Telcontar

It wasn't, feel reassured. It was about the Blades-are-of-Odium idea, which should not take place here IMO. But then again, it would not be the first time a discussion completely generates into another one. Hope you don't take offense, Aethling, I just like to stay on topic in the discussion I started. @hoser. I would be the last person to complain about a long post. I just feel that I'm in a bad position to criticise in that matter Ok, I understand better now. I don't believe in that theory, but when it comes to belief nothing can be sure So let's discuss about things that can be discussed, what you already began with. To be exact, that's my theory. That Nohadon found a way to procure Blade and Plate in order to motivate Surgebinders to become KR, bound by their (honorable) oaths. And that Blade and Plate were indeed given by Honor. Now there is two things. At that point, Dalinar has already experienced a good number of visions, in which he has not seen anything that resembles the modern fabrials. In his society Blade and Plate are not considered fabrials. Blades for one thing don't do anything on their own. It could be that they are powered by Stormlight (they do have a gem which would be infused everytime it is back in the spiritual realm, also the Blades glowed in the Recreance-vision). And for Plate we have no spren that is used. I forgot the other thing And she is the best artifabriwhatever on Roshar. I just believe her in that matter. It's always about the interpreation of honorable. Szeth is a Surgebinder, probably because he stucks to his oath at all costs, probably having gained his bond by protecting people. I know there is that possibility that Szeht gained his Windrunner-powers in some other way, but for now I presume that Szeth has his spren. It's not, you're right. But you've seen where it comes from, I believe. I espouse it for now. Just because it fits in with everything else. I think that the Shardic intent only plays a role with voluntary splinters. Also a 'real' splinter needs more spiritual energy IMO than the result of a splintering. I think those many many spren would just be too small to have a real intent. I don't know if a Shard can influence his 'body' after he is splintered.

Windrunner, I like that explanation very much. It is neat, simple and well-spoken. I grant you the rare pleasure of getting an upvote from me. No wonder they gave you your spikes Congratulation for your promotion btw. I still might explain where my idea of free cognitive aspects came from. You are surely familiar with this quote Emphases are mine. Hesina might not be an expert in sprenology but it's interesting nontheless. Spren of something split when the object is split, like you explained. But spren can be freed, when the object ceases to exist in some way appearently. The spren of food could be transformed into a spren of human waste. But if Hesina is right, spren can be free. That would be when any physical representation is gone, wouldn't it? I realize that wood has been a bad example. I'll stick to the idea that cognitive aspects can be freed. Even if I am unsure how. Do you agree on that? It's unclear to me if you refuse that idea totally. If you do, I'd be very interested to know what you think spren are. Their nature. Then the third emphasis. I think the soul is your spiritual aspect, made out of spiritual energy. I'm more interested here in the spre-inside-your-body parts. There are seemingly spren in greatshells who make them grow that large. I'd imagine spren in humans along those lines. About emotion-spren. I don't think that new spren are forming but that the usual ones are attracted to your emotion. So that you wouldn't lose any of your spiritual energy. OK, I'll admit you probably don't free cognitive aspects of your emotions. I still have problems with emotion-spren. If spren were formed during Honor's splintering, how could his energy bind to emotions? Any ideas?

Nor have I. Could you give us that information, please? Meaning that Odium is not on Roshar (yet) and there being another Shard that has left

