Extesian

I know you qualified it as being very unlikely J I just wanted to note that, in my mind, it’s more than very unlikely, simply because of that line in AU. I agree it’s challenging with CR there all messed up, but Hoid can do it, so I reckon a well-prepared Elantrian probably can. It’s still hard to imagine, but still more likely than a pre-splintering IRE I think. But no criticism of raising the option, we know little enough that we should consider every possibility. And yeah the point about Alonoe was not one I’d seen before, and I like it. I don’t have any useful speculation to add, but I do like it.

Nice summary there @The One Who Connects. I do disagree on one thing (though not a hard disagree), the age of the Ire. In AU, Khriss refers to the splintering of Devo and Domi as being in the times of human pre-history, so I don’t think I can accept the pre-splintering idea. I’m not necessarily even sure that the IRE were formed before the Reod. Elantris is already set a long time before most of the other books so I could see the IRE being ‘old’ at the time of SH, and it would fit it with their Shaod-like status. But then I also have the theory I posted Here. If that’s right, then the IRE could be from any time since Elantris was built (though not before, unless they returned to Sel meanwhile). That theory said that Elantris is a huge artificial boost to natural AonDor-user powers and that once Elantris was built, any initiated AonDor-user coming within the operating vicinity of Elantris would start to change, but that when Elantris is non-functioning, that change would be aborted halfway through, trapping them in Shaod state. One possibility of this is that someone who is already a full Elantrian, and leaves Sel, could revert to Shaod state. That last bit is the most speculative though. So yeah it's up in the air, but my bet on the IRE is that they're from post-Elantris but pre-Reod, or are simply Elantrians that left post-Reod but pre-Elantris restoration.

Yeah there are certainly tricks. I think that's the only reason I find WoBs any better than others, search tricks. If it's a noun you search singular and plural. A verb, search with -s, -ed and -ing. And then yeah search within the results page because that is much note flexible. It definitely works you just have to know how to search. I'll be happy with the Archive because it won't just be people knowing those tricks that can find things easily.

Yeah man that's why I certainly can't guarantee it's exhaustive. I literally just searched for 'eyes' not even eye. I still think that will cover most of them, unless Brandon talks about a 'blue stare' or something. But its fair warning. Btw how much does theoryland search suck. Kindle searching is at least more versatile in that you can actually search for part of a word. Braize me Ashyn I'm looking forward to WoB archive.

Oh that helps! He's been cagey about the Oathstone being magical (unless I've missed a WoB) and I really thought it was. It fitted with bonds so well. But finally getting an answer is awesome nice work!

Nutella is the liquid manifestation of the Shard that invested in Earth. Nutella is your best friend, but the kind of friend your Dad forbids you from hanging out with. Nutella slays Princesses and beds demons. Nutella is the sleeper pick for next POTUS. Nutella is precious to me. And I won't hear a word against It.

Congratulations @Herowannabe!! I know what I'd be like if my cat went missing, so I'm delighted for you

I'm not sure if this has been raised as this thread is crazy long already but Same with a larkin presumably, as they operate inn the same way. A Shardbearer needs to access investiture to summon the blade, and anything that stops that should stop the summoning. Edit - to head off the inevitable complaints, that WoB is from @Rasarr, is meant to say chromium, not aluminum, and is a cracker.

Thanks @Calderis, good idea. Yeah things firm up a bit with the Sydney WoB So would your argument be that soulcasting without the right gem is always possible but the right gem makes it easier? Or that it was once possible but the system has changed to match the essences and since that change you must have the right gem? I could believe either.

That would be a nice way around it actually, I hadn't thought of it, but

Ha, thanks Calderis. Yeah we complement each other pretty well on this site, I think we have similar ways of thinking, pretty similar levels of Cosmere knowledge and work well off each other. I know I’ve had a few theories that were incomplete until you corrected me, and vice versa. We upvote each other so much I’ve occasionally wondered if @Chaos will think we’re the same person, with two accounts, just upvoting each other, and he’ll bring out the Banhammer. It’s a pleasure continuing to do business with youJ (We're totes separate people Chaos. I promise :D ) Oh and @The One Who Connects, I missed your post but all good points. I would think lightness, rather than color, could be what's passed on like its allomancy, not a particular metal, that's passed on in Scadrial. But the colors are matching up reasonably well for family groups, even if it's not certain and you can't maybe trace yet whether is mother, father or both. I'm also surprised we don't have Renarin's color. But i could have missed it with my 'eyes' search.

