robardin

My interpretation of Hoid thinking that the conversation with Odium having gone exactly as he'd imagined it would, to be more about Vargodium hamming it up Rayse-style. He already tried that the first time, but overdid it such that Hoid thought something was off. And yes, Vargodium was able to discern from the memories of what Rayse did while holding the Shard, what kind of interactions he'd had with Hoid in the past and thus what Hoid would expect from him. (However, he shouldn't have access to pre-Ascension, pre-Shattering memories of Rayse the mortal with Cephandrius, unless they discussed them at some point after he Ascended, as we saw from Mistborn ). That was the call-and-response Hoid expected. But then, Vargodium went off-script by musing, As Hoid stood there confused at how un-Rayse-like that was, he quickly tried to recover: That was what Hoid figured was "going exactly as planned" -- "Except that last part". Which is what Vargodium went back in to edit out, so that when it played out a second time, he held back on that and simply stuck to reading the lines he knew Hoid would expect. From Rayse. With any luck, the fact that he had sent Design away from him just before the First Iteration means that Design actually witnessed what had really happened, and could tell him later. Even if Design wouldn't have been privy to exactly what was said between the two, as Odium spoke directly into Hoid's mind, she could tell that Hoid for some reason fell down on his face, got up, and then re-did exactly what he had done before sending her away, even to the point of forgetting he'd already sent her away.

One thing I noted was that, when Maya ran out of strength in trying to speak at the trial, he somehow passed strength to her through whatever bond it is they have, with a warmth rising deep within him, in a kind of Reverse Nahel bond (Lehan Bond?). Where a Nahel Bond is when a Radiant spren, which is Investiture made sentient, "fills in cracks" in a human's Spiritweb, Adolin here gave of himself - perhaps from the very "Spark of Life" Investiture that comprises a living soul - to help to fill in the gaps in Maya left from the Recreance. (A bit reminiscent of my life to yours, my Breath become yours, except Adolin is neither dead nor the Rosharan equivalent of a drab, I don't think.) And, now that we know that there were no deadeyes before the Recreance - and that it's all linked, somehow, to some web of Connection and Oaths that zombified all the parsh who were Connected to Ba-Ado-Mishram when Melishi trapped that Unmade in a gem - perhaps in SA5 they'll find the gem and release B-A-M... Which restores all the deadeyes?

This rings pretty true, but then, why is there mention in his notes about honorspren having the most human-equivalent organs and even so, only surviving for fifteen minutes? And is he doing this as a prelude to experimenting on himself, who would of course be fully human? Right, or a Herald. I mean, is this something that would be a prelude to allowing them to escape their binding to the Rosharan system? Just wondering how experiments on Physical bodies for spren would carry over for something of interest to a Herald... And if it might occur to Tezim that hey, Nahel bonded Radiant spren already have a Connection to the Physical Realm. That seems like it would bode ill for our Radiant friends. And after re-reading the short passage where a mad Experienced Bondsmith with an Honorblade does things, it truly is crazy. Not only binding Radiants to the earth to "ground out" their Stormlight, but full on stealing a spren bond to the Stormfather... And did I read that right, he could even steal Dalinar's right to challenge Odium (which was separate from his bond to the SF)?

I like this angle. What's disturbing is... What is he doing to do this, and why are the spren dying? And apparently really dying. Not just "returning to the CR". We'll have found not one but two ways for spren to die in RoW - anti-Stormlight daggers (or anti-Voidlight, I guess, for Voidspren), and whatever Tezim was doing with them. And the discovery that honorspren seem to form the most human-like organs and muscles, to have survived "as long as fifteen minutes", and more are needed for further investigation... Yeesh. Clearly what the Tukari squad going after an isolated Notum were after. Would forming a Nahel Bond to the Physical Realm protect them from whatever Tezim is doing? Or would it actually make them more viable, because they're already Connected to the Physical Realm via their knight?

We don't know exactly how Adonalsium was "killed", but we do know where and when. It wasn't done in secret, either - it was basically telecast all over the Cosmere. LIVE FROM NEW YOLEN, IT'S SHATTERDAY NIGHT!

You mean, lost its kandra memories but still retaining all the "back story" memories of the human they were imitating, as well as any accumulated while in that role. I don't think kandra age naturally; if they play a role for that long, they'd have to adjust their bodies to look older, taller, heavier, balder, whatever was natural seeming for the person's progression over time. So unless an "amnesiac kandra" could do so unconsciously, that would be kind of a tell at some point. But I think this would make for a very interesting short story type of thing. The kandra who had a talent of getting lost in the role, through some kind of hypnotic effect via meditation amplified by a unique Blessing spike, who wrote down a "safe word" to snap out of it with a helper kandra who was supposed to say it to them at the right time, but who had misplaced it.

