alder24

SA, sorry, last time

I just explained it on the previous page. Burn rate is constant, no matter the amount of attribute in it. It's the exact opposite The burn rate is determined by the type of metal. That's it. He can't burn because he didn't ingest the Bands. They have to be inside of his body. And there was so much attribute in them, that simply tapping them gave him more than compounding would.

SA spoilers:

No. As I understand it now, size has nothing to do with how fast metalmind is being burnt. It only depends on the type of metal. Burn rate for the same metal is the same, it is constant, no matter the size or the amount of investiture. And thus the amount of attribute provided by compounding per second is constant. You won't move with mach 1 while burning a metalmind, as it requires 40x compression. That's too much. The power of a compounder doesn't come purely out of burning metals, no, they burn metals to accumulate ridiculous amounts of attributes in their metalminds and then they just simply tap that metalmind, like a normal feruchemist, not burn them. That what Miles was doing, he was just tapping his metalminds. He didn't burn them to heal, just tapped them But because he had so many attribute stored, he could tap it with 20x compression without worrying that he would run out of attribute. Marasi and Wax didn't burn the Bands. They just tap them like normal metalmind. That's it.

No. The same garnet gems that Fused fabrial was composed of, was in a crystal column in the same configuration. I don't even remember if they were bigger, or the same size. But they were on the column. The gems you are talking about are outside the column and they Soulcast air around it into a glass sphere. The effects of the suppression fabrial was likely carried through the tower's vain walls. Yes, it will be tricky. F-zinc and F-steel would help. Yes. But savant can change the shape of the bubble so it avoids aluminum.

That sounds good. Good job on fixing the problem!

Godspren is more invested for sure, but it's not the whole Sibling that is the Suppressor fabrial, it's only 4 gems among thousands, and depending on how compressed Light can get when it's held in those gems, it could have weaker effect. It's not about the amount of investiture in Sibling, only in those 4 gems. Sibling can power them for indefinite time, but they can only put so much investiture in gems. I agree. Prevent it from being healed if cracked. If a segment gets destroyed, it can leech a Radiant. Even if, with F-zinc, A-electrum and F-steel giving you 2x attributes, and aluminum canes, Mistborn can easily parry most Shardblades cuts. Put some strong core (Tungsten?) in those dueling canes and they would withstand Plate strikes. But yeah, so multiple aluminum canes for back up (if we gonna continue giving them more, we end up giving both of them Dawnshards ) And that's when cubes come into play! With good coordination, you throw a cube at them, shoot and push bullets. They can't use reverse lashing. But it has to be done very quickly, when Windrunner isn't moving that fast. Yes, when placed and a bubble goes through it, it would pop. But Mistborn can avoid putting bubbles in those places. Tieing them to a Shardplate is a good move. Savant bubbles can move with a Mistborn and change shapes, so it would be far harder to affect them when they are being placed.

You don't have diminishing returns during compounding, when you store compounded attribute in another metalminds. Deminishing returns are only because of compression to a greater tapping rate. You don't have that compression during compounding if you have metalmind. If you don't have any space available in a metalmind, the attribute is releasd into your body, and it is compress to match burn rate. So you still gain more attribute than you have, and achive far greater tapping rate than you would be able to do with inpunt attribute. Never. Allomancy is always end-positive, the power is gained from outside sources, that's what this means. Because when compounding you always gain some x time more than you input, you always gain more. You can't gain less than you put in. I don't understand you. You don't compound all stored attribute in a single moment. You burn it over some time. Let say steelmind is burned for 1 min per 1 g. For each minute that passes you gain 10x the attribute that you lost during that 1 minute. The attribute in a metalmind is only a filter to the power coming directly from Preservation. Your allomantic strength determinantes how big multiplyer there is, but it would always be greater than 1, because Allomancy is end-positive. You would always gain more attribute. And there is no diminishing returns during compounding, when you put that straight into another metalmind. I don't understand how you come up with this conclusion. Compounding is a multiplier. It multiplies what you put in, and it is a constant value. If it's x10, then no matter the amount of stored attribute, it will multiply all of that by 10. 1h -> 10h, 10h -> 100h, 100h -> 1000h. The bigger the amount of attributes in the metalmind, the greater is the gain you have. You don't tap the metalmind when you compounding, you just burn it without doing anything to that attribute. You are burning the metalmind just like it is an allomantic metal. There is no reason for it to be compressed. You don't tap it, you just burn it, and the new attribute is coming directly from Preservation. The difference is Brandon has accurate math and values for all his problems, when we are doing ours based only on assumptions. Every number in our math is assumed to be true. Brandon has even the values for how much investiture can be stored in metals/spheres - we don't. Oh. My. Stormfater. Rust and Ruin! And I was so happy that I figured it out... It doesn't make sense with previous WoB. So while metalmind is not burnt, investiture is equally distributed across the whole metalmind, but when it is burnt, it gets focused with some constant density and works like I just described?

