Ace of Hearts

Whoops, looks like I forgot to put this up yesterday! Sorry about that! 

Additional content warning for mentions of torture

@shatteredsmooth@Silk Thanks for the feedback! It's really good to get some guidance about what's going on with Z. I think what's being hammered in here is that Z's story really isn't coming together into anything cohesive yet. I think part of Z coming across as strange is just due to how much focus there is on her *not* being a certain way (i.e. not up in arms to rescue her partner) but there's not enough actually going on to give context about what that means. I think I will either revamp this chapter or wait a bit to introduce her. 

1 hour ago, kais said:

The problem is there are so many types of intersex conditions, and they are all distinct and unique.

That's a good point. What S has (currently as written) is Klinefelter Syndrome. Skin color is mapped to the X chromosome for these people so S has the same blotchy skin patterns (due to X-inactivation) as any other mixed-race person with 2+ X chromosomes (which the culture simplifies to women). This falls into the "was vaguer than I maybe should have been due to the in-universe culture not having a ton of knowledge around this stuff." And me knowing more about the biological side than the social side since maybe this hits on bad tropes I'm unaware of. 

1 hour ago, kais said:

Ehhh. You're going to have to do a lot of groundwork to pull this off, or you'll just conflate intersex with queer issues. It'll mean having your MC basically constantly refuting that he's queer due to his calico issue, and that instead he's queer due to whatever else. Over and over. You have an opportunity here to make a really powerful statement about intersex and queer interplay, but because you're doing it from outside the community it will take a lot of careful planning.

As an example, every time I meet someone new from the queer community I have to deal with this issue. My body clearly exhibits sex traits from both sides and I am assumed to be trans. Medical providers do the same thing. And part of it is the body thing and part of it is because I'm queer too, but not because I'm intersex, but because I'm nonbinary. And it is exhausting to constantly have to separate out the two, and then more often than not, be put on a pedestal by any trans people around, or used as a lynchpin in an argument about the validity of being trans. I am not trans is a phrase I have to use at least once a day, if I'm engaged in queer spaces. So I would be shocked if your MC didn't have to navigate similar issues.

If your gut says that it's a bad idea to do what I'm proposing I do want to take that seriously. I do want to have "people who don't fit in banding together" be a running theme here (though hopefully not in a heavy-handed way), and I think it's unavoidable to some degree since the protags and non-antagonist supporting characters are all misfits in some capacity. In that case, do you think I should remove S having Klinefelter? Should I go ahead anyway and be prepared to cut it/change the story around it in the likely event that there's a lot more work to be done?

I really appreciate the example. It really helps me get a feel for what you're talking about. And thanks for the effort you've put into explaining everything to me! I don't want to take that lightly. 

On 1/26/2022 at 9:10 PM, LeonardChurch said:

Also, anyone know how to pace without an outline here? cause I'm kinda lost.

Also want to add on that as someone who does outline a bit (~3 page outline per novel), it's not like my pacing is always great either. So yeah, like others have been saying, go ahead and dive into it! You won't be missing out on anything  

On 1/23/2022 at 4:31 PM, C_Vallion said:

I  would probably say that Ala-'s main plotline through PoP is a relationship plotline

One thing I learned from researching romance stories is that for relationship plots, they generally have to establish two things. 

1. Why do the characters need to be together (typically has an emotional component)?

2. Why can't they be together? What's pulling them apart?

The contradiction here is the key. Advancing the plot requires the characters getting both closer to each other and getting pulled away more and more. And they generally have to happen at around the same time. Because it's not characters getting along or characters not getting along that is engaging, it's the pull between the two. At any given moment the relationship must be vital for the characters' well-being but also teetering on the edge of failure for stakes to be established (after learning this it made a lot more sense to me why so many romance novels depict unhealthy relationships). 

How does this relate to Ras and Ala? Right here we get all of the pulling apart but none of the need to be together (even though they do have a long shared history). So when I read it I'm like "cool. Yeah they should just be apart. End of their dynamic I guess." So why does Ala feel like he needs Ras? Does he feel lost without his mentor? Making sure this is there throughout the whole story is key, and so is ensuring that the dynamic advances both the disagreements and the need to be together. 

I'll also have a spot for the 31st as well if there's room! I notice that we have new readers so if they wanted to submit something and it would put us over 5 I'd be happy to sit out. 

All right time to get into it!

As I go:

pg 1-3. Whenever I see a glossary of character names and affiliations, I have two reactions: 1. Glad this is here! 2. ...This is going to be hard for me to follow, isn't it?

-Idk how set in stone these characters are but since nb seems fairly common here I'm curious if there's a reason why all nbs seem to use they/them exclusively. I'm guessing it's so that you dont' have to deal with the confusion of switching pronouns with an already large cast, but if you wanted you could have chars who mostly get called one pronoun who do use others.

-I'm also thinking about the one binary trans character. I think it's probably okay but I am thinking if there's a better way to represent it, since 1. it can be a source of annoyance when being trans is highlighted as a thing but being cis isn't and 2. labelling every other binary character as cis might just clutter up the page. No real suggestion here; just sharing my thoughts. 

pg 4. I want the first line/paragraph to draw me into the story's dynamic. Right now it feels like it's mostly setting the scene and it's hard to be engaged. 

pg 5. I'm already on team A. More funny names for stars/planets please

-I'm curious if the protocol is supposed to seem super restrictive in a bad way or if it's supposed to be innocuous. So much sci-fi I see is dystopian that I'm always looking out for that at the start of stories. 

pg 6. At this point I feel like I need a bit more clarity about what I'm supposed to be tracking 

pg 7. Generational punishments seems pretty dystopian! ...It feels like this isn't the main point but I also can't really tell what the main point is right now

pg 8. I don't really understand the significance of the lifeform. Part of me thinks I'm not supposed to, but in that case I think we spend too much time on it unless it's a constant lurking mystery type of thing

pg 10. As I understand it, the emotional dynamic here is that A is afraid to live on a planet and that living with constant gravity seems like a nightmare? I think I need more of this throughout the earlier pages. 

pg 11-13. Okay I'm engaged here! This gives me a fun dynamic that feels distinct and a clearer idea of what's going on. 