Indeed, but.... in the Rhythm of War sub-forum, as you're going into Spoiler Territory until that freeze is lifted. I see you edited your post, probably to remove mention of them? Or were you visited by agents of the Shard of Moderat

We didn't quite get all sixteen yet, right? We got a bunch more: Valor, Mercy, Whimsy, Invention; did I forget any? That's four, on top of the ten we'd had already: Preservation, Ruin, Ambition, Devotion, Dominion, Endowment, Autonomy, and of course, Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. So we're down to just two now, right? Ah, dear Prudence. Won't you come out to play? And while WoBs have said that not all Shards pair with exact opposites like Preservation and Ruin did, I still like to think the "Shard that just wants to hide and survive" is the Shard of Cowardice. To pair with Valor!

No, I agree that the signs point to there being something special about the Deepest Ones still being able to swim up to Urithiru even with the "Voidlight shield" up. I guess you're right, in-world they (Raboniel and the Deepest Ones themselves) wouldn't naturally say something like that if they'd known about it for millenia, except when they noted "the ancient protections have not been maintained, the ralkalest has fallen from the walls of the tunnel (the fools!)" and "These new Radiants know nothing!"

Yeah, I was starting to think through things like this as well. Raysodium already was very suspicious - basically believed, but looking for proof - that Sja-Anat was trying to break free; I don't know that Taravangian knew it so much as suspected it? Though I guess if he knew Renarin Kholin would be key, that he may have foreseen Renarin bonding with an Enlightened Mistspren to become a future-seeing Truthwatcher that could form a dead zone in Odiumvision. In any case, I'm afraid Renarin is in grave danger in SA5 - Vargodium will surely want to eliminate that dead zone generator, where Raysodium was somehow oblivious to it. (But he won't know about Rlain!) I was thinking "eyes" as in "ability to see the future", but yeah, interesting if she actually revived a dead mistspren while "Enlightening" it at the same time.

Good angle. But one i'd have thought they'd know about - like Raboniel or one of the Deepest Ones themselves saying "the Voidlight barrier would not affect the Deepest Ones, because the stones remember" (which as readers we wouldn't understand until later, when Venli talks to the stones), leaving the fallen plates of ralkalest as the Radiant line of defense that has failed. (I mean that could totally still be it, but it'd have been nice to add that one semi-expository sentence somewhere to give that indicator to us as readers.)

OK, no riffs on suggestive puns involving "a splinter of Honor" please, I wouldn't want this board to go to strange new places that way.

Ah that makes sense. But they didn't fall unconscious the way that the Fused did, and the way that the Radiants in the tower did when the shield got inverted. Which would still raise the question, though: why were they different? I dunno. Maybe they are of a "higher Ideal" than all the other Fused were, similar to how Kaladin was able to stay conscious, and it was thought by Raboniel that Jasnah, Shallan, and Dalinar might also have done?

Ooh, Tod with one D to mean Death. Nice. Though Odium isn't exactly that, and we have yet to see how Taravangian will redirect its... Passions. It could be less destructive, who knows? I don't think Hoid foresaw Odium going to another Vessel in the time between accepting the championship fight contract he drew up and meeting up with him to gloat over it. He definitely assumed the clause he put in there about not being able to hurt him directly would mean Odium would not "put hands" on him, which he must have thought was because that's how Rayse would have interpreted it. But Taravangian is more sly. I am increasingly sure that the whole "I am not like Honor; when you have an agreement with me, I will keep it in spirit and not only in word" was something of Rayse, not of the Shard he bore. And Taravangian is definitely someone who would look for loopholes to exploit, that's basically what the Diagram was all about.

On the first part, I thought the comparison might be with Szeth - who Zahel, at any rate, views as being similar to himself, as a echo-soul stapled back to a physical body. But hey. He can be wrong! On the second part, that is a good point - though it is curious how Rayse's corpse exists at all, as Nightblood does not typically leave physical remains when things go poof. That could be a side effect of having drawn and used Nightblood's "Shadesmar manifestation" instead of the physical sword (that itself is astounding in its implications, actually), or some kind of mix of the two - that Rayse's incompletely poofed corpse got switched or merged with Taravangian's ordinary corpse. I dunno, there are definitely multiple unusual elements going on here, not sure if they all tie into one big ball of surprise or are just different mini-reveals on different topics.

Maybe more than a human, but not 18 months. They DO eat (and "aged meat" when possible).

"What's so good about The Way of Kings?" Look them in the eyes and say: "These are the Immortal Words of the Knights Radiant: Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. Speak again the ancient oaths." And if they look suitably awed, say, "If you want to know more, here it is. -- Oh by the way, everybody's kind of an unreliable narrator. Even the divine ones."

Yes, it'd be the same clothes every time. Remember if he's using cadmium pulses, even at that length of stay, if he's Pulsing away 16 days at a time he's "only" been doing it for about 9-10 hours. Which TBH is starting to push the window on a normal human not needing to eat, drink, or eliminate. Maybe he has a bottle of water in there with him, I dunno. As for what does he need to use notes for - we don't know if he's taking notes, or reading them ("fiddling" is not clear). He might be on the lookout for something happening that is complex enough (or unfamiliar enough) that he needs to compare it against a written or drawn example. Whatever it is, he can check it from the sculpture garden. Or, he's taking recorded measurements or something. It's getting a bit farfetched, I admit; but the fact that he comes out every 16 days like clockwork really feels like a time skip thing to me, and once you're skimming through time any physical needs would seem to have a huge gap to those watching from the outside.