If that's the case then you're likely right. I don't remember this being said except for a gemstone.

Well, google search for origin of the word ardent: Origin: Middle English: from Old French ardant from Latin ardens, ardent-, from ardere ‘to burn’.

I imagine he could access metalminds above the cut. But he would have to survive spiking, which likely would be done by being in the middle of tapping a goldmind. Cut through legs. The body is still working, but your connection to those cut off parts are severed, as your soul is severed. If you survived. Death is likely looking the same as it should, as muscles aren't locked in place (bridgeman cut by Szeth would be unable to change his leg position). But I agree, as long as a person has enough investiture to heal shardblade cuts, and can assess them, he would be able to heal cuts to a spine or even head. If he runs out, then there is still a chance to bring him back with the use of an external source of investiture (like Szeth was killed by a Shardblade cut before Brandon changed it).

Oh boy, my poor brain. So we need to know how was the attribute stored in the Bands to determinate how much Marasi did used. Was it 80% of speed per 1h? 50%? We don't know. Becasue it does matter when tapping at that high rate, as attribute is compressed. And deminishing returns are very important here, we can't just leave them out of this. And we don't know if all metals in the Bands were equal size. We can't really estimate how much speed was in the Bands as there is too many unknown values, and the steelmind was only mostly drained, not fully. You could reach Mach 1 with any amount of stored attribute, but with very small amounts it would last for such short time, that you wouldn't be able to move a muscle, so not really useful. For math, I won't try to do it, the best example was already done here by @therunner, so let's use his math to answer your question. So by using this equation: x/n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1) = t , where x is the amount of stored attribute, n is the tapping rate (40 for Mach 1, base speed is 9m/s), and t is the time you would get, and reversing it to find x, I calculated that you would need 11 969 333,49 hours (which is 43*10^9 seconds) of 100% speed stored per every hour, to be able to move at Mach 1 for 2 seconds. Does it answer your question? I hope I calculated it correctly. What do you not understand with my explanation? I can try explaining it again.

Possibly, but likely compounding levels of health would be needed, or a very big goldmind. You are not just healing the soul, you are replacing a stolen part of your soul with a path of investiture, so you need to give as much as it was taken from you, and it would still leave a scar on your soul.

There is a pulse, it's like burning aluminum, which produces a pulse (Inquisitors were able to immediately tell that Vin burned aluminum, without her telling them, they sense it with bronze). Cube would produce a allomantic aluminum pulse. It's speculative. While they do, compared to water, with density of 997 kg/m^3, and water vapor, 0.013 kg/m^3, few jars of liquid, concentrated Dor can hold more invesiture than Sibling can use. I know this, I was thinking about Lerasium alloy/hemalurgy to increase strength of Allomacy without aluminum. I wasn't clear enough, and I don't know now if it would work like that. I didn't suggest that, only that he can step outside, charge the cube and throw it in a different area if suppression fabrial already work. But what would happen if the suppression fabrial is working and moving, and the cube is working and moving, both are on a path towards each other, which one would win? No idea. It would probably depend on the strength they both have. But when you charge it for longer it lasts longer, while being on the same power level, based on pure investiture you provide. Didn't the Edgedancer (not Lift, there was another) in that room also passed out? Diminishers and Augmenters aren't categorized by a type of Spren they used, but by the effects they have (metal used in them). Half-shards are Augmenters, which possibly holds High Spren in them. Suppressor fabrial used by Fused isn't from a higher spren, as those are being Enlightened only recently, but the fabrial was developed thousands of years before True Desolation. So it's made of regular Enlightened spren. And don't try to argue, that they would bring Sibling with them to fight Mistborn! So about Aluminum cube, I guess I have to agree it would work like a Suppressor fabrial and could be overcome. So you're likely right. Because it is Allomancy, not just aluminum. But I can argue that Mistborn powered by liquid Dor would be able to make it strong enough to block 5th Ideal Radiant from using Surges, summoning Shardblade etc. Liquid Dor is more concentrated than Stormlight, so it can provide more powerful effects. But keep in mind, that even if a cube would take away all surges, Mistborn can't walk into cube's area, nor can he use Allomancy directly on Radiant, so he still have to come up with a crafty way to break his plate from afar, because as soon as Radiant walks out of cube's range, he can use Surges again, and his Stormlight wasn't leech at all. So aluminum cubes aren't all powerful weapons, but very handy ones, especially when countering fabrials. Chromium cubes would be better for most situations, as those get rid of Stormlight. Bunch of? Why not one? But yeah, why not... Aluminum dueling canes and aluminum guns and rifles for Mistborn, so he can finally stop Shardblades? And add F-steel to his medallion as a final metal. Let's go steel compounding fueled by Dor!! If he can store Dor in nicrosilmind, he would be able to compound it and gain more Dor! If! But aluminum tubes are weird. Mistborn won't create a bubble in place when that tube would pop it, so Radiant would have to manually insert a tube into the bubble, which lasts only for seconds or less, so he doesn't really have time for that in most situations.

