TKWade

I will say, as someone who has been working in the fintech industry for about a decade, I'm not nearly as put off as the other's by the data cube. Here is why, virtually every digital/smart device has some level of local storage. IP cameras, printers, phones, smart watches, EV's, etc. You have to be able to store some level of data so that the device is available in an offline mode. Storage tech is improving all the time, so the idea that the EV's of the future having some sort of super data cube capable of storing terabytes, or more, data is very realistic.

What's makes it unrealistic for me isn't that the data cube exists, it's that the data isn't also accessible to A., in her current field of employment, via cloud storage. That's what breaks the realism for me. The EV's would almost certainly have local storage of some sort, but would also be uploading that data to a cloud database that in her current position, she should have access to without going through the 'red tape'.

5 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Cultural appropriation: This is a touchy subject.
1) Clydesdales: I'll admit I was pulled out by this as well. I think naming them specifically would make it take place on Earth, simply because it's a very specific type of horse with a history of how it was bred. If you want to say they were huge draft horses, bred for strength, and R was always awed the size of them, that could work because you establish a history for them.
2) The same sort of thing happens when you take a bit from Native Americans/Japan/Scotland etc. Without showing a history behind them. Katanas are cool, but that's because of our culture's fascination with Japan. Why are they cool in this world? More to the point, who made them and why? It may be okay to have the same type of item that exists on Earth, but there needs to be a reason why besides "I saw it in another culture and it was cool."

Understood on both points and I'll address both. Thank you for the explanation and that makes perfect sense. Thanks!

Thank you for taking the time and I'm glad you enjoyed it! I'll definitely be hammering out some changes and I'm going over those pod casts so I can review my MC' sliders and adjust them accordingly.

@Robinski Thank you for being so thorough! And I'm glad to be back,  thanks. I took a bit of a break to step away from what I was writing and I've been dabbling with other stories and reading to try and improve my writing and character.

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• "she was beautiful” – This is an opportunity for some writing craft, to show the reader a picture of her. This is really a bit lame. Everyone’s beautiful in some way, and to someone. Why is/was she beautiful to him.

I'm kind of upset that I did this, ugh, I think the thought process was that it wasn't worth the description because while it was an important point in Rowan's life it wasn't important to the narrative. I can see that was incorrect. I think that was the first thing Kais dinged me on too, bleh. I will absolutely correct this.

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• “But at the end he would have his life back” – I feel there’s a gap here. Did he lose his life because he danced with the woman? We don’t know why he lost his life. We know bad things happened to her, but I'd be more invested in his fate knowing why he is in hiding.

I will add something to provide more clarity here.

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• “pulled by large clydesdales” – some people might not know these are horses, maybe? Also, this kind of places your story in another Earth. Also, Clydesdale is the name of a bread, and should be capitalised.

I was really unsure about this when I was writing it. I love the look of this particular breed and wanted to provide that visualization, but perhaps it would be better to outright describe. I was just trying to consolidate my words. To another question, though, so if I reference a thing, the a particular breed of an animal, that's considered a proper noun? And if I utilize a proper noun as such in fantasy then it automatically implies the story takes place in 'another Earth'? I was kind of taking liberties here because it is fantasy, so I just assumed it would be okay.

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• I think you mean ‘ruckus’ in the street? I don’t know what ‘rouacus’ is.

Eep! Will fix.

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• I feel like there are a lot of commas missing at the natural pauses, but I’m not going to mark them. E.g. though, “As Rowan approached, the man looked up.” Some might say it’s a style thing, but to me, if you omit the comma, you read “As Rowan approach the man…” and expect the pause there, but you don’t get it, so you get this kind of flat automatic-sounding sentence, without intonation. Maybe it’s just me.

I really appreciate this explanation. I'm always looking for the technical use case for commas in my writing, but I'm still learning that there are cases where it's more about style and how a sentence may sound with the pause than if it is technical or not. Thank you.

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• His forgetting the table number makes me lose a lot of sympathy for him. His whole future depends on it and he can’t remember a one digit number? It makes the character look really incompetent, which makes him harder to sympathise with, I think. If you’re going to stick with that, I think you need a good reason for him to have forgotten this. Like maybe he got badly beaten just after he received the information. Something reason for him forgetting beyond incompetence.