You assume that fabrials existed when the KR were founded. Firstly we have Dalinar who is convinced that there were no fabrials in his visions. Secondly we know that fabrials require a spren trapped into a gemstone. See the thread entitled "Fabrials and spren" on General Theories. There has been some discussion on what fabrials are and how they work. But there is a doubt on whether normal, ie non-Nahel-spren, ie spren that did not bond to honorable people, already existed when the KR were formed. Since we know that Honor is splintered, it seems likely (at least to me) that spren were the result of Honor's splintering. But this occured many years and Desolations later, since BS has told explicitely that Honor was still around when the Heralds left. So: no spren, no fabrials. This requires of course that Nahel-spren are different from 'normal' spren. I didn't really want to discuss about Blades being of Odium or Honor, since there is like 50 threads out there discussing that topic. But anyway. Why should Odium give the KR swords that could cut thunderclasts as easily as air? And don't tell me Shardblades were around on Roshar before the KR. Why should the KR (as THE honorable association) be given swords that are primarily used to fight back Desolations and the Ten Deaths and such things. If you point out that Syl does not like Dalinar's Blade very much, did it never occur to you that hundreds of spren like Syl were bonded to KR who wielded that kind of Blades for centuries and it probably did not bother anyone? You say that hatred and killing go fairly well together. It depends on what you kill. People kill animals to eat them, or insects because they are annoying. Even killing humans in defense of your or another's life wouldn't be killing because of hatred. And the KR probably didn't kill people (at least originally) but used the swords to defend humans. I don't really understand why the heartbeat limitation should be an argument in favor of the Odium-origin of Shardblades. As I said, it would equally help you to get your sword faster, when a thunderclast threatens to kill you. Of course Blades may have and probably have been misused later, to kill other humans. But that's completely different. You could use only your Plate to kill. Just smash your heavy gauntlet in someone's face. Like Adolin likes to do. That is sufficient to kill someone. Or use a hammer like Sadeas. My opinion about why Syl doesn't like Dalinar's Blade. It's probably because they have been misused in the past. Dalinar kills Parshendi with it. Also a Blade severes the spiritual connection of a being. As a mainly spiritual being maybe a Blade could kill even a spren. So, how about getting back to topic? the origin of Plate and Blade?

only that the wood is gone. and the cognitive aspect of gas and ash would be another cognitive aspect. Of gas and ash. The part that takes himself for a piece of wood would be gone. Even if it's split. After all, if you'd put the pieces back together, you wouldn't get back the piece of wood. Actually I meant Honor's energy. I converted. I now believe in the spren-were-created-when-Honor-was-splintered-theory. Stormlight is only what Honor put into the Origin/Highstorms willingly before he splintered to make Surgebinding work. Then, when he splintered, his energy washed all over Roshar except for Shinovar, which was sheltered by the mountains. Since then, no spren would have been created anymore. So the spren we see are the same old ones since Honor's splintering. That's why they can appear in places that are covered from Stormlight, like indoors, because they are free to go where they want. Nothing works well with emotions, I agree I say (to stay in line with my theory, but I'm not that convinced of it either, just so that you know) that whenever your emotions change, the cognitive aspect of the emotion - not the one of the human - is freed. Or some similar process. You got it right. My only problem with that is that humans are not really responsible for the transfer of spiritual energy. the spiritual energy (ie the spren) comes from somewhere around instead. But I may be wrong either on my definition of Investiture or in that fabrials are different...

Thanks for the quote! That sounds indeed much more like a 'normal' fabrial to me. They want their original physical aspect back. The one of the cognitive aspect before it was bound by Honor-energy. You see, in my understanding spren are cognitive aspects that were freed during a change of something (emotion, fire, creation, music) and bound to Honor-energy during his splintering. It's the awareness of the spren again. "I was a piece of wood" When other pieces of wood are burned those cognitive aspects are freed as well. The spren detects those aspects and is drawn to the origin of it, hoping to find a new piece of wood. Why would it want a gem? I think that is the art in creating fabrials. Find the way to trick spren into gems by cutting them in a way, that spren mistake the gem for something different. And Shardplate is far too physical to be a spren IMO.

Ok, before you get your answer, I shall point out, that I hereby officially revoque the theory that Stormlight during Highstorms is responsible for spren. Instead I follow the idea that it is Honor's splintering that caused spren to come into existence. We know since the google+ Hangout that Honor is splintered. While Syl and other Investiture-spren are volontary splinters of Honor, thus existing before the splintering, when Honor finally was splintered (most probably by Odium), his energy washed over Roshar and created spren on the path. It doesn't change much about my theory, but I believe it fits better. Only one explanation as to why: rainspren are said to be rare. It's in the book, Kaladin is thinking about it. But if Stormlight during Highstorms would be responsible for spren, there should be much more rainspren IMO. And there is flamespren although it is unlikely that a fire will burn during a Highstorm. Of course, I based my theory and definition of spren on the typical rules of a spren, free CA bound to spritual energy. It is my personal belief that spren are attracted to other freed CAs. They appear when something changes. But change does mean that CAs are freed. When a fire burns, the CAs of the fuel are freed. When you eat something, when your emotions change, when you create something, when you die, there is always CA that are freed from their physical aspect. These free CAs go back to wherever they came from (possibly Shadesmar), attracting spren that formed from similar CAs during the Splintering of Honor. Because a normal spren has no way to perceive the physical realm other than by other CAs. From that follows my belief that spren tend to search out for a new physical aspect. CAs that are not bound by spirit only fade into non-existence, but spren cannot do so. But as they have no physical aspect, they are incomplete. As CAs they are barely aware of more than what they originally were made of. They detect other CAs freed on their way to non-existence and go there, in hope to find a physical aspect. That's why you can see them when something changes, because they are searching in the physical realm for a physical aspect. Did you take into account that Honor is splintered in this? I don't know where you've been these last days, so maybe you missed it? I'd say there is no large force of Honor anymore. For now that might constitute the major flaw of your theory. However, if you were aware of it, forget what I am saying. In that case I'll just have to oppose you with my own understanding of spren as explained in this post.