What Set did was use spike to steal the extra Preservation's fragment that every person has in their soul without killing that person. However they didn't figure out the way to turn it into Metalborn power. This spike contains only raw investiture, not an attribute (like strength, attributes are likely needed for Blessings) nor powers (like Feruchemy or Allomancy), just raw power that can be turned into attribute/powers, but they don't know how to do this yet. So it is a step in the direction you're talking about but more is needed still. Then there is another problem. By taking away that extra Preservation's fragment, people are severely damaged, and their health is drastically diminished. Hemalurgy always hurts. So while they are still alive, their soul has now a hole, and they are less invested which gives them problems with health and mental health. That's why I don't think Harmony would still allow to make new spikes even with this method, as it hurts people and leaves them scared.

So regrowth Fabrial that has a sphere of strong healing influence? But activates only when you're dead? The first part is likely easy, but the second part I don't know. I don't think you can get healed by medallions once you're dead. Your soul and cognitive aspect are separated from your body, so there is nothing that can tap medallions now. But then there is Wax, who tapped the Bands of Mourning when his soul and mind was separated from his body. But while in book Harmony said: There is WoB contradicting this.

The Mistborn series is very good. I reread it a few months ago and I'm still living in this world. It's just so good. Do you remember why you stopped? And are you planning on starting a thread like this one for Mistborn too? So jealous. I have to wait 10 more days until it gets released in my country. 10 days, so close yet so far. I probably consume whole it in one night

