hoser

We all get to choose our own definitions. Ultimately, whatever Brandon says will prevail on this site. For me, it's common sense that if lashings are an example of binding a surge, then Szeth is a surgebinder. It's an ability, so how he gets it doesn't matter. Then we have different kinds of surgebinders: Nahel-bond surgebinders, Szeth-type surgebinders. Darkness can infuse, but can he surgebind? If so, then we have Darkness-type surgebinders. Some believe that Heralds will end up being surgebinders also. If they do, it could be innate, from the Honorblades or some other means that we are ignorant of so far. Some believe that storm-form Parshendi will turn out to be surgebinders. With Heralds and Parshendi, that gives us five different types of surgebinder. If the Honorblades provide surgebinding and both Szeth and Darkness have Honorblades, then we have only three kinds of surgebinder. Does this make sense? But if being a Herald provides surgebinding, that does not mean that surgebinding provides heraldry. If Szeth has an Honorblade and the specialness of a Herald is entirely bound up in the sword, there might be an argument for Szeth being a Herald (although he still lacks the history and knowledge). I think the Heralds are innately different. So far, I can only point to the Heralds being immortal (assuming that Szeth isn't immortal) and Honor talking about forming the Heralds (Purelake vision) as differences, but I believe more differences will become known and I am not convinced that the Heralds aren't innately surgebinders. But this all fantasy until March and, as you well know, I know nothing.

Well, I like that Kaladin is going to have a badass appearance to go with his bad attitude about lighteyes. When the highest ranked darkeyes anyone can remember goes around with "dangerous slave" written on his forehead in the King's court that will be fun for Brandon to write and for us to read. Although I am largely unconcerned with the theoretic foundations, it makes intuitive sense to me that if Kaladin received Regrowth, the brands would remain. OTOH, if his forehead had all the tissue around the scars removed and he were then "Regrowth"ed, would the brands reappear? My intuitive feel is that the brands would not reappear, but I am curious about the theoretical perspective.

I really like the OP focus (upvote!). There have been threads about the Oathpact and they are intertwined, but with the Lift interlude we have some more information. There seem to be additional hints about the Desolation trigger. Why did the Heralds have to leave the swords? The swords would automatically return them to the place of torture, which would enable Desolations. I believed this for a long time, but there are issues with this. The swords may be powerful, but the Kalak POV doesn't have him interacting w/his. I infer from this that the swords are essentially passive objects. They could act as homing beacons for a Shard to forcibly yank the Heralds back, but Kalak seems to think that the return is voluntary. The Honorblade-Herald interaction contributes to Desolations. This is an interesting possibility in that it could fit in with what Darkness said. If the Nahel bond has a similar effect (or if Darkness thinks it does), then this possibility allows us to explain both the leaving of the Honorblades and Darkness' persecution of Nahel-bond surgebinders with a single cause (this assumes that Darkness has access to information that the Heralds apparently have). Does whatever Gavilar did (possibly involving the dark sphere that he gave Szeth) that the Parshendi were desperate to stop relate to triggering desolations? The Parshendi apparently thought it would bring something on. Mr. T seems to think that the death rattles started about that time. Wildly speculating, I can imagine that Gavilar wanted to bring the Knights Radiant back. For whatever reason, he could have done something to either remove a barrier to interactions between realms or create a bridge. With the realms closer, the dying might be able to see things and the spren might be able to create bonds more easily. OTOH Jasnah's shadow doing weird things seems to indicate that she was already starting to bond, so it may have facilitated the interactions, but they were already possible. The fact that Darkness and minions were active suggests that Nahel bonds were already possible also. What did Szeth do to earn his punishment? He says that "his honor demanded that they (Voidbringers) existed." Voidbringers seem to be associated with Desolations. I read this to mean that Szeth is being punished for something he did to harm the Voidbringers. He also says that all the rest of us have to watch the world ending. This implies that he knows about the final Desolation and that it was triggered before Gavilar did anything. This further implies that he has access to information unavailable to Darkness, as Darkness' activities would be moot once the Desolation is already triggered.

A few fragments drift up from my steadily worsening memory ... It sounds like you might not believe it was the assassination of the king of Jah Keved any more. I see problems with that idea also. Shallan was chasing Jasnah around on ships for months, then being her ward while Szeth was on his killing spree. The half-shard scene was in a massive chamber with multiple tables and bodies everywhere, whereas the sketch has a single table and a single body in a smaller room. As for other options, there will always be those. Given Shallan's history of hardly ever leaving the property, the default assumption seems like the Davar family mansion. I agree on the timing, but while Szeth was ordered to slaughter, I think there were meant to be witnesses. I don't think he went out of his way to kill everyone there.