Overall:

Part of me wonders how useful my thoughts are going to be since I feel like a lot of the constructive feedback I bring up is true for a good deal of the sci-fi I pick up, so maybe it's a personal thing rather than issues with the story. With that preface out of the way...

Would I keep reading? If I were able to get to the part where J wakes up, then yes. As of now, I'm not sure I do. I don't think I really "get" the part with A and the lifeform. I generally understand what's happening, but I had a hard time picking up the narrative dynamics and finding points of engagement. I tend to get bogged down in sci-fi and I don't always see strong emotional dynamics that get me invested in the characters or story, and that's how I feel about the first few scenes. Funny names for the planets is fun, but I don't really see how the actions here fit together to form the kind of story I'm engaged by.

The part with J is a good hook for me. Honestly I think I understood it well enough on its own and some dynamics with A really only made sense to me after J's section. That being said I still don't get the feeling that the story has really gotten rolling yet. I'm hooked by the end, but cautious since I don't see promises of motion yet. 

On 1/25/2022 at 10:50 AM, Mandamon said:

--Z seems like she has ADHD?

Oh this doesn't really have much to do with anything but funnily enough I wrote multiple drafts without realizing that Z has ADHD. After I got diagnosed, I looked back and was like "...huh."

Ooh more feedback! Thanks everyone!

On 1/25/2022 at 0:23 PM, kais said:

My concern draws from what I see as a setup to use an intersex character as a lynchpin in a 'queer people should have rights' argument. (I also have issues with how the intersex condition is portrayed, but that's discussed below). It's important that the narrative does not conflate intersex issues with gay or trans issues. While there is some overlap, they are not the same thing. A sizable portion of the intersex community do not consider themselves queer at all. I'd suggest to be mindful of this as you continue writing. If your MC is going to have issues due to his biology, make it clear those are different issues than his sister's lesbianism. Make it clear that trans issues are not relevant, as our MC has been vocal about not being trans. If you intend this for publication, you'll need a paid sensitivity reader from the intersex community to help out (even if you, yourself, are intersex, as this hits a lot of sensitive areas for the community).

This is super helpful; thanks! I really appreciate having this inside perspective (though of course I understand that I need to get a broader view of the community too!). I think my pitfall here is that I did research on the condition itself, but I haven't learned from intersex spaces since that's not really how I've been taught to do learn. So a lot of the pitfalls I was told to avoid from articles written about intersex issues were... very very obvious and didn't cover stuff like this, since they were probably written for people who don't really understand what intersex even is. 

I'm glad you mention the trans thing. How do I make it clear that trans issues aren't present without, well, bringing up those trans issues with regards to S being intersex? My worry was that if I just ignore it but everyone sees him as having female body characteristics, he'll come across as trans rather than intersex. 

Most of S' "queer people not fitting into society" stuff is around the other ways he's queer. I assume that's fine so long as I'm clear with drawing the lines? From his perspective being intersex highlights biological and racial traits... which maybe there are still issues with, idk. To some extent though I think there is an element in the story of "people of all types who don't fit in need to band together" and that's not something I want to compromise. I hope that if I'm better at drawing those lines between intersex and (other) queer it won't be an issue to have him feel like a part of this band of misfits?

I'm also guessing that I should shift more towards "people should be precise when talking about this even if that wouldn't be usual for people in this culture?" I was already trying to lean that direction and it sounds like I need to go further? 

7 hours ago, Silk said:

Pick a thread and stick with it. S wanders through the market chasing rumours of the RA because - insert compelling reason here - and the conversations he has are tense, because people recognize his heritage (foreshadowing the conflict with the refugees) or the fact that he's intersex (giving us context for how intersex people are viewed for the culture and how he positions himself within it). Still, one or two of these conversations and maybe a very brief summary, he finds a solid lead! He also finds some disturbing implications and/or complicating factors, but they won't stop him from moving forward. Then he heads back to the palace because oh yeah, his brother is becoming an emperor today is probably going to be super mad that he missed the ceremony, only to find that: oh no! something is wrong with the palace! There's been a break in! And saving the family revelations for Ch2.

 

On 1/25/2022 at 0:23 PM, kais said:

Narrative wise, there's no inciting incident. The first few pages are interesting, but with no plot movement, the first chapter lags. I'd suggest cutting all but the first few pages and moving chapter two up, assuming it has a plot movement section that could be the kickoff for the book. All the information S gathered in the market just blew past me because I A) wasn't super invested in S yet and B.) didn't yet care about the world and C) was searching for THE MOMENT when the book narrative really starts

This matches up with what I've heard from other readers as well. My current plan is to focus more on him finding RA in this chapter--that is, have them actually make an appearance--and save the family stuff for S' next chapter since that's when he actually talks to Z's partner. 

Thanks a ton for your thoughts!  

Thanks for the feedback @kais @Mandamon! I could feel that something wasn't clicking this chapter and this helped me identify more of why. 

On 1/25/2022 at 10:50 AM, Mandamon said:

Aside from introducing Z, I'm not really sure what was accomplished.

On 1/25/2022 at 0:52 PM, kais said:

this chapter also seems to lack an inciting incident

Yeah, I think this is the key. Especially since Z is specifically *not* focusing her story around rescuing her partner, and I wanted the brother to be important but no real progress was made on that front. I think the next Z chapter is a little more focused but I'll have to see if that's also not enough. There's a big event concerning the brother's death a couple more chapters in with Z so maybe it makes more sense to start there for Z. 

On 1/25/2022 at 0:52 PM, kais said:

- pg 13: Super badass. <-- the narrative is filled with modern phrases like this that toss me out of the narrative. The world is loosely based on a sort of Arabic historical setting, yes? The people then wouldn't speak like 2010s US natives, I would think. 