So I was going to answer yesterday, but then I realized that there is a WoB that seriously threatens my understanding of Compounding. There are two ways of interpreting Brandon's words "only until the small portion of gold Invested with his Investiture ran out" investiture is equally distributed across whole metalmind and thus gold invested part will ran out only when whole gold is burned away investiture is not equally distributed across metalmind and takes up a fixed amount of volume, with rest of the metalmind being completely empty, so only invested part is compounded, and after it runs out, rest of gold is burn as a normal allomantic metal. I think we can all agree that the correct interpretation is the second one. Thus it means that investiture inside a metalmind isn't spread across its whole volume (like a gas in a room) but takes up a fixed amount of space, and investiture density per that space doesn't change (like boxes put in the room, next to each other). Until this point I thought that investiture spreads equally within metalmind, and more invested metalmind is more densely packed with investiture, so burn rate should change. But this is not a case anymore. Let's say that 50% of strength per 1h stored for 1h is 1 unit of investiture, which takes up 1 nm^3 of space inside a metalmind. Putting more units of attribute into that metalmind will not be put in the same space that is currently occupied, but next to it (like storing boxes in a room by putting them next to each other). This means that during compounding you burn only the invested part of a metalmind, and since that invested part of metalminds is equally invested, the burn rate must be the same. Basically you divide a metalmind into an invested metalmind, and regular metal, after you burn away invested metalmind, you're left with regular metal. The more invested is metalmind, the bigger that invested part is, and the smaller is the regular metal part of that metalmind. Every part of invested metalmind you compound contains the same amount of investiture, so the burn rate can't depend on that. This can also explain why Inquisitors had such troubles with compounding during Ruin's rule, as they didn't understand the difference between invested part of the metalmind, and not invested, and were burning only non-invested part of the metalminds. But this also means that a skilled coinshooter can distinguish between the invested part of a metalmind, and non-invested and push only non-invested part of the metalminds without any resistance. Which is weird. This also means that per metalmind you get a constant amount of attributes per second during compounding. The burn rate then depends only on a metal, and attribute it stores - so power provided by Preservation does different work depending on which attribute it turns into. Steel speed would be more work intense than a iron weight, so steel would burn faster than iron, but all steelminds burns at the same rate no matter the amount of investiture stored in them, as you burn only invested part which has constant investiture density per metal volume. Possibly a tinmind can have a bit different burn rates as eyesight might require more work than a hearing, so hearing-mind would burn slower than seeing-mind - but that's speculations. @therunner @Frustration @Tamriel Wolfsbaine Do you understand my messy explanation? Does it make sense? Now just for you Tamriel, let's put some numbers into it, all are just assumptions as we don't have any knowledge about it for now. So it isn't true, and I agree with @Trusk'our that we can't calculate compounding, as we have 0 values and numbers to go with. But we can assume that we gain a general idea of what is going on. And I will also use a trick. Let's just assume we have a steelmind that is 1% full. That 1% stores an attribute of value 50%/1h stored for 10h. The burn rate of that metalmind is constant, and is 1%/1min. The compounding multiplier is 10x, so you'll gain 10x the attribute you burn, because of your Allomantic strength. What we can do is during compounding we can store gained attributes back into that metalmind, until it's 100% full and we basically burn away that metalmind gaining even more attribute. No that's means for every 1 minute of compounding, you burn away 1% of metalmind volume, and gain 10% of attribute that takes up 10% of its volume. So after 1 minute of compounding, 1% of metalmind is burned away, 10% is filled with new attribute, so the whole metalmind is now on 11% full (where 1% is gone). So you need to burn around 9.1% of your metalmind to gain around 91% of attribute, which would take a total space of 100% in that metalmind. After 9.1 minutes of compounding, your metalmind is now full, and stores the remaining 91% of its starting volume stores now 50%/1h stored for 910h. You can compound it again, and fully burn away that metalmind, to gain a total of 50%/1h stored for 9100h during 91 minutes of burning that metalmind. You can store it in another bigger metalmind, or if not, this attribute would get compressed and used by your body per every minute of burning. So per every minute of burning, you gain 50%/1h stored for 100h compressed to extreme values to be used in every minute - which I calculated in excel without diminishing returns, would give you a little less than 800% (your base speed 100% + 700% gained from compounding) speed for every 1 minute of compounding. But that's without diminishing returns, with them it would be closer to 500% but that's a guess. Keep in mind, those are not the real values present in compounding. All of this is assumptions. It's just to give a vague idea of how much attribute you can gain during compounding, while storing it back to a burning metalmind to make it full. So none of this is representative to real compounding. Here is something I don't understand. In books it's explained that "you are half as strong for an hour, and you can be twice as strong for an hour". But using percentages it is be 50% while storing, and 200% while tapping for an hour. But the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) says be 50% when storing and 150% when tapping for an hour. So which one is it? I'm I stupid and don't understand something here? The WoB version is additive percentages, while the books descriptions are multiplicative. I assumed the WoB version during those calculations. I'm probably stupid here, but for me those are two different versions. I don't agree. The power comes from Preservation. There are multitude of WoBs and explanations proving this, power comes from Preservation during compounding as this is just like a regular Allomancy, and regular Allomancy is fueled by Preservation. So power comes from Preservation, is filtered by a metal and attribute stored in it, and turned into that attribute. And that is the work I was talking about, the power does a work, turning into attribute, more demanding attribute, more work is done, faster the burn rate. Like weight vs speed. Likely nicrosilminds would be the fastes to burned, followed by chromium, duralumin and aluminum. Yes, that's what I think, metalmind and attribute it stores is burned away and lost. All you get comes from Preservation's power.

With which I disagree. Both ironminds have the same size, so the full one would provide more investiture per second, thus giving more energy, thus doing more work, and per WoB, more work = faster burn rate.

But the power literally comes directly from Preservation. The investiture in metalminds is only a filter for power coming from Preservation. What are you talking about? I don't understand you now. Do you also suggest that metalminds made out of different metals would all burn at the same rate?

Does it? Cracks in a segment are enough to push a spear and hurt the body behind, so I would argue that investiture would very slowly be leeched through cracks in a plate. Mistborn can, A-bronze. I realized when writing that post that she can unmake sprens, and somehow I corrected only half of the sentence. You're right. Do they? Does Glys have only Odium investiture in it, or is it a combination of Odium/Honor/Cultivation? I don't think he could create the Truthwatcher bond if it was the first option. Yes, unless cube has enough investiture to overcome suppression. Supression fabrial has the room sized area of effect. So he can just step outside. It doesn't make sense, because you would need a huge spike for it, like a planet size spike. Does it? I thought charging it gives it the same strength based on allomantic strength, and the longer you charge it the longer it lasts. Because Sibling is limited by the size of the gems. Sibling's effect is mostly the same as Fused fabrial effect (as being 4th ideal overcomes it) . So Sibling only makes the area larger. Aluminum allomancy is limited by the source of the power, so Dor power aluminum (which is liquid, much denser than gas) would be stronger. I fully understand your points. I don't know what to think, my brain vaporized. I have to sleep on this. Aluminum allomancy burns away your metals, and being a stronger allomancer doesn't make you immune to its effects. Suppression fabrial is diminishing, which doesn't prevent, just diminishes the power, so that's why you can overcome it.

