TKWade

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34 minutes ago, TKWade said:

you're basically judging a book by its cover,

True, but this is how everyone will judge your book. To get an agent, they have to get past the first five pages or so. To hook a reader, they have to get past the first chapter usually. Fridging is a known and concerning trope, and it's existence in your prologue will lose you chances at both agents and readers.

 

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Touche.

Is it considered Fridging if I kill a male character to drive a female plot? Is killing characters, in general, to drive plot at all considered fridging and in bad taste?

I did a few quick searches on the term because I had never heard of such a thing. I get that it seems lazy, or it's considered at least a hallmark of lazy writing, so I'll work with it. I don't want someone to read my work and think, "Wow, that's the best he could do? Really?" 

I'll play around with the plot and the characters. Maybe I can find a way to make it work without using Alandria as a catalyst for Lyzell's weak character. I really wanted the readers to believe she was out of the picture for big reveal down the road.

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36 minutes ago, TKWade said:

I love strong female roles and I have one in this book.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. You can have strong women in a book and still fridge poorly-developed ones. You can fridge well-developed female characters. The trick is to understand that killing or injuring a female with no purpose other than to A) drive sympathy for another (usually male) character, B.) develop, in any way, a male character's.... character, or C) move the plot along, is fridging. Most people don't mean anything by it, because implicit bias is just that. What's important is to draw attention to it, so that writers see that they are doing it and think more about development of female characters as they write.

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I see an inherent problem here and it's probably due to my lack of understanding in literature, so correct me, please. If a character dies, it should affect the plot and the other characters in some way, I would imagine. It'll affect them on an emotional level and that should manifest itself in the development of that character. So, if killing a female character is considered fridging, can no female characters die? From what you're saying, the conclusion I'm coming to is this: Female dies, the character dies and affects an outcome of the plot, the character dies and affects other characters, character dying and affecting other characters or the plot is fridging hence, a female character dying, regardless of circumstance, is fridging.

So when or how do you kill off a female role and it not be considered fridging?
 

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13 hours ago, Tariniel said:

Oh, and kaisa is probably going to give you the fridging talk.

No refrigerator left unopened, no female left unspoken for!

 

LOL! Indeed!

Thanks for the response Kaisa!

To be fair, and now I feel it necessary to defend my plot to some extent, you're basically judging a book by its cover, so to speak. Which is probably the wrong way to say that considering you're actually reading it, but she doesn't exactly die in the prologue; the reader is meant to believe that she does. I'll grant you that I missed a huge opportunity by not clearly describing her and establishing her character. Her "death" is to do the exact opposite of build Lyzells character, on the contrary, his reaction to her death shows how weak his character is by his immediate submission to Osha, which I'll more clearly define in my revision. The purpose wasn't to kill her or injure her to build his character, but show the holes in his character and build a setup for later on down the plot line.

I obviously don't mean to be offensive to women, so I love your critique because it punches holes in my writing that I hadn't really considered. I grew up in a tiny town in the middle of Kansas and it was ingrained in me at a very young age that men protect and respect women, so I don't mean for it to sound like I don't give women their dues when it comes to the ability to fight or strength of character. One of my favorite all time characters is Vin, and another is Kahlan from Sword of Truth. I also had a love of the Aiel people in the Wheel of Time series and the depiction of women in their society. I want those types of roles in my own writing, so throughout the book, I hope to make those comparisons bleed through because I used them as some of my basis. I love strong female roles and I have one in this book. You don't see it in this chapter, however. My two main procrastinators are not mentioned at all in this submission and one is a strong, capable woman with plenty of sass that you don't want to mess with.

I didn't realize prologues were on the out. It just feels weird to go from chapter one to chapter two with a 500-year gap. Is that weird or do you think that would still work?

I loved your suggestions and I'll definitely take them into account in my revision!

