TKWade

2 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 1: a lot of time spent looking around his cell.  Maykn only notices the pain much later, which would probably be the first thing to hit him upon waking. If some of my nails had been pulled off, I would be aware of that well before noticing the lighting and the toilet.

 

Will Edit

2 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 1: "What in the world--He didn't see any creases in the wall, how could that be?"
--unneccessary

 

I may need to rework this part the intent is to put forth that he created the door - not that it already existed.

2 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 4: "They were the first twin-born in all of Phearisiawithin the last several centuries"
--eh, I'll accept it I guess, but I'd want to know more about why this doesn't happen and why it's so important.

 

Will edit.

2 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 6: "Lillian set the glass of wine back down on the automaton's tray and sat on a nearby floating chair. It adjusted its height for her comfort. She pulled out a mirror and began checking her make-up"
--yeah, so nothing's happening and they're aking idle conversation about humans.  Not much tension. It's also a bit of a maid-and-butler, discussing whether humans would
do the evil thing if they knew the evil thing was happening. This goes on into the flashback on the farm which, while illuminating, doesn't really move the story forward.

 

Will edit.

Thanks Mandamon, much appreciated

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

By the end I was invested in the Dreg situation, but not in any of the POV characters presented. The twins just sound like entitled teenagers, which does not endear me to them, and the reasoning for heading into the humans reads more like a YA adventure story than what you've presented before. Also, there is a huge clash between the memory of the Matrix and the little boy, and Stephain's motivations for going to the human camps. 

 

This seems to be a common theme for me - struggling to create strong investment in characters.

I'll work on their motivation a more to try to create a more engaging dynamic and conflict.

So, I was not at all going for Matrix lol - but what do you mean by clash? I thought they fell in line pretty well. He's sympathetic because of their treatment and that's part of the reason. I can cut the line about being his own man, maybe i need to be more subtle OR i need to include an additional scene before either of those that is with him an his father. Stephin is in his late teens and his father is extremely prominent. He has a lot of pressure on him to follow suit basically, so i need to maybe put more in there regarding that earlier in the chapter.

4 hours ago, kaisa said:

Too much discord between motivations

I'll try to iron this issue out.

4 hours ago, kaisa said:

none, as of yet. I feel no stakes for anyone presented in this chapter, and as both sisters are presented, I am marginally wary of future chapters involving them.

I'll work on this more - i think really nailing their motivation and desires might fix this whole issue.

4 hours ago, kaisa said:

- end of page six: so... the Matrix?

NO!  this is not like the Matrix at all. The matrix is a program, there is no program. I understand the connection, but they really aren't the same in plot or motivation.
 

4 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page seven: unless there is some reason the brother is calling attention to his sister's breasts, she should be crossing her arms across her chest, or hugging her waist.

I was unsure even as i was writing this. It has how I have seen it done several times in Robert Jordan's books which is why I worded it the way I did - will edit.
 

4 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page eight: what was the point of having Nessian enter the room?

There will be conflict between her and her siblings - eventually Maykn as well. Obviously i need to work on the conflict further in this chapter and maybe solidify that tension.

4 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page eight has a lot of random tense changes

- page nine: Did we change to first person at the top of the page, or did the italics just stop too soon?

 

Yeah, i was playing with past perfect tense because he's remembering something further in the past, i just failed.

Total slip on my part - i think i was just in the moment and then missed it on my read throughs.

4 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 12: does the sister also get an eye pendant thingie?

Totes

Thanks for the crit Kaisa!

So, I noticed in the first few pages of the second seen in chapter 3 that I didn't correct some of Landin's dialogue - specifically you'll probably notice that his speech patterns change about halfway through. That can be overlooked because I'm already correcting it. But, if the dialogue seems stilted, or that it doesn't make sense even so, let me know.

Last scene chapter 2

Looking to see if it holds tension better, flows better, did I fix my wander narrative issue?

Chapter 3

Looking for tension holding, pacing, character buy-in.

I'm concerned about Nessian buy-in. I'm aiming for the reader to really despise this character, but I don't spend much time on her in this chapter. I may need to build her out more in the scene.

