Wreith

I hadn't thought along the lines of their music being intentional. I was thinking their spren bonding gave them a connection to the Rhythms. So intelligence approaching sapience wouldn't be a necessary requirement. Just a deeper connection to Roshar which a lesser spren might provide resulting in a natural instinct to follow the rhythms.

This bothers me as well. Not so much his characterization throughout as a good and immensely stubborn fellow, but specifically his reaction to Ash saying he'd been alone for thousands of years. What a gift YOU gave them. like his holding out under torture had nothing to do with it. Like that was the only possible outcome if he was the only one. Seems suspicious.

Well, to be clear, no. People snapped before the day mists. The day mist just forced a snapping in people that could have snapped naturally but hadn't yet. I realize you may be referring to this one instance now, but I want to be clear.

That's the source of my own confusion then. OP mention of him going out in WoA combined with a misplaced reference marker in the coppermind. The day mists began when Preservation's power was no longer required to contain Ruin They were responsible for snapping the 1/16 of people to create the atium army. If you check out the annotations, Brandon talks about the day mists causing a sickness because the intended mistings had the potential for power but weren't spiritually broken enough. So the illness was severe enough (possibly combined with the shaming for it afterward) to allow allomancy. the ch 70 annotations for HoA edit: OP answer, he wasn't broken enough spiritually prior to his illness.

There was no additional snapping. That WAS the snap. an Atium misting just wasn't a known thing and Atium is too expensive to just try randomly so no one knew what had happened to them. He did in fact snap in WoA

yeah. This and the back cover of WoK mean he did plan for a delay. It makes me wonder if he actually has any control over the torture though or if the CogShadow Singers are given free rein in that as part of the deal. Like did he give them 2000 years of his own volition thinking he could break Taln quickly or was Taln tortured the full 4500 years Because if the Singers have free rein, then it supports the idea that he couldn't bring any Herald but Taln back because they all broke too quickly.

This is a fact? Do you have a source? I almost posted this as a theory, but I couldn't explain why treating someone with silver dust might still require amputation. I would have expected a complete healing. I also have trouble reconciling the fact that it's described as forcing shades back rather than them recoiling from it. Additionally, I don't think Silver is without a use in allomancy. They just don't know what the use is. Someone correct me if an allomancer gets sick from burning silver somewhere I think silver has some sort of Spirit realm effect that Scadrians simple aren't aware of because Spiritual damage isn't really a thing there like it is on Threnody and Roshar. To this end, I think it's possible we're missing at least 4 metals and that Gold and Electrum are categorized incorrectly. Assuming there's not some WoB that there are only 16 metals.

It's been a while since I read, so maybe you're talking about a different instance that I don't remember, but he DID snap.

This is part of why I proposed that each Oathgate is in fact two Oathgates. One existing as a physical object in the Physical realm the other as a physical object in the Cognitive realm. The other part being the fact that there is a physical construct in the Cognitive realm for our travelers to land on.

I have never heard of Crusader Kings until this thread, but might get it if this mod is available. Are expansions in use?

interesting. I apparently never went back and considered the covers in light of Oathbringer. on a side note, would it kill them to include the back cover in the e-books.

Is there an existing thread for this? I didn't see one, but maybe I didn't look hard enough.

Lunchbreak re-read of the Prelude in WoK Kalak thinks this was one of the worst desolations. Yet 9 of the 10 heralds survived. Does anyone think it's possible that Odium somehow gave orders to his army to avoid killing the Heralds this time? Maybe he brokem them enough to expect they would leave the Pact Taln was still killed. Maybe his penchant for lost causes was too much to avoid. Maybe Odium intentionally wanted time alone to break the only unbroken Herald. Is Ishar just crazy now or could he have broken enough to be in Odium's pocket back then, suggesting that leaving Taln would be enough? Essentially, is it possible the "Last" Desolation was a long con by Odium rather than a fortunate happenstance of the only Herald able to hold being the one to go back

HoA ch46 epigraph ch47 epigraph I feel like we're all talking about the same thing but half of us consider imprisonment to mean unable to move and the others are using it like the book does. Ruin's power was confined by Preservation's power which manifests as the Well. So Ruin was trapped by the Well, if not strictly in the Well as we would think of it.

Welcome to the Shard. If you're right, then Kaladin was born on the wrong planet lol check this recent thread out if you haven't already

I've been watching this thread and thinking this with every new affirmation of the "countering Ruin" statement. I guess I need to re-read, because I never got that impression. I thought Preservation lost himself confining Ruin in the well. Vin taking and releasing the power is what freed Ruin to act. AFTER that Preservation was attempting to counter Ruin, but I don't think there was any need prior to that.

