Dreamstorm

Spoilered because, well, you know

[Obnoxiously raises hand ]

Alright, I'm spoilering this because it's about the Triangle(tm), and you all are having a very nuanced conversation about Shallan's progress which is hard for me to catch up on this early in the morning So for the handful who may be interested....

Oh, I totally missed this! Thanks!

Wouldn’t she be either an Edgedancer or Truthwatcher since she had Regrowth?

Especially because Ishar is crazy, Nale buggered off to the other side, Jezrien got legit killed and well, maybe something will happen to Chana so that Ash takes her place and Shallan can be the Lightweaver herald. (Or maybe Shallan’ll just say whatevs to the idea.) But we have people lined up for the first three vacancies!

Yes to stone hooves. I haven’t seen anything definitive on gemhearts (quick search didn’t come up with anything), but there is a WoB they are “Invested” somehow.

I think Renarin was saying that the regular horses don't fit. We know Rhyshadium have some sort of spren synergy (in Dalinar's flashback the herd has musicspren around them.) I'm thinking they may be native (or as native as anything is in the Cosmere) and regular horses the interlopers - coming with our human voidbringers. Curious as to whether or not Rhyshadium have gemhearts too. (There may be WoB on all this stuff though.) It was disappointing not to see Gallant mentioned in Dalinar's flashbacks, especially as they seem to have such a deep bond in WoK, it's hard for me to believe he only bonded with Gallant after visiting the Nightwatcher. Though, I guess that had to be the chronology unless that was just overlooked in the Dalinar flashbacks (i.e. would think we'd get a mention of Gallant of he was around.) Also felt like the fallout of Sureblood's death was dropped from the narrative. Hopefully these horse moments will be picked back up in future books!

Ok, I don't ship them, but Kaladin and Jasnah would be an amazingggggg fighting team. Can you imagine him lashing her around in the air as she soulcasts the storm out of every Fused in sight?! I might get on board with that pairing just to see that

Thanks! So she always has blade. I feel like we have a LOT more to learn about Lightweavers and their truths and progression... I suppose that's true about everyone but Windrunners and Skybreakers, though, but since we've had so much time with a Lightweaver it feels odd! How does Shallan get her shardplate then if she doesn't power up? She better get her shardplate! And well, I would love a crazy power moment from her too!

I agree with all this, including that there is something else big from childhood hanging out there (which, sadly (for the character, not for the narrative), I think will likely have to do with abuse of some kind.) One of the things I wonder is when you say/acknowledge a truth, is that enough to "advance" or do you actually have to "accept" that truth? I would argue that Shallan hasn't truly accepted the fact she killed her mother, both because we repeatedly see her pushing it down (and fracturing her personality in part to push that truth down and still be able to use her blade) and also because we don't have a big moment of "power up". I know not all Radiant orders work the same, but I would think they'd get something from moving up a level. I'm partway through WoK reread now, and I'm going to pay close attention to what powers Shallan gets and when throughout the book, because I suspect she does seem to get something from each truth ("I am terrified", can soulcast and I believe the first time we see her using stormlight?; and "I am a murderer/I killed my father", Pattern appears shortly after that; maybe?) Someone in some thread posted hints that maybe she has her shardplate, but that she can't manifest it yet. If this is true, this would support my theory that she hasn't internalized her truth about killing her mother, which is why she can't access that "power up". Related question, do we KNOW she can use her shardblade from the time period after she kills her mother until she says her "murderer/killed father" truth? Guessing we do, but I don't recall it. Just as an aside, I'm operating on the assumption she has accepted her "terrified" and "murderer/father" truths since she has told others and isn't struggling with them in her viewpoints.

Yes, this works for me!! And let's have her standing up when she takes control I'm going to push what actually happened into the recesses of my mind () and believe this is actually what happened. And then I'm ready for SA4 Shallan. Looking forward to it!