This is something I see from time to time and I've never really quite understood the rationale behind, so I'm wondering if you'd be able to talk more about this. Is is really more accurate if they sound generically 18th/19th/20th century instead of generically 21st century? Or is the issue period-specific slang? I don't really consider words like "badass" to fall under that category, though maybe that's just me being a zoomer lol. I definitely understand why you wouldn't include stuff like modern internet slang but I need more help understanding why something like this is off-putting. 

Thanks again!  

Hi everyone,

Me again with the next chapter of Red Angel, and a new PoV character. Hope you all enjoy and thanks for reading!

5 hours ago, C_Vallion said:

He's also more flippant than others (other than Ro), so "damned mages" doesn't have as much heft behind it as it would if someone else had said it. 

This could be a good thing to show since right now I have no reason to not take him at face value. For example if he's grumbling about mages but then tries to do something nice for them after they heal him we get to be like "oh that's just kinda how he is." Not that it has to be this but hopefully you get what I'm saying. I think I dislike him a lot less here if this show he's putting on for himself is undercut in some way. 

4 hours ago, C_Vallion said:

Some of this is sort of intentional, in that it is meant to be the big thing that the wise-old-king was *wrong* about.  But without much time spent among the court in Part 1&2, we're only really in the heads of people who aren't concerned about it.  I'll have to keep that in mind, and maybe have Ala- a little more cautious on that front earlier on.  Or have Ras- cautious about it, since Ras- should be painted as a Trustworthy Individual earlier on (instead of in this version, where he appears in like one scene and is almost never mentioned again).

Yup I think there needs to be setup that C is dangerous even if the characters don't see it. Because while I could put two and two together, it was mostly from meta knowledge rather than anything in the story itself. Idk if you've watched Brandon's lectures but he has a whole section on this which he calls "keeping your promises."

4 hours ago, C_Vallion said:

Yeah. I do want to include a little more of the feeling of this early on. That Ala- sees himself as someone who builds things, not as someone who destroys them.

This is a dynamic I like and I think does flesh out his character relative to the others like you were saying. It wasn't until this chapter that I realized how much this story benefits from having someone like Ala who has big dreams about building things up since like you mentioned we don't really have a character with that perspective yet. Tbh if this is his main attribute in the early chapters I think I'll be more invested in him. 

4 hours ago, C_Vallion said:

This *is* a shift to Ala- moving more into the spotlight than he'd been earlier on, and should be a pretty clear escalation of earlier conflicts between him and Ras-, but those conflicts don't really exist in the version I've submitted thus far. So we'll have to see how it all pans out in the next round of revisions. 

Hmm this is an interesting idea. That Ala's conflict and plot at the begin is focused on his relationship with Ras, which to me signals that to some degree it's a relationship plot/subplot (whether the story wants it to be or not). This could definitely be a way to set up an inciting incident early on that doesn't have to be a world-shattering political shift like this, though new challenges arise. Happy to comment further but I won't make you read too much more for now since I'm not sure how much the story wants to lean into the relationship between Ala and Ras as the main conflict/plot. 

4 hours ago, C_Vallion said:

In this case, Ras isn't aware that he's done anything to act against his oath. But that isn't revealed until later. Maybe I should hang a lantern on that in Ala- and Tre-'s conversation at some point.  That Ras- wouldn't be so willing to have the oath removed if he thought he'd acted against it. 

I was wondering if this was the case. I think hanging a lantern on it could be a good idea.

4 hours ago, C_Vallion said:

Ala- will have intentionally stayed out of that side of politics because it falls too close to conversation about his parents' deaths, but after watching Is- nearly die because there was no magic available to save her, he realizes that he wants to get involved, which is closer to his inciting incident, though I need to figure out how to frame that to make it work right. 

From this alone (maybe there's more context that makes it work) I still think that's a hard sell as an inciting incident. The reason this chapter is engaging to me is because Ala is forced to deal with C and the issues surrounding it. Him realizing that he wants to get involved with magic laws isn't as powerful since there's nothing binding him to it. Knowing that he could back out of it whenever he wants to (even if I'm expecting that he won't) lowers the stakes. Though this is quite solvable if you do want an inciting incident along these lines (which, imo, comes down to something arising that means he needs these magic laws now. Like someone he's close to getting sick and needing magic healing).

4 hours ago, C_Vallion said:

Or, possibly, some random noble swears something on an oath before the king, who doesn't trust them and calls them to account, and said person goes up in flames. Because its seems like a good, clear "this is what happens when oaths aren't kept"  

Really like this idea. Pretty tried and true strategy of introducing something as a serious deal is having it kill someone and there's nothing wrong with going back to the basics! 

I'll have a slot for this Monday, please! 

As I go:

pg 1. It seems like there's been a rapid shift in how C is viewed. And to some degree, yeah killing a royal will do that, but there's something about it that still feels rather sudden. Maybe it's because I never really pictured C being a huge worry before Is and crew were attacked. 

-I like the detail about T not having adequate defenses due to past politicking. Really highlights how caught in the middle of this Ala is

pg 2. I do like the general vibe I get from this chapter so far. This feels like the inciting incident for Ala's character moreso than the stuff with Is back in part one.  

pg 3. I'm sure if this gets published it will have a map to make this clearer, but I feel like I need to understand the geography better here. Is T a tactical landing/invasion point for C? If so I think this makes this whole thing more engaging since Ala is really in trouble. 

pg 4. I don't remember the nuances of what's going on between Ala, Ale, and T, and tbh it's not really a point I'm super invested in to begin with

-insurrectionists in T? And whose mother are we talking about, and what work? 

pg 5. Oh so it's insurrectionists against the throne who are pro-magic? That does make sense. When you mentioned insurrectionists in T I was picturing an insurrection against Ala which would have been a big thing to drop on us here. 

pg 6. I really do like the base dynamics here but something still isn't clicking. Maybe we need more about what his mother's work is, what it means to Ala, and how it connects to the current situation. Right now I don't know what the stakes are.

-I think I also just don't see Ras as being super important in general which is part of my holdup here. What's the reason Ala seems to have no faith in Ras? Yeah we get the thing with the insurrectionists but his distrust seems to run deeper. A lot of these dynamics are good for building conflict but I feel like the setup isn't there. 

