robardin

That's another good point. So we have two questions about how that played out: - How was Taravangian able to draw Nightblood from within a "CR bubble" (Odiumvision) when it was still physically carried (maybe drawn) by Szeth in his prison cell in the Physical Realm [answer may have to do with Nightblood being Special in All Three Realms, or simply a version of the Manifest-the-physical-object-from-bead trick that Brandon took special pain to illustrate earlier as not resulting in the original physical object disappearing from the Physical Realm...] - How was Taravangian able to draw Nightblood... at all, when he repeatedly described himself as bloodstained and taking on the responsibility for evils/sins committed for the greater good? [answer may have to do with drawing a "cognitive" version versus the Real Deal? But it sure had a Real Effect on Rayse! Or just that a self-identification of "doing necessary evil for the greater good" passes the NB test?]

She ("Testament") may have been trying to do that, but was prevented. The "island far to the East" may be... Wherever in the middle of the Shattered Plains that Shallan summoned her as a Blade to kill Tyn with? And if it was a year or longer ago, that would be or could be before their accidental trip into Shadesmar via Corrupted Oathgate, right? And this inkspren "set up shop" around her, keeping her in place? I dunno.

Yeah, I theorized this at some point - not sure if it is in any way supported or contradicted by any WoB, though - that what we saw in Dalinar's vision at Feverstone Keep was an intentional act to leave Shards (both Blades and Plate) in the hands of human soldiers, even though they immediately started killing each other over them. Exactly why, we just don't know yet. (The fact that we now know for sure that the Recreance was something done in agreement with their spren may be a clue.)

Yep. The egotistical Rayse, who went around with a scepter all the time, would never have pretended to be someone else. The fact that Taravangian is doing so, from the very outset, in order to "give people what they expect" so he can draw out more information, is very much an example of how a Vessel matters in directing a Shard. Yes, if Odium truly is "the most dangerous of the sixteen" in nature and not because of who the Vessel was, oh dear. For one, I doubt Taravangian will be like Rayse and feel that the Shard "suits him perfectly" and that he wouldn't want to be influenced by another Shard. I kind of think Taravangian would indeed seek to absorb rather than to splinter other Shards. I wonder how Rayse had planned to do that while still bound to Roshar, which he'd agreed to be even if his champion won, acting solely through proxy with Dalinar as his leader "to send to the stars". But whatever devious plan he had for achieving Shard-splintering results by agent proxy while personally bound to the Rosharan system, is only going to get a whole lot more devious and cunning with Taravangian piloting the ship.

Had another thought/question: how is it that Taravangian was able to draw Nightblood? Odium had pulled him into a "vision" to talk to him... Which apparently is like a bubble in the Cognitive Realm, so he wasn't all smashed up by Szeth. He also saw Nightblood "manifest on this side" and drew it to stab Rayse/Odium with. We'd never seen Nightblood in the CR, interesting that NB is somehow physically present in the CR even when actually carried in the Physical Realm? Szeth killed Old Man Taravangian with an ordinary knife, right? Or did Szeth draw Nightblood in the PR which made it possible for CR Taravangian to use it? And why were there physical remains? I mean, I know the "real" reason is that that's the ejecta of Rayse's Vessel in the PR, but if Szeth had indeed killed Taravangian with Nightblood he should have been surprised by bits of charred bones or whatever being left, since normally whatever gets Nightblooded puffs away to smoke.

No, it's the Blade she knows she can summon in "ten heartbeats" if she has to even before she's sworn the Third Ideal to Pattern (II). Like, she thinks about summoning it to fight off the "mysterious symbol-headed creatures" she starts to see in Kharbranth after becoming Jasnah's ward. With the Nahel bond broken/rejected she can't use Stormlight or Surgebind, but having reached (at least) the Third Ideal apparently she was left bonded to it as much as being bonded with a deadeye Blade would be via gemstone? The only other "living Knight with a dead spren" example we have was when Kaladin "killed" Syl, but she hadn't yet been a Blade as he was only of the Second Ideal.

