robardin

So maybe the Umpteenth Heightening grants instant spectroscopic analysis of material composition!

Heh I guess if Adolin is assumed to become some kind of Edgedancer via a revived Mayalaran, Regrowth gets doubled up with Renarin But that makes 7 surges then, since Renarin does not, in fact, share Lightweaving with Shallan, he has the foretelling sight from Glys being touched by Sja-anat

An outside-the-box meaning of Kaladin and Shallan getting together. Like, in Book 8 or 9, when the Cosmere works are crossing up, someone hemalurgically staples her, Kaladin, Adolin, and Renarin into a Kholinoss with 4 sprens, 8 surges, and superhuman strength. "I am Radiant."

Shallan, Wayne, and Hoid are the punsters we've seen

Nice find! But that WoB dates to Jan. 22, 2008. The "Kelsier short story that talks about him discovering the Eleventh Metal" eventually appeared in the Mistborn Adventure Game, which was released in December, 2011, and is also in Arcanum Unbounded: https://brandonsanderson.com/mistborn-the-eleventh-metal/ OK, that is just the first passage that you can read at his website. But in re-reading the full short story in AU, there isn't any scene with TLR designating Mare for the Pits versus the Inquisitors wanting her for spike fodder. In doing an e-book search, the words/substrings "Inquisitor" or "Lord Ruler" don't occur at all in The Eleventh Metal, other than as an expletive, only in Mistborn: Secret History, the latter of which of course takes place after Kelsier's mortal demise. So this WoB is still the best we have to go on. The points already made are all still valid, though: not all Mistings caught by the Inquisition were needed for spike fodder, and in any case, a spike for A-tin would probably be minimally useful for an Inquisitor who wasn't originally endowed with the power (Tineye or Mistborn) while having a cost to mental stability. And apparently, the Inquisitors still had a use in mind for Mare, which TLR didn't feel like obliging.

I've always wondered what would happen if the Compounder did NOT store the excess attribute into a metalmind, perhaps because there was no more metal at hand to use as a metalmind. What would it mean for Miles to have "too much" health, if he didn't store "overflow" into goldminds? Would the Investiture somehow radiate out like an aura and its utility be lost? I mean, it couldn't actually do damage to him... It's health. And if it did do damage him, it would immediately get healed, and then stop doing damage when he no longer needed healing. (So maybe "damaging yourself due to excess health" is a problem that kind of solves itself.) I think there's a WoB that at its upper limits, a Brute tapping a pewtermind could get so large/bulky that they were effectively immobilized, and thence imagined a humorous >Era 2 party trick where you gave a Pewterarm a vial with ground unkeyed pewterminds in it, resulting in a surprise phyiscal ballooning, a real life version of something out of a Tom and Jerry cartoon when they literally physically pump themselves up.

Yet it cannot be a journey if it doesn't have a beginning.

In MB: Secret History, Ati/Ruin mentions planning to start his post-Scadrial Ruination with the Ire: I thought he might have implied he had plans beyond that as well in comments he made in SH, but I'll have to dig deeper.

We don't even know what being the Desginated Champion entails. Odium implied it would have to do with leading in warfare, as he wanted to name Dalinar as someone who "dominated a battlefield the way the sun dominates the sky", but now that Dalinar has respectfully declined the office, maybe he'll go with choosing someone who would win in a contest of another sort. Like using Taravangian on one of his smartest days to play Dalinar at blindfolded chess.

Hmm. Would getting drained of the "spark of life" that is the final amount of innate Investiture for a living person be the same thing as getting cut by Nightblood's blade? I always pictured it more like what happened to Lightsong after giving his Divine Breath to Susebron. The "partial spark-of-life draining" we see when people get close to that absolute limit - Lolan, the guy who started drawing Nightblood in the Court of Gods, and later Szeth and Lift - ends up draining colors from the person's hand, with streaks of colorlessness reaching up towards the person's head (hello, "Crazyface" Szeth). I think if Nightblood hadn't been interrupted, the "colorless streaks" would end up over the entire body, resulting in a body drained of color - and of life - but not physically poofed (and perhaps not "severed" on the Spiritual level, either?).