What? It is. The power comes from Preservations and metalminds acts like an Aon, through which the power comes. It goes through metalmind, which changes what power does, but that power still does work, so the burn rate is increasing by the amount of work done by that power. You don't lose a power, as per every unit of investiture within a gram of metalmind you gain x times more, x>1. You always gain more power. You don't store compressed attributes in metalminds. Compression is happening when you are tapping that metalmind at greater speed than stored. What you have in your metalminds is 50% speed per 1h stored for 6h for example. This is some z units of investiture. That z unit is stored in y grams of metals. So you have z/y. You will always gain investiture in compounding as that is a multiplier x, x>1. That is where we don't understand each other. In my opinion time to burn metalminds depends on the amount of investiture in it. So you can't just say "by 1s". You need a mass of metalmind and amount of investiture in it to determine how fast it would be burnt. You calculate how much investiture per gram is there and multiply it by compounding factor x, x>1. You always gain with it. Mathematically it's impossible for you to lose investiture while compounding. In my opinion it will always be burnt faster than A-metal, but the more investiture in it, the faster it would be burnt as more work is done by the power coming from Preservation. So if you have 3 g metalmind, storing 3 units of investiture, it gives you 1 u/g in that metalmind, and a burn rate would be t (let's say 1 min per 1g, so 3 min to burn it all). If you have 30g metalmind (the same metal), storing 30 units of investiture, it would still have 1 u/g, which would be have still the same burn rate t, but you can burn it 10x longer, as it's 10x bigger metalmind (30 min to burn it all). But the burn rate depends on the unit/gram value (and a metal). So the same sized metalminds, each with different amounts of investiture in it (just raw investiture) would each be burnt at different speeds. The more investiture in them, the faster they are being burnt. You get what I'm saying now? That's at least my understanding of that.

Welcome to the Shard. Nicrosilmind stores the ability to use invested arts, like Allomancy, not investiture on its own. So you can store Allomancy there and as a Mistborn drawing power from Preservation become a savant in normal amount of time, but just tapping metalmind isn't likely to make you a savant. Tapping metalminds makes you a Feruchemical savant, which is unlikely to happen for regular Feruchemist because they draw the power from themself, not external source. You can become Feruchemical savant by being a compounder or using lots of unkeyed metalminds. WoB:

Let's say you have 2 metalminds, each weighing 3 grams, the same metal. A-mind has 3 unit of attribute, B-mind has 30 units of attribute. In your case the burn rate is 1g/min. So burning A-mind gives you x*1 unit of attribute per minute (x is determined by the allomantic power of a compounder and is constant), while burning B-mind gives you x*10 units of attribute. So you get different amounts of investiture per minute with differently filled metalminds, as the burn rate is the same by your explanation. Which is why I believe burn rate changes depending on the amount of attributes in metalminds. B-mind does more work, as physical work is W=deltaE. B-mind provides more energy per second, so it does more work, so by the WoB it should burn faster.

Why would Mistborn be unable to burn aluminum? I don't agree with it. Type of investiture used in a fabrial plays a role in it. Which would prevent them from using powers: It's aluminum Allomancy, that stops all powers from being used or having an effect on you. If there is an area affected by aluminum allomancy it would prevent all powers from being used, including summoning a Shardblade. What does a hemalurgic aluminum spike does - removes all powers. But he can power it for longer... Most likely both: Aluminum allomancy is not a suppression fabrial. They can't push through aluminum. Yes it would, I'm not disputing it. Healing of it would stop. Yup Yes, unless plate is cracked or has broken segments. Nothing. But it creates obstacles on a battlefield, which Radiant has to avoid. Mistborn too (unless there is a way to target only specific types of investiture which is likely, but we don't have that now - maybe era 4). It does a lot, another WoB: So why was the Tower fabrial so easily reversed? All Raboniel infused it with Voidlight. Even if, Dor powered Mistborn would be able to make it powerful enough so Radiant would not be able to overcome it. If he is, he can't use powers, so no. He's throwing them. Primar cubes work on him as well unfortunately. My brain is already melting