Toaster Retribution

Nepotism means...?

Both Azure/Vivenna and Zahel/Vasher has had important roles to play so far in SA. I'm pretty interested in what role they will play in the future of SA. Any ideas? And also, am I the only one who prefer the name Azure to Vivennas original name.

Saw the first episode yesterday, and it was pretty good. Landry, the main character, was pretty interesting, and so was the plot. Anyone seen it?

If I recall correctly, Venli never wanted to kill Eshonai. She is in fact very sad when she finds Eshonais corpse. Furthermore, Venli tries to be a good person because she realizes that serving Odium was a bad idea, partially because the Listeners are used as cannon fodder, and partially because she didn't get the power she was after. I don't think she realized that a Nahel Bond was possible until very late in OB, sonI doubt that was a factor. The Parshendi characters are least interesting to me in the story though, so I might be misremembering Venlis motivations.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine Spot on! @Greywatch As hoidit said, Amaram sees the world through a different lens than us, and thinks that his actions will, ultimately lead to the greater good. He doesn't know how flawed his worldview is. He killed his men for the greater good. Vin in Mistborn is prepared to kill random skaa servants for the greater good. She never has to, but she states that she would if she thought she had to. But we praise Vin as a hero, just as we praise Kelsier, or Dalinar as heroes. The only difference between them and Amaram is that their worldview happened to be correct, and that they are the protagonists, while Amarams happened to be flawed, and he himself got an antagonistic role.

To be honest, she is attempting to stop slavery with her conquest, so she does have a good reason for her actions. My point is that a person unable to see their own faults but very able to see those of others is: A) Not very nice to be around B ) Doing something bad in itself C) Agitating the person they are trying to course correct with their hypocrisy. If a hypocrite tells you something, you are unlikely to do as they say. It is basically the man in the mirror. Fix your own faults before hammering down on others.

Regarding Amaram: I think you are too hard on him. He has done things for the greater good, and probably sees them as a great sacrifice. Then everyone hates him for it. Meanwhile Dalinar did bad things, for what in Amarams mind probably is a good cause too (unifying Alethkar), and has gotten away with mostly praise for it. I see Amarams point. On hypocrisy: People who are preachy and doesn't follow what they preach are irritating because people like that demonstrates an inability to see their own mistakes, and a fondness for pointing out those of others. Daenerys Targaryen (ASoIaF/GoT) is a great example of this. She is mad that Robert Baratheon took her throne, and hates him and demands it back because it is her right. She then happily conquers other peoples cities, tries to be their queen, and burns the protesters. She is the same as Robert, but is blind to her faults. That is why hypocrisy is irritating, and dangerous.

@wotbibliophile Dalinar has atoned. He suffered immensely from what he did on a psychological level. He became a wreck. He has since then dedicated his life to saving as many humans as possible. He walked out to face Odium and Nergaoul, and he did it for mankind. Atonement doesn't necessarily mean that he should give up everything his sins gave him, especially since his worst sin (Rathalas) has next to nothing to do with his current status in the world. What would Dalinar have to do in order for you to forgive him?

@Ymawgat I think we are supposed to like Venli for the same reason as we like Dalinar. She is trying to change and become better.

It is because he is awesome.

Quick question: Pattern wields a glass branch in the fight at the Oathgate before Dalinar creates a perpendicularity. Is this something he just found lying around in Shadesmar, or does Pattern have some wierd power that lets him summon glass branches? It'd be awesome if that was the case.

@Govir Huge Mistborn spoiler:

Huge spoiler for all Mistborn books:

Szeth is a coward, and is basically a slave to his culture. He follows their laws and codes in a precise manner, because is he afraid of going against them. He never chose to be an assassin, nor to kill people. In fact, he wants to avoid it. The honor he has lies in that he follows a set group of laws or codes to the end. That is essentially what honor means. It isn't always good. And Szeth is an extremely honorable character. As for his redemption... well, he is fighting for the good side now, and would give his life for Dalinar at this point. I'd say that he is pretty far away from Hitler distributing pictures to jews.

I like this idea a lot. We don't know what happened to Melishi, but it sounds reasonable that he abandoned his oaths like the other Radiants, and killed the Sibling. What does this mean? Always wondered.

He is actually the Tukari God-Priest. Emul has some other kind of leader. You are correct about Paliah though. The most popular Chana theory is that she is Liss, the assassin in the WoR prologue. As for Vedel... I don't think there are any major theories about her.

Brandon won't bring back Elhokar, just as he won't bring back Eshonai or Amaram. He promised to chill on the resurrections. Furthermore, Aesudan is most likely dead too, since Yelig-Nar appears without a host at Thaylen City.