First, let me say that I enjoy this discussion, you both have very good and developped ideas, this is how we advance in these forums. *thumbs up* It's the second way of reading. Each fabrial detects an emotion. See the different pictures on Navani's second page here. there is ten gems which each detect another emotion. For example "man betrayed by a close friend" triggers anger, sadness and surprise. So the bracelet is the 'machine' made out of ten fabrials. Didn't you point out the limited capacities of any fabrial? (sorry if I'm mistaken) Fabrials do but one thing. This only feeds my belief that Soulcasters aren't fabrials. But this is my personal belief. Well, actually by considering it while I write, I remember that Shallan once thought about the normal Soulcasters which were often limited to one (?) Essence. Which would fit far better in the fabrial-concept. What Soulcasters (ardents) do most is creating food or barracks, turning things to stone, or to air/dust, always Casting one simple Essence. Anyway, the Ghostblood Soulcaster could very well be fake. So I'd say there is Soulcaster-fabrials after all. The setting I'd say we have to distinguish the setting that only holds gems in place and parts of the machine. the pain-knives would be part of the machine. After all you probably have to touch a person with the machine somehow, the knives pierce cloth or even leather and permit the fabrial to take effect in a human body. It's like you channel the effect into something. A heat-fabrial can just give off heat. A spanreed moves the attached machine. The detection-fabrials just glow. But a feeling would need to have its effect in a body. The setting would need to have an effect on something important (gem-type, cut, Stormlight-pattern, spren captuered). It might influence the Stormlight pattern. I'm not sure about that. Blade and Plate I still say they have been given to the Radiants by Honor. I posted my thoughts about it some time ago, but noone seemed interested in them (yes, you answered, Windrunner) I honestly don't know if fabrials are invested objects though. I defined Investiture as the transfer of Power of creation from Shard or human to subject or object. (The definition could be terribly wrong of course) For Blade and Plate, I think that Honor gave some tiny part of himself to create them. It seems to be important that the Power sticks to the object. But maybe that's only the case of Primary Investiture. Anyway, go for Shardspears! Of course, they don't have MUCH of a cognitive aspect. They are cognitive aspects of some pretty stupid stuff, like rain, wind or emotion. But as everything has a cognitive aspect, they must have one. Only that it is limited to a rough awareness of 'I am wind' or 'I am pain'. Does this help? Maybe they didn't get the right cut? There must be thousand of possibilities, as Navani pointed out. It might be sufficient that the cut is slightly different. And still, I think fabrials have at least be near spren to attract them. I'd say that the cognitive aspect of the spren plays a role in it. The spren IMO wants a physical aspect back.

I messed things up a bit: here is the quote about VoidBRINGERS and Stormlight: That's at least what I was referring to. Nice thought!