This was one thing I was really unsure about while writing and I tried to liken it to myself in some ways, doesn't put me in the best light lol. But, just as an example, I'll routinely make a coffee in the morning  on my espresso machine with heavy cream and it's my favorite thing; it's a ritual really and I can't do without it, but every once in awhile I'll set my coffee down on the bar top before I head out for work and forget it on the counter top. It's one of the most important parts of my morning ritual, but occasionally my mind will just skip right over grabbing my drink before leaving. The same with my house keys or other little things. I wanted it to appear more like that and less like total incompetence.

That being said, I can totally remove it while keeping the story and narrative in tact, so that may be the better option. I forget that as reads we like to imagine ourselves as the character we're reading at times. And while characters do have flaws we don't want to read or imagine ourselves as an incompetent character. 

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• Just about every fantasy book ever has a bar scene. Filling your tavern with ne’er-do-wells is kind of underlining the cliché, but I think you can kind of carry that by not drawing particular attention to it. A man walks into a bar… deal with it.

I was just setting the scene, but you're right, super cliche. In act three i swing back to this point and I think at that point it becomes valuable why i would point it out, but at the point of act one it could do with either a unique touch or like you say, a man worked into a bar and then maybe contrast a difference in act three when i get to that point.

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• R’s reaction towards violence seems naïve. This person is his saviour. Also, when he says ”You know nothing about me” I’m forced to agree. I don’t feel I know enough to identify or have sympathy for him.

I understand the last part of this, but i'm not sure i understand what you mean by his reaction towards violence seems naive? The kicking the bar stool thing was supposed to read more as an internal quip and less like an actual consideration. If it wasn't taken that way then I may need to reword it.

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• Just because someone drowns his sorrows in beer doesn’t mean he hates himself. He equally well or more likely hates someone else, or something bad that happened to him. Might just be depressed by life. R’s inclination to think what he does of the man does him no credit, imho.

I thought I kind of addressed this with my 'rough day or nightly' sentence, but perhaps not. I think if he were an alcoholic then it's more likely that a fair bit a self-loathing exists, a person hates their life, or their relationships, or their relationship with themselves, or this, or that, but often times it comes back to the persons character. There are many reasons people are addicts to food, alcohol, drugs, exercise, or whatever their flavor is. People find different ways to cope with problems, but with someone who's stuck in such a loop it's clear they're unable to cope properly with whatever life experiences they're having. I can reword this since it seems to be a bit off-putting, making such an assumption, but I don't think it's wholly untrue. He's talking about might's and maybe's. He's making assumptions about a person he knows very little about based on what that person is doing and how they're reacting to the world around them. That doesn't mean the character thinks he's better or worse, he's just making an observation. Perhaps if he spoke to the old man he'd find out a life story that would alter his perception, who knows? But he's drawing a character in a sketch pad and giving that character, the one in his pad, a life of their own. Maybe his assumption is symbolic of his own self-loathing? 

I can expand on his thoughts in the story to help more clearly define them. Do you think I'm going down the wrong path or do you think my logic above is flawed, that I'm considering this incorrectly and that I'm wrong to apply such assumption at all?

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• “couldn’t even attempt a straight line” – I would have thought this is one of the hardest things he could attempt to draw, not the easiest, which the statement implies.

Too true, I should have said something more along the lines of a 'smooth line' or some such. 

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• The action was welcome when it came, and it felt realistic, which often it is not in these situations. As we get more information about what is going on, which comes across naturally enough in the questioning, there’s nothing to place R in a better light. He’s been totally duped and seems to have been too desperate to have any suspicions. It’s hard to feel sympathy, because I don’t know anything about W and how trustworthy or otherwise he might have seemed. How did R know him? Why would R expect W to help him? Lots of questions come to mind the more information I get, so the realisation doesn’t really punch as hard as it could.

I will fix the issues surrounding his relationship with W. Thanks!
 

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• How is the priest helping W? I don’t understand the logic of the statement. Surely the authorities were out to catch W, which is why he had R stand in. So how can the priest be working with W as an asset? This doesn’t make sense to me.

So, I may not be executing this properly. There is a reveal in later acts as to why the priest is protecting W, but I want it to be clear that he is protecting him and that it's R who is taking the fall to clear W's name with the church. The Why would come later, but i'm not sure what I should do to fix this.

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• There no firm background to the setting and not all that much world-building, which leaves me a bit puzzled. There’s mention of a ‘totem’ here (Native American), swords after the style of Japan, horses from Scotland, and there are names that are Scandinavian.