Ok, sorry to drag this thread back in a direction we don't want to go, but THIS is what I mean by what are supposed to do with this ending. Wit's chapter where he gives Shallan his advice is called "The Girl Who Stood Up", and his advice is partly to see that she is the one standing up. And here, in her big moment of finding herself, she is sitting down... This just feels so sloppy. For goodness sake, even if the girl needs a man to find the "real" her, can she at least stand up while doing so? When standing up was given so much symbolism earlier in the book?? ETA - Sorry for the rant, but I'm really trying to get behind this ending, but I notice things like this and it just makes it so, so hard. I just want to be sold on this ending! ETA2 - I'm spoilering this bc it's love triangle related.

Haha, it's a lot more than that. She genuinely like him. They get along really well. They work well together in stressful situations. I hate how this ended (with the hand grabbing moment), but I think it's stretching to say they didn't have a solid relationship foundation I think perhaps more than anything this is meant to be her choosing "stability" over "sparks", which Brandon sees as a mature decision on her part. I think you're in the majority!!! I just wish she would have had agency... if only SHE had made the decision of which personality dominated and then Adolin recognized that she had done so. We still see that he really "sees" her, but with her getting the empowerment out of it. Yes, I would feel better because it would eliminate the "leaning on your man" angle, but I would still prefer Shallan herself come into these moments on her own. Overall, I'm still upset our male protagonists get to have their moments by struggling through on their own and our female protagonist needs to rely on someone else. It makes it worse she's relying on a man, but either one puts her in a position where she has less agency vis-a-vis the male characters.

This actually oddly makes me feel better that he got strong reactions and still gave us what he gave us. At least it was intentional (for better or for worse.) I still don't think it's Wit as we've seen zero evidence that he even has the capability to speak into someone's mind. If he does, why does he need to be there in person to talk to everyone else (and throughout every Cosmere book I've read)? We have seen plenty of evidence of shards and cognitive shadows talking into someone's mind, so we know that's a possibility. But, I'm probably most of the view that this was a hallucination of Shallan and shows her "internalizing" Wit's advice, as this second set of advice is exactly what we see her doing in the end - dominating her "secondary" personalities. That's different from how I read Wit's original advice, but from what Brandon has said, he sees this domination as her following it and a step in the right direction. I'm actually curious to hear! (Either PM or on this thread.) I see lots of "cute moments" between them, and I'm on board with the idea they have a solid foundation (if I can get the yuck of grabbing hand, staring into eyes and seeing the "real" Shallan out of my head), but I don't see a lot of foreshadowing. (Like, moments where in another chapter there's one little clue which points to "x" happening even though it's not at all talking about "x".) But I'd like to know what you've found! From what I read of @kari-no-sugata's post (on the signing thread), I'm pretty sure Brandon himself said it was due to Lightweaving.

I know, very frustrating. It's part of the reason I'm telling myself that the plot was changed decently late in the game (post-WoR), which makes the arc not hang together like it should. There are a number of ways it doesn't really line up (and even some from those happy with the outcome.) It is interesting in the reddit post that Sanderson spends half the post discussing Shallan's romantic arc and how he had to work on it a lot, which makes me think it didn't flow for him as well as other arcs when crafting it. SA is a massive, massive work (and by far the most ambitious and lengthy work Sanderson has done), so it makes sense some arcs won't come together well. I just wish it wasn't one that bothered me so much

Maya first exhibits awareness immediately after Adolin is stabbed in the gut, so perhaps that was the short amount of time where Adolin's spiritual web was cracked enough to let her in. Then once she's in, the bond can grow from there.