And what is time, to a god? Nothing. Be it ten thousand years, or ten days. And the idea that a Shard could rummage through Hoid's memories and twiddle them a bit really makes me wonder how Hoid could ever, ever have been so rash as to arrange to meet face to face with Rayse-Odium. I think this speaks to what he knew of Rayse as a Vessel (what Rayse wouldn't think of doing), and did not expect from a very different Taravangian Vessel of Odium. I also think it's worth applauding how that Epilogue was written, in terms of modifying Hoid's memories. It just... Replayed, almost but not quite verbatim, with Hoid feeling "a little off" but not sure why (the fact that his perfect pitch was not all there should be a clue he may eventually work out). But of course, it's hard to know what you don't know, right? If you can't trust your own memories, what are you left with?

That was a nice fakeout, to make us think (that we were supposed to think) that Rayse-Odium was the Big Baddie of the Cosmere Storyline. I personally thought we'd find that was only for the "front five" of SA, and that Rayse might be made to drop Odium in SA5. Never expected it to be SA4, nor for it to happen the way that it did (never thought it through as to who would pick it up, either). Having it happen so relatively quickly and casually was very cool. I mean from a Cosmere mechanics perspective, it's just something that naturally happens, yeah? Vessel contains Shard; Vessel is destroyed, Shard is released; Shard seeks a new Vessel with Connection to it nearby; Shard finds it, boom, done. I'm sure from a first person perspective, like we saw when a certain other POV character Ascended in another storyline (no spoilers...), it felt like "an infinity of time passed in a frozen microsecond". What I found very odd is that Rayse-Odium was perfectly willing to stay bound on Roshar in both "championship fight" outcomes. All along I'd assumed he wanted to be freed to go Shard-Hunting again. ... Or did he? I am not entirely sure. What is telling is that Rayse-Odium said more than once, "if you have an agreement with me, I will keep it in spirit and not only in word" - was that just Rayse speaking (how he as a Vessel would operate), or Odium (the binding nature of the Shard)? Taravangian was certainly looking immediately for loopholes...!

Not sure what felt off about that to you - did you expect Venli and other "listeners/singers who want to break away from Odium" to stay in Urithiru on Team Radiant? That was never supposed to be the arc. All along, Venli was aiming to re-establish "the listeners" as a neutral group free from the conflict, not serving Odium but also not aligning with a cause that leads to humanity dominating Roshar. They want to carve out space for Free Listeners. Rlain staying was not even a given, except for him being Bridge Four. He decided, for now, especially as a new Radiant and oh yeah, bonded the only other one of his spren kind with Renarin (another Bridge Four member), that his greater allegiance was with them. But he's still going to visit with the listeners eventually, and ultimately may return to them the way that Rock ultimately returned to fulfill his duties to his people. I was expecting more from the Secret of Formless' Shame than simply "repudiating her spren", but I guess killing one's spren is just such an awful feeling. I am more surprised that her returning to being a Lightweaver resulted in her forming a new bond to a different Cryptic rather than reviving her bond with the first one. I guess that was because she was still suppressing/denying those memories. But yeah. Is she going to end up double-bonded... To two Cryptics?

Tanavast: So, Cephandrius, have you decided on which Shard you'd like to take up in our little consortium? I've already bet on you taking Invention. Hoid: I'm not so sure I want to do this. Tanavast (incredulous): We're talking about godlike power. The power of divinity itself. Infinite power, knowledge, immortality! How can you say no to that? Hoid: It has its attractions, but really, too many strings attached for me. Tanavast: There's just no way you'll say that when it actually goes down on Shatterday Night. Hoid: Wanna bet a beer? No... Make that two beers!

I was actually saying the reverse: if you think she has FE era (pre-Catacendre) origins for her Feruchemy, which I personally would, while being off-world on Roshar, then it opens the worldhopper door to resolve a bunch of other open questions in the Mistborn-only discussions which frequently boil down to "but for that you'd need a Full Feruchemist who knows about using Later Metals, and they were all killed by the Inquisitors before they were known about by the Synod".

He kept the metals secret and suppressed the Feruchemists' very existence, plus duralumin is an alloy of an already incredibly rare metal for the FE in aluminum (which was "mined from inside the ashmounts", according to Yomen's memoirs as the Last Obligator), so I doubt many Teris stewards got their hands on it to play with Feruchemically. SA is supposed to take place after the Catacendre in the Cosmere timeline, I believe, so really it's not a question of "where would Axindweth get either duralumin or knowledge of its Feruchemical use" so much as "is she a full Feruchemist or a Connector Ferring?", if you read that scene with her rapid learning of listener language as a use of Connection. (Heck if it's late enough in the Scadrian timeline, she could even simply be using a medallion-like technology.)