my fault, did not get what you were saying. as good a guess as any I suppose. It seems to me that how we view Surgebinding is just a matter of terminology. the spren adds her spiritual aspect to your own, increasing your connection to Honor as long as the bond exists. I'd say we meant the same thing after all, didn't we? About the Pattern of Stormlight Just as a reminder.as Satsuoni pointed out, the fabrial is only the gem with a spren trapped inside. That's why I'd interprete that quote differently. A stone is cut in a special way. Light that enters the gem is broken in many many ways, the 'prismatic effect'. The cut thus creates a pattern of Stormlight inside the gem. That may or may not in addition interact with the spren trapped inside. All of this determines the power of the gem. I believe the holder does not have any effect. As to Shallan's broken Soulcaster. So far, we have not seen any working Soulcasting-fabrial. Ok, we've seen only two anyway, one at least was a fake. I've sometimes considered the possibility that there is no such thing as a fabrial used to Soulcast. That ardents only fool everyone. That would mean that they are all Surgebinders. Which is not that odd to believe IMO, because they are scholars after all, following the Ideal 'Learned'. (understanding that Jasnah's order is #5) Also, their Soulcasting-abilities are the only thing that gives them any importance. So it makes sense for them to hide the secret that anyone could learn to Soulcast. And then, Soulcaster-fabrials are not fabrials in the modern way. Jasnah's surely looks like a real one, so uncut stones will be sufficient for Soulcasting. And uncut stones don't attract spren. So they are not fabrials. I'll come to your distcintion between old and modern fabrials, Satsuoni Good question: how can you capture a spren? Without physical aspect, it's difficult to conceive that. Again, I don't think the setting plays a role in this. The question is related to another: how is it that Stormlight is captured in gems? And this time it's also uncut stones, which will capture less Stormlight than cut ones. I imagine it like there is mirrors on the insides of the gems which will reflect the Light. Normal glass always bends the Light and reflects some of it. Mirrors reflect much more. Remember that gems leak Stormlight and will grow dun over the weeks. With cut stones we have much more surface to reflect the Light, so it captures more. Spren are essentially Stormlight so it would work in a similar way for them. Only that it is captured definitively, perhaps due the additional cognitive aspect somehow. I oppose your idea of old fabrials Concerning Soulcasters, see aboce. Shardplate and Shardblades are Invested objects, IMO. It has been confirmed for Shardblades: WOB: As Shardplate is also said to be given by the Almighty I say those are Invested objects as well. In my terminology, they are invested by a Primary Investiture (directly from Shard to object), as in opposition to filled metalminds for example which are invested by the human (Secondary Investiture). I see no problem with Shardblades using Stormlight however. There is that gem on the hilt and it would be possible that the gem is infused every time the Blade is back in the spritual realm Which is pretty often. Of course this is just a wild guess. Why would Invested objects require Stormlight? It's similar to the phantom-army in Warbreaker. Those required Breath to hold together. They needed additional Breath to become 'alive'. So while Blade and Plate have magical abilities on their own, they still must be fueled. I really don't believe that Investiture-spren would get caught. Syl obviously would be intelligent enough to not get trapped. As to the others, I suppose they would be sentient enough too not get attracted as well. After all they are probably Splinters. However you still have a point. How does the attraction function. Spren IMO are cognitive aspects without a physical body that have bound with spiritual energy (Stormligh or during Honor's splintering). I'd say that spren tend to want a physical part. so more like the moth to the flame. If you've read everything, thank you for your attention and feel free to respond

Brandonthology: emphasis mine If I understand the concept of Shardic intent correctly, then following a Shard's intent is the way to gain magical abilities in the first place. How one get's invested. Or maybe how you get access to your magical abilities. (snapping) All you need to do to become a Surgebinder is acting in an honorable way (according to one of the Heraldic Ideals). Syl's sentience is only a result of the greater connection to Honor. There is no Cultivation implied. After all, one could as well say that Elantrians self-healing abilities are cultivated... But there again, that's only the result of the Shaod. Cultivation is not even there. Err... so far Surgebinding is the only magic system we've seen on Roshar. It uses Stormlight yes. Voidbinding appearently does. But that's all. We don't know much about the Old Magic but it does not seem to use Stormlight. Stone Shamanism probably does not use Stormlight as there is no Stormlight in Shinovar. All evidence points to the conclusion that Surgebinding is Honor. For Cultivation, my guess is that Stone Shamanism is hers. Shinovar is the only place on Roshar where you can farm due to the lack of Highstorms. And farming certainly is cultivating the earth. My other guess is that Cultivation (as being the first one to arrive on Roshar) created the Highstorms to enable life on Roshar. Life needs water and it seems only to rain during Highstorms and during the Weeping. All Roshar-originated life-forms are adapted to Highstorms, all those plants that only open when it rains. Without rain they probably would dry out. Honor arrived later and added his spirits to Highstorms.

5. the other two Surgebinders we've seen in action. Szeth and Shallan. We haven't seen their spren, but that does not mean they have none. They must have, at least Shallan, if you say that Szeth gained his powers in another way, which I do not believe. 6. probably other Shin. I believe that Szeth has been trained. He is well informed about his powers, he know the names of the Lashing, knows that he is Surgebinding, while Dalinar for example has no idea what Surgebinding is. Those stone shamans, if they can recover a blade, they should have some way to get the blades after all.

