TKWade

3 minutes ago, kaisa said:

Basically, I think as long as you get words on a page, it doesn't matter how you do it. Everyone is going to have a way that works for them.

I was just curious what people have been successful with.

I find myself in this situation where - I want a complete a 1st draft by June or July and i'm just not writing fast enough. Part of that reason is how much time I've spent on my prologue and chapter 1. I sit there and think, this is silly, I'm not making progress on my story. I am, in some ways, but i'm not moving the story forward.

I then run into issues like I have in my chapter 2 where I have a scene that just doesn't make sense in the world that I have created. I'm going to have to do some major revision to that chapter to really make it work. And i'm only about 1/4 - 1/2 through chapter 3. That is as far as i've gotten.

I'm not much of a planner and i'm not extremely organized, so i think getting a detailed outline is kind of not my style. I'm a type of person that find scenes or characters in my head and think. I want to see this happen in my story - how do i get to this point?

I'm going to try writing out as far as I can to see how it works for me. Even if it's garbage i'm putting words on paper and i'm building a story that can be reshaped and it'll give me some sense of direction. 

 

Question on writing strategies.

I'm listening to a Sanderson lecture and he's talking about writing a book through a whole 1st rough draft before doing any revisions. And then doing total revisions with having a whole picture of the flow and making changes, cutting characters, etc., at that point. What are everyone's thoughts on that type of process? 

I can definitely see the benefit for myself. I've been writing chapter by chapter and doing bits of revision - granted i'm not nearly as educated in writing as he was when he first started - and i find myself needing direction on my own story to resolve some of the issues i'm running into: Character development, engaging plot, making the story make sense, etc. 

Thoughts?

3 hours ago, aeromancer said:

In terms of swordplay, my problem isn't the time spent practicing so much as her being described as  I'm not well versed in how long it takes, but assuming five hours a day practice time 300 days fighting time fifty years is 75,000 hours. That's seven and a half times the ten-thousand hour rule. A should be a swordmaster, perfectly at one with the blade, a master of the craft.

This depends on how you define mastery, which is an element i'm excited to hit on my book. I don't see mastery as having an ending. I see mastery more as an idea. There is no 'Mastering' of a craft. There is only the journey of mastery and that journey has no end. You don't become a swordsman who has mastered the art of the sword, it is your practice. It's unending because you don't aspire to become a master, but to enjoy the process of practice and learning. I would say that true mastery lies in being able to fully enjoy the process of practice in any particular craft. If you can find that fulfillment, that joy, in practice, then you have found the master's journey.

It's all about how you look at it. But in my view. No amount of time is too long to practice to achieve a higher level of skill.
 

13 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

TAIG (Thoughts As I Go): The opening paragraph is alternating between a destroyed city, and a window sill. It splits my attention. The couple seems like a potent warrior pair, so I hope there’s a good reason for them not to be fighting. Fifty years dedicated to sword mastery is an awful long time.  So, why torture him, instead of killing him outright?

I've edited the opening paragraph to resolve this issue.

They're not fighting because the letter is more important, but spending time on that importance slows the prologue down, so I've opted to just assume the reader will recognize this. I may need to make a more explicit statement, but I can't waste more than one small sentence on it at most.

I don't bring it up, because it's a prologue, but 50 years is a short span in her life. She's quite young. He's not killed because he's going to be used.

 

13 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

Notes: A prologue. I like prologues, it gives you something to figure out during the rest of the book until it is explicitly explained. I can only assume this prologue is in the far past, you may wish to label it as such.

I try to allude to the time line in the epigraph of chapter one.

13 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

I’m confused about the interrogation, is there a reason M wasn’t killed outright? What could he know that could be worth torturing him for? (Also, I have a hard time keeping up with names)

There is, but i did a poor job of plotting it out in a reasonable way. I'm going through some major edits with chapter 2 for this reason. It's very unconvincing.

13 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

Are S & N identical twins? M didn’t recognize them as such, so I assume not. Also, are the twins completely opposite personality-wise? It seems they are

They are not, S is male and N is female. They are similar but different despite the same up bringing. The next chapter focuses solely on their relationship, so that comes to light pretty quickly.

@aeromancer: Thank you for reading and giving me your thoughts!

You play any video games? You can find some games like elder scrolls that have super in depth character creation screens. You can use that to help visualize perhaps? I actually pull some of my characters from character's i've created in game lol. It's silly, but it works for me.

