Harbour

Boom! My mind is blown. Only now i realized that it might be Shallan's personality (one of the three) who said this. Person itself isnt able to "fade away", but the "illusion" of the girl Adolin knows able. She meant it not figuratively, but literally. What looks like the SW prequel level of cringeworthy line might be one of the most obvious hints on Shallan' fragmentation.

Just random thought that came to my mind. Its pretty amazing how Kaladin is on the same wave with Shallan that he simply see Shallan as the whole all the time without even trying, and Shallan subconsciously doesnt even try to fool him, showing him just a Radiant, or just a Veil. Even in Kholinar palace when she was Veil, he calls her Shallan. It looks like its impossible for him to separate three personalities. He just see all her personalities as the parts of real Shallan. Veil is witty part of her, Shallan is sensitive, Radiant is strong. Even on that ship he talks with real Shallan, wondering how she is able to get away from the pain. Its the real Shallan who has the pain, and real Shallan speaks with him. I guess he simply is very perceptive man. Its hard to crem dung him with some illusions. And Shallan subconsciously understand that. I can hardly remember when she was so afraid to show him other personalities, while she was afraid to do this before Adolin.

In interpreted that hand holding scene differently. Shallan Adolin and most people see isnt "real" personality, while Veil and Radiant are fakes. Shallan isnt the only real personality, if to put the words better. Shallan is one of the three personalities that real Shallan consist of. And when she changed her personalities before Adolin, Adolin finally caught the Shallan, but not the Real One (because the Real One is Shallan+Veil+Radiant combination) and she fixed on this personality. Veil, then Radiant, then Shallan - finally, the one Adolin knows. Just look at Shallan' choice of words! Its like someone else finally picked up the personality appropriate for Adolin to see. Its not real Shallan he saw. To me it seemed like the real Shallan tried hard to show Adolin personality she think would be more appropriate for him to see. Shallan he knows. But not Shallan she is.

Well, if to look at first half of SA as a single book, it will have 3 acts. Hero does good in the first act and beginning of the second act, then he fails in the end of the second act, then he overcomes himself in the third act. I believe, if to put Shallan and her raltionships in that perspective, that WoK, WoR and most of OB are her 1st and 2nd acts, and ending of the OB+Book#4 will be the end of 2nd act and beginning of the 3rd act, and thats where the things will get ugly or bad. I think the same will come to her relationships too. There gonna be Epic Fail, and it is yet unseen. Or, we witnessed it in the end of the OB, just dont know this yet.

Jasnah in my opinion is too radical adept of logic and cold calculations. Kaladin need someone who can use logic better than him but tone it down a bit, living on the the same mental wave. Thats why i always find Shallan a good partner for him. She is quite a good at logic, but also pretty empathetic for Kaladin to understand her and not be irritated. If Shalladin wont happen in the following books, then i wish him to find Jasnah-Lite. Or, if Jasnah will become a little bit more empathetic, then she may suit Kaladin too.

Moash is gonna be Venom to Kaladin's Spider-Man. Im calling it.

I shake my head in confusion thinking about the amount of walls Shallan and Adolin can smash in. Its okay to have some doubts before the wedding in our life, its essential and understandable thing. But in case of Alethi's culture and in case of Shallan's personality its really a very worrisome thing. 1/3 or even half of her if not to count an indifferent Radiant really likes another dude. On part of Shallan just imagine her living with Adolin and someday thinking about the other guy. Imagine if she really will be fed up with Adolin for some reason. Slowly, even sometimes, not always. That may happen, in BS book, easily. Imagine then what a storm will engulf her. -There will be desire to break up; -there will be an understanding that its pretty bad idea in itself to break up given Kholin family and her duty as the part of that family and KR; -there will be an unbearable guilt before Adolin because it was she who convinced Adolin to marry her; -and of course there will be the fear that Adolin may notice something. Thats the list of thing that may (or may not of course) happen with Shallan if Sanderson will bring conflict in their marriage. I presonally doubt there will be just a rainbow, flowers, positiviity, happiness and butterflies flying around every day. Especially if there will be 1 year timeskip after OB. On part of Adolin its really painfull thing. In fact he told truth about Shallan and Kaladin, and Shallan even confirmed that Veil (cough part of Shallan cough) is interested in Kaladin. But she make him sure everything is gonna be okay. Yeah, poor guy. He acted strangely unselfish. He could foreseen what can happen if Shallan will let himself to stare at Kaladin. He could prevent himself from potential suffering. I guess he really loves Shallan he knows. -He will get suspicious especially if Shallan wont controll Veil; -He well fight himself to not be jealous because he is a kind man; -He will fight himself to continue to be a friend with Kaladin; -He will fight everyone to create the vision of stable family; -Ultimately he may fight own hatred thinking "She told me everything gonna be okay. Why did i listen to her?!" Of course, its just the list of potential things people are able to witness when their partners want to at least mentally cheat on them. Given Alethi culture and Shallan's personalities, the chances of these things to happen are higher than in our, real, world.