-And that comment was before I even got to the part where they plan to dissolve the bond. That's quite a drastic action over what feels like a minor disagreement. I also don't know what the deal is between Ras and Ala's mother so that accusation doesn't mean anything to me.

pg 8. It's been going that direction? Maybe WRS but this was not clear to me. I get that they have different ideas about what to do but dissolving all formal connections in such a turbulent time is a huge decision 

-So I'm gathering that R is super pro-magic, which I'm not sure I even realized before now. What exactly does he want to accomplish politically and why (the why can be a mystery but in that case we need to know it's a mystery)? Consolidating his character around "dude who wants magic to be legal" could help us better understand his role in the story. 

pg 9. This discussion about roads is... actually really interesting! I want to see it come earlier in the chapter so I get a better view of the geography. Ala's dynamic of "I wanted to build up infrastructure to help my people but now it's being used against us" is an interesting one. 

pg 11-12. I get that Ala is confused too but we might need a little more about what's going on. If you betray your oath, does it only manifest in situations like this, or is R actively betraying his oath only now? Ala seems to think the former, but that doesn't seem like a great oath system if you can get away with stuff for years and it only gets caught at this check in. And maybe the most important question of all: If R broke the oath, why is he going along with this if he knows it's going to be revealed?

I trust that you have the answers to these questions but I think we need more insight on them here and now.

On 1/17/2022 at 10:53 AM, C_Vallion said:

1. Anything confusing?

2. Anything that feels like it goes on too long and could use some trimming?

3. Thoughts on how the characters are coming across?

4. Any specific points of engagement/disengagement?

1. Mostly the end, as I mentioned in LbLs

2. Nothing too long in particular. Mostly it just feels like the setup isn't quite there for a lot of these beats... which as you said you're already aware of. So it's a little hard for me to assess but I think you're on the right track since you knew to comment on the setup. 

3. Ras isn't coming across for me like he needs to, but again maybe that's a setup issue.

4. How Ala has to prepare for an invasion by C and how he's going to be left out to dry potentially is a big source of engagement for me. If his military is too strong G sees him as a threat, and if it's too weak C just rolls over him. Add in his desire to build infrastructure and help his people rather than dedicating resources to war while his people struggle in the harsh environment. Like I said in the LbLs, for me this is strongest inciting incident in Ala's story I've come across so far because it ties together his ideals, motivations, and political situation (his thing with Is felt more like him stumbling onto something unrelated to his character and then not doing anything regardless since V handles it all). Of course, I'm guessing it's not meant to be because it occurs in chapter 20 when an inciting incident should be in the first couple of chapters we see from a protagonist. 

That all being said, I really do feel like his story is only starting now. I haven't seen the new setup with revisions but I can't think anything else that gets the ball rolling as much as this. Which is true for the court as well. I never really felt super engaged with the court politicking before but now it feels vital since everyone's survival is directly on the line. I know I brought this up before and I'll mention it again: if we start the story in part 2, I think a lot of my hangups with the story vanish entirely. Again, not expecting you to actually take that advice, but hopefully it can be a springboard for new ideas. 

Because I do wonder about the pace of this story overall. It seems like the story is really only getting rolling now and even after a lot of cutting we're 20 chapters in. And it's not like these are short chapters, either. How far are we into the story? 75k words? The word count Brandon recommended for new writers trying to publish epic fantasy is 125-150k in total, so while I don't know how long this is going to be I worry in general that we're getting off the ground too late. 

I do hope this comes across as encouraging since aside from the Ras stuff where I don't have proper context for the setup this is really what I've been looking for in Ala's story all this time. I just think we need to get here (or to an equivalent getting the story rolling point) much faster than we do. 

On 1/13/2022 at 0:21 PM, C_Vallion said:

Ultimately, I like the setting and worldbuilding a lot, but would be careful about what parallels you’re drawing to *Islamic* Arabia vs. a desert culture like we’d see in Arabia whether or not Islam was involved.  Especially with the characters and themes we’ll probably be dealing with.

Sticking closer to the former, you’ll probably find yourself running into a lot of pitfalls regarding how you’re presenting the religion and its interaction with the culture. If you don’t have a good handle on the theology of Islam or other monotheistic religions, I’d tread lightly in how you’re representing one in a story that will push back against anyone holding those beliefs.

There’s certainly a place to challenge said beliefs, and I think having an intersex protagonist is a good way to do that in the way I think you might be trying to. However, I think an intersex protagonist in a setting where there’s a pretty strictly two-gendered culture achieves the same goal without needing to do too much in-depth theological study to make sure you’re not running the risk of misrepresenting a set of religious beliefs [I have a comment about page 2 related to this]. You just want to make sure that the practice of the in-world religion would imply the gender norms/views you’re setting up.

 Representing real-world religions in fantasy settings can be really tricky because it’s hard to make it clear what aspects are being presented as comparable and what aspects are presented as part of the fantasy world.  Describing “Islamic Arabia with normalization of alcohol and a lack of gender segregation” very quickly ceases to be Islamic Arabia. Which is probably a safer bet anyway unless you’re really familiar with Islam or have someone who knows their theology who you can bounce ideas off of (if it was Protestantism/Catholicism, I’d volunteer. I’ve done enough study to poke a stick at tricky spots there. But I don’t know enough about Islam or Islamic cultures to be helpful as any sort of sensitivity reader or research source on that front).  I’d probably recommend taking a few clear steps further away from historical Arabia on the religion front to avoid some of those pitfalls.

Glad to hear this because this is actually exactly what I want. The issue I'm running into is that a lot of what's normal in the setting that's associated with Islam (veils, polygyny, ect.) didn't originate with Islam in Arabia, and make a lot of sense for a culture set in a desert. I do think there are probably a few too many details in there that I based off Islam though and I can try to trim those back. 

The main thing I'm wondering is if having this culture be monotheistic at all is the right choice. My rationale for that is otherwise the world ends up with a sort of "each race is so different from the others and has their own god" which was the original historical setup of the world and is kinda a tired trope in fantasy. Hmm... I'll be sure to do more thinking on this front. Even if I do keep it monotheistic the whole setup of the religion may be too close to Islam, too. With FC being a great prophet figure like you inferred. 