The diagram referring to a traitorous Unmade, Glys, and the multiple interactions with Shallan put me strongly in the camp of Sja-anat telling the truth. She deceived Odium claiming that something unknown happened and the travelers were likely transported far from the gate, but the comment about Shallan being an Elsecaller reads entirely separately. Either Odium is a much better actor than I give him credit for - and indeed than we've seen him be given his penchant for and claims of straight dealing - or the entire encounter with Taravangian must lead me to believe that Odium has paid a minimum of attention to him and the Diagram until this point. This is true, but I'm pretty sure that started long before the opening of the Oathgate. That'll be a hard reference to find though (even if I didn't imagine it; guess I'll have to read it all again ) Skipping Calderis because I agree with him 90% of the time and this is no exception. goody153. Good points about Odium's involvement in the planet. This is another thing I find odd about Odium. I would have thought after 4000+ years, he'd have an epic, spren observation network. I'm curious what prevented him from at least allowing Sja-anat to corrupt spren with wild abandon. Unless her power further binds Odium to the system. There is no binding. They made a deal that Taravangian would act on Odium's behalf in order to avoid the contest of champions. There's nothing stopping Odium from continuing to harass Dalinar other than wanting to avoid any personal injury. I feel like you stopped reading my OP at the phrase you quoted...

This is just an opinion, but I feel like Brandon talks about Taldain from wherever his head's at at the time instead of taking the time from the novel being referenced in the question or, more generally, the most recent novel released. From the culmination of all the WoBs listed, I think we can safely assume that sometime early post-SA5, Taldain is no longer blockaded. It might happen sometime during the events of the first five, but I take the comment from the SoS release party to suggest that it has happened by then at the very least.

According to Sja-anat outside the lighthouse in Shadesmar, Odium thinks Shallan is an Elsecaller. I see three possibilities for this. 1. He's made an assumption that Shallan entered Shadesmar by her own means rather than the Oathgate malfunction. The rest of Sja-anat's message would seem to make this unlikely. 2. He has a mediocre spy inside Urithiru where Shallan has been publicly names an Elsecaller to hide her deception abilities. 3. He's aware of Jasnah's earlier foray into Shadesmar and thinks that's who he's dealing with here. The levels of his knowledge through Oathbringer seem inconsistent to me. Sometimes he seems to know things he shouldn't (Taravangian unlocking the Urithiru Oathgate?) and other times he seems oddly ignorant (as above). I'm curious to hear people's thoughts, both on Odium's awareness of events in general and the implications of his belief of Shallan's order in particular.

Was this maybe supposed to go on the Aboshi and Mountain Spren thread? I'm not sure where ethnicity comes into this conversation. But to respond, I'm pretty sure there's a WoB that says there's less variation in the Cosmere because most humans were patterned on the same model (Yolen?) but a quick search didn't find it. That said, we can identify at least three distinct-ish human ethnicities on Roshar namely, Shin, Alethi, and Irialli iirc, all other Rosharan peoples are decended are some combination of human groups and Listeners. This is the best description we've gotten for the races I think

I find I must unfortunately abandon a significant part of this theory. I Words of Radians I-10 Szeth recalls the stone shamans specifically telling him that "The voidbringers are no more" So my idea that the Shamanate is truthful but technical is wrong. I'm still not convinced they are actively malevolent in their treatment of Szeth, but the implication that they commune with the "spirits of the stones" pushes me closer to believing they are being manipulated by something.

yes this is pretty well established in Oathbringer. No mention of spren guards, though. The storm isn't stopped entirely. We know from Oathbringer that it reaches the Aimian Sea. also: Also of note is this non-answer

Yeah. that's a problematic point. off the top of my head, either of two things is possible: 1. The Horneater migration myth changed much later than the godly association change from storm to water. 2. The god of Water did not betray the Listeners like the other gods. Meaning they really have (at least) four gods and the god of Water just wasn't included in the list of betrayers that we have.

I was attempting to make a connection between Shin, Listener, and Horneater also. I make the assumption that the Listener and Horneaters originally revered the Storm and that eventually became Water for one and Wind for the other (the primary parts of a storm) That would mean that the god of Trees would have to correspond to the god of Spren Horneater: Trees, Water, Mountain Listener : Spren, Wind, Stone Shin : Spren, ? , Stone So my theory ends up with the Stormfather for Wind and Water, the Nightwatcher for Trees and Spren, and "the Sibling" for Stone and Mountain. I feel it worth noting that these three races' languages are all in the dawnate group, which adds support to the idea that their beliefs should be considered together. For the identity of the Sibling, I think Cusicesh is a misdirect. In-world reason being that it is in Iri and I don't trust anything from there to behave by regular Roshar rules. Meta reason is it's too obvious. also it doesn't fit my theory lol

If Szeth was a Stone Shaman and the Stone Shamans are the leaders of the Shin, then the only thing we "know" about the Shin social structure is a lie. Szeth trained with the honorblades, but anyone who touches a sword is automatically moved to the lowest caste, Warrior. Also, obviously, my theory requires the Shamanate to be rather technical in their interpretation of Szeth's claim. I don't take it as given that he actually used the word "voidbringer" in his pronouncement. Something more along the lines of "the enemies of our gods" would suffice