Also, is that wrench N uses like Mjolnir? Thor's hammer? I got this impression from the dialog that only she could pick it up like she was crazy strong.

@aeromancer: I enjoyed the characters, but they lacked solid grounding and maybe that's what neon is getting at. I didn't get a sense of any of your characters outside the dialog. I wanted more description and characterization. They are fun characters and I get that sense. I think they could really shine personally.

Also, I understand what you're saying about the briefing, but that wasn't really conveyed. I figured that was probably the intention, but because it wasn't conveyed it came off really out of place and kind of annoying. You may need to ground this idea better that this group of mercs is super atypical. I get that feeling the further I go along, but it seems like at least 50% of your dialog would have more impact if it were known upfront that they were an odd bunch. 

I think the characterization bit could go a long way. It would fix that armory part as well as others. I understand your intention, but dialog doesn't carry it. You could just start off that scene by saying, Seyn looked around unimpressed, "This is the armory?" or "This is the armory?" Seyn said, unimpressed.

The way you said it reads a little stilted and it reads as a genuine question "Hi. Is this the armory?" uh, duh, it's full of weapons and armor... it makes the MC look stupid, not flippant.

 

I'm just going to skip right to the second scene. (I read the whole thing and I enjoyed the first scene.)

With context I'm sure I would have understood better what's going on, but in the exchange it felt like L came out over Mel with the final contract. From my perspective, without clear context, it felt like a win. I'm sure there is more meaning inherent in that deal than I'm pulling away from it. I need to catch up on a few of your previous chapters. 

But then it gets a little weird towards the end. L seems like a woman who takes what opportunities come her way to advance her social status as well as career, but at the same time she kind of reads like an independent mind. So the bit with her and E getting paired up like they did came across odd. I just expected her to balk at the idea a bit more than she did. Maybe not outwardly considering social status, but in some form. Then again, that's coming from a place that lacks context on her character or her feelings towards Eshrin.

That's probably not much help :S sorry.

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 21: last line doesn't have any impact, because I don't know enough about MC's current life to get excited about a new beginning

I might be able to fix this within chapter one and a bit in this chapter. I'll edit.

As always, thank you so much Kaisa, your input is always invaluable!

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

That first line would have more punch if you just ended it at burn.

Edited

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- infernal? Did you mean 'inferno'?

I did. fail. edited.

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

For instance you use 'fog' twice in as many sentences on page four, top paragraph.

Edited. I'll have to read through it more times to catch the other words.

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- the short little paragraph at the top of page seven is just beautiful

I think that was your short little paragraph

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- using the word 'beloved' at the end of page seven is overkill, however. Just replace with husband

Agreed. Edited.

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- The battle scene stretches a little too long, especially for a prologue. Suggest removing about two pages from it to keep tension going without making readers bored

I love battle scenes  but okay... sulks away

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page twelve. Woah with the new names. Too many. I will never keep them straight

I've removed a couple of names The Trelian and Radalf. Radalf is completely unimportant at this point. The Trelian may have some broader importance, but again, adds nothing. But in large there are only a few entirely new names. I may remove Delver as well. It is important just not to this chapter.

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 13: is she a Vulcan?

Anything is possible in fantasy land, right?

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 13: the messed up hair thought seems out of place noting the other thoughts you've shared from your MC

You're right. I've edit'd this and the prison Ortan flippant remark out. I just want to inject a little humor into the story, but not at the expense of character consistency. I have a character coming that adds that, so It may be okay.

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 13: ugh. So. Many. Names.

I didn't think i had that many new names

 

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 14: it's so early for The Weapon to be introduced. Eye roll happening here

this isn't The Weapon, it's just a type of weapon. It's important for a number of reasons, but I didn't mean for it to have that kind of cliche feel of, "oh no! the weapon to end all wars!" but i can see now how my dialog definitely pushed it in that direction. I will edit it.

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 15: why tell him about the swords if they just have to kill him if he knows? This is confusing

I need to work on this. I need a more compelling reason than, "your father was of great service and this is out of respect for it, etc." It doesn't jive with the narrative and it isn't convincing. I want this scene to happen, but this may be a flop chapter for that reason.

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 19: honestly, I'm bored at this point. I was moderately invested when the MC was being hauled around, but since I have no grasp of this world or the people, this dialogue with this not-human bald female falls flat

I'll shorten/cut this down - I can see what you're meaning. Will Edit.