I'm wondering if calling out "angels" is hurting this as well since as I understand it they're mostly associated with abrahamic religions. I wonder if there's a better way to frame "divine messenger" in a way that still gives the same weight. 

On 1/13/2022 at 0:21 PM, C_Vallion said:

If you’re planning to go in-depth in developing the world’s religion, and D will be giving a thorough explanation of both that religion’s theology and this potential conflict with it, that’s one thing, but if it’s meant to be a one-line comment on a real-world religion, you might be getting yourself in trouble here, because it’s cherry-picking aspects of a religion without acknowledging that no single component of a religion exists in a vacuum.

 

Kind of, but iirc it's mostly religion from a historical lens rather than a theological one. So yeah maybe it makes sense to shift further away. I think my issue is that I'm so used to the framework of abrahamic religions that it's hard not to default to (my incomplete idea of) that. I'd be happy to hear any more comments as we go along!

On 1/13/2022 at 0:21 PM, C_Vallion said:

“rattlesnakes” – vipers? Tarantulas? Some similar unwelcome creature? I think rattlesnakes are mostly a North American thing. Depending on what you’re trying to do with cultural associations.

Oh really! Yep I looked it up and you're right there. I think vipers might be what he's looking for. 

On 1/13/2022 at 0:21 PM, C_Vallion said:

I think some of this conversation would stick better if we knew what S is expecting the angel to signify.  I feel like angels don’t have clear enough tropes attached to them for me to know if this is supposed to be a terrifying thing or an exciting thing, and S’s reactions aren’t giving me any clues.  This also seems like something that would be worth bringing in above. That this is what he’s intentionally searching for. So that the wandering feels more direct and intentional, even if it’s a little meandering because he’s looking for specific information.

 

This comment highlights that I maybe need more meat here because the truth is that currently S has no idea what it signifies. He (kinda) has opinions about what the angel represents in the abstract but doesn't know what to make of one appearing right in front of him now. But it makes sense for this to be where the story develops, not the stuff at the end that there's no context for.  

On 1/13/2022 at 0:21 PM, C_Vallion said:

The destruction of the crystal collection comes out of the blue, and while it seems like it should be a big deal, I don’t know enough about it significance for it to hit very hard.

I don’t really know anything about Z at this point, so S connecting the dots and accusing her here is less engaging than if I’d had reason to sort of connect the dots along with him. I think if there was more given about her being tied to revolutionaries (or something similar) and seems to be on the HR’s bad side, that would be helpful.

Hmm I can definitely see why this is coming across this way and I do kind of agree about the multiple chapters thing. Z is the other PoV character so just seeing her first probably helps tbh. I'll think this over. I think this ties in well to what you were saying about needing more from the angel since I'd need a new thread to end this on anyways. 

Thanks for your thoughts!

On 1/12/2022 at 10:43 AM, Mandamon said:

I thought he couldn't control it?

This is one of the things I was wondering if it would be unclear. The crystal provides a protective aura that nullifies all psychic powers, but if it's physically covered then the aura disappeared and psychic powers such as telepathy can work on the person.

On 1/12/2022 at 10:43 AM, Mandamon said:

interesting. But this is pretty rare, right? Would only intersex people be male with his coloring?

Intersex and trans, yeah. Specifically, the characters don't know this (S doesn't and some of the scholar types know a little bit), but to have the coloring someone has to have 2 or more X chromosomes. 

On 1/12/2022 at 10:43 AM, Mandamon said:

--So here I'm a little confused and I think the tell rather than show is making it more confusing. Maybe introduce another person who is a telepath and the crystal works as normal to show us the difference? Doens't have to be here. I'm fine knowing he's an empath for now. Bringing in telepaths confuses the issue.

This is a good idea. There's a telepath in the next chapter (I might bump the talk with J back so can't count on that) so that can carry through. I think the main point the story wanted to convey here was that S being an empath is rare rather than the standard (as one might assume if that's the first one they're shown), but I think I can convey that without mentioning telepaths.

On 1/12/2022 at 10:43 AM, Mandamon said:

2. I think it's actually made more confusing the few info dumps. Taking those out or making them smaller would remove those questions until you have time to answer them.

Good to hear! I'll do another pass on them. 

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone!  

As I go:

pg 2. I'm interested by the oathband thing, though I don't feel like I have enough to work with for it to be a point of engagement for now

pg 4. What does G think that this guy did? I can believe the burst of anger but insisting that he deserves worse than death for finding a horse seems really strange

pg 5-6. O is the most interesting character to me so far. I'm worried she's not going to show up much more though so idk if I should get invested

pg 6. Seems like G's anger is what he's using to cover guilt but tbh knowing that doesn't make me like him any more--or be any more engaged with his story. It doesn't seem like he's supposed to be fun to hate either

pg 7. Damned mages for healing him? I know he was raised in a culture that isn't comfortable with magic but come on dude 

-uhh should I know C?

pg 8. Is there a reason why she's shortening the names? It's not like other words are being shortened for efficiency's sake and it's not exactly a cover code either. 

pg 12. We make good progress with G finding traces of Is, but I'm not sure what this actually advances in the story. Partially because I don't know how close he is, since for all we know this could be days after Is did the ritual. What should we take away from this chapter? Right now I need a bit more help seeing it. 

On 1/10/2022 at 11:31 AM, C_Vallion said:

1. Does the second half of this chapter feel too repetitive after Is-'s previous chapter? I tried to shift the focus and trim it back to just the details that are making him misinterpret events, but I'm not sure how it comes across. 

2. Anything confusing?

3. How are the characters coming across? Does getting into G's head work with his previous character setup?  I do think I want to make him more clearly suspicious of magic from the start in the next round of revisions as well, to make his discomfort with the magic here more evident (and to add more weight to his and Is-'s frustrations with one another through Part 2).