I wasn't trying to shoot you down! Just disagreeing with you. FWIW, I think Dalinar's main arc also can't be decoupled from his romantic arc with Evi. The reason it bothers me less is this: Dalinar's arc (once he remembers) goes mess, mess, mess, mess, healing, healing, Evi telling him he did the healing right (i.e. she forgives him.) Shallan's arc goes mess, mess, mess, mess, Adolin solving it for her, healing, healing. But you are 1000% right that a lot of my disappointment is that this is different from what I personally want to read. I'm going to quote myself from a PM I wrote a couple of days ago to someone else: So yeah, I want Shallan to be very different than how Sanderson wants Shallan to be. And it's his character, so he get his way , but that doesn't mean I'm not disappointed in how he had her character evolve. (I see her in WoK and WoR as taking major steps towards independence; this is a backtrack from what I wanted to see.) BTW, just as a "alternate plot" note, if Shallan had come to the realization on her own after or during the TC battle that she was "Shallan" and then she walked up to Adolin and he recognized that she had made that choice, I would be much happier. Not what happened, realize this is wishful thinking, but just as an illustration to pinpoint what bothers me. I think you're going to have to accept that Sanderson didn't portray the disorder realistically. He used this as a plot device. IIRC, he has a family member with depression, so he's seen that disorder's progression first hand and has said he is able to portray it better because of that. If Sanderson hadn't had this experience with depression, we may be feeling differently about how Kal's depression was portrayed. Ha, I've been here for a while! (When other posters bring up Kaladin as an integral part of Shallan's romantic arc, it's actually a little jarring because it's not even a part of my thinking. From a writing and plotting point of view, yes, but not the emotional, character part.) I don't know if that makes it any better, maybe actually worse. There are a lot bigger problems with the arc than what guy was picked. I almost wish it was just about that! Oh man, you just voiced what is now a HUGE concern of mine. Not that Jasnah has a romance at all, but that it becomes a huge healing moment for her like it was for Shallan. Now firmly on the "no romance for Jasnah" train to avoid this! Yeah, I don't think it will either, and I think it'll always be, for me, a major disappointment of the series. There are tons of other amazing things, but the portrayal of women in our society and how it's mirrored here does not make me happy. But, though I know the mental health disorder aspect was bungled, I actually do see "relying on a man to make important decisions" to be realistic. I get irritated with women about this IRL too, and I have had to pull myself back from the edge of judging other women for their decisions when their circumstances can make it hard to make a different decision. I will endeavor to do this with Shallan (and Sanderson's decisions for her) as well.

Sorry - I don't know how to edit and add quotes, so mods can feel free to combine. Ugh, I disagree, by making the romantic connection a touchstone in Shallan "finding herself" it makes them reliant on one another. How else was she to make this mental leap forward without having her man around to find the "real her"? Adolin may not be a crutch, but he'll always be the person to "recognize" the "real her", which is what I'm (and I think others) are reacting to. Yeah, I agree with you. I think Sanderson thought the symptoms sounded like an interesting platform, but in the end, this wasn't a real mental health disorder at play. It was a fantasy disorder which used some elements of a real-world disorder. I'm really, really sorry. I'm hoping that eventually you can see this as fantasy, NOT an example of how the disorder really functions and is solved. I feel let down too (from a different point of view which is personal (as a female), but not as painful), but in the end, it's just one dude twisting stuff around to make what he hopes is an interesting story. It SUCKS that he had to pull incredibly personal, painful elements for you in order to make that story, but it's not actually a realistic portrayal so maybe eventually that will be ok. (I know it doubly sucks because you thought, a lot of us thought, it was going to be realistic, so that is a huge letdown.)

Thanks for summarizing the info on DID/OSDD! I know people talked about it, but this laid it out really well. I think this is exactly what is happening here. Possibly by reading a description of the symptoms of the disorder but not doing concrete research into it. I don't see this as negatively as the WoB's posted above. He's just saying it worked out in a way which syncs with where he wants to go, but not really where he wants to go (in future books.) (Unlike in the WoB where he says he wants to go in the direction of this being a step forward for Shallan's emotional healing/development.) I actually see this as better than the "Adolin grabbed my hand and saw the real me" implications, since at least this seems to be indicating he wanted Shallan and Veil to be seem as two personalities to one person instead of two people (with "Shallan" to be chosen and "Veil" to be pushed aside.) Yeah.... this is incredibly, incredibly disappointing. I get that some women do rely on men for their emotional stability and development, so it's not unrealistic per se (unlike the lack of realism in the OSDD portrayal), but also not the direction I ever want to see female characters evolve. I now wish we could get Shallan out of the way, so we can get to (for me) more interesting, more independent and self-empowered characters like Jasnah (To those who I've had this discussion with, I have actually become anti-Shallan even though I didn't feel I was before, sorry!) I'm kinda of the opinion his mind was changed about where he was going with this, and as Shallan and Adolin evolved, he wanted to keep them and had to find out how to keep them without totally throwing his earlier plotting out of the window. Like you said about going back to your original perspective, this was how I felt when I originally read the book (that it was a changed plot point), then I decided there was more here than I originally thought, but now I'm back to this opinion. I haven't read all of this books, but for me this is the biggest "writing misstep" I've seen from him, which sucks considering the overall amazingness of SA! But, this is the most ambitious project he's ever taken on, so it's understandable that things won't work out perfectly from a plotting perspective. As someone said a couple days ago, it just makes you not trust the foreshadowing when you get such little payoff for a lot of groundwork laid.

