani because Navani comes on super strong and Dalinar flat out tells her to back off and she doesn't. She doesn't respect his choice and I think that is really wrong. If it had been a man coming on that strong and a woman blatantly told him to back off and he didn't, it would have been even worse. At least Dalinar wasn't physically threatened by Navani.

I do like romance, but I have read a lot of romance that I have really disliked for a lot of the reasons you list. I'll add another. I hate it when a man treats a woman horribly, intentionally hurts her, and the woman is super attracted to him. I'm like "have some self-respect woman. Walk away. You don't need that in your life." One romance I like is Mercy/Adam by Patricia Briggs despite the fact that it has a lot of the predictable elements you list. (The only one that gets on my nerves is Adam's over-protectiveness and he mostly gets over it). One thing I like about it is that both Mercy and Adam like to fight. When they are fighting, they are having fun (they are pretty much flirting). (This is not at all like my personality. I hate conflict). Starla, SLNC, and Dreamstorm responded to the rest of your post. I have just a few small points. I too am wondering what you meant by this. We have the chasm section where Shallan's art saved the day. I don't think Kaladin will ever disrespect Shallan's art. Also, there is that moment where Adolin sees Shallan change on Honor's Path. She sees Kaladin and stands up straight and we think she is transitioning to Veil, but then she says she has to draw that. Drawing is not a Veil trait. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Veil isn't real. Everything Veil does is literally Shallan doing it. And there is the (often brought up) quote by Pattern: Pattern calls Veil, Shallan. She says call me Veil and he says your lies wrap other lies. I think the fact that Veil can't draw is proof that Shallan believes her own lies. Veil never had any training in art therefore Veil can't draw. So Shallan intentionally draws like a child in order to reinforce her own lie. One last thing. There is that quote about Adolin being like a warm sunrise (or is it sunset?) and then Shallan transitions to Veil and admits that sometimes she preferred the rain. Well, I just want to point out that we know Shallan does like the rain. That is in her point of view. And we have seen her become enthralled with the highstorm when she and Adolin are on their date and she sees the highstorm close up. So it's not just Veil who likes rain. ETA: Ok I did have more to say. The hypocrisy of "Kaladin has depression and shouldn't be in a relationship" coupled with "it's great Shallan got married to Adolin" drives me batty! I strongly agree with Dreamstorm here and I strongly believe Shallan is not ready to be married. I also think Kaladin has never acted over-protective of Shallan. I think he has always expected her to handle herself. Maybe it's because at first she wasn't one of his people so he didn't care what happened to her. Later I think it is definitely because he knows she is a surgebinder. Edited again: I have been thinking if a divorce happened it would come from Adolin. I think Shallan is too dependent on Adolin to divorce him and we have seen him try to break up with her already. I really do not know what to expect. I want to see Shallan more honest, but I don't know what the impetus will be for her to do that. She is going to need a shove. I don't see her gradually overcoming her problem. I foresee disaster.

@newimperium I won't tell you to read the book if you do not want to. I will say I read the whole thing and going into it I did not like Dalinar or want to read a book mostly about him. I still don't like Dalinar but there are many many people who were very satisfied with his arc. For me, Dalinar's chapters were better than I expected since we get some interesting information, but I still do not like him.