 

I'll go ahead and sub too - i have a chapter finished, but it's a bit out of order - possibly.

@Chaos Thanks! Hope everything is going okay for @Silk!

Wanted to see if people were willing to share tools or tips that they use when world building - organizationally.

I've tried file system - each object being it's only document: Characters, City, Nation, Magic systems, Geography, Religion, Social Classes, Technology, Etc.

I've recently started to migrate these things to a single document in google docs using document outliner, so that i don't have to move between documents.
 

Anyone willing to share other tools or devices that they use to organize and keep track of it all? I just find that I sometimes lose myself in the details.

@Mandamon If you don't mind I would love to hit you up at some point, but it wont be for some time. I'm not in the realm of close lol I have much ground to cover in regards to improving my writing.

@neongrey @kaisa @Mandamon Thank you for the detailed info, super helpful - just looking for goals, so I have a target.

What are thoughts on self-publishing? I'm far off, but I'm just doing some prelim research and wanted to know what other thought vs the traditional route.

Yeah, I love google docs - my savior. I'm on google docs too much at work. It's a problem.

have you looked into google keep at all? i'm just a google fan boy lol

Wow, that is an incredibly poor move on their part. I bet that gets rolled back shortly after release.

To everyone posting I just wanted to say thank you for the great and thoughtful discussion. It's really eye-opening and I'm taking in so much information. It really gives me a sense of hope moving forward in writing. I definitely wouldn't be progressing in the same way that I currently am without your help and guidance. So, thank you. Makes me excited

2 hours ago, kaisa said:

Vasin, which is much more 'here is this male character and implied appearance of normality except where I select small areas to call out'

I think I need to flesh out the Vasin better because while the two who are in the story happen to be male - they are not at all human like and there for don't have an implied appearance of normality - they're bestial.

In regards to women, I can definitely see what you mean and this is just going to take time and practice on my part. I have what I think is a good reason for Lillian and I need to make sure I really include Stephain in this because they're twins in the same vein. They're both supposed to be crazy attractive individuals kind of like Galad in WoT. 

Okay, that makes far more sense which I would agree with.

That being said - what about someone of privilege working closely with a member of the marginalized group in question to write the story focused on the marginalized groups experience? If I'm not a rocket scientist want to write about rocket science consulting closely with an actual rocket scientist - is that ethically acceptable?

19 hours ago, neongrey said:

And it's important for the broader cultural context because, frankly, priveleged people navelgazing about things that don't have anything to do with them are a dime a dozen. And that is harmful.

I'm trying understand this sentence - can you say it more layman's terms? The way I deconstructed it is that you're saying 'privileged people thinking too much about themselves, their own experiences, which have nothing to do with them are a dime a dozen. And that's harmful.' or 'privileged people thinking deeply about issues and experiences which have nothing to do with them are a dime a dozen. And that's harmful.'

The later seems paradoxical, because I think that would actually be the opposite of harmful and the first just doesn't make sense. So, I think I'm understanding what you're trying to say totally incorrectly

plz help me!

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

 

Oooh, revisions. I always get excited about revisions!

 

 

Honestly, I feel like I have a much better time with revisions because the first draft feels more like a detailed outline of where I'm trying to go and just generally feeling out the direction of the characters. So I enjoy going back through and fleshing out scenes and fixing problems because I have something more to work with. 

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

I did notice though that you're writing in 'male gaze' (which isn't exclusive to men, plenty of women do it, too). At first I thought it was because Makyn only dialogues with women, so it would make sense for him to see them in more detail, but then the torturer isn't details at all, nor is Makyn. The women, on the other hand, are well detailed on their beauty but not much else. Something to be aware of, for later.

4

I think I do write in a males gaze - I can definitely see it. That being said - thought I gave a decent description of the Torturer, but maybe I need to do more - but it was definitely more than not at all.

eg. "A withered-looking Vasin with slick black fur stood next to a table.";

"The Vasin appeared to be mixing something at the moment while talking to himself and shaking his oily head.";

"He smiled broadly showing off his gnarled and rotted teeth."