Really?? Wow. All the times I've re-read MB: Era 1 and I never registered that! ...Probably because on most, if not all, re-reads, I skip the initial parts about setting up a new constitutional government, with provisions and clauses for zzzzz But then how come the Era 2 people don't realize hey, TLR's armbands were melted down, broken up, and sold or burned up, so what's with this legend about them granting all the Metalborn powers? I guess that tidbit wasn't carried over into the Words of Founding, eh? (Or else I'm not the only one skimming past that part :))

I initially thought the OP might have been asking what happened to the original idea of what the Bands were - the arm bracers of the Lord Ruler that Vin did a mist-fuelled Steelpush on, out through the window of Rashek's throne room in Kredik Shaw onto the streets of Luthadel (or into a rampart, back alley, or courtyard of Kredik Shaw). If nothing else, it was a humongous piece of atium crammed full of Feruchemical youth. Even if it couldn't be "unkeyed" after the fact, it'd still be allomantically useable...

Like Zoidberg from Futurama?

I understand the "time x attribute" aspect, but I think you're hitting on where the "added" investiture is coming from: that a living person is, in fact, a constant draw of some kind of "Investiture", simply by the fact of being alive, even if they're not using any kind of magic. Your analogy of "daily wages" would be a good one: filling a metalmind for a period of time is like saving $10 a day for a week, then when you stop saving money/filling the metalmind, you keep your full wages in hand going forward/your "normal life investiture" goes back to normal. And what that "normal level" is, is predicated on something spiritual (as indicated by how Cosmere healing typically operates).

I suspect this is so fundamental that it's come up before, but I didn't see any explanation of this in the Coppermind entry, so I'll pose it here. Feruchemy is one of the three Metallic Arts on Scadrial, which clearly has links to Allomancy in that it uses the same metals as Allomancy does, but as attribute storage instead of "burning" them to tap into a flavor of the power of Preservation. So it would seem that an admixture of Preservation and Ruin is at work in powering it (not some other Shard), and supposedly, to equal measure. In a recent thread, it seemed established (including cited WoBs) that there is no Snapping involved for the ability (though at what age, or how, a Feruchemist comes into knowledge of their ability is unknown, nor if pre-Catacendre Feruchemists experienced it differently than Era 2+ Ferrings do), and what was news to me, that it was originally a "gift" to the Terris people (from who?): In that thread, it was mentioned once again that where Allomancy is "end-positive", with power being gained from Preservation, and Hemalurgy is "end-negative", in that power is lost while transfering Investiture from one person to another, Feruchemy is "end-neural" and thus doesn't need something external to power it (the metalminds are "batteries" for the Feruchemist's native attributes). But that's not really true, right? Feruchemy can be ultimately seen to be "end-positive with a time delay" because the person "bounces back" to normal when they stop filling a metalmind. For example, when Sazed or Wax fills an ironmind with weight, they become lighter. But when they stop filling the ironmind, their weight immediately goes back to normal. And then he's immediately able to tap the ironmind to be at greater than normal weight. But if Feruchemy were end-neutral, shouldn't they only get their normal weight back by tapping the ironmind? Even without the "multiplier" aspect, where you can be twice as heavy for slightly less than half as long (and doesn't that imply some "systemic loss" as well for the multiplier gain)? By way of analogy, if I have $100 in my pocket, and I put $10 in a sock and walk away, I have $90 on me, my money won't bounce back to $100. If I want $100 in my pocket again, I'd have to take all $10 back out of the sock. Same thing with speed, metal ability, etc. - if you "bounce back to normal" while leaving behind attributes in a metalmind without having to empty the metalmind to get back to normal, isn't that mechanism fundamentally end positive?