4. Specific points of engagement?

5. Any thoughts on the rough arc of Part 2 (starting with Is- arriving in Mal-)? Anything that seemed to be missing? Anything that seemed to get too much focus? I realize this is a tricky question since Chapter 10 was submitted back at the beginning of August, but I figure it doesn't hurt to check.

1. Nope and partially because I didn't remember all of the details about how the dude died so I was right there with G lol... which means it might have felt repetitive to someone with a better memory. But my instinct is to say it's fine.

2. Nope! 

3. As you can see in my LbLs G is uh not my favorite part of this. I think part of it's personal preference, since I rarely like the stern loyal trainer figure even though there are a lot of beloved ones in fiction. What I will say about G here is that he makes too much sense to the point of not feeling distinct. It's natural that he feels guilty about losing Is since that's his duty, it's natural that he covers that with rage, and it's natural that he hates magic since he was raised in a culture that does. Which means his actions here don't give us a ton of insight into who he is. If you want to hammer home being suspicious about magic I think it has to feel personal to him for it to stand out. Not that it has to be a stereotypical "my parents died to magic" or whatever but I think there needs to be something that actively weaves his personal dynamics with magic into the story. 

O I do like a lot because unlike G she is in a distinct position of straddling two civilizations, and her opinions on what's going on interest me more because of that. 

4. Mostly O and the cultural exchange between Gil and M. Which I wasn't sure was the main point so I actively held myself back from focusing heavily on. 

5. Hmm for me the main thing is that it doesn't feel like Is' arc has been advanced much and we're just watching her try to survive instead. Like I said before I'm biased against those kinds of stories but I do think there's a lot of that for a character whose arcs are are set up around magic and politics. I'm also still not sure why Ala really matters to the main plot, though I guess I could say that about a lot of PoV characters in epic fantasy. 

On 1/10/2022 at 10:24 PM, C_Vallion said:

It's actually more relevant that this isn't something people are generally expected to do themselves. I thought I'd mentioned that, but it might have gotten trimmed back to a point of being unrecognizable as such.  Ultimately, Gil- requires magistrates to be involved with rituals most of the time, since the percentage of the population that knows the fire spell is pretty low. Usually, if someone kills someone, they're probably going to get dragged before the magistrates if they get caught anyway.

This is good to know! A couple comments:

1. The fact that people don't normally do it themselves was clear to me, and I didn't see it as a big focus because the information emphasized by that (namely that Is is in a pretty desperate situation to need to do this herself) is already clear to us. 

2. The fact that it's supposed to operate more like a trial that people get dragged to was something that I missed. I imagined this as something closer to a Catholic confession. 

On 1/10/2022 at 10:24 PM, C_Vallion said:

Or if it was accidental or self-defense, there would be an associated "trial" that them performing a ritual would fall under.   If this had all happened in the capital, she would have been walked through the process with the magistrate doing the actual spell-casting and deity-calling. But even there, they'd probably assume that it would be a simple self-defense death that wouldn't generally expect any immediate punishment/dramatic divine response.

So they wouldn't have expected that marking to appear? That was something I didn't pick up on. I just figured Is was unfamiliar with the ritual and her surprise was due to knowing the marking was coming but not having internalized it yet. 

I do still think that the ritual itself tells us little about Is and her character, but after hearing this I think the circumstances around it I'm more interested. If I'm reading this right and J's response was more dramatic than expected, it has lots of potential to bring out interesting character dynamics in Is' reaction to it, and advance plot threads.

On 1/10/2022 at 10:24 PM, C_Vallion said:

Yeah. I definitely need to find a way to convey that she's blocking her mind off from everything but the pain because the weakness/fear/emotional anguish are things she is terrified to even acknowledge, let alone feel, and physical pain is something that she has more of a concept of how to work through.  I think I mentioned that in passing somewhere in the middle or near the end, but maybe having that near the front would set the tone better, and make the moments when the walls are cracking a little clearer. 

If that's the case then my comment is that she is a little too successful in focusing only on the pain for it to be an engaging dynamic for me. I never felt the threat of her falling to her emotions... which isn't necessarily a bad thing but if that is her big struggle here we need to see some vulnerability in order to be engaged. Because under this light, she's counterintuitively totally in command, and there doesn't feel like a chance of failure on this front. 

On 1/10/2022 at 10:24 PM, C_Vallion said:

This is fair. There's a lot going on here, and I could have definitely used a few days away from it between editing passes to make sure things were coming across like they were supposed to.  But I didn't do that, so here we are.

And some things won't come across the way we want no matter how good of a job we do in the first round of editing. It's something I try to tell myself since I find it pretty easy to get discouraged by this sort of thing. 

Happy to help! 

I'd also like a spot for tomorrow!

Since this is the second version of an earlier sub I missed, I'm going to jump into this one.

As I go:

pg 1. Great opening line! 

-How long has it been since she's met her gf? 14 was the only age we were given so I'll need help seeing them as anything super different from that. 

pg 2. The way we jump from narration into scene makes me confused as to where exactly we are 

-A's line about work feels generic to me, and even though that seems to be somewhat intentional it's hard for me to get a real read on her. The concept has hooked me but the characters have not so far

-Similar note about the book writing. It's definitely more revealing, but we already know she's into girls, steamy romance lit, and probably history too from the train, so this isn't really telling me much I don't know. Imo in a short story format characters need to have striking qualities revealed about them pretty quickly

pg 3. I like the taking pieces thing! 