This kind of circles back to horse comment above. At what point does fantasy allow the mixture of cultures? Am I wrong in how I'm approaching this? This isn't 'another Earth' fantasy, it's its own universe based off the little snippet I supplied in my email.

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• I think the notion that the only people who would go to see a burning were depraved is rather simplistic. Was this the case of people who went hangings in westerns, or to the arenas in Rome? I think not. People tend to act as society dictates, herd mentality in this situation, I think. I don’t believe for a moment all these people are depraved.

I agree, this is a poorly handled scene. I was going for this feeling that people in this universe have lived in this particular society for many years and so they're comfortable with these types of exhibitions and have even grown fond of them as a way of forgetting about their difficult lives. Almost like entertainment in a sick kind of way, but I think you're right. I need to rework their reactions.

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• R’s transformation comes out of nowhere. There’s been not the slightest suggestion of anything special about him, so I feel unconvinced. For one thing, I'm not invested in him as a character, and was not rooting for him, so I didn’t especially care one way or another. The sudden appearance of the swordsman makes me interested in him. He has agency, prowess and bravery, none of which have we seen from R.

The transformation coming from nowhere is by design because it's an innate power that he didn't know about. Maybe it will help if i fix some glaring issues with the character buy in above and maybe find someway to foreshadow the power that he's unlocking without applying it directly to him. Like, 'so and so use to exist many years go, but no longer do for x, y, z reasons and the church, blah, blah, blah'

I'll have to check out that particular pod cast!

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I also felt that there were no clues to him being special, so his transformation (if that’s what it is) comes from nowhere. Is it because of the amulet? Surely, they could have taken that away from him? If not, I think you need to show that it’s still there as he burns. If it’s not the amulet then holy divine intervention from the writer because of plot things, Batman!

It's definitely an intervention on my part to showcase his abilities. He doesn't know what he is, so i'm not sure how to properly foreshadow that to the readers when the knowledge is available from that character's POV.

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I hope these comments are useful. Sorry not to be more positive. I see no reason that the story could not work with some changes, but there are issue that are hurting it at the moment, especially the main character, I think.

Your comments were super helpful. I didn't address them all, the ones that I didn't address directly you can assume I agree with and will fix them in my story. The punctuation and phrasing comments were especially helpful. It gives me a focus to think about while writing so that I can pinpoint those errors.

Thanks again!

- First paragraph felt a little clunky, ending with overt exposition, which didn't really capture me.

- Towards the end of the second paragraph and into the 3rd i finally feel pulled in. I enjoy A's mind and how she sees the city, really good. I feel like I've heard the saying, "forest of steel and concrete." to describe a city, but it's still a pretty way of describing it, and I particularly liked the mysterious jungle phrase at the end.

- So, electric cars shift? First gear?? I'm falling out of your futuristic fantasy. I'm not a huge EV guru or anything, but even i know for a fact that full EV's don't actually need to shift or even have gears, they are unnecessary mechanical pieces. If you're writing this for a contest where the judges may know their EV tech, even slightly, this may be a point you want to shift around. Make it about the axel or, with tesla's each wheel has its own motor, perhaps one of the motors is going out?

- Wouldn't her car alert her via google map or some other cloud based traffic monitoring system of the rare traffic jam she's experiencing? If this is the future, surely being connected to a cloud traffic monitoring system would be standard. I say that only because i can already download it on my smartphone.

- So, what A is saying on p4 is accurate, BUT, I feel like the incentive to drive manually at high speeds was overlooked. It's not just that capping the speeds reduces the accidents, but it also takes away incentive to drive manually for many manual drivers. And if you can go a step further and limit their speed based on traveling speed of the road they're traveling on it may have even more impact. Just seems like an err in logic is all.

- moving on i really enjoy A's inner dialogue lol.

- p9, what about statistics on accidents, lives saved, impact to emergency personnel, etc? I know it's a short so you can't do or say everything, but again this seems like an obvious argument to counter 'money' as a moral imperative to change.

- It ended well. I really enjoyed A's banter with her dad and the problem they were trying to solve seemed absolutely realistic. 

Well done
 

Again, I have some background written up in the email that may help understand some of the terminology used in the story.

I'm looking for character buy in, story and character consistency, and assistance, if you're willing to point out and explain punctuation and grammatical errors.