So if lerasium is expanding the little bit of "Allomantic potential in everbody" - i.e., Essence of Preservation - to make a non-Allomancer like Elend into a Mistborn, would it work as well for a non-Scadrian? It's the natives of Scadrial who were literally created by the combined powers of Preservation + Ruin, after all. I guess all other humans in the Cosmere are descended from pre-Shattering bloodlines and so are sparked to life by Essence of Adonalsium, which is a superset of Preservation?

Wait, is the Navani-as-Bondsmith theory having her bond the Sibling, or the Nightwatcher? I guess it does make sense that it'd be the sleeping Silbing, being as Navani is a fabrialist (fabriatrician? Fabriafabricant?) currently living in Urithiru. But then, who's going to bond the Nightwatcher? For is it not written, Three shall be the number of Bondsmiths; and the number of Bondsmiths shall be three: four shall there not be, nor either two, unless we then proceed directly to three?

Oh no, it's not the Parshendi that Gavilar was keen on hiding that black sphere from. When he said "they must not get it" while handing over the black sphere to his own assassin who just said he was hired by the Parshendi, how could he be referring to those selfsame Parshendi? I think he's referring to the Ghostbloods, as the first thing he says to Szeth after his death blow was "I... expected you... to come... You can tell.. Thaidakar... That he's too late...", and then is confused when Szeth replies, "I don't know who that is."

I wouldn't say he's "bad" for admitting he has ultimate goals that allow for things like the destruction of Roshar, when he says to Dalinar: So we can infer a few interesting things: He's willing to "watch this world crumble and burn" (presumably, the victory of Odium - in the scenario he's imagining, he's a passive bystander) in order to "get what I need", yet he's in mortal danger from Odium. So what is it that he "needs" from Roshar that would still be possible, if not actually facilitated, by Odium's getting free from the Rosharan system, even if Odium would move to destroy him on sight? He's not on Roshar to prevent Odium from getting free? Or... Is that actually what's at stake for Odium? We actually don't know, do we? Dalinar says that Odium would still be trapped and "unable to leave" even if he destroyed humanity with this Desolation as incentive for Odium to accept the contest of champions, but Odium accepts that offer without admitting or denying that that statement was true. It seems like logically that can't be true... If winning a Contest of Champions was the only way Odium could break free of the Oathpact, wouldn't he be the one pursuing the option the hardest? Hoid's goals/motives: - Are opposed by Frost and the 17th Shard, who believe in non-intervention, where Hoid's pursuit involves a lot world-hopping and cameo-style meddling in world events - Are rejected or dismissed by all the Shards who we've seen respond to him with a Letter, except for Harmony, who is intrigued by what Hoid's unknown missive suggested and Wants To Know More Before Making A Decision - Are irrelevant when it comes to Odium, who just wants to destroy him - His goal is something Odium doesn't want to happen, and Frost mentions it as appearing to be an extension of a pre-existing grudge against Rayse (Odium) and Bavadin (Autonomy) - That letter to Frost and the other Shards appears to be specifically an appeal for help in dealing with Odium And yet, Hoid is willing to watch Roshar crumble to "get what he wants". So... Is (one of the ways) for Odium to be defeated still going to result in Roshar's destruction? Is THAT the secret that caused the Recreance? Or is Hoid speaking of a pan-Cosmere goal that goes beyond defeating Odium and/or Autonomy as a Stage Two?