I suppose they can. By putting all the splinters back together. That would be one Void of a work. Also Power seems to be regathering every 1024 years. As in Preservation's Shardpool. Also I don't believe that corrupted Breath is definitively lost.

thank you very much for that Brandon-spiritweb-info. I didn't know that. That makes it a lot easier to me to understand that mysterious spiritweb. and suddenly the body-focus-spiritweb-connection seems a lot more likely to me. you're probably right about the cut. While it determines the type of spren it probably determines the use of the fabrial as well. But maybe you get different effects by combining gems. Like when you Soulcast you use different gems to create something that is not an Essence. (That's at least how I believe things work). If spren are CAs then there is probably spren for everything. If we follow that new theory that Honor's splintering caused spren to come to existence, then it also explains why some spren are more rare than others. Rainspren for example are very rare, it's said in the book. So probably, when Honor splintered, there was no rain, as there is only rain during Highstorms and during the Weeping. So I say it could be that the cut only determines what type of spren can be captured. Odium's_Shard would speak of the prismatic effect of the stone that also determines the outcome. And that effect would of course depend on the cut. Let's summarize: the type of gem determines what spren can be captured and probably also the effect of the fabrial the cut of the gem determines what spren can be captured (and perhaps the effect as well) the type of gem only determines the effect About the rest. I won't believe that one body focus will be the same for two orders until it will be stated so by BS As to the bond, I understand it that way, that spren and human share their combined spritual aspects. And I'll have to disagree, I think that it indeed makes your aspect stronger. Because a stronger aspect is what is needed to perform magic. Remember BS talking about Mistborn having a 100% connection to Preservation while Allomancers would have only 50% and normal people about 30% ? (Not sure about the numbers but it's about like that) I believe that the Nahel bond increases your connection by lifting your spiritual aspect. And the increasement is not permanent. For Allomancy via genetics it is. But if you become an Allomancer by Hemalurgy you can lose that power by removing the spike (as has happened to Spook). And you can lose Breath. Appearenlty Elantrians could become zombies in just one moment.

Even if it may be completely non-sensical I like it a lot We know that Honor was still around when the Heralds abandoned and is not anymore. So he must have been splintered/died in between. But Nohadon mentions honorspren. And Nohadon inspired the Radiants (they read his book "The Way of Kings") so Nohadon comes before KR. KR come before the Prelude. Of course that could mean that only Splinter-spren existed before Honor's shattering. And those seem to prefer to only show themselves to their bondee. And the other 'normal' spren could have come to 'life' afterwards with Honor's splittering. My theory about spren is that they are cognitive aspects bonding with Stormlight during Highstorms because the Highstorm carries some of Honor's power which is to be found at the origin in some kind of Shardpool. Could also be that when Honor splintered, his Power overflowed Roshar, creating spren everywhere. Then it was washed away with the next Highstorm, leaving everything at the origin... I like that, so much new thought in my head

Okay. Honor is splintered. Splintered as in: destroyed, that's how I understand it. Because there can be Splinters while the Shard remains more or less intact, isn't that the case with Endowment (sorry if I get that wrong). If Nahel-spren are Splinters, I'd say they were there before Honor was splintered. Also, is his death the same as being splintered? Being splintered seems to me like something instant, and Honor seems to have died slowly.