Thanks for taking the time to read

I'd like to put my name out there for next week as well. Thanks!

Thanks @Robinski! And safe travels @Silk.

- nit picking, second paragraph you use ', as usual,' twice. It follows quickly and sounds redundant.

- First section read a little slow for me and it was difficult to stay engaged. I don't know what it was, but it dragged for me. Maybe the dialogue, not quite engaging enough and a little info dumpy.

- I really like concepts in your story, but I would agree with the others. Fell pretty flat overall.

I think you could cut it down and make it more a little faster, maybe then it'd be more engaging, but there were parts that just seemed to move so slow i had it skim. It's a little info dumpy i think without being engaging and that kills it quickly for me.

On a different note: I checked out your Seeds of Dissolution kickstarter page. Love the artwork! I really hope you meet your goal

Interlude 2

- I feel like the meat of this was really about getting to the story at the end. I think it could be cut down a bit, but the stuff prior to the story did build the two characters well. If the book includes these characters then the moments may hold relevance to buy-in and I'd be okay with that. It read easily, so the length really didn't bother me.

- To @industrialistDragon's comment, as boys growing up, me and my brother did similar things. Didn't compare cocks(pardon my language) per-say, but I recall being curious who had hair under their arms. Even getting facial hair early was some what of a thing. It wasn't like a focus or anything, but it would be a lie to pretend that the conversations never happened. I think it's a pretty normal part of growing up, more so, maybe, with siblings or really close friends of relative age.

- Overall, I enjoyed the interlude and the characters felt real quickly.

Interlude 3

- As a parent, I LOVE that first little bit haha, made me smile.

- Seemed to take a bit of a darker turn that I was expecting. Sounds like an interesting direction. Left me with many questions and thoughts of what could be going on.

- So, from this interlude I'm getting that Sorin and Magda are not related, but from this portion of the first interlude - “I think we’re supposed to be sleeping. Mother doesn’t like it when I’m too tired in the morning to stay awake on the boat back to Thuja.” I got the feeling that they might have been sisters. Looks like that was the wrong assumption, but I'm sure I would have known that had I read the first couple of submissions.

Interlude 4

- Well, that escalated quickly. I need to go back and read chapter 1 and 2 that you posted for more background I think, but this was a good interlude. I didn't see any problems with it that I could identify.

As interludes, they may be too long, I'm not real sure what the standards are there. Either way, for me they worked, they build the characters up for me. I felt empathy for Sorin and I felt like understood the world better at the end of each interlude. I think if anything the first needs the most work and could probably be shortened a bit.

I had a hard time telling what the exact focus is on the second interlude, but I enjoyed the interaction between Sorin and the mother. I wasn't sure if the focus was on their relationship and how meticulous/strict Sorin's mother was or on the strange we she ended up acting towards the end of it.

Anyway, hope that helps a bit

I really enjoyed this piece. I had many of the same concerns as other.

P's dialect was difficult to decipher at times. The relationship between C and your MC was interesting, but lacking the depth of a fleshed out background that would create real buy-in; this could be just a thing with shorts, I don't read them often admittedly.

I also agree with some of the aforementioned comments by others regarding the whiplash switch to robin hood'ry. The change seemed so sudden, with no back-ground, that it fell flat and lacked any emotional weight. I'm a reader who's fairly easy to please, so I typically overlook these things, but since it has already been brought up it kind of forced me to think twice about it.

I love the small, direct tid-bits of world building you drop in your story. They're super effective. I didn't have as much of a problem with your similes as others, but I can see their point. 

I would have loved to learn more about the other characters as well.

Overall, very enjoyable read for me. I would be excited to learn more about this universe and I would definitely continue reading on.

On 2/6/2017 at 9:17 PM, kaisa said:

- page four: I see we're keeping the 'arms under the breasts' line? o_O

I felt odd taking it out after making such a stink about it and saying I'd do the same with my male counterparts in the story line.

On 2/6/2017 at 9:17 PM, kaisa said:

- page nine: out on his own, meeting humans, showing them the error of their ways... woah. First, I think this purpose statement needs to be way earlier in the chapter. Second, there's that bias I was suspecting was there! It needs to be brought out more, earlier. Right now its contrary to how you have his character set up

I will do this. thank you!