-I'd like to see more about why J is having such a hard time proposing. Again I think my hangup isn't with lack of sense; it's that it makes too much sense. The fact that almost anyone would be nervous in her situation means that I don't find her challenge here to feel distinct or personal to her 

pg 4. I feel like there's gotta be a way to tactfully ask about why she wants to keep train pieces. I feel like I'm supposed to believe that these people are very connected with each other but their communication difficulty has me... not exactly worried, per se, but I wouldn't have guessed they were close enough to be on the brink of marriage. 

pg 6. The train spirit thing is really catching my interest, and I want to see more hints of it earlier on so that it hooks me from the start instead of 6 pages in. I can see where the story's trying to go with the ghost stories, but at the time I didn't feel like I had any reason to take them literally. I want to feel like something's clearly off that I don't know how to place (though other effects could work just as well, of course)

pg 7. Ah so the communication conflict I saw before on pg. 3 was intentional. I think this could be called out earlier. I get that J isn't fully aware that she thinks A is keeping secrets until it happens, but hanging a lantern on the communication barriers or lack of trust there earlier on could still help I think

pg 8. I don't feel like I'm getting enough about the spirits. If they're, like, cognitively equivalent to humans then them moving to drown these two people in the lake (even as collateral damage) is awful. If they're closer to raw emotion and don't think the same way humans do this starts to make more sense. 

pg 11. If J doesn't trust the ghosts, why is she not booking it the moment she gets out of the train?

pg 13. I'm getting a really good feeling for their conflict here, and this is the first time I feel fully engaged by the conflict in their relationship. If these ideas of trust and secrets are as integral to the story as I'm guessing, I need more setup in the early pages to hook me. 

pg 14. Idk if this is the intention but I'm really worried about J. Sticking with someone because you don't see another way to live is, uh, not great. This all kinda reminds me of the time I was in a codependent relationship that was never going to end well. 

pg 15. Random q but why does an author like A have chainsaws lying around? I haven't thought about the physical setting of where they live much but if it's a more rural/forested area it might prevent me from questioning this. Plus emphasizing where they are helps me picture where they are a bit better, which right now I don't feel like I have a great idea of

-Oh so A has ADHD. I'm pretty certain that's an intentional callout. I'd prefer to know something this integral about her earlier on, and nothing before really screamed ADHD to me. Though I don't think it's vital to do so.

pg 17. The kitten appearing feels a little random to me

pg 19. This could be a personal thing (and is an issue I have with a lot of romance tbh) but I'm really not sure I believe they're good for each other.

On 1/3/2022 at 9:52 AM, shatteredsmooth said:

• Which emotional beats are still missing or still need to be cranked up?
• Does the set up work better for the haunting?
• Should I add more visual description of the setting?
• Is the end more earned now? 

1. In terms of beats to crank up, I think the ideas within the story are solid but could use clearer setup. On the supernatural side, I think we need more about the ghosts early. Hearing that there are ghost stories doesn't give me any reason to think that they're real on their own. This isn't to say that we need to see the ghosts, but there should be something the story is focusing on that tells us there's more going on than meets the eye. On the romance side, the ideas of secrets and deceit, and how J deals with them both in herself and in A, doesn't really feel like a focus until a good deal of the way through, and I think it needs to be there earlier.

2. Hmm can't speak about the last draft but I saw the haunting as more of an aesthetic thing and only recognized it was literal when it happened.

3. That would help me, yeah. 

4. Honestly... not quite. As much as I like romance, one of the gripes I have about the genre is that it's hard to get endings that feel earned because the romance plot demands a showy love declaration over characters actually working out their problems. The conflict here is great! The secrets, lies, and trust dynamics hit hard given how fundamental they are to their relationship. But the characters don't really solve that problem other than (kinda) saying that they'll stop doing it. I think there needs to be a firmer thematic resolution to these strong ideas you've set up. The kitten thing is sweet but imo doesn't really connect to the story's main ideas in its current form. 

I'm going to shill this book since I just finished reading it and it has a lot of the same ideas of trust and lies that I found interesting here too. The singular romance book I've read (out of not a ton tbf) that I feel like has the characters actually work out their problems in a compelling way is called "Hold Me Closer Toni Danzig." Highly recommend if you don't mind stuff that's somewhat sexually explicit. It's a novella so pretty quick read too. 

Another unrelated note about the romance genre is that I want to be more connected with these characters than I am. As I'm guessing you know, romance plots are pretty cookie-cutter so the characters really have to do the heavy lifting. The ones here have a lot of good moments but I think there's room for improvement. In particular what I'm looking for are specific, distinct personality details. Right now I don't feel like I really know them on a deep level as people, which I think comes from how so much of what we learn about them fits neatly into place without telling us too much about who they are. I think there's more room for specific quirks, likes/dislikes, values, memories, ect. to surface. 

Good luck editing! 

6 hours ago, C_Vallion said:

I think going straight from the prologue to Ch 1 could add more weight to some of the conversation here.

Maybe! Though tbh I'd need a bit more help to see it. So far the potential of political upheaval in ch. 1 seems disconnected from the magic mishap in the prologue--I know that there is a connection in the mage rebellion and magic laws, but I think we'd need more about that for this to work. Which requires a whole separate dimension of worldbuilding when some people say this is already a lot. Though I can picture it being really good once it all comes together. 

6 hours ago, C_Vallion said:

Because I do want it to start out with her being under the impression that she (also, Dad) has everything under control, even if the court is trying to make things difficult. 

Tbh I think this is going to be a difficult thing to consolidate with what this chapter wants to be right now. Particularly that V has everything under control. With this perspective it makes me understand why the story was going for Is and R bickering about minor things in previous drafts--after all, if she thinks things are under control it makes sense to focus on what she can't control--which is R (though it's clear that this wasn't the right direction for the story). A part of me does wonder what the story actually gains by having Is think everything's under control, though I'm sure there are ways to keep it there. 

Maybe I'm overcomplicating things. I think it comes down to stakes. If Is messes up, what are the consequences? If they're focused around her not being able to talk sense into R, we might need more tangible stakes on that front. What consequences have R's behavior led to before, why are they extra-important now, and how does it connect to the world around them in tangible ways? 

I don't read/know much about middle-grade but I'll do my best! 

As I go:

pg 1. Love the first line. Usually I hate it when stories start in dialogue but it works for me here.

-I think I need to feel a stronger connection between B and this duck. It's believable that he'd react this way but I think I need to see a bit more of where that comes from. Something like a meaningful moment he has with the duck (just throwing stuff out there). I think that's especially important because he's adamant about this duck not being able to be replaced by another duck. 

pg 3. I don't see what the first half of the page adds to the story, currently

-skin shriveling is a pretty... intense way of describing that. I have to admit that image never crossed my mind. Is this a common thing for other swimmers to think about? The muscles aching does seem on point, though. There's something satisfying about it... even as someone who kinda hated swimming. 