"I Ascended as Odium! And... My Passion is worldbuilding!"

The honorspren considered Kalak as a Cognitive Shadow to be essentially a spren, not a human, so probably not that. An Elantrian might fit the bill, as we've seen Riino at the lighthouse in Oathbringer who is a confirmed Elantrian (the Hoed who led Raoden to the Shardpool that he sank into...). He looked like a Shin human to Kaladin, and may not trigger the "he's a SPREN in human form!" alarms for the honorspren. But I believe Elantrians still need to eat? After the Hoed stuff was done with, anyway. In the short story The Hope of Elantris, the one that's in Arcanum Unbounded and takes place after Elantris, Raoden (the Elantrian) is at a dinner table with food, so one assumes he was going to eat. Unless it was just for Sarene's benefit. (Hoed didn't need to eat, but that's because they were stuck halfway between life and death.)

But to "transfer" an Aviar's bond to another person requires an act of will by the former holder of the bond. And that one had to bond the Aviar in the first place at a specific time of its life? Of course Lift being "awesome" and full of Lifelight could allow for a secondary bond...

Of those I'd say "Vargodium" sounds best, though maybe it's getting a bit familiar with the nickname, eh? Also, I re-read that passage where he Ascends, and he dies - feeling the snap of the severing of his soul as his physical body died - even as Nightblood is busy severing Rayse the Vessel from the Shard Odium. And only after that, does the released Shard decide - or feel - that Taravangian is "perfect". Doesn't that mean Taravangian-Odium - Vargodium - is more akin to Kelsier-as-Preservation in Secret History? A Cognitive Shadow that managed to Ascend? "A memory of a man holding the power will never be as potent as a real one with ties to all three Realms!"

Well, except that Bondsmiths are "Radiants without Shards" (unless that is a specific condition from the Stormfather).

Because Radiant appeared at Thaylen Fields in garnet Shardplate, I had thought that Shallan was suppressing something that represented her Fourth Ideal - but that Radiant, not Veil, was the "keeper" of that secret. And yet, Veil has dissipated but not yet Radiant. So maybe that is still the case.

Well, let's list what we know about Sixteen from what is described or relayed in RoW. They shut the doors to Lasting Integrity to outsiders about eighteen months prior to their arrival, but did not eject those non-honorspren already inside - which includes all of the seventeen humans (not including Kalak, who is a special case) that Shallan checks out initially: a group of Nalthian traders, members of a clan of Horneaters who resided full-time in Shadesmar, and this guy. Sixteen. A male human who only came out of his home every sixteen days, with a precise regularity that amuses the honorspren. He survived without food, didn't bathe, never empties a chamber pot, yet doesn't have a stench. He emerged from his small, box-like building as "a furtive figure", "hunched over, face hidden in the cowl of a cloak" that then "hurried through the statue park", where he was "fiddling with some notes" when Shallan came up to him, grabbed him, and turned him around to see his face under the cloak. He had that Shin look with a "pale, almost sickly skin and childlike eyes", "short", and "completely bald". He shouted, said something to her in a language she did not recognize, and fled back into his home. The honorspren counted him on their inventory of seventeen humans, but did not consider Kalak one but rather "a spren", as Heralds are effectively Cognitive Shadows. So would they not consider a Returned as one as well? Zahel himself basically did. So taking that at face value, that Sixteen is indeed a living human - is he subsisting without food or drink via some magical means, like a metalmind? A Twinborn who can compound bendalloy? What kind of notes was he taking, and why is he in Lasting Integrity at all? Or was he reading notes instead of taking them? What would be be looking for or waiting for, in the sculpture garden of the fortress of honorspren in Rosharan Shadesmar? How long has he been there and doing this? Or, is the regularity of sixteen days reflecting some kind of Allomantic time bubble pulse? That would explain a lot. Like, he's waiting for something to happen, and when it hasn't, he goes back into his little house and flares a cadmium "slo-time" bubble in a preset way so that when he emerges from it, it's sixteen days later? And that's why he doesn't eat, drink, or make waste. From his POV he's only been there a short while. And whatever he's waiting for, he can see from the sculpture garden, but is something he needs to cross-check with his notes (it's not something he has memorized in his head). And a Scadrian Allomancer would certainly look Shin to Shallan. Let's see: if he's been there for (say) 20 Rosharan months, that's 10 weeks of 5 days per month, he's been there for 1800 days. If each time he's Pulsing away 16 days, he's done at least 112 such pulses; if after each pulse, he comes out, checks for something against his notes, and goes back inside to Pulse again, with a total time of about 5 minutes per check, that's 560 minutes = over 9 hours hours of his personal time. Minimum. That's pretty boring. I almost hope that's not what it is! Unless what he's been waiting for is exactly what just happened, Adolin's trial, the re-opening of Lasting Integrity, and the loosening of the honorspren!