On 2/6/2017 at 9:17 PM, kaisa said:

- page ten: with Lillian's new personality, I don't know why she would want to go with Stephain at all. Seems like author convenience

I will go back through the chapter and provide her more development and character motivation.

 

On 2/6/2017 at 9:17 PM, kaisa said:

- the ending confuses me on blocking. Landin betrayed them and then gets his throat cut?

I couldn't find a good spot towards the end to slide in his motivation for betrayal. The next chapter directly follows this one and will contain character motivation.

Thank you again  

Revised Chapter 3

Looking for character consistency, and motivation buy-in and logic.

I find myself having difficulty locking down Lillian, but I think I've shored up Stephain. Does the chapter flow better and remain engaging?

Thanks 

I would also like to throw my name in for next week.

@Robinski

I submitted it again on 12/5 with the second chapter. I haven't submitted anything in a few weeks, but when or if you get time, I would love an LBL.

Thanks!

On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said:

If we don't get corrected here, where will we be corrected?

So true. I've learned so much in my short time here. It's something I don't imagine I'll be able to repay

On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said:

He tried to rise again, this time slower, moving his arms under his body for more support and pushing himself up. 

Time moved slowly, and he tried not to think about how much had gone by.

Will edit.

On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said:

Overall the end of chapter 2 reads much better.  Nice edits.

Thank you

On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said:

Who's saying the first line?  I thought it was Stephain but after the rest of the first page, I wasn't sure.

I will edit.

On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said:

Your grammar and sentence structure is getting a lot better!

Thanks! Getting there slowly.

On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said:

How are Stephain and his sisters different than humans?  It's probably WRS, but you haven't mentioned anything in this chapter that makes them look physically different than humans.  Is there anything, or do they look the same?

A little WRS, but I can maybe edit this a bit to throw it in a few more places.

On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said:

I'm getting a tiny bit annoyed at Landin's speech tics - "ya" and "gonna" and such.
ETA: Oops you already mentioned that you're fixing this.  Sorry!

Yeah, i'll get this worked out. I really wanted to play around with speech patterns so i could define a character specifically by the way the speak. I really need to do more research/practicing.

On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said:

I'm also not sure why they're not more worried about Nessian outing him.

I will be fixing this. I think some of my characters and their motivations are a bit static. I'm not setting them up for a defined enough character arc, so this is definitely something I'm going to edit and change in the revision.

On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said:

My main concern is that this seems like a game to Stephain.

Yeah, this has been mentioned a few times - so it's either problem with the character or I need to really define it as a character trait. I'm leaning towards character trait/flaw. Maybe I can twist it into an interesting arc for both Stephain and Lillian.

Thank you for taking the time to read and the thorough critique!

 

This was such a good listen for me that I thought I would share it -
 

7 hours ago, neongrey said:

b ) it seemed to me you had not actually considered the physical motion involved (which is to frame a secondary sexual characteristic with one's arms, drawing attention to them).

I had considered it in the context of the situation and nessian's build, but I suppose it's less an issue of that and more an issue of the broader context of the word itself and framing the character better.
 

7 hours ago, neongrey said:

but it is something that, if it's going to be present, you need to be aware of it, and you need to be considering how it comes through in your work. This is not unique to the gaze you apply; there's all kinds of inevitabilities that need to be accounted for (the inherently political nature of art is a common one) but in all cases you work with them in pretty much the same way: by becoming aware of the preconceptions that drive them. 

Like if I thought the time I sunk into this wasn't worth it, I wouldn't bother-- and like i've said, this is the place to be doing things that need fixing, but I frustrate very easily and I don't people all that well. I'm only so able to mitigate that.

I concede to this, absolutely.

I really do appreciate the time that you've sunk into this conversation. It has been a good learning experience. Thank you neon!

4 hours ago, neongrey said:

(eg, fixating on 78 words of a 654 word crit), I am not sure the problem here is people not giving you broad enough critique.

The rest of your crit was extremely helpful, but the 78 words are what I took issue with. I suppose that's because I realise the other 576 words refer to skill deficiency and the 78 words feel more personal. They're not a problem with the writing, but my personal character. And I'm not implying that you're entirely wrong in your analysis, but I want to fully understand where I fall short in my personal character. If I'm truly falling short or if it's more a perceived fault and less of an actual fault. These are the things I'm trying to worm out because these are things I feel will have the most impact on my ability as a writer in the long run. Skill and technique I think will come faster for me, but these other inherent issues are the types of problems that follow people in their works. Whether it be writing or any other craft.