-"Intergalactic" gave me a bit of whiplash. Potentially fine if people are expecting space stuff from cover/synopsis though. 

pg 4. I like the coach's line at the bottom. The fact that they're not saying "it's bad to damage property!" and is instead saying "you didn't do a good job of actually affecting him so the vandalism was pointless" is refreshing for a mentor figure and has some interesting implications about their politics 

pg 5. The couple paragraphs about Q was exactly what I wanted back in page 1. Any chance it could be moved up? Also would tell me that this is a space setting on page 1 which would be helpful.

On 12/27/2021 at 0:50 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

1. Does this hook you into the story? 

2. Does the character sound like a kid? Is the voice strong enough?

3. What about world-building? Too much? Too little? Just right?

4. Based on this opening, what do you expect the book to be about? What promises is the narrative making? 

1. I'd say yes, though mostly because of the dynamic between B and the coach, so I'd be a little tentative going forward because I'm not sure how much of a focus that will be in the larger story.

2. Not a middle-grade reader but yeah. He does sound mature for his age which I see as a positive. Kid protags in fiction always seemed... especially childish to me as a kid. 

3. I think the worldbuilding taking the backseat a bit is fine, but what we do get I'd like to see earlier since it 1. Doesn't force me to reimagine the story halfway through the chapter and 2. fleshes out character dynamics more

4. I'm expecting a sports story, though most sports stories I know are about team sports so I'm not sure what will be done here without all the "power of teamwork" stuff. I mean obviously he could swim relays but that doesn't seem to be what's being set up, and it's not like those require a ton of coordination anyways. Also I'm guessing there will be lots of focus around economic inequality which I'm here for. It's presented in a way that I think I would have liked as an 8-10 year old (when I did most of my middle-grade reading). 

I glanced over other comments and once again I seem to have very different reactions from a lot of people. Huh. Hopefully you can figure out what to do with that because it's too late for me to think about this any more. 

Slowly making my way through old subs...

As I go:

pg 1-3. This is a lot of space dedicated to this visceral survival stuff. Which isn't a bad thing but I worry that too many people like me won't be as interested in the content due to personal preference since this isn't why I got engaged with the story and people who find this kind of thing compelling would want more earlier on. 

pg 4. Just airing my thoughts as I go: I think my current hangup is that I'm not understanding how this surivial/pain stuff is advancing the story's ideas. Though like I mentioned a personal bias against this kind of thing probably isn't helping. 

pg 5. My first moment of being hooked in the chapter is about how her injuries relate to magic and healing. 

pg 7. Is the idea that if she dies before getting to do the ritual, she'll get condemned in the afterlife? Again I have a personal thing of usually not finding that kind of motivation super interesting in general but I do feel like it's a little basic. Mostly because if it's something everyone is expected to do in her situation, it really tells us little about her character that she's doing this. I'd like to for the story to either fast-forward through this or go further in and explore Is' connection to this ritual in a way that's more personal. Maybe that shows up later but I feel like I need at least hints of it now.

pg. 8. The J is a deity, right? So far the most interesting thing about the ritual is how she views them (him? Can't remember if they're gendered) as maybe having a different view than a reasonable person. I'm interested in whether that means "The J's view is higher than we lesser mortals can comprehend" or "The J isn't reasonable sometimes but I gotta play along so I don't get smited to hell." 

pg 9-11. I think the story's on the right track because I can feel that this should be impactful, and it's the right place for something like this. My hangup is that right now I don't know how this advances the story's ideas. Religion has felt like more of a background fixture so far, though I'm starting to see what you mean with wanting to put more focus on the vows early since that would make this seem less jarring. 

pg 12. It's good that the story is setting up this mystery to convey that we shouldn't know exactly what's going on either, but I also don't really feel the stakes of whether or not Is figures out her magic stuff. 

On 12/20/2021 at 9:23 PM, C_Vallion said:

• Anything confusing?
• Thoughts on the ritual?  Does it feel too much like it’s coming in out of the blue? I made some adjustments to try to help that a little bit (both here and in the previous couple of chapters) but I have a feeling it’s going to feel a little out of place until I rework Part 1 to include more information about the magic and judicial system in Ala's early chapters.
• Does it feel like the “in pain” point is pushed too much?  When I had my pre-reader look at it, it seemed to fall too much on the “do you need to remind us of this so much?” side of things, so I trimmed it back a bit, but I also don’t want to lean too far in the “Oh. So she’s fine now?” direction. And until I let it sit for a couple weeks, my opinion won’t be reliable.
• Points of interest or engagement?

1. Nothing I can think of!

2. Yup does feel a bit out of the blue. I think using part 1 to contextualize this will help with that point, but I still have the lingering question of what this does for Is' character and the ideas of the story. Mostly because if this is such a standard thing to do in the world in this situation, is it really telling us that much that Is is doing it? So far it seems like the price she has to pay is the biggest candidate for a strong story beat to come out of this since it has the potential to be personalized, which means that we might need more info about her price here to understand why we should care. Not necessarily more answers, but more hints or why we should care about those hints. Though that's one of many routes the story could take in revision to deepen the chapter's connection to Is' character. 

3. I personally think that yes it is still, though like I mentioned it's something I don't tend to love in stories even when it's done "well". My main hangup is that pain itself really tells us little about her character. How she reacts to the pain can, sure, but the experience of her being in pain for multiple pages feels more like it's there to convey a sensation than aid in telling a story, if that makes sense. Which... is also often how I feel even in media where people say it's done well, so idk. And while this isn't just pure pain and she does do stuff while she is in pain, I don't find it to be delving into the parts of her character I find interesting given how much pain colors everything she does.  

4. To me this chapter had more of a feel of "a bunch of things that almost work and I can see where they could be going" rather than being hooked by one aspect in particular. For example, the hints of Is' religious views and a potential personalized cost she pays for the ritual have real potential to be interesting, but I don't feel like I get enough to be fully engaged.