Right, hence my point about having a duraluminmind to tap Connection (if that is how she learned listener language so quickly). It was not a metal known to the Final Empire people. But she might be descended from Terris folk who managed to worldhop off earlier, which raises very interesting possibilities for Mistborn and general Cosmere questions that often boil down to "but you'd need a full Feruchemist with Era 2 metals/knowledge for that, so, howsaboutthat?"

Rayse: "When you have an agreement with me, I will honor it in spirit and not only in word." Taravangian: "Hi. I'm the new Odium!"

OOOOOH I missssssed that

I guess Kaladin never heard Lezian's real name, because c'mon, that's just sitting right there as a taunt.

Odium II: Vargo's Revenge? And isn't it interesting that Taravangian-Odium... Sigh... "Todd" is pretty sharp, even though he Ascended while being a weepy, angry, passion-filled mushhead who could barely read? Maybe Cultivation didn't anticipate that bit, eh?

This was my take as well. I was also wondering how long ago these Feruchemists had left Scadrial. Are they full Feruchemists, or Ferrings? Also, if Axindweth "picked up" listener language so quickly by tapping Connection via a metalmind, that metal would have to be duralumin, a metal not known until after the fall of the Lord Ruler (and whose Feruchemical use wasn't known until after the Catacendre, there only being two Feruchemists in the world who were even around the metal enough to fiddle with it in Sazed and Tindwyl).

I thought it was very interesting that Hoid thought - knew - he could get away with an in-person tweaking of Rayse-Odium after building in wording to protect himself in his Latest Agreement, but immediately realized the danger he was in if "Odium destroyed the Breaths that held his memories". Something Rayse-Odium could have done all along, but was just not the type to think of doing something like that - like most bullies, Rayse thought only in terms of crushing or dominating or humiliating or destroying, not something as subtle as "I don't believe this will cause you actual harm... it seems my [predecessor's] agreements will allow me to..." And I'm thinking he did more than just snip out or edit the last few minutes of Hoid's most recent memories. He seemed to have lost perfect pitch afterward, which is something attained at the Second Heightening. So it's possible he removed enough Breaths to drop Hoid from wherever he had been to just under the Second Heightening, which could be significant. Yeah, Cultivation may have managed to settle one personal grudge in engineering Rayse the Vessel's destruction, but at the cost of now putting a much more subtle and long-term planner in the driver's seat of the most dangerous of the sixteen Shards. Please let's not call Taravangian-Odium "Todd", LOL. Maybe Tarod? (Well, that's possibly a callback to the Time Master fantasy trilogy by Louise cooper, so maybe not.)

But he was like in his stupidest / most Passionate phase of mind when he Ascended. I thought that would have somehow been reflected, but he sure sounded like Pretty Smart Taravangian afterward, didn't he? Maybe that was unforeseen by Culti?

The one positing that Thaidakar = Yesteel from Warbreaker that was last mentioned in that work as starting up trouble by "reviving Huth and Kuth", factions or nations from the Manywar on Nalthis... Where Yesteel was the one of the Five Scholars to develop "ichor-alcohol" which served as a substitute for blood in reanmiating Lifeless soldiers. Blood for dead people. Ghost blood. Given Wit's little message to pass along to Thaidakar, it seems more likely than ever, hey? Especially when it's mentioned that Thaidakar is looking for a way to help with a "similar affliction" to the Heralds' "souls wearing thin", as an effect of being a Cognitive Shadow that's existed for a very long time?

I was wondering how that was even possible. Especially when the "second" Nahel bond is to a spren of the same type. I also found it interesting that "deadeye" spren were only ever a thing since the Recreance. Surely Radiants had broken or weakened on their oathal commitments in the thousands of years before that, certainly at the "I didn't really mean to do it!" level of Kaladin with Syl in Words of Radiance if not an outright repudiation or renouncing of their bond as L'il Formless Shallan had done?