As I said on the other thread, I strongly believe the gem is only needed to form the bond in the first place, and the bond is what enables dismissing/summoning irrespective of whether there is still a functioning gemstone. I put the passage above, but for clarity, it is because of these lines Credit goes to Rushu, who asked why a Shardblade can be summoned and dismissed even if its gemstone has gone dun It seems the gemstone’s purpose is only used in initially bonding the Blade—something that the Radiants didn’t need to do That makes sense to me realmatically, that the bond is what matters and the gemstone is only needed to establish the bond. it also makes sense from the point of view of the WoB about Brandon initially having the gemstone being broken to sever the bond, but changed it to the bearer needing to give up the bond consciously. If that change has been made, it follows that you can no longer break the bond simply by breaking the gem. And if that is the case, the gem must be used only to establish the bond, not to maintain it. I hope that logical flow follows, but I personally feel it's pretty likely. Of course we don't know that Navani is right, but it feels right. And @Calderis, I've spent a long time trying, and failing, to come up with a unifying theory of color and gems for Roshar. Why does soulcasting need a specific gem type? Why do eye colors change? All of these questions. It's why I put together that eye color list. I think it's something around that composition (combination of colour, chemical structure and physical structure) is what's needed to create fabrial-style bonds, and it's part of what makes the third magic system different. I'm rambling. But yes, I agree that I don't know why i'ts needed, but it somehow makes instinctive sense to me that it's needed.

Here's the passage from WoR underlined where relevant

So assuming Navani is right, you cannot bond a dead Shardblade without a gem. But my impression is that once it is bonded, the gem doesn't matter. It can be dun and the bond stays intact. Broken? I'd say yes. Or bearers wouldn't need to relinquish the bond you could just smash the stone, with the WoB above indicates is no longer the case. I'm assuming that realmatically the gem is the medium by which the bearer initially bonds the spren, that's all. I've underlined the relevant text from WoR. As for eye lightening, yeah I'd expect so. Using a Shardblade without bonding it shouldn't really do much, you're not really using kinetic investiture. Whereas we see Moash, for example, having his eyes change when he bonds it. I think the act of bonding a Shardblade (ie bonding the not - alive - not - dead Schroedinger's spren creates a spiritual connection with it and that even though you can't surgebind your spiritweb is now invested with that flavor of investiture. That's what your eyes show

Ahh now Kaladin's eyes weren't amber, my language was clumsy. When he wa accidentally healing himself after being strung up, with spheres, his eyes leaked amber stormlight. The same way the Radiants in the vision, when using a regrowth fabrial, had amber light emerging. It's a regrowth surge thing, not his eye color changing. Sorry about the wording. And Calderis I agree that the Heralds shouldn't necessarily have the surge eye colours without their blades. It's just her eye color is so distinct and magic sounding, very pale violet, almost white. I don't think it's suspicious, just... interesting

As a lover of redheads that would be nice Interestingly the Mistress has pale violet eyes and Shalash is the Lightweaver patron. And @Calderis i entirely agree. It has to be genetic/ hereditary to an extent coz that's why lighteyes exist, and I agree its based on bonding with a dead Shardblade (presumably where the bond was intact at the point of, ahem, conceiving). But yeah I compild the list hoping for something wrong, but the sample size is small and there are few unexplainables. Shalash having violet eyes is now bothering me. I guess without the Honorblades the Heralds' eyes may revert.

MAGNETS

So I started doing this list to confirm eye color matches shardblade-type, and a few other things. But now that we have that WoB I feel like I’ll let this list languish. So I’m posting it for anyone who wants to look for trends and such. Note that I can’t guarantee this is comprehensive, but I basically searched for the word ‘eyes’ in both Stormlight books and checked every one for mention of colors. Some is a bit shorthand, and I didn’t bother to reference the lines or page numbers. But they are in order so it gives a bit of an idea. The main thing for me to note is that we don’t have Sadeas’ eye color, either before or after his acquisition, we have what seems to me to be Elhokar having blue eyes at one point (we know yellow was an error, but blue??), we don’t have Amaram’s since his acquisition. But anyway, hope this is marginally useful to people. “Each of theTen Essences had an analogous part of the human body - blood for liquid, hair for wood, and so forth. The eyes were associated with crystal and glass. The window into a person’s mind and spirit.” Kaladin – dark brown Shallan - light blue Jasnah – pale violet Taravangian – pale grey Kabsal – blue Teft – brown Szeth – “The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from Dark Green to pale-almost glowing-sapphire, a unique effect of this particular weapon” Dalinar – blue Elhokar – light yellow, but error Wit –blue Chasmfiend – green Adolin – blue Vamah – light grey Laral – bright pale green Teshav – violet Elhokar1/4 through WoK – blue Radiant in Taffa vision – light tan (amber stormlight leaks from the plate, also used topaz/heliodor fabrial for healing) Male radiant companion – very pale blue eyes, plate leaks blue stormlight, male windrunner/skybreaker Teleb, dalinar’s guard – light green Moash half way through WoK – dark green Roshone light green Kaladin self healing after storm - amber light Hashal pale blue Amaram light tan Dunny violet The mistress very bright violet Recreance radiant (also tanavasts avatar) palest blue Navani violet Wit with flute pale blue Taln dark brown Gavilar, pale green Moash – first brown, Khal, yellow Siah aimain, deep blue Larkin – solid silver Zahel, brown Jakamav – pale green (no blade, just plate) Shallan – light blue (1/3 through WoR) Szeth – eyes darkened from sapphire blue when his blade was dismissed Taln – dark Soulcasters – like their property Shallan – light blue later in WoR (after blade use) Redin – bustard of shallan’s highprince – one brown, one intense blue Mraize – violet Wit in carriage – blue Elhokar – pale green halfway through WoR Moash – light tan after bonding Kaladin after third oath – extremely pale blue