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 20: motivation fail. Why are the siblings helping the MC, and why does he trust them? Too many questions, too many characters, not enough tension or character development

I kind of likened it to Moiraine and Rand in Wheel of Time- he had no reason to trust or go with her, but he did because he was in obvious trouble. Like wise, Maykn has only two choices in that cell. Wait to be tortured and killed, or follow an individual who's race has suppressed and murdered his people but is for some reason helping him. Die or maybe die. That's kind of what I was going for anyway. He isn't going with S because he trusts him, but because he has no other viable option.

As I go.

P1.
-The first sentence was good. I was intrigued about what the Nest would be. I felt like the rest of that paragraph kind of fell flat though. I didn’t get any sense of what the Nest was, so I lost my intrigue from the opening sentence.

-The third paragraph could be cut down and you’d hold tension better there. I think you’re overusing adjectives – this is a huge problem that I run into for myself. For instance, we know his hand his going from the ship to whatever, all that is important is the destination of his hand. You could say, “S spun around, his hand going to the concealed revolver in his coat. A girl with closely cropped hair wrapped in a greasy bandanna stood there pointing a wrench at him.” It could probably be written better yet, but I think it flows better.
 

-more unnecessary descriptors when S raises hands
 

- I think you could cut the last sentence of dialog from N. makes that part feel stilted and it doesn’t match N’s characterization so far.

P2 – P4

- I really enjoyed the dialog and back and forth here.
 

P5 – P6

-          The idea that he’s the first to speak with a type of question seems odd. It seems out of character, possibly.  If it’s a briefing, shouldn’t the individual coordinating the briefing be the first to talk and explain. Wouldn’t he know that? If he has extensive military experience that initial response seems out of order. Etc.

-          I might be wrong here, so correct me if I am, isn’t it usually customary to give the full briefing and then have questions after? If that is customary, then it seems odd that S keeps interrupting the process with questions. It just seems odd. And I could be totally wrong. Just an observation.

P10

-          With weapons lining the walls he had to ask about it being the armory or not? I’m not sure I like the start of this scene, but we’ll see how it progresses. I would probably skip the first two lines of dialog or find a way to fit them in after the description of the armory.

P12

-          I feel like you’re over using dialog for exposition. I’ve seen it a couple of times now where it gets too explain-y during the dialog. But here is a good example. D’s paragraph where he talks about what weapons he’ll take.

P17

I like the twist of the admiral being his mother lol


Overall: I really enjoyed the banter, but you could dial it back a bit probably. Some of it was a bit stilted and some of it was wholly unnecessary. You had some really good lines that made me smile and some that made me cringe a bit. I think you have this really awesome concept going on and it kind of reminds me of firefly or guardians of the galaxy.

I find myself wishing i had better imagery of the people in the dialog. 

I really like it overall, but there is definite room for improvement.

Feel free to skip the prologue - it's a revision and I know I went over on the word limit, so I'm sorry! It's just a short chapter so I wanted to squeeze it in, but it didn't really fit.

Looking for character consistency, pacing, tension holding, etc.

My punctuation is not great, but if you want to nit pick it I'm all for it, or even if you want to pick a page to nit pick and explain why the punctuation is incorrect that would help a lot. I have much to learn.  

Thanks for reading!

I really enjoyed the last three pages. But man. Those first pages were really difficult to get through. I think others have pretty much nailed all the problems with it. Cut it down and get to the substance of the prologue quicker. It takes too long to really engage me.

Can I get in on this alpha stuff? I'm super far from being at that step for my book, but I think I could benefit from reading and being apart of the thread.

I would also like to submit on the 5th.

Things I'm interested in after reading it. The work structure at the spires and how Laurea is going evolve and move up through them. I say this, but I say it without a real good sense of WHO she is. I understand that she's not just a hardworked but a smart worker as well. That's it thought.

I'm intrigued to find out what an Atramancer is.

Other than those two things it feel pretty flat. As mentioned, for a chapter 1, I think you need a much stronger hook. I would have put this back probably because it just didn't grab me. I read the first paragraph and just didn't have a reason to keep reading. I didn't feel engaged at all.

In the first bit I get the sense that Laurea is going to be this strong, independent, free thinking style woman, but then dialog hits and it's like she's a completely different person than described. I don't feel like she has her own voice.

