Toaster Retribution

If you are a complete badass, who enjoy 1000 page epics with three prologues and a learning curve as steep as the Empire State Building, you should start with Stormlight. If not, you should read Mistborn era 1 and preferably Warbreaker, and then read Stormlight because its a storming masterpiece.

Anyone think Richard Dormer (Beric Dondarrion on GoT) would make a good Kelsier/Marsh?

Need to drop a mention for Beric Dondarrion in the show version of Game of Thrones too. Dude´s a badass over there. He reminds me a bit of a Jedi Knight, with his flaming sword. Oh, and for Inheritance, it´s Murtagh.

Agreed. Two knives would have been better.

So you rank Sadeas above those two? Interesting.

I am inclined not to judge Szeth too harshly until we know his entire story, but as it stands now, I would rank both Taravangian and Amaram above him. That said, we should wait until we know more about the Shin culture, and Szeths former life.

I generally believe that most people aren't bad, and I don't see Taravangian or Amaram as bad. I see them as misguided men who commits bad actions in attempts do great good. Criminals who commit bad actions for their family, or just steal from rich people to buy food for themselves are not bad people either. I tend to think that humans are complex creatures, and deeming them bad is often the same as simplifying things a great deal. Look at Mr. T and Amaram, and then at Sadeas and Straff. Sadeas and Straff are clearly worse than T and Amaram, because they are selfish bastards who cares for none other than themselves. T and Amaram both do. Sadeas and Straff feels no remorse, T and Amaram does. Sadeas and Straff does bad things for themselves only, while T and Amaram does them for others. T is even willing to bear the burden of his actions for others. In Mr. T and Amaram we see things that are praised as good traits when they belong to protagonists. We also see bad actions that comes from them being misguided. But they do not want to harm anyone, and they are not doing it for themselves. Thats the difference for me.

I disagree. Taravangian is definitely not a terrible human being. When I wrote that he was forced, I meant that he feels obliged to do the horrible stuff he is doing. What we need to do is separate actions and persons. Taravangians actions are horrible. Taravangian is not. The reason to why Taravangian is not a horrible dude is simple. He doesn't like doing the things he does, and he doesn't do them for himself. A person like Sadeas is horrible, because he is doing terrible stuff, for himself. He knows that it is bad, he has no need to be bad, but he is bad anyway. Taravangian kills people to save the world, not for personal gain. All those hospitals he builds are for real. He cares. He cares about people, and is willing to sacrifice his morality for the greater good. That is why Taravangian is a good person, in my estimation.

@Nathrangking You raise valid points. Regarding Zahel and connections to other stories, I really don´t have much to say except that his internal monologues probably would contain a lot of references to Nalthis, which might be wierd for the readers who aren´t Cosmere-aware. When it comes to his presence at the feast, there are some things to mention. First, we do not know wether he is the first-sword of the Kholin household. Personally, I doubt that he is. It feels like he would have a higher position in that case, unless he purposefully avoided promotion. However, it is not certain that he was at the party anyway. Zahel is no guard; he is an ardent, and a swordmaster, and his job is to train lighteyes with their weapons, not to guard the king. Furthermore, if Zahel had been at the party as some sort of guard, he should have rushed to save Gavilar, unless he purposefully avoided it because he wanted him to die. I also want to point out that Zahel doesn´t have any information about the party and what went down, as far as we know. Sadeas and Amaram both spent time with Gavilar during the evening. Sadeas would show the decoy-plan, his relationship with Gavilar, as well as what they spoke of, while an Amaram POV would give insights into the Sons of Honor, and Gavilars involvement with them, as well as showing something of the relationship between Amaram and Jasnah. Elhokar would give us a look at his feelings and thoughts when Gavilar died, something that is vital for his character. In addition, we would see Gavilar, Jasnah and Dalinar from a new perspective, see Elhokar with his wife, and, most importantly, hear his conversation with Nale and Kalak. Nale, in turn, would provide information about the Heralds, as well as another new and interesting POV perspective. Aesudan would offer another perspective, along with possible answers to a couple of reader questions. Why does Jasnah hire Liss in order to (maybe) assassinate her? Why is she completely bonkers in Kholinar right now? What is her feelings for Elhokar? What we have to consider is what new a Zahel Prologue-POV would add? Why would it be important enough to take the one remaining POV-space (since Gavilar is pretty much guaranteed as the book 5 POV). Also, I hope I don´t sound to harsh or anything. Apologizes, in that case.

We have Sadeas as well. He would be one of my top choices. It could be very interesting.

@maxal I have heard your idea about Elhokars future story and development before in another thread (long ago), and I really like it. I would love if that happened, but I would also love if Elhokar got to man up a bit, and become a more symphatetic character to the readers, and a better man as well. I like the guy (as you probably understand, given our long discussion about him). The best possible outcome for Elhokars storyline would, in my opinion, be the one were he does manage to fix some of his faults, and even becomes a more symphatetic character, that more readers can relate too, as well as becoming an antagonist to Dalinar. I feel like that would be truly interesting. Regarding the duel, I don´t recall anything about Elhokar preventing Dalinar from sending runners to Adolin, only that he stopped him from entering the arena himself.