Thanks Darkness. That's the more logical option and I expect it's the case. It just occurred to me it could be a nice way to foreshadow and distract from a true magical component, that of Seeing a person's soul by touching them. But most likely it's future sight rather than spiritual sight. I'm still going to try to pay attention to who Renarin touches and when, just in case

Thanks @Erai Sedai. @maxal, @agent 34, I definitely agree the personalities are part of 'dangerous ' I did mention a couple of those aspects. But I hadn't thought of it being just that, I was including surgebinding. You may well be right in which case that order definitely wouldn't surprise me

Yeah makes sense. I think either way Returned are different. A normal CS has their soul infused with investiture as a natural consequence to holding and using investiture. A Returned however is an artificial process, Endowment chooses to give it to someone and they accept. So the question is whether when that happens, Endowment separately infuses the soul with investiture AND gives a Divine Breath to staple it to the body, or whether the Divine Breath is the only gift and it performs both those functions. If so, giving it up would be giving up the soul. Another difference could be that this is investiture of Endowment, even if Returned are exactly the same as other Cognitive Shadows, they simply have the ability to give up their soul to restore another soul. That's not a classification problem, just a result of the Shard's intent.

@Calderis that does make sense to me now. We seldom disagree which is why I laid out the basics even though I know you know them and sorry about the TLR thing, i meant to distinguish this way. At the time that TLR died, his soul, like everyone's, was intact and has some time in the CR before getting pulled to the Beyond. I completely agree the could have stayed longer or indefinitely because he was already so invested he could remain as a Cognitive Shadow. My argument was that, with a Returned, they had no 'natural' soul, that the Divine Breath doesn't anchor their natural soul, it comprises it. And that when they expend the Divine Breath, that is expending the investiture that their soul was made up of. However I realized this WoB makes that probably wrong. So yeah if the Divine Breath is only being used to staple the Cognitive Shadow to the body, and the CS is made up of different investiture, it's much more likely that giving up the Divine Breath simply severs the connection to the body and the CS still exists on the Cognitive Realm. The reason I'm not convinced of that is because a CS in an end - positive system exists because they used or held so much investiture during their life. A Returned however did not necessarily use or hold much during their lives, they were usually just normal people. So for them to have enough investiture as a Returned to become a CS, I feel that must be from the Divine Breath. And by giving that up they rip away the investiture that is the building blocks of their soul. Does that make sense?

But...TLR wasn't a Cognitive Shadow. He was a Sliver. A Cognitive Shadow is someone who has died and had their soul replaced with investiture. A Sliver is someone who never died, still has their soul, but it's been augmented by massive amounts of investiture held then released. TLR didn't move straight on because his original soul was still there, and bolstered. I'm arguing a Returned is different because it's not their original soul augmented with investiture, their 'soul' is that investiture. That may be wrong of course but TLR isn't comparable to a Returned.

Yeah i essentially think this. A Cognitive Shadow have their souls basically overwritten with investiture, analogous to petrified wood. I think the act of 'giving up ' a divine breath is using that investiture to heal in one big packet. As the soul only existed in the form of that investiture, there's no soul left afterwards. When normal people give up their Breath they're just losing an addition to their soul in the Physical Realm. But a Returned is their Divine Breath, their formerly living soul was just copied by pure investiture, a Splinter. That's my take anyway.

Good summary. Is this the WoB you're thinking of?