Tariniel, to answer your question on the world building. It's been about 2 years since I started on the build. It started as a simple idea. I've always wanted to publish a book as a simple life goal, but more recently I've decided to really get aggressive with it. I enjoy writing and I got to a point for awhile where I just didn't know how to get started. I wrote the prologue i subbed months ago, but I couldn't find a group or even a person to give me feedback that i needed.

This group of people so far has been the most helpful thing I could have possibly hoped for. I really think with this feedback I can not only finish this book, but write a whole series. I'm really excited about that prospect.

My building process has been a little disjointed. I've built races, geography, economy, markets, politics, religions, magic systems, etc, but i find myself changing stuff all the time. I'm taking some of the advice regarding Elantris and i'm going to rename the Ulgarian race to the Allurians so that it's easier to remember both Alluren and where the race came from. It's fitting and I wish i would have thought of that in my first iteration. I'm sure i'll continue to make more and more changes. 

I love it though. I think world building is probably my favorite part. Creating the story around the world and a cohesive plot is going to be a major challenge for me, but one I really look forward to. At the end of the day I hope I can just continue to enjoy the process and keep learning.

I love the detail in your critique. It's what I need, sometimes what we want to hear isn't what we need to hear, and that's more than okay.

I like the blunt comments, they get under my skin a little but I find that encouraging in a way. It allows me to use that emotion in my revision and sometimes that means writing it the same but in a different way just to prove something can work lol. But there is a ton of value in being offended by blunt, honest critiques if the person on the receiving end handles it well and turns it into great emotional writing.

I enjoy long critiques because they can uncover some of the finer details and I think it's the culmination of finer details that make a good novel a great one.

Ah yes, I get it (fridging), but I'm not sure that definition would apply. Without giving away too much of the plot, her story doesn't end there. I may be different as a male writer in that I gravitate towards strong female roles, not sure why that is, but I do. She isn't the main protagonist, but neither is Lyzell.

EthanBassett,

Thanks for the kind words. I would love to hear your variation to help give me ideas to build tension. I'm trying to use that last scene to really foreshadow the larger scope of the plot. The readers wont realize it at the moment, but that scene will come back later on and become a sort of pivotal moment for the story.

Thanks again!

Thanks for the crit Sasooner! 

I'll  take those suggestions to heart you made some compelling points regarding a character's wants. I'll try to introduce the character earlier and expand their wants and needs.

Thanks!

Thanks Tariniel!
 

I went that direction with the first couple of paragraphs because I really enjoyed Robert Jordan and how he would start his books with a bit of a prose to really solidify a scene, but I think I ended up doing it poorly. It definitely needs work, but I think I'm going to chop it up. If this is going to be my first book then I want the reader to feel like they can't stop reading.

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• The paragraph describing Lyzell seemed a bit forced. They are in a frantic dash for escape, after all. Why is he thinking about all this stuff?

 - Here I was really just trying to information dump a little bit to give the reader an idea of how to imagine what an Ulganian would like before starting the dialog, it was more about creating the setting at that moment in time. I can see how how it seems to slow it down and cause a loss of urgency. I'll rework this. I can find better way to dump that information on the reader that flows with the frantic setting better.

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• "Hopelessness drove the Ulganian residents from the beautiful City of Alluren." Oh, it was the hopelessness. I was under the impression that it was because their whole storming city was on fire and under attack by a hostile army! 

- You're totally right. I don't know what I was going for here. Just that feeling of total despair and pain at seeing everything you love pulled down around you and fleeing with that hopeless feeling, not fleeing because of it, but fleeing with it and that loss your heart, knowing that life will never be the same. I need to rework that sentence or just remove it.

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• "They would travel lightly so they could move quickly." Here is where you may have to drop a couple of the descriptions. Doesn't seem like the time to be admiring the "railing gilded beautifully by a masterful carpenter" and the "long kitchen filled with the finest kitchenware."