I'd concede that she appears to be cardboard cut-out. I would largely attribute this to my inability to solidify my character's motivations. I have a big problem with character buy-in. I think this is something I will just learn in time with more writing.
 

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

But because of that, we have to be sensitive to it in our writing.

This I will concede to. And using it with men

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

you're a poor writer, or a lazy writer

Whole heartedly agree. This discussion is really just me trying not to be that writer.

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

Uh, no. I have called fridging and male gaze on pretty much everyone here at some point or another, including the female writers.

Happy to hear this. I questioned it because in a lecture that I had listened to they mentioned it as a con for writing groups - basically if they see it in the writing once they can tend to see it more frequently even when it might not actually be there.

4 hours ago, kaisa said:

My point is, it may seem like I harp on it in your writing, but as 90% of the board can attest, I harp on it in everyone's writing. I don't like it. It bothers me, and contributes to the normalizing of sexualization of women. This is a critique board, so I include it with my critique. I've worked with you, both on and off board, on your writing, so I hope you can see that I am trying to help, in as much as I can.  It can be hard to have someone shake up your worldview, and you're keeping your head above water, so keep going! 

 

I'm glad you harp on me. Some change doesn't come easily and that's okay. I definitely know you're trying to help me It' so much appreciated. Thank you!

 

4 hours ago, kaisa said:

Oh! And I can totally recommend reading for you, if you'd like! I've been trying to broaden my horizons myself, so have amassed a small library recently. Just let me know, and I'll toss titles at you! 

 

Definitely! Throw a couple titles my way that you think would probably benefit me the most

13 minutes ago, neongrey said:

a) perhaps it is not on you to normalize how society sees breasts and b ) even if it were, that surely was not what was happening here.

A) I'm not saying that it is. I'm just expressing my own frustration and trying to take into consideration the best way to funnel that frustration.

B ) Based on what exactly? Preconceived connotations of a word.

That's literally the only thing that is being taken into context. And that's proven based on the context of the actual scene and character's in question as well as the fact that if that single word were removed there would be no discussion happening here. If I remove the word then she could be crossing her arms in a few different ways and the reader wouldn't know how. And maybe it isn't important. For me, writing the scene, her being outnumbered by her brother and sister, it made sense.

Body language is as important as language itself in many instances. Maybe the conversation should be directed instead on how I wrote incorrectly about how women may manifest a defensive posture using body language.

I will read outside the genre as you've suggested. I'll read books written by writers of colour, women, and the LGBT community, for sure. Like I said, I want to write in a way that I'm wholly inclusive and thoughtful. I need to gain knowledge on how to do that and the only way to do that is to read, listen, and learn.

On 12/24/2016 at 11:56 AM, kaisa said:

Women have a very, very wide variety of body sizes and shapes. Now, images of women, from classic paintings to modern models, have a very male gaze body. In imagery meant for hetero male consumption, the women most certainly would not cross their arms over their breasts. They would put them below, and that forces the breasts up. 

Absolutely true - different body types will undoubtedly create different positioning of the arms.

On 12/24/2016 at 11:56 AM, kaisa said:

By saying all women do it the same way

I don't mean that all women do. Obviously we are all individual in nature. We all have different by types.

On 12/24/2016 at 11:56 AM, kaisa said:

you, who does not have 'female' breasts, with two people who do. You are telling us how we cross our arms, and how we should feel (or not feel) about how our anatomy is portrayed in media. And I point this out because I can see how upset you are, and I want you to see how the way you frame the discussion also leads to the reactions that Neon and I have.

So, I get this, I get what you're saying and where you're coming from. I don't mean to tell you something that you're obviously far more familiar with than I am. But just to play devils advocate. This is an observable thing within certain body types and not all of those are of the Hollywood, sexy, romanticized body types. We're not talking about something that has grey area. If my character is 5'8", average weight, with small bust, my sentence is accurate and works. It shouldn't be sexual in nature, but it is because of western societal expectations and connotations with the word itself. It almost reminds me of breast feeding in public - in some other countries it's not a thing, but in the western world it's a problem for some reason. It drives me crazy. I remember when we had our first child and my wife started breastfeeding in public areas and she would talk about how she would pump in the bathroom at her work and I would read bout women feeding their kids in bathrooms - it's jacked up. It was a great experience for me because it caused me to look at things that I never looked at before or considered. And it's a similar issue to what i'm working through right now. In my view it needs to be normalized. The only time the word breast or breasts themselves should be sexual should be in intimate situations or when overtly used for attraction.