Here's how I think of it: A spren is a concept made concrete; the "higher" ones that attain self-consciousness are embodiments of abstract ideals created from the thoughts of living, thinking beings, human and listener and so on. Their "lifestuff" is of the Cognitive Realm. But such a spren that then bonds to a living human who's increasingly committed to embodying that ideal in their own life gets tied to the Physical Realm. The human gains Surgebinding, and the spren gains expansion, the ability to explore and to grow in the context of physical experience. The link happens at a cognitive level: that's why we see different flavors expressed of the Second and Third Windrunner Ideals in Teft and Lopen than we saw from Kaladin. It's what the person thinks they personally need to do or to become to level up in their own minds to become more "honorable" or "honorworthy" that deepens the tie to their honorspren. Which for the spren, must mean their "lifestuff" is now more deeply entwined with that person's concept of the ideal as well. The death of a bonded human severs that tie to the spren, which is a traumatic loss, but the ideals remain the same - the link is broken and that is a shock, but the "self" of the idea is whole. If anything, Syl probably retains some imprint of her previous Radiant's conceptualization of "honor", which affected her choice of Kaladin. But the breaking of the oath from the human side is more than just a severing of the link: it damages, no it full on rejects, the ideal that had been embraced and entwined with the person's cognitive self. The analogy to a cybernetic implant and its abrupt removal is pretty good. You know what this reminds me of? My wife once told me that she kept playing with her dolls deep into her teenage years, because early on she developed the idea that her toys were only really alive while she played with them, and she could just about feel them yearning to live. Now imagine if a "toyspren" bonded in such a way that they gained independent life and motion, so long as you believed in it, what would it feel like if you just... Stopped... Believing in it being alive? Oh no, isn't that what Puff the Magic Dragon is about? Puff is a toyspren with a broken Oath!

So next question: what Shard is powering the transformation? If hemalurgy is Ruining things with a net negative outcome of power, is what the listeners do something originally of Cultivation? Did they have spren-bonding before she and Honor and then Odium arrived?

What?! When?!! How??!!? (I mentioned him in the context of how prominent a full Shardbearer would be among the Alethi, as an example of how highly placed the Diagram had their people)

Yeah, but in neither the Letter nor "The Traveler" is he ever named as "Frost", called a "dragon", or described in a conventionally draconian way, except for Hoid calling him "you old reptile" or "you sly old lizard", which we only know to link to the reply letter and figure that Hoid speaks with in "The Traveler" because of WoBs. Frankly I'm not sure where the name "Frost" is known to fans here - I'm guessing unpublished works? (I try to avoid those, as I'm quite sure that something like reading Way of Kings Prime before the actual canonical Way of Kings would have affected my enjoyment of The Real Thing, and in retrospect, I even regret having read the early released chapters from Oathbringer as they came out three or four a week as breaking the proper pacing, and won't do it for future books)