I ran out of upvotes for the day, but exactly this. I read WoK and WoR as partly her journey to independence, and I feel like this undermines that journey. As much as I love romances, I don't want any of my female characters needing a man in order to experience self-discovery

Haha, I kinda think you're trying to read what you want to read in those answers It seems pretty clear Brandon sees Shallan's ending as a positive development where she took steps forward and that was (at least partly) due to Adolin recognizing the "Shallan" her. It bothers me to no end that our male leads get big steps forward by coming into powerful realizations on their own and our female lead comes to her realization by grabbing onto a man's hand. I'm obviously a feminist so this completely cuts counter to how I want to see women portrayed in fiction, but these aren't my characters to create!

Sorry, sorry, I was actually trying to make that a positive post (finding good things in a plot line I didn't really like when I read the book!) Alright, well this is pretty clear cut that we're supposed to see the end as a step forward for Shallan's development. Makes me sad we don't see something more powerful from her when this step forward happened, but so it goes. (Look at my acceptance coming through!) ETA: Thank you for asking these questions!! Not excited about what this is saying about Shallan's storyline, but good to know what the author is meaning to do here, so really appreciate you asking!

And @Bliev I'm going to have to disagree with you guys here. I'm totally happy with Jasnah staying out of a relationship for any and all reasons (she doesn't want to be in one, she's asexual, whatever it is), but I do think it would be interesting to see her have to grapple with romantic feelings (be it with man, woman or Parshendi, hehe.) It does seem like she's been avoiding romance, maybe hinting at past trauma as many have mentioned, and at the very least she seems to have vehemently rejected it in the past (Amaram, not that he was a stellar option). I'm guessing we won't see movement on this until she becomes a headline character in the second half of the series, but I would be interested in seeing how she comes to terms with romantic feelings in light of her incredibly independent and a bit standoffish nature. ETA: I forgot to add, in an Alethi society where social norms are changing drastically (darkeyes leading, women fighting), I also think it will be easier for Jasnah to come into contact with potential romantic interests who aren't going to try and fit her into the box where I imagine she was often put (pretty princess), so I think there will be a lot more options with whom she could find a meaningful romance. Off topic, but I've been a bit dreading the Eshonai-focus book, so thank you for this because these are great points of interest that are making me reconsider that feeling!

I completely agree with this - the more I think about this, facing pain and coming to terms with it is the crux of what needs to happen. It actually, in many ways, seems to be the crux of being a KR at all. There are good parallels in OB between Dalinar's story (where he accepts the pain associated with his past actions) and Shallan's (where it doesn't appear that she does.) This is why I have to believe Shallan hasn't accepted her pain. No one is pondering whether or not Dalinar has accepted his pain at the end of OB, or whether or not Kaladin had internalized that he has to protect even those he hates at the end of WoR. I think when these "moments" happen, we see something momentous which will make it unquestionably obvious that next "level" has been met. OK, tangent, so don't read if you hate all the "love triangle" business. All of this dissection of Shallan's arc is actually making me appreciate the love triangle. If no romance element was in the picture, I think it would be so glaringly obvious Shallan hadn't progressed that no one would really even be discussing it (kinda like Kaladin with his 4th ideal.) If it was just Adolin in the picture, I think many people (myself included) would be happy enough with that storyline that we wouldn't be picking apart every little passage trying to figure out what happened. (It would just be a romantic arc which could have used a bit more emotion and development.) But, since there is some portion of the readership who is not happy with how the romance turned out (be is for character-based or for literary reasons), it's leading to a ton of exploring Shallan's chapters and dissecting their nuances which is making me (and I think others?) realize really interesting facets of her story. Just my opinion, of course, but @PhineasGage maybe it's because I'm finally closing out my stages of grief over Shallan's romantic arc in OB