The type and cut of gems determines what sort of spren can be attracted to it and captured in it, is what Navani says, I believe. I agree that spren provide a connection to Honor, Stormlight would only be the fuel needed for the fabrial to work. But also the type of spren seems to be important. I would believe that the spren captured in the gem used in the pain-knife would be a pain-spren. If spren are indeed cognitive aspects (CA) that have bound stormlight, then the CA would persist in the spren, it's what makes the spren a specific type of spren. But a spren has no physical aspect and thus no means to do what the CA normally does. The CA of pain knows it's pain. But without a physical aspect it is naught but that knowledge. By trapping them, you give them a physical aspect. And by the cut you would determine the actual outlet of the Power. Flame-spren for example might also be heat-spren. So the spren is the CA of heat. So everything it knows it does is that it's hot. But without something physical which can cause the heat, the spren doesn't do anything. You trap it in a ruby. The ruby's Essence is fire, so it would make sense that cou capture heat-spren in rubies. By giving the spren a gem as physical aspect it can do what is it's purpose: emit heat. (those heat-fabrials) ONLY that normally the heat comes from burning stuff. The normal fuel is wood, coal, oil etc. But you wouldn't want to burn diamonds (don't know if any other of the gems can burn). So what is used to produce heat is Stormlight. It seems to me that gems are confined, too. If you use them in Soulcasting, they can crack. Also, they can crack in Shardplate. I only suppose that this would be the case with fabrials. But as fabrials in general seem to use much smaller amounts of Stormlight it will be much less likely to happen. yeah, you seem to have the same idea I explained above. Gems are tied to Essences (which are the same as Soulcasting properties IMO). I believe that only certain spren can be attracted to certain gems. The effect of the fabrial is then determined first by the gem who limits the type of spren that can be captured and secondly by the cut of the gem which determines how you make use of the spren. I think those symbols were glyphs, Roshar-glyphs. Of course those might be similar to Aons in their effect. I theorize that spren increase one's spritual aspect. That's also what happens when you eat some Lerasium, when the Shaod turns you into an Elantrian or when you get more and more Breath. IIRC what is engraved in one's spiritweb is the oulet of the power, ie which power you can use and to what amount. Of course the spren must be responsible for that as well, so. Yes I suppose the spren modifies your spiritweb. As to the body focuses. My personal opinion still is, that they are useless. I am probably wrong, but so far I haven't seen any reasonable explanation why these would be needed. And no, the fact that Kaladin is inhaling Stormlight is not enough for me, thank you for not bringing that up again But. if the Surges one can use are indeed grafted into your spiritweb on body focuses, well, why not. I have no idea how to imagine a spiritweb, it may just cover your entire body like an additional layer of skin. Inhalation could be lungs. exhalation could mean not "breathing-out" but something different like one's smell. I just think the same body focus for two orders is not a good idea. As to the soul. Maybe on Roshar the host of your soul is the Heart. As in 'the spark (3rd order) of life' So it would be the heart. I like the idea of Jasnah standing too close to someone she turns into fire. She gets all her hair burned off. "Void, why can't I soulcast anymore"... And all those poor bald guys. (Of course the spiritweb would remain intact even if your body loses some of it's parts, I know)

I like that (last) idea. I have theorized that spren form when Stormlight binds to free cognitive aspects. The more spirit meets cognitive, the more sentient it becomes. I'd say the Protector it's that big because it drains tiny parts of human's spiritual energy. We know that people feel drained after having visited it. And we know that drabs feel a loss of something, only more important than what people feel after meeting the Protector. And if the Protector has lots of tiny human souls inside itself, those tiny souls make up the Protector's personality, only with many many faces. So when he appears, all the faces he has collected over the years shift constantly.