You have intriguing elements, keep at it. 

1 hour ago, rdpulfer said:

How will this usher in an era of new technology?

I want to leave this unknown because the answer is pretty sinister and each chapter will dive a little deeper into it. It's really vague and confusing right now, but it's probably one of the most important pieces of information to the story

1 hour ago, rdpulfer said:

- I'm still confused by who and what is a Dreg six pages in.

- Also, how are these characters? They are old enough to work in the alloy mills, but that doesn't exactly narrow it down. And since they are playing pretend, it feels like they should be younger?

- Looking back, I guess I was confused about Dregs because the two characters were about to play a game of pretend, and I couldn't tell if they were pretending to be human, pretending to be Dregs. I didn't realize humans were dregs until far later in the submission.

I'll see if I can find a good way to throw age in there.

Thank you for reading it!

6 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

However, having read the first chapter, I wonder what the point of the prologue was. The prologue seemed to revolve about the letter which had to be read in 500 years. You made a point of saying the letter couldn't survive if it didn't make it to the temple, which it didn't. So if the letter won't be making an appearance in the main story, why do we need it as focus of the prologue? (There could be other reasons for the prologue, of course.)

31 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

I also picked everything up I needed to from this chapter, so I don't think the prologue is needed, unless those people somehow appear again.

The prologue characters and letter come back into play. I've adjusted it quite a bit and i'm doing another revision on it to shorten it and clean it up, but it serves a few purposes: It introduces Alandria and Lyzell and their relationship; it talk about a letter that was supposed to be delivered somewhere to someone, but we're not really sure where, when, or who, but it does come back into play; it puts a fantasy world into the readers mind so when they read the first chapter it creates an interesting dynamic with the tech that's available; and last it introduces Osha and creates this setting where the reader knows Osha is a bad force and knows, based off the content of chapter one, that Osha won.

6 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

P4. "Sword training every day you agreed to play Knights" - Shouldn't that be the other way around?

This is written correctly. Maykn wants to play this game with Jess and Jess wants training. That's the trade off. It's akin to me wanting to play video games or to write to take a moment to escape life and reality. It's a welcomed distraction. For a Dreg, that's hard to come by which is why Maykn enjoys it.

6 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

P5. "If you could sell it then you could probably find a vendor on Lorli trying to sell it." - Repetition of "sell it" in the same sentence.
Right beneath that, you have "watchful eye" two times in as many lines.

I will edit this.

6 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

P7. "It's like sixty-five degrees outside.It's beautiful." - Fahrenheit or Celsius? Because it's beautiful I assume it's a warm day, meaning it would be normal for Maykn to sweat. Personally, I try to avoid using any real-world units, unless it's really clear what I mean by them.

Also good call, I'll edit this as well. Thank you!

6 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

P13 to 18. The Vorin starts off talking rather brutish ("What are doing?") but he ends up talking in full sentences with some rather big words, it feels inconsistent to me.

I've had a couple of people comment on this. I didn't mean to portray that type of mood in their first meeting. He was short with them because he's an chull, but he isn't unintelligent. I'll rework this dialog to make it appear more like the end of the chapter. He's smart, but he has a bit of a volatile temperament too.

 

6 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

Sorry, it's off topic, but I have to ask: did this happen at a Terry Pratchett convention?

I've never been to a Terry Pratchett convention so I'm not sure >.<

31 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

but I'm not sure of the overall tech level.

It'll become more apparent as the story progresses. I didn't want to spend a ton of time on it in the first chapter and get lost in world building. 

31 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

Also, FYI, "Vorin" makes me think Stormlight Archive. May want to adjust the name.

It's been several months since I've read Stormlight Archive, so I didn't initially make the connection, but you're right! Dang! I'll have to adjust the races name. Thanks!

31 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

pg 17: "I can't smell the heat"  - is this supposed to be "I can smell the heat?"

You're correct. I'll edit this.

@Mandamon and @Eagle of the Forest Path Thank you both for reading and for the time spent on the critiques!

4 hours ago, kaisa said:

B.) made me wonder if maybe a little something something was going on there.

Yikes - definitely not intended haha! I'll edit this and streamline it. 

4 hours ago, kaisa said:

- still issues with comma and semi colon use

I'm really struggling with this, but I'm reading up and doing online exercises. I'll improve eventually. I'm not at that spot where it has really clicked yet. I'm kicking myself for drawing instead of paying attention my Highschool English courses.