Yep, that was one of the main reasons i was disappointed too. To write such a powerfull scene and then bring that to "Hunter/Rogue/Amazon-like Veil just want some savage barbarian" trope is just beyond me. That, and also Adolin/Shallan weird resolution makes me wondering - what thoughts had alpha, beta-readers and numerous editors on that part. Its not that we all here were nitpicking. Pairings are pretty important part of any entertaining book, and i dont believe all of them thought that was a very right-written resolution. Some of all these people should have pointed at lame looking pairing lines. Thats another reason why i think everything we talking about (besides some really bad written parts) is BS intention, not lame writing. It doesnt make me feel better, nor make pairings look better though.

I actually wonder what stands out in Kaladin that makes Shallan almost dislike him and make fun of him. I mean, its not only Adolin's perfection and kind nature that attract Shallan but definitely also something repulsive in Kaladin to make her never consider him as the real candidate. Is it his prejudice towards light eyes and bouts of depression? Maybe she has too much depressing stuff in her life to pair with depressing guy? Also i wonder how the things could go if Shallan wasn't betrothed with Adolin. How much these shackles influenced her decisions and behavior? Because in actuality she never consider Kaladin as the real option. He always was more of forbidden fruit she never expected to bite. I also noticed that in OB Kaladin mostly gave up on banter with Shallan. Most of her jokes he met with a sigh. She even noticed that mentioning it in Part 4 (something like "You dont like a good banter i see" or something). I wonder what is it.

I expected Elhokar to die. He wanted to reclaim Kholinar and be the hero too much to reach these goals and stayed alive. I thought he gonna achieve these goals at least and then die, but BS went even more hardcore. That moment plus Kaladin crying made me cry too. The most powerfull scene for me, and i find it more powerfull than the last battle of the OB. I guess among the minor deaths i was surprised the most by Grave's one. I expected him to be at least some sort of Moash nemesis but... Eshonai is the winner though.

I doubt. He had many years before even the writing of WoR for someone including himself to point him on "another" triangle. I think he absolutely willingly did it. Having so much weird stuff going on i simply can believe he is THAT bad in this department, and make so many mistakes unintentionally. He plans everything about SA or at least first half of it.

Yep, that sounds like BS. I mean, really forced as hell. After everything Kaladin went through and some mental connection shared with Shallan he pulled such an uncharacteristic line. Its not him talking some insensible stuff like he sometimes (rarely) does, that kind of line is against his personality at all.

I wasnt but i see where your points come from. I absolutely got the feeling of some plot lines being undercooked or ended too soon. First Part of the book felt like one huuuuge prologue for the main story, and it was very weird to say the least. Brandon clearly set up unexpected Kaladin The Prisoner, Adolin the Investigator, Copycat Murderer lines, with great suspence, and then ended all of them in an unexpected weird way. He literally make Kaladin to fly away and Shallan to solve Adolin's problems. I remember us speculating all around about Ialai involvment and how that will turn bad for Adolin. We expected Adolin double accusation to be a holy rust moment. It could be such a clever and shocking moment. But then nothing of that happened. Shallan just used Veil and did all the job. Ialai was insignificant treat if was at all. Most of the guns, hooks and theories Sanderson left in the end of the WoR to make us wait for more pretty much were shot in the First Part or simply dealt with unexpectedly easy (Sadeas murder).

Yeah i guess its a Shardplate or at least the proto-Shardplate. Brandon just teasing us with it obviously. It would be cool if Shardplate in an "alive" form works the same way Shardblades work - its creating and removing in a moment, like the newest versions of Iron Man suits. Radiant can protect himself with it without an hour of suit up, and immediately remove it if he doesnt need it. Its pretty cool.

Im looking forward to see more of Adolin reaction on every random conversation or glance between Kaladin and Shallan in the Book 4. Actually, with him letting Shallan to practically force him into these relationships in the very end of the OB (probably) gonna end up badly for him. I bet Shallan didn't make him totally be okay with the fact that Kaladin and Shallan shared something he and Shallan didn't. If he'd stay away from Shallan he would be able relatively easy to deal with it. But now, as her husband... oh boy, i wish him luck cause he is a good guy. I dont want him to fight against himself and remind himself "But Shallan said i shouldn't worry" every time he feels something happened. BS can easily ignore that path though. I think he won't. Its a essential behavior in the human's case. You just can't ignore that. It will boggle you subconsciously. Also i wonder how Kaladin will deal with that. In the end of OB BS didn't make too much emphasis on this matter. I guess Kaladin gonna ignore them, probably will try to stay away from them most the time.