thanks Eri, but didn't you post another one quite similar to this one? Anyway. There is some other questions about spren I'd like to do some research about and try to use this theory to explain other phenomena we encounter related to spren. Or maybe we'll find some issues that will prove that everything I said is nuts. So there is the following things I'd like to discuss with you: - the interlude where spren stop changing shape when their measurements are written down - the problem with special type of spren. Ie (what's-his-name) the Protector and also symbolheads. - the powers spren have or give. I'm not talking about Investiture-spren but about spren captured in fabrials and those who have an effect on their own, for example the spren who allow greatshells to grow to that size. - what exactly attracts them and why - what makes them stick in fabrials. I'm going to start with abnormal spren Talking about abnormal spren first needs a definition of normal spren of course. In the initial post I was only referring to those spren who don't have much of a distinctive shape and glow in some colour. Often those float around, but some don't (f.ex. rotspren or deathspren). What they have in common IMO is what I said in the OP. They are cognitive aspects that in some way have bound with Stormlight. So, what makes others abnormal? For the Protector it's his enormous size and his curious shape. For symbolheads (presuming they are indeed spren) it's their size, their shape (which does not change at all) and their intelligence. All this points to the conclusion that they are at least a different kind of spren. it is said that some of the bigger spren (like wind- or riverspren) are able to imitate the shape of objects. Like leaves for example. Honorspren can certainly do so, but as I said, I believe those to be Splinters. If the size of a spren can indicate its ability to change shape then this could just be related to a bigger amount of Stormlight bound, thus granting more sentience and intelligence. Which would just be barely enough to imitate other things. To retain their elaborated shape, the Protector and symbolheads would need a fair amount of sentience. The symbolheads even more, since they are able to speak to people. Of course, if you support the idea that symbolheads are Investiture-spren, then this would only be due to the Nahel-bond. (You may know that I do not agree with that idea) But. Syl says herself that spren are all the same, they act all alike, except for Syl herself. Then why do symbolheads contain their shape. And, if the Nahel-bond grants sentience to only one spren, then why are there so many symbolheads in their symbolhead-shape? Also, perception. Normal spren can be seen in the physical realm, whey they are attracted to whatever attracts them. Some spren can appearently only be seen with the subconscious mind. Like dying people (seeing deathspren or symbolheads), very very drunk people (intoxication-spren) or through the corners of the eyes/in mirrors (for Elhokar) or via Memories (for Shallan). I see the subconscious mind as the human's cognitive aspect. It would be logical to be able to perceive other cognitive aspects (which don't have a physical representation) with your own cognitive aspect. All this makes me believe that smybolheads aren't spren like the normal spren, and not spren at all by the definition I had given in the OP. However I still suppose they are spren. But different. And not splinters. Now. the Protector. IIRC he seems much more like a normal spren. Only huge and having shifting faces. I'd say that it's that big because it drains tiny parts of human's spiritual energy. We know that people feel drained after having visited it. And we know that drabs feel a loss of something, only more important than what people feel after meeting the Protector. And if the Protector has lots of tiny human souls inside itself, those tiny souls make up the Protector's personality, only with many many faces. So when he appears, all the faces he has collected over the years shift constantly. The interesting thing would be how he would be able to drain tiny parts of the souls of people. But if Syl can give spiritual energy, why shouldn't there be other beings who could take them. And then, there must be a way how parshmen can be made into super-drabs out of Parshendi. Enough for now.

The small circles contain the Surges. They are represented by glyphs. when you compare the small circles from both charts, you see that the glyphs on both charts are the same. Glyphs in-world can be written in any way, it often takes the shape of what it represents. The glyphs on the charts have the same basic lines/dots/curves. they are only arranged in a different way. That's why I always thought that second chart to be but an artistic representation of the Surgebinding-chart. Like the map of Shadesmar which is a colored in-world-window IIRC. Both have the same frame btw.

It's in my spren-theory. More precisely it's in my third and fourth premise (although I have to admit I made a mistake in numbering them, you'll get it ) And, to make it even easier, here it is: "3 – An Investiture is a transfer of the power of creation from subject to subject or from subject to object. 4 – There are two forms of Investiture: primary Investiture is the transfer of Power from a Shard to subject or object. Secondary Investitures are transfers from human to subject or object."

I wanted to say that gravity itself is a physical thing. It is in our world and I can't imagine it otherwise on Roshar. The force that prevents people from floating into space. But the physical thing is manipulated by a spritual process. I have seen your theory before, you are right of course. And afaik it's not something Brandon has said but the Ars Arcanum's author that states that I agree with you that Stormlight is a spritual force and with like everything you say. Gravity is still influencing the object or being, only in another direction. I don't like the idea (only my personal feeling) that only a spiritual bond is responsible for holding stuff in the "normal" direction. Brandon seems to put so much attention on physics, planets pull stuff down because of their huge mass. Well, this may be my limited mind and probably is. If you invent a magic system that can divert the gravitational pull then there has to be a way how to do it... I'm confused However. I wanted to point out the difference between the (Secondary) Investitures taking place in the physical realm or in the cognitive. Stormlight manifests in the physical realm and it passes from Kaladin to stone in the physical. It's effect takes place on the spiritual plane. In Soulcasting it passes from the physical to the cognitive. You see Stormlight as a pure spiritual force, which just happens to be able to be seen in the physical realm, do you? Then that's probably where we disagree. I think there is more to it, there has to be some physical part in order to trap it in gemstones and to be transported with a Highstorm. Hope you understand anything of this, I probably wouldn't myself.