Wow. Just finished reading the book for the first time... It was everything I'd hoped it'd be, and more. Several things I'd expected or predicted even before the early RoW chapters were confirmed, if not entirely or exactly how: The Sibling going a-slumbering, Melishi's stunt with B-A-M and the zombifying of the Connected parsh, and the Recreance were all linked Sibling = a super-spren blended of Honor and Cultivation Navani bonding the Sibling, waking Urithiru Formless = Childhood Shallan The massively awful thing being suppressed was... Her killing her original Cryptic spren? But one she could summon as a dead Shardblade (in ten heartbeats) before getting a Patternblade? The nature of the Fourth Ideal of the Windrunners (many people had foreseen that one) Rlain Goes Radiant Adolin further "revives" Maya but not to full life, nor forming Nahel Bond (yet) Moash kills someone Core Bridge Four, feels nothing (Odium), but then feels, rejects, dodges that pain Skar and Drehy went as an "honor escort" to Rock Sigzil, Leyten, Lyn, Renarin Where were Lopen and Huio? They were at Urithiru and so fell unconscious, right? Things Finally Explained More Clearly: Cultivationlight = "Lifelight" Lift was twiddled to convert food into this to fuel her Surgebinding Jezrien was "sucked into" the gem but is not trapped like a spren, he just plain died Then again, this is from Kelek and "do not trust anything a Herald says, ever" Unexpected plot twists: Anti-Voidlight and now Anti-Stormlight are Things The Rhythm of War is a blending of Honor and Odium (nice touch) What about Cultivation and Odium, then? Is there a Triad Chord? Ishar also has his Blade back and is an Unchecked, Unhinged, and Very Experienced Bondsmith He can "bond" people to the earth to "ground out" their Investiture? He can steal a spren bond? And the Shin are under the control of the Unmade? "Do not trust anything a Herald says, ever" (This should be acronymed, DNTAAHSE) In fact, Mraize hinted that ALL of the Honorblades are now dispersed "Deadeye" spren were only A Thing since the Recreance?! But surely Radiants broke their oaths before then... ...In fact, isn't there an epigraph in WoR about how a Surgebinder was executed as a criminal? Saying that "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" or something? I did NOT, repeat NOT expect Odium to so casually swap out from Rayse to a new Vessel through SA4 Nor Taravangian picking it up because he was in a Very Passionate State of Mind due to Cultivation's twiddle Mysteries To Ponder: Is Taravangian holding Odium... Actually scarier than a bully like Rayse? He seems to have a similar agenda of ruling the Cosmere, but less ego-driven and much craftier Just how was it that the Deepest Ones could still do the Cohesion thing to enter Urithiru? It was key to getting Raboniel into the central pillar, but neither Masked Ones nor the Heavenly Ones could...? They mentioned how "the ancient protections have not been maintained" and how "the ralkalest has fallen from the walls of the tunnel below", as if ancient Radiants had had to rely on aluminum walls to defend against this particular Fused Surge But then, why were the Deepest Ones trapped in stone when Sibling came back to life and Navani un-reversed the polarity on the Voidlight Surgebinding Shield? What the heck was the deal with Tezim's vivisection experiments on Radiant spren in the Physical Realm? The second "Enlightened" Radiant spren we've seen is another mistspren. Two for two. Coincidence? It's mentioned that intelligent spren have to accept Sja-Anat's transformation... Mistspren more open? What should we call these "Rhythm of War" like Truthwatchers? Warwatchers? And hey, how did she convince the Kholinar Oathgate spren then? That "Horneater Clan" that is permanently in Shadesmar... Is that some kind of exile or possibly, a promotion type of community that Rock is going to be part of? And yes, I was deeply moved (maybe even cried...) over: Raboniel's immediate first use of anti-Voidlight... On her daughter Mayalaran's "speech" to the honorspren Teft's death scene The SFTV (the Stormfather Channel) vision of Tien that helped Kaladin reach the Fourth Ideal A dying Raboniel buying time for Navani, first to flee, and then to bond the Sibling (?!)

I am re-(re-)reading the early release chapters of RoW, timing it so that I will have it all fresh in mind to pick it right up at the first Interlude after the e-book downloads some time overnight. I don't have any alarm set for 1AM or anything, but if I should just happen to wake up in the middle of the night, I... suppose... I might check to see if the book has downloaded and confirm it by perusing a few lines. chapters. hours to make sure.

You didn't throw it into the fire when you finished? Tsk tsk.