- Right again. I just want to imbue this sense the spender of the building and architecture in Alluren and what is being lost in the world with it's destruction. I think I'm taking it too far. I need to let the readers imagination also work in the world creation maybe.

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• "Alandria grabbed his head firmly between her strong hands and forced his head up." “You didn’t come all this way just to fail did you?” These lines make Lyzell seem completely incompetent. Alandria seems to be the one running the show, but she keeps deferring to him at times, for no apparent reason. Is this intentional?

- I wasn't trying to make him seem completely incompetent, but that they are interdependent. She definitely has stronger character and that is by design and that plays into the major story line. His will power and strength of character wont match her own. She's meant to feel like a minor character in the prologue, but she isn't in the grande scheme of this first novel. And Lyzell's weak character comes into play and I was trying to portray that in a way when he surrender's his will to Osha towards the end. That's not something that Alandria would ever do. I'm probably giving too much away, but this being what it is I think that's probably okay.

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• "as a blood started running out of the corner of her mouth." I had to reread this a couple times to figure out what happened. I'm still a little confused. Did the Drouvlan hit her with the ax? I'm not quite sure about this, but would blood actually run from the mouth immediately? Also, why doesn't he mention the huge gash in her back? And why does she slip to the ground slowly? Shouldn't she be thrown forward from the blow? I feel this part could use a little more explanation.

- I'll have to do a bit more explaining on this in my revision i'm trying to leave it a little vague on purpose, that was intentional. I also wanted to give the sense that from Lyzell's perspective none of that matters. Nothing matters because she's dead, so they were details not important to the character in the story, that being said i think you're still right in that more explanation may be in order to prevent confusion.

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• One thing that's been bothering me throughout. If they were going to deliver the letter after leaving the city, why did he have to wait until the last moment to write it in his house? Couldn't he have just written it once they'd escaped?

- I don't have a great reason for that yet. I will work on that because that is a big hole that I should have seen.

What's the fridging talk? lol 

Hi Krystal!

Thank you for the kind words of encouragement, that means a lot!

I will definitely take those points into account on the revision. I'm going to really change it up and get another sub out soon with a much better hook and hopefully, make the read feel smoother and flow better.


Thank you!

I only see the one post. Mine acted like it posted 3 time earlier. There is a 'hide' option that appears to act as a sort of delete button. But I'm only seeing the one.

I'll take the naming idea into account in my revision also, thank you for clarifying! I'm going to have to start rewatching his lectures and maybe doing short exercises to practice the different techniques he talks about.

Thanks again

Hey Ernei, thanks for the crit.

I was worried about how that would work with google drive. It wouldn't let me attach it like a document straight from the drive, so next time I'll download it and then upload.

This is the type of feedback I need. I'll check out Elantris. I have been wanting to read it. I'm super new so I'm going to make rookie mistakes like a paragraph full of descriptions that are long and impossibly painful to get through. I'll definitely revise and take your suggestions to heart. I've listened to a few of his lectures online, but I haven't practiced much to be totally honest. Everyone starts somewhere I guess lol

I'll trim it up a lot and maybe use more dialog. I just wasn't sure how to start out an epic while giving a visual for a massive, tranquil city under attack. I wanted to really describe it's grandeur so it would be appreciated as sort of the height of civilization at the time. I'll find a better way to do it.

I really like unusual and unique names. It's probably not a good trait since it can make it difficult and annoying for the reader.

Again, thanks, I appreciate the time you took.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to read my piece.

As stated in the submission, I'm new to writing and am looking to improve my skill. Any critiques will be appreciated and any help with sentence structure and punctuation would also be very helpful. Please be nitpick it to pieces.

I also have a feeling that the first couple of paragraphs are too lengthy and that I'm dumping too much information on the reader at once creating a lull that might prevent a reader from wanting to continue. Thoughts on that?


Thank you!

Hello everyone! I'm one of the newbies and I would like to submit this upcoming Monday if a spot is still open. Really anxious to get started on getting better