This is something I just noticed. I think it could be important later on in the series. We all know the chart in the Hardcover with the nice circles with nice symbols and Herald's heads in the corners. I'd like to pull your attention to the lines connecting the big circles. The big circles represent the KR's orders. They probably also represent the Essences and the gemstone associated with the order. Every big circle has at least three lines connecting them to other circles. One for each adjacent circle and one to the circle on the opposite. The opposing circles each connect a male Herald to a female Herald. I doubt that's a coincidence. But that's not what I think to be important. In the Ars Arcanum there is that bit of information about Pairing Fabrials. Conjoiners use rubies. Reversers use amethysts. The rubies do the same, the amethysts do the opposite. You may now notice that rubies are connected to the third order, amethysts to the eight. Opposite and connected orders. I don't think it's a coincidence that the gems which have a very similar but opposite effect are connected on the chart. So there (probably) is a meaning to the lines connecting a male Herald to a female one. Something like gemstones that are connected in a way. BTW. wikipedia just told me that sapphires can be yellow, or pink. I'm glad the sapphires BS chose aren't pink.

Emphasis is mine, of course. It is this statement of Nohadon's that made me consider it. Blade and Plate seem to be a great way to encourage Surgebinders to be "better". Also, and this is my gut feeling, I believe that Blade and Plate would have been mentioned by Nohadon. As those also are given responsibility. That many power, usable by ANY person. I think it works out very well for Honor if he can ensure in some way that the immensely powerful objects he gives away are used only by honorable persons. So Blade and Plate as a reward for reaching the fifth Ideal of the KR, something like that. Maybe Honor gave them to Nohadon to let him do what he wanted with them and Nohadon only gave them to the most honorable Surgebinders. Blade and Plate are not merely a bribe. They are a reward for acting honorable, given only when you act according to the divine attribute(s) for quite a long time. I'd think it hard for someone to fake his way along to the fifth Oath. Just imagine what those will be like. If you act like them, you take the Oath, which binds yourself to it. I believe it possible to "fake" yourself to get a spren, becoming a Surgebinder. But fake your way among other Radiants, having to act honorably for (probably) years. It probably would change a person to a more honorable one, too. So, what I'm saying is, people don't obey just for the weapons but are given them when they have proven that they are worth it. Proven that they are honorable people. I think that goes along with Honor's intent. Edit: I was writing when you posted name_here, that's why we're saying the same

While there has been much discussion about why the KR abandoned their Blade and Plate (Recreance) I wonder how they got their Blade and Plate in the first place. The obvious answer is "Honor gave them to them". I believe there is some in-book quote about this. But even if that may be true, there will a lot more to the process. When, why and how did he give them to the KR? There is lots of questions about Plate and Blade. The nature of Plate and Blade I personally believe them to be objects Invested directly by Honor. To those of you who might be familiar with my terminology, they are created by Primary Investitures. Primarily Invested objects are different from Splinters though. The latter often have their own intent, seem to be sentient beings in some way. Invested objects are merely objects with proper power, meaning with power on their own: Plate can regrow, Blades cut through stone or metal. Because they are (possibly) Invested directly by Honor makes them that much more powerful than other Invested objects like Awakened rope for example. When did they appear? We know that the KR did not exist before Nohadon. But we also know that there were Surgebinders before them. What distincted KR from Surgebinders though, are the greater amount of power (which comes by following the KR's Ideals) and the Plate and Blade. So if we say that Nohadon had something to do with the creation of the KR, then Plate and Blade must have appeared about when he lived. OK, originally I didn't want to post a theory but only give us something to discuss, but I don't feel able to do this without posting the idea. You might be familiar with this theory. I still don't believe that Nohadon did change the magic system in any way. But I agree on that Nohadon was probably involved somehow. Let's say he figured out how to make use of the magic system so that spren would grant more power to KRs. (see the linked theory) But he also had to get the Surgebinders around the world to want to become a KR. Here is where the Plate and Blade step in. Nohadon made the following deal with Honor: - the KR devote themselves to be honorable and all, thus the Ideals etc. - in return they get a set of Plate and Blade Why would Honor agree to this? Well, because it serves his cause if the magic is used according to his Intent, which will help mankind in its battle against Odium. The remaining question is how Nohadon could have made that deal. In the theory I mentioned, the author claimed it to be due to a Dawnshard. I say that's as good a guess as any. Nohadon may have gained knowledge of Honor by the Heralds who must have been around during that Desolation. That's also where he came in contact with Honorblades, so probably he asked Honor for something like those. PS. That's a thought that has been flowing around my mind for quite a while, I have not thought it totally through yet, but I think it's sufficient to start a discussion, so that's all I intend