Is that what you're looking for or are looking for a more concrete description of both the species and the character specifically?

I did purposefully describe Lillian the way I did because I'm toying with a romance possibility there.

I will try to keep my male gaze issues in mind when describing both women and non-women characters. Thank you for checking me on it!

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

Pretty well until the last two to three pages. I agree with @Hobbit that the wake up scene was by far the weakest. I was unconvinced he had been tortured at all.

Yeah I definitely need to do something about this!

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

- page two: so, I'm confused. It might be WRS, or it might be that the characters didn't grip me enough first time around to remember them. But these names and characters... who are these people? Where are we? I'm so confused.

 

What is WRS? The characters in this scene are the Vasin from chapter one and the two Ortan's who picked up Maykn from his home at the end of chapter 1. They are with the Potent. I may need to provide more information on who the Potent really is and her overarching role in Coreen, but to this point it isn't really relevant. What do you think?

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

- page four: the inevitability of his death should be brought out more in actions and thoughts, I think, before it is so broadly stated

I change this, thank you!

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

- page five: redundancy on 'subtle'

Eep!

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

Narrative wandering

What do you mean by narrative wandering?

Thanks again Kaisa!

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

leaving out details, using vague or generic descriptions, sentence structure, etc.  But you’ve got a good story here, and once you iron out your delivery, it will just get better.

 

I think this is going to be one of those things that just comes down to time spent practising and writing. I'll improve, but writing technicalities have ALWAYS been difficult for me. No matter how many books, articles or posts I read about sentence structure it just doesn't seem to be clicking.

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Show us their shock before you describe the woman.  The description of her seems matter-of-fact.  Also, I expect Maykn's shock to register before any of the details.

Thank you! I will edit!

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

The description of Maykn waking up was, at least for me, the weakest part of the chapter.  I wasn't buying into his feelings here.  I'm having trouble identifying exactly why, other than you describe what he sees and what he does without including how it's making him feel. You do say things like, "His head felt like it would split at any moment," but I think I'm missing the tone of hurting in this passage.  When you describe him fidgeting, I want to feel how he's trying to ignore his throbbing head while absently picking at his nails, but he's trembling so hard he can barely make two of his fingers meet.  And if he's cold and hurting all over, that will affect how his thoughts come through his head.  They might be slower, or more desperate, or he might have trouble putting two thoughts together.  (This is a hard thing to do well!) 

 

Kaisa mentioned this right after you. I need to read through this part and reworks I think. Maybe I can find some first person accounts of experienced torture because I was just having a difficult time visualising exactly how he might feel and at the same time what type of torture. It's something I need to work out.

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

In line comments on grammar and punctuation (not exhaustive - I'm sure I missed some things):

"I can smell your discomfort." The Vasin led them to the temple with his hands clasped behind his back...

She merely continued to read, focusing on what appeared to be a single passage in an old book.

Her Phearisan eyes a solid black with no visible whites. (<-- missing a verb here)

Maykn stood slowly, taking the chance to rub the lingering pain his neck.

Maykn couldn't feel anything(no comma) but his accelerated breathing.

The officers’ fingers dug into his arms and pulled them back painfully.

 

This was incredibly helpful for me - thank you!

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

A few times, you type Nobel instead of Noble.

Fixed! LOL

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

This seems like a comment that warrants a reaction from Maykn, but instead he just notices her hands.

Ah, good catch - will edit.

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Maykn looked back up at her, making eye contact. She backhanded him, spraying stars across his vision.
Here's a tip about when to include a comma.  If you can re-work the sentence to use an "and," it needs a comma.  For example, you could write, "Maykn looked up at her and made eye contact.  She backhanded him and sprayed stars across his vision."  When you take out the "and"s and change the verbs to "-ing" verbs, you need to add a comma as well.

 

VERY helpful - thank you!

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Might I suggest "held" a clear liquid?

I like it - i hated that i used contain twice like that but my brain wasn't coming up with a word.