I hope I'm not stepping over any lines here and I'm trying to stay sensitive to the subject. 

It's just frustrating and I hate it. And when we have conversation's like this I often wonder to myself - if I were a woman would this have even been mentioned? If I hadn't written such a shitty male gaze in my first submission would this have been pointed out? If I were better at writing women in general would this have been glazed over because it wouldn't have been expected from me in that connotation?

I don't know. Maybe as a male writer(if I can even be called that with my current skill level) I'm at a point where I'm wondering if I shouldn't just start over. Maybe write a few shorts with Female protagonists and just spend the next while, however long that ends up being, researching the feminine side of the human condition. I can't help that I'm a male and that I have a masculine view point inherently, but maybe if I spend more time just simply doing the research, asking questions, reading material from female writers and getting into the mind set. Maybe I can get it right or at least closer.

If nothing else - I did some research and found the male writers very rarely have main female protagonist. So maybe that isn't a problem I want to contribute to anyway.

On 12/20/2016 at 5:02 AM, neongrey said:

I'm trying here, I'm really trying, because you're sincere enough and I don't wanna, like, crush you

Don't worry about crushing me. I have very little experience and i'm stumbling into it. I recognize that. Crushing me isn't going to stop me from trying to improve. It's hard reading the raw response, I wont pretend it doesn't, I had to step away for a few days to distance myself and collect my thoughts.

That's not a bad thing. It's just the process of growth. I really do appreciate what you bring to me in your critiques. You challenge me in an infuriating way

On 12/20/2016 at 5:02 AM, neongrey said:

We're really in the realm of 'cartoonishly evil' here. And "arms crossed under her breasts, leaning against the door with a self-satisfied smile on her pointed face"... I scrolled past some space given to the arms crossed line but I'm going to ask you to think, very carefully, for a moment, about what a person with breasts crossing their arms under them will actually do to those breasts, and I'd like you to ask yourself why Nessian is hiking up her cleavage at her brother and sister.

And of course she's got a pointy face, that's how we know she's evil. This is beyond cliche at this point.

So, I agree with everything else you've said in your crit, but i'm only going to address this as it's something you and @kaisa have both pointed out and it's really bothering me quite a bit.

So, breast is not a sexual word in and of itself, it needs context in order for it to be considered sexual. If a woman crosses her arms, elbow to elbow, they fall directly below her breasts. If you look at images of women crossing their arms, guess where they fall, almost always? Directly below their breast. If you look at images of men crossing their arms, guess where they fall? You guessed it. Below the breast.

I made no sexual reference in my chapter at all. None, not about Nessian OR Lillian. I never said Nessian was hiking her cleavage. How do you know she even has cleavage? I didn't mention it. Made zero reference to it. You're inferring, and for what reason I don't know. She's his sister and he hates her. I make that clear even BEFORE the scene, so why would he have cause to notice her cleavage? He doesn't, he notices her posture standing in the door.

I even did a bunch of searching on this and it was actually quite hard to find material on it.

I did find this article(Not really an article just a forum question) with mixed responses regarding WoT - https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/2ishu4/female_fans_do_you_fold_your_arms_over_or_under/

Is it not possible that RJ used the description because it simply is just that? If he didn't use it consistently across his books with men, then that would be a problem, and honestly i don't recall if he did or did not. But I will absolutely commit to that consistency in my books.

I'm a pretty shitty writer at the moment, but I plan to improve. This is a hiccup on a long road of finding my voice. Figuring out how to create consistent characters, understanding what to do and what not to do. What is appropriate and not appropriate. How to keep a consistent narrative. How to write sensitively. I'm going to blunder and I'm going to make mistakes. I will concede that. I just don't feel like you're reading that line with an objective eye. I think you're both looking for it and you're creating a scenario that doesn't actually exist.

I overuse the word delicate to describe Lillian's voice, that's more of a technical error than anything else in my opinion. I should either omit it after the first use or find another way to describe it. I was using it as a way for the reader to know that Stephain knew who the voice was coming from before I identify the character by name. It's just really poor technique on my part and lack of experience.