There are four groups with ulterior motives we've seen doing stuff in Stormlight Archive 1-3: the Sons of Honor, the Skybreakers, the Diagram, and the Ghostbloods. (Not counting whatever the Heralds-in-hiding may have been up to in concert, possibly orchestrated by Ishar.) Some of them know about some or all of the others. But which ones are left, what have they done, and what are/were they after? Help me flesh out this "Who's Who" summary! The Sons of Honor: Wanted to flush out the Heralds and restart the Knights Radiant by triggering another Desolation, in order to regain a true and direct connection to Honor ("restoring true Vorinism"). They obviously didn't know about the Skybreakers, an extant order of Knights Radiant headed by a Herald, then. They also didn't know or don't believe that Honor Is Dead (even though Gavilar had started getting those visions where Honor said, "Odium has killed me"?) They are or were directed by, or have a high ranking figure in, a "Restares" who we have yet to see, but who Gavilar mentions, and Amaram has consulted with and sends information to. They do know about the Ghostbloods, as Gavilar says to Szeth to "tell Thaidakar that he's too late", which also implies they know/think the Ghostbloods would NOT have wanted Gavilar to do whatever it is he's done, which appears to be to release an Unmade; or probably just that they'd tried to get to the Unmade before Gavilar did. Also, Amaram thinks the Shardbearer who tried to kill him (Helaran) was an example of how "the Ghostbloods grow more bold", and wonders "why Thaidakar would risk this". But they don't appear to know about the Diagram - its organization or its predictions. Or want to kill Jasnah (Gavilar's daughter!). The Skybreakers: Largely under the direction of Nalan, as suggested by Ishar, have been eliminating Surgebinders and proto-Radiants of all other Orders, to prevent the True Desolation. It's not clear that any Skybreaker other than Nalan knew that was the ulterior motive; their oaths and Ideals are to follow the law and to administer justice. They know about the Sons of Honor, as they armed and sent Helaran to kill him, with a full set of deadspren Shards. They have never mentioned or gone after the Diagram or the Ghostbloods. Or Jasnah. Have they? (Of course, now that they've mostly sworn for Team Odium, that's moot.) The Diagram: Largely under the direction of Taravangian, the creator of the Diagram based on his off-the-charts "day of maximum capacity" granted by the Nightwatcher. Their goal is to preserve as much of mankind as possible through the likely victory of Odium in the True Desolation, by swearing to serve him in exchange. (Taravangian hoped "for my people", i.e., under his dominion, but bargained down to just Kharbaranth and its people.) They know something about the Sons of Honor, as Taravangian indicates that he knew what Gavilar was up to, and Graves mentioned that the Diagram only knew the term "Everstorm" "because of old Gavilar's visions", that Taravangian recalled as "confided in him the night of the Alethi king's death". The Diagram does not speak of the Skybreakers per se that we've seen, but it comes to the same conclusion as they did (or their mandate from Ishar via Nalan), in a numerical cipher: "Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return." It also mentions the Honorblades, and they're not surprised that Battah would be in the Palanaeum. They know something of the Ghostbloods, as Adrotagia wonders if the reference to "the wanderer, the wild piece" is to "Mraize", and a WoB explicitly states, "The Ghostbloods are in the Diagram." Graves curses that "that woman, Jasnah Kholin, was right" about the parshmen being transformed into Voidbringers, which the Diagram wasn't explicit about. Probably based on Danlan's reports on what Jasnah had told Dalinar and Navani (it wasn't a widely disseminated opinion). But they had no interest in killing or recruiting her, and Jasnah has never mentioned them. The Ghostbloods: They have an unknown goal, but they do have something they're "trying to accomplish". They know about the Sons of Honor, claiming Amaram as "prey" while spying on him (with Iyatil eventually going to blowdart him). They know a lot about the Skybreakers, since they seem to know a great deal about how they viewed and used Helaran following their interest in a nascent Surgebinder in the Davar household (seems like an inside agent...) They know about the Diagram, seemingly dismissing Taravangian as the one who "hides in his insignificant city, listening to its songs, thinking he plays in world events". They have tried to kill Jasnah, after she had killed a number of their members, which implies she targeted them, and oh, I guess they're going to keep on seeking revenge, won't they? AND, WHO'S FAMOUS? The Sons of Honor counted the King of Alethkar and Highmarshal Amaram among their number, though both are now dead and their purpose seemingly debunked (which fact drove Amaram to Odium). We don't know who Restares was or is. The Skybreakers have actively concealed their existence since the Recreance, despite an obscure note in the in-world Words of Radiance about how one of the ten orders "would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine". Yet Helaran knew enough to "seek them out" (per Mraize), though later he describes it more that Nalan was "impressed" with him, so maybe it was the other way around after all. The Diagram recruits across national boundaries, and have a full Shardbearer in Graves, plus Danlan who works as a scribe for Dalinar, among their number. And of course, Taravangian is now king of both Kharbranth and Jah Keved. The Ghostbloods have a symbol that is recognized by the underclass in the Alethi warcamps, and widespread and annoying enough that Jasnah had seen fit to off a number of them on her own. They were also an organization that Tyn knew enough about that she wanted to impress them and be admitted to their number, which she had not yet done. So in a way, the GBs are the least secret of the four, in terms of their operations... Yet the most secret in terms of what they're after. And they don't have any obviously highly placed members in terms of explicit political power on Roshar. (That we know about.) Whatever they're after, it's not direct rule, nor something that being able to directly rule in any way facilitates (or they'd pursue it). And we don't know who Thaidakar is, though it seems Gavilar and Amaram do. Presumably not an Alethi highprice or something.

Colors, how many Breaths would it take to make a Lifeless Dragon like in Game of Thrones? Or never mind stealing something out of them or making one into an Inqjuisitor - could you staple four dragons together to make a drakoloss? Of course, all this talk about Cosmere dragons is kind of deep in RAFO territory, as we have no canonical on-screen time of one yet, right?