In addition to what Calderis just stated, I also doubt that he was at the party, and if he was, he probably wasn´t very involved in the events that occurred there.

Welcome, hope you stay a loooong time! Have an upvote! Random question: who is your favorite Brandon character?

It might be due to the Heralds madness. Granted, I think there is at least some hundred years between breaking the Oathpact and the Recreance, so the madness would have had to come slowly in that case. Stil, since Roshar loves bonds, it would be logical to assume that there were some kind of bond between the Heralds and their Orders. And because of that, I think it is plausible that the Radiants went mad and abandoned their oaths, and betrayed mankind. They went mad along with their masters, simply.

I´m iffy on Nalan. I would like a POV from him, but it might reveal too much. It is possible though. Aesudan is another interesting possibility. Not very likely, but worth mentioning.

I disagree with this. First off, Elhokar can better himself without taking too much space. Brandon is a skilled enough writer to develop secondary non-POV characters while still keeping focus on the main story and the major protagonists. I also dont feel that it would be realistic for Elhokar to be in a state of stagnation, with him consistently being a bad king. He is important enough to warrant some development in his character, either toward making him a better person, or to make him a worse one. I would be okay with both, but I hope that he is going to become a better person, and that seems to be the direction he is currently pointing towards. I also think that Elhokar is working for becoming a better king. Admitting your faults to someone you have wronged isn´t easy. It requires swallowing your pride and being honest about your faults. That takes work. It also takes work to ask someone who is (from your point of view) beneath you for help. It takes work to try to figure out how to become better by yourself, which is what Elhokar himself states that he will do when Kaladin denies him help. He is working. You can have opinions about his motivation for working, and that he is doing it for selfish reasons, but I think it is hard to deny that he is fighting for becoming better. I agree that it is completely wrong to value Shards over Adolin, which I admit that Elhokar did during the fight. I do think however that he is right in preventing Dalinar from fighting. He does this when his Shards are no longer in danger of being lost. He does this because he is worried that Dalinar might die, which is how Adolin thinks as well. Adolin himself tells Dalinar that he is the most important one of them all, which is why he goes to see Eshonai instead of Dalinar. Adolin and Elhokar both know that Dalinar cant die. I strongly doubt that Adolin would have allowed Dalinar to enter the duel. I feel like he would have agreed with Elhokars assessment of the situation, that it was too risky. I don´t even think that Elhokar stopping Dalinar from joining the fight was immoral. What I think was immoral was not joining the fight himself, because that is something he could have done (which he later acknowledges and regrets not doing).

We'll agree to disagree then :-) (even though you have good and valid points, as usual). I doubt we should derail this thread further with off-topic GoT discussion anyway.

@maxal About GRRM and killing characters mid-arc (ASoIaF):

The thing is, we see clear signs of change in Elhokar. We know that he isn't proud of his actions, and that he wants to do the right thing. We know that he wants to change. I think that his interactions with Kaladin, and actually being saved from two assassins will change his outlook on life. He tries to make the best of his situations too. He arguably saves Dalinars life during Adolins duel, he brought the darkeyes to the arena, he asked Kaladin for advice and admitted his mistakes. Elhokar doesn't lack the will to change. He lacks the strenght (and yes, maybe compassion).

I hope we get Sadeas, Amaram or Elhokar for book 4. Sadeas because he was in the middle of all the action, and he probably wins the Hero of the Evening award for what he did. I would love to see how different he was back then compared to how he is in WoK and WoR. Amaram is because I like the guy, and I also think that it would shed more light on the Sons of Honor, as well as on Amaram himself, and maybe make him more relateable. Elhokar because we haven't had a POV from him. I would also love to hear his discussion with Nale and (maybe) Kalak. Plus, seeing his thoughts and feelings during this night, which is arguably the most impactful event in his life would help his character.

@maxal I agree with all your points above about Kaladin not being very loving. However, there can be variations on loving, just like there are variations on being honorable, just, resourceful and so on. For example, Adolin is seen as a potential Edgedancer. Would he have hugged Sadeas?

If Hoid likes instant noodles, I imagine Kelsier likes nutella. That would make a great conflict (would probably lead to Brandon creating Era 5). Oh, and I'm not actually sure if I have ever eaten nutella in my life. Please dont judge me.

I doubt they can. It seems like the spren have their true form in the Cognitive. I dont think they can change shapes there. It feels likely that they are bound to one form in the CR.

Hah. Well, now you know.

Thanks for the tip. Dunno if roleplaying Surgefinding is my thing, but if I ever feel like checking it out, I know where to go.