I'm not trying to offend, so I hope you don't read the response in that way. But I feel that I'm being accused unfairly. I'm taking such issue with it not because i'm being charged unfairly or that I'm being unfairly treated, but that I may be in the wrong in my presumed use of the word. It bothers me because I don't want to be that guy or be responsible for continuing a bad trend in entertainment.

 

2 minutes ago, kaisa said:

Now, for funsies, I think it would be delightful if you used the word across the board with males and females. That would be awesome.

Challenge accepted. Maykn, Stephain, and Alaxtrim will be crossing arms under their breasts all day every day lol

On a serious note - thank you for taking the time to identify the holes in my logic. I'll take what you've said into consideration in future revisions and new chapters.

2 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

A "flying autowagon" sounds a little too much like a flying car. I'd find a better term

I know I hate it! lol I can't think of anything - they're closer to flying carriages than your traditional car. I just hate to use an unfamiliar term to describe them. I'll fine something.

2 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

- The dialogue between Stephain and Lillian isn't working for me for some reason. I know they are supposed to be from another race, but all their conversations about ideology and the nature of the humanity feel a little too lofty and on-the-nose.

 

I'll see if I can find a way to fix this. They're supposed to be having kind of this ideological discussion that is taboo within their culture. 

2 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

- I am liking this story more and more with every chapter, especially with the introduction and interaction between Stephain and Lillian. I'm curious where this goes. 

Thanks rdpulfer!

24 minutes ago, kaisa said:

I'm going to pray no one throws anything at me for saying this but... you know who the biggest fans of Robert Jordan books are? White males. Male gaze. White male author. Yes, many authors sell books with this stuff in it, because it sells. Sex sells. Male gaze sells. And sometimes it is appropriate. If you're writing a lecherous character and he notices boobs everywhere, that works. If your male twin had the hots for the female twin, it would work (and that would be a great, subtle way of letting us know that). But otherwise, it's sexualization of the female body and seeing women only for their attributes that men (or those attracted to women, to be inclusive) find valuable aesthetically. We all copy wording from our favorite authors. I just wish editors of these big-name books would take some responsibility for this, because it really does impress the writing style into newbie authors, and the cycle continues.

As something to contrast (and perhaps I've mentioned this before), my editor had to ask me if Ne had breasts. In the entirety of book one, not a single reference is made to her chest. She isn't viewed as a sexual object in book one (this of course changes with M POV in book two), and in her own POV her breasts would never come up (I never think about mine. Like, ever, unless I slam one into a wall or something). 

 

All things considered though, I remember the male gaze issues from your very first sub and you have just exploded in terms of skill with female characters since then. Keep at it!

 

Yeah, I mean, I never honestly thought of it as a sexual way of saying it. It's more about anatomical positioning, and it's Nession, not Lillian. That matter's, if only because it should be clear to the reader that there is no love lost between the two and so a sexual connotation should not be taken from the description. She's a woman with breasts, her arms crossed with hands touching either elbow which would put them just below her sternum/breasts/chest.

I considered this because I wasn't really sure. If I say chest what does the reader infer? That like Ne she has no breasts? Does it really matter that I use the word breast? Does it make them exist any less? Are they this mystical thing that should not ever be mentioned unless it is explicitly stated the character noticing that they exist is lecherous or that the individual noticing has an attraction to said female? Will it be thought of in a sexual way? I'm using it as a descriptor for a defensive posture of the arms, not as a sexual innuendo. I don't describe Stephain as leering and he makes no remark, or other thought, other than her leaning casually against his door frame with her arms crossed under her breasts. Which is where they are.

I took that reference from Jordan and thought, this isn't sexual in nature, it accentuated that she was a woman and described her anatomical position both. It wasn't meant to sexualize or sensationalize or anything of the sort. I spared a word for it, not even a sentence.

Part of my thought process was also, if I mention it non-chalantly like it's any other body part - because really it is - then it shouldn't be a big deal. It shouldn't be a thing. Breasts are breasts. They're just like your elbow, your hand, your foot, your head, your butt, any other part of your body.

I will try my best to keep the male gaze down, because I think I understand where you're coming from. But that's something that really has to be taken into context and it wasn't here I don't feel. I will try to read more female authors to help define descriptions of positioning better, what's appropriate and what's not. I'll do more research.

Thank you for learning me  and being patient - I'm sure it's annoying lol