Someone have already mentioned this scene, and i decided to reread it closer. That inner dialogue could have been read from the two perspectives: literal and given the subtext. From literal perspective its all okay, even if cheesy. She encourages herself. But givent the subtext and context its all the different story. 1) Pattern usually uses his "Mmmm" with "This is a good lie". And he usually likes when Shallan does a good lie. Here he said "Mmmm, this is the good you", with emphasis on "you". It looks like he implies that she is lying good again. 2) A good me. Emphasis again and then she breathed out. It looks like she got what Pattern mean and breathed out because subconsciously she knows its a bitter truth. 3)Then she decided to go further. Why? Ill mention that later. 4)Veil and Radiant encourage her too. Again, they repeat that its the celebration of who Shallan is. The celebration of the liar. It becomes so clear. 5)What Shallan says after that just solidify my confidence. Its all right to celebrate the lie. Even if everything is terrible its okay to ignore it. Its all right. In fact here she accepts the lie as the wall to hide behind. 6)Its all right to be happy. Again the emphasis. Here Shallan basically says that by lying to herself she tries to be happy. Thats why she decide to go further. She wants to be happy. Will she be happy lying? Who knows? In fact Sanderson did a good job showing us how Shallan surround herself with the wall of lie to ignore terrible things.

Btw i like that scene. Seemed Brandon just brought it to show again that Kaladin is just smarter than Adolin (and Elhokar), not to show that he and Shallan are extremely compatible on mental level.

Hell, that thing just hit me hard, i never noticed that before. Its funny how Shallan found Kaladin more of a person of nature, wild and raw beauty, while Adolin is more of an artwork, and then turn everything upside down comparing Kaladin to an artwork to justify her choice. Ironic.

Well, i think that triangle was solved, but BS clearly (for me at least) isn't done with Shallan-Adolin-Kaladin thing, because of how it was solved. Their basis of official wedding in a nutshell: Its not a healthy foundation to end that topic. Personally i think that marriage is another challenge for Shallan (and Adolin, and Kaladin too) to get through, and the tool to make her better and more matured. Then she will either return to Adolin to finally do everything right, or she'll go to Kaladin, or she'll even prefer to be single (which is most unlikely since the humans tend to be the creatures an absolutely collective in their nature). But from details, foreshadowing and hints i definitely think BS isn't done with Kaladin-Shallan things. He won't stop teasing them, i bet it. I can hardly imagine Adolin and Shallan staying in the same status without any changes, conflicts and stuff.

Thats sounds like something directly borrowed from SW prequels (RotS is my favourite SW movie though). And we all know that BS fully aware of prequel trilogy flaws, including cheesy dialogues. Just direct quote from RotS: Also, Shallan hillariously sound like that girl who told her boyfriend not to worry about "that" guy. and follow up dialogue too.

Yep, the similar thing came to my mind right after the scene where Drehy and Skar passed Elhokar's kid to Kaladin and then Dalinar and Co choose the next King. The brief scene where Dalinar told him that he has the own lands and villages (and wasnt brought up again in this book) also adds to that theory. I believe Kaladin is totally gonna become the regent of Alethkar while the boy is growing, along with Jasnah, between the first and second half of SA. And i foresee Dalinar to become the post-physic entity by the end of the first half and that will lead Kaladin in charge of the Alethkar or humankind since he is the most fitting candidate due to Leading/Protecting aspects of the Windrunners.

Love that angle you @Naerin brought here. Absolutely agree with your view on dissonance between Shallan's opinion on Kaladin and Adolin and the reality. And that actually make me think that Sanderson did all of that on purpose. There are too many wrong things that surrounds this triangle in OB and bother me. I listed them on the first page of this thread. Maybe I mistakenly think BS is a God's Writer and he just failed to do a believable love story. But maybe he didn't fail? Maybe he intentionally made Shallan mistaking. Maybe he wanted to create this "wrong feeling" to show how teenagers are sometimes mistaken and do stupid things or analyze their feelings wrong. Maybe he did this thing to build upon it in the next books, to work on the mistakes Shallan (Adolin and Kaladin too) made. I'm very skeptical about the chances of Adolin/Shallan marriage to survive or to survive in that form through the 7 books left given that it itself was based on confusing details and probably wrong foundation.

Well if to talk about fun i see Kaladin due to his passionate nature will bring some romantic moments for Jasnah which she will appreciate. She most likely had bad experience in the past and probably view men with some exceptions as disgusting brutes. I bet she will love looking at him working hard or helping his people to do stuff. On other hand shell lesser his struggle to grasp the meaning of peace with some logic and smart moves and will ease his pain making the logical jokes about it.