6 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Too many "chair"s!

Yikes! i'll fix this, oops!

7 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Hehehe I think you mean "revulsion."  Revolution in his mouth makes me think of a cheesy commercial for soda.

Another oops - hah.

7 hours ago, Hobbit said:

But that's because I liked it and I want it to be better!  Hope something in there is helpful.

Thank you so much for reading it and the detailed crit it was super helpful and I'll keep them coming!

On 12/9/2016 at 3:15 AM, neongrey said:

Either way, don't let it hold you back for now.

Yeah, it's held me back from moving forward. I may get 10 chapters in and agree that it isn't necessary anymore and then I just wasted weeks for no reason.

On 12/9/2016 at 3:15 AM, neongrey said:

Also, you're gonna want 'circa' rather than 'approximately' on the attribution.

Edited. Thanks!

On 12/9/2016 at 3:15 AM, neongrey said:

Chided is pretty implied by the statement. Second paragraph is way telly. I would straight-up cut.

Ah, true, edited.

On 12/9/2016 at 3:15 AM, neongrey said:

Oooh, this last paragraph is... The first sentence is quite literally nonsensical, it is kind of all over the place. The second one is just, you're cramming too much stuff into it at once. The rest of it onto the next page is expositing way too hard.

 

 

 

I tried to clean this up and have made adjustments, thanks!

On 12/9/2016 at 3:15 AM, neongrey said:

You've got POV violations (the assumed was probably is, in addition to being clunky, just a figleaf on doing something the character can't really know. if you must have a character supposit something like this, and you're in pov, it needs to be actual surmise) in the first paragraph, and again, you're expositing way hard here.

 

 

 

Took me a minute to understand what you meant here, but I'm assuming this sentence? "They continued into the temple following a red runner worn from years of people visiting to worship." It's because I'm saying it as the narrator vs the POV of the MC correct? I will edit.

On 12/9/2016 at 3:15 AM, neongrey said:

The bottom half of the page is better but you're still saying outright what he's feeling.  Don't tell me how he hates it, don't tell me how it chafes, bake that into every sentiment, bake that into your viewpoint character's perceptions, let it colour what we the reader take away from the scene.

 

 

 

This has been difficult for me to get a balance on between knowing when showing isn't necessary and vice versa. I've gone through and tried to redo some scenes to be evocative vs informative. I think this is just one of those things that will take a ton of practice and revision to become second nature. Thank you for pointing it out!

Thank you for reading what you did! The last bit of the chapter was quite bad, so you didn't miss anything. I'm going to submit a revision this Monday instead of the next chapter only because the revision was so heavy. 
 

1 minute ago, kaisa said:

He got some good likes at a pitch event, which means his query will skip the slush pile for a few places and actually be read

Oooo that sounds like funsies  good job @Mandamon !
 

@Mandamon I'm not 100% sure what's happening, but it sounds awesome whatever it is - possible book deal? Either way, congratz!

I'd like to get in on the 12th as well

14 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

- I like the detail about the maids being disgusted, but Alandria's thought about Alluren seem out of place - it might be as simple as moving the sentence down a line and having it stand on its own.

Good catch, edited.

14 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

- Having seen previous drafts of this prologue, I did like when Lyzell's turning was more ambiguous. It seems here he's just possessed, which actually seems less threatening because it's easy to understand

I will edit this. I'm going to dramatically cut down the whole fight scene so I will try to make this more apparent in some way. Thanks!

14 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

- I also like the pacing and world-building on the second chapter. I'm curious where this is all going. 

Thank you for taking the time to read!

Okay, new question to pose, writing about current everyday objects in a new world with no basis for those objects. e.g. a vehicle. Do you come up with a new name for this mechanical device that is altered from our reality of it or do you just call it what it is? You tend to see this often with guns or military weaponry in books. In WoT RJ called coffee, kafe, and cannons, Dragons, etc. 

So, do i come up with a new name for flying vehicles that fits my realm?

I struggle with this sometimes because words have origins and those origins don't exist in some worlds, so there would be no basis for them.