I agree, and I disagree. Moash and Kaladin are similar, and Amaram, Nale and Mr T are all more interesting. Could I kill Moash, and bring back Amaram, I would. However, saying that Moash isn't complex is unfair. The fact that he has lost hope in humanity is a pretty neat idea, and I do see where he came from. He is Kaladin, but without the strenght to make the right choices, just as Amaram in OB was Dalinar without the strenght to make the right choices. He is obsessed with hate and vengeance, and is basically a monster created by oppression. He is however quite unlikeable (he was unlikeable even before he turned bad), and his chapters weren't that interesting. Partially because we don't like him as a person, and partially because nothing really happened. He mostly just wandered around with the Voidbringers, and killed Jezrien at the end (that scene was good). I am not overly fond of Moash either, and I prefer most SA antagonists over him. But he is not a bad character, and he has the potential to go somewhere interesting. Oh, and killing Sadeas was probably for the best. He was kind of redundant for the narrative at that point.

Amaram is one of my favorite SA characters (and Cosmere characters in general). The main problem with him as a character, is that Brandon didn´t show enough of him. You can piece together his character with hints in the text, but he doesn´t get the page-time he needs. I think this is the reason for why he is disliked. A lot of people either just thinks he is a bad human being, or a flat out bad, bland character. I disagree with both of those statements, and here is why (essay incoming): First thing to understand about Amaram is that he is a religious fanatic. The fact that he is part of the Sons of Honor is proof enough of this. The things he does for that organisation (betraying Kaladin and planning to bring back the Voidbringers) are obviously very bad things. Amaram goes through with this because he believes it will bring the best possible end result, which, in his world, appears to be a mass conversion to the Vorin church. We, as readers, see that this is a pretty bad idea, but Amaram doesn´t. He is consumed by his religion, and probably wants to "save" the world by saving the souls of the people/helping them get to the Tranquiline Halls, and turn their focus back to the Almighty. I can see why this would appeal to him, considering how religious he apparently is. From his point of view, mass conversion is a good thing. A lot of people disagree with this worldview. I disagree with it. But we can not really call someone evil just because their ideal world is different from ours. The other major thing about Amaram is his thirst for glory. He wants to be a hero, and he wants to save the world. He wants to be the good guy. He mentions how his mother raised him to be the best soldier in the history of Alethkar. It does sound like he had lofty ideals to achieve from a young age, placed on him by his mother. That might explain where his thirst for glory comes from. Finally, we have his guilt. The guilt is what eventually breaks Amaram. He hates the things he has done. He says so time and time again. He hints that Restares had to talk him into killing Kaladins men. He spares Kaladin because of his guilt. He feels bad about the casualties during the Desolation he has tried to cause. Partially, this hurts him because he is a good person, deep down. He is kind to his servants, he tries to help Tien and calm down his family, he is known for being a nice person to most people. He lapses sometimes, and hides it, because he is afraid that his reputation will fall, and thus, his (and his mothers) dreams of glory. I think those dreams are another reason for Amarams guilt. He knows that he has failed. That he isn´t the hero he wants to be. And then, Odium comes. Somehow, Odium manages to show Amaram that the Heralds lied, and that the Almighty is dead. He shows Amaram that his religion is a lie. The only thing Amaram had to justify his actions, his religion, is now gone. He breaks down, just like Dalinar does after killing Evi. He gets the same offer as Dalinar. Odium promises to take away his guilt. Not every human being is as strong as Dalinar. Actually, most people probably aren´t. Amaram isn´t. He joins Odium, to get rid of his pain. Then he eats a gemstone, and gets digestive problems (also known as Yelig-nar), before he is finally headshot by Rock. In-world, Amaram will most likely be remembered as the despicable scumbag who betrayed mankind and got what he deserved. That is a very tragic fate, considering that he started out as a man who tried to follow his mothers wishes, and do good for humanity. That is how I see Amarams character, anyway.

Surgebinding is awesome if you want an epic, badass, super cool magic system. You go with that if you want flat out amazing stuff. Mistborn is better for analyzing, and discussing. It is more scientific. As a lot of others have said, they speak to different groups of people.

@Andy92 Wow, those are some really interesting WoBs. There is apparently more to Miles than I thought (just considered him a cool but dead antagonist). The major question here is how Trell contacted him, and what he knew (as well as why he didn't tell us anything in his POVs).

I am very fond of Szeth and pretty meh on the Listeners, so I'd go with him. That said, I hope to gain some interest in the Listeners after book 4, which I guess will focus pretty heavily on them. But I'm more excited for Szeth than Eshonai.

I think Mraize has something new. The situation in which he uses it (a servant Ialai) probably hints at what it can do. He wouldn't bring it unless he didn't need it. Upvote for the Arthas reference :-D

I think Trell is Autonomy, but I doubt Kelsier works for her. It would be a pretty big departure from his character. Kelsier is loyal to Scadrial and its people, and he also loves Sazed and Marsh, two people he would have to fight as agent of Autonomy. He will probably work against any Shardic invasion, unless Sazed turns into a new TLR/Ruin.

Kelsier would best TLR if both are Fullborn. He is more clever, and fights more dirty. Plus, his hatred for Rashek would fuel him, and he would also know how to remove TLRs metalminds. Vin takes Marsh. She is a powerhouse. W&W wins, because Nazh and Khriss doesn't have much feats as far as I know.