5 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page five: you keep using the word subjugation but I'm not actually seeing any subjugation happening

I'll work on this. This has been a state for centuries, so humans have been indoctrinated for many generations. The lack of seeing it may be because it's so normalized in their culture, however, I will try to provide more details and examples and add in hints and tidbits. Thank you!

5 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page seven: I think 'beat' is what the sound is called. So if you italicize it it would be something like lub-dub, lub-dub. Beat would just be written normally.

In your opinion, which works better?  lub-dub, lub-dub. just seems to read weird. I think personally I'd go with a simple un-italicized Beat.

5 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page eight: having eat rat on a stick myself, I can tell you that this scene is not very accurate. They may be skinned, but street rats are bony and you really have to work for that meat. There needs to be more blocking here.

 

I will edit this. Thank you for eating a rat so that I can get it right

5 hours ago, kaisa said:

- top of page nine is infodump

I will edit.

5 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page nine: I'm confused. What is a 'dark-mannered' woman? Did she get executed or did she execute another woman?

Broody? Cloudy? A mask of discontent? Generally unhappy? instead of saying "... she executed a woman ..." should I say " ... she executed another woman ..." ? 
 

5 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page ten: I don't have enough world buy-in to care why they are training. Need more reason first

Will Edit

5 hours ago, kaisa said:

- yeah, the explanation on page twelve should be moved up much earlier

If I move this up earlier - would you say that resolves the previous issue or should I illuminate the tournament or the characters feelings towards it more?


@kaisa Thank you for taking the time to do the critique! 
 

@aeromancer Thank you for taking the time to read and to let me know your thoughts!

 

22 hours ago, aeromancer said:

Your fights scenes are excellent, as well. As much as I enjoy swords, I prefer protagonists who don’t wield standard weapons

Agreed!

22 hours ago, aeromancer said:

I see. Vorin is the dominant race, and they are empaths. The flashback is a bit long though. Maybe cut out the last paragraph?

Adding to edit list - Thank you!

22 hours ago, aeromancer said:

I’m not sure about extending the bouts, as the first is done well, but you could make a reference as to how each is one to fill it out a bit more. I was initially confused about the Tah’sword, you may want to clarify that. All in all, I appreciate the start. Maykn looks like a good protagonist, a free thinker in a depressed world who fights with an atypical weapon. Maykn could also use more of the spotlight in the opening paragraphs, Jess somewhat steals it.

Also adding suggestions to edit list - Thank you again @aeromancer!

 

Looking for character buy-in, hooks, character consistency, pacing.

I'm considering shortening the part with Jess a bit - he's really a minor character and more than that, I'm worried that it slows down the chapter too much. thoughts?

Also, i had a suggestion to extend Alaxtrim training - I breeze over the last three bouts. I could do that, but I was worried about it feeling redundant and dragging the chapter out unnecessarily. I could inject some relationship building, world building, and character development, but I'm not sure it would be to the benefit of the story.

Thanks for taking time to read over it!

@Robinski Congratz on both!

I'd like to sub on the 21st if there are still slots available.

Hey Everyone,

I'm looking for a critiquing partner to look through my chapters before I submit to help refine pacing, character dev, dialog flow, etc. and also, to just bounce ideas off of.

If anyone is interested I'd be willing to do the same for you, go ahead and message me.

Thanks!

I'm not going to be ready for submission on the 14th, unfortunately  someone may have my spot.

I will 100% second Mandamon on the use of Strunk and White's The Elements of Style. I've started using it as a constant reference.

One thing you could do during your revision that would help is go through each sentence and ask yourself these questions:

Does this sentence drive the plot?
Does this sentence drive character development?
Does this sentence drive world building?

If it does one or less of those things you may consider removing it or rewriting it. Ideally, you want to hit all three points with every sentence. It makes revisions take forever, but the more you do it the faster you'll become at it. That's basically where I'm at myself. My hope is that eventually do it as a second nature even in my rough drafts.

Here's a great lecture Sanderson gave where he spoke on this:
 

It's two hours long, but I would encourage you to watch all of it. It was really helpful to me.

I'm really new to writing and recently made my first submission as well. It can be hard getting the first critiques; they can seem quite brutal, but take them in stride. Don't let your voice get lost in attempting to incorporate all of the critiques; keep submitting.