I did reread the Lift interlude and I still don't see where you get a couple of months. I will paraphrase (since I don't want to quote) the passages I found: Given that they replaced the first within a week, I don't where they would mean months when they say weeks. What did I miss?

Good point! Displacing the interlude in time was presumably done for a reason. While it could have been that Szeth's assassination spree comes to an end (not that Szeth necessarily comes to an end), so the assassination would have to be placed earlier, there are many other possible explanations. It could certainly be withholding information about Darkness, as you say. It could also be sequencing for Lift, Darkness or the new Azish Prime.

Why does Shen take the initiative to get tattooed? Argent's explanations seem perfectly reasonable and I am not arguing against them, but I see some other possibilities. To start with, I interpret getting tattooed as an endorsement of his treatment by the rest of Bridge 4, implying perhaps that, given a choice, he would not be a slave. He could feel good about a lot of his treatment with Bridge 4 and not hold a grudge about the things he found offensive. This seems contradictory, as he is motivated by past events, but filters them in a skewed way, so I don't like this possibility. He could be passive and inarticulate, but at least reasonably intelligent. If he can understand the necessity and the value of the desecration of the Parshendi bodies even though he can't deal with it while it is going on, it might explain his behavior. I sort of remember that Parshendi are used to watch children, which would require great intelligence to perform effectively, so that also points toward the intelligent, passive and inarticulate model. This model seems like it has the most dramatic potential also, so I prefer it. While generally passive, he might have a preference for being treated as a person rather than a slave and that might rise through his passivity enough for him to make the gesture of getting the tattoo.

I consider it settled. It's interesting in that the two Azish Primes were not mentioned in tWoK. Brandon inserting the Azish primes assassination before the confrontation with Dalinar suggests to me that the confrontation will be decisive in some way.

I have really learned a lot and enjoyed this thread. The little I know about shipping, I learned in this thread. As a white male middle-class heterosexual, I probably define insensitivity. I like this thread partly because it is different. I want people who enjoy discussing these concerns to feel safe to do it here. This is a 17th Shard thread. This is a shipping thread. The shipping community has controversies, but apparently there are acceptable ways to disagree and ways that people find hurtful, possibly particularly around gender identity and orientation. In my ideal world, this thread and other shipping threads would have a special understanding. To post in these threads, one would implicitly agree to follow shipping-community guidelines. These guidelines would also be communicated or referenced so as many people as possible could learn by reading, rather than hurting.

Yes! And yes! Just out of a sense of responsibility, I want Kaladin to learn about the Assassin in White, particularly since he saw him in the Highstorm dream. I want him to be figuring out how to restrict access to Stormlight and plan a defense given his knowledge. Instead he is going to hide his knowledge and hope the assassin won't come. I suppose he could change his mind in a planning meeting w/Dalinar, but that seems like a slim hope. If they are totally unprepared for Szeth, it will certainly be dramatic when he shows, but it is painful to watch characters make obviously wrong choices in the meantime.

I think Wit is there for a reason. He is opposed to Odium, apparently, so I don't think he wants Taln buried in a cell. He is a lighteyes with status in the court, possibly an awesome weapon and access to more magic than we know. I think he will make sure that Taln is freed and invited to the Shattered Plains soon.

Presumably before (from Starfalls): "Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, and he is not often wrong." But we don't really know what comes after. In any case, it is not immediately following. There may not be a "border". The attacks could conceivably appear anywhere and the Knights detect activity anywhere on the continent. Hoid's story seemed to indicate a geographic origin, so it is hard to tell.

Of course. It could be an Honor-Cultivation or Honor-Cultivation-Adonalsium system. I really don't know. The main point was that I see the desolations being asymmetric, pitting people against Odium's elemental monsters. But, really, I know nothing .

I'm sorry. I misunderstood your original post. I thought you were asking about the supporting evidence for some prevailing assumptions, not looking for definitive statements about what is possible. If you have a theory that Odium (do you associate Odium with "the enemy"?) had armies of surgebinders with similar powers to the Radiants and that both sides fought with more or less similar methods, that's fine. I certainly can't prove otherwise. I personally like (but can't prove)the idea of Odium having a system wherein his Nazgul (herald counterparts, unmade), who may be somewhat incorporeal, corrupt/possess and create monsters. I see the part of warfare of a desolation as asymmetric, with heroes fighting elemental monsters. If Radiants could animate stone monsters, it would probably be better to have stone monsters going against stone monsters rather than costing human (and heraldic) lives. I don't see any textual support for this model of warfare. We have only seen isolated thunderclasts. Thematically, I see the Radiant system fitting for Honor, whereas corrupting spren and animating stone fits my model for how Odium would work. Given that we don't even know everything that larkin can do, their value hardly constitutes proof that Desolations involved competing armies of surgebinders using similar methods. There are other possible reasons for their value.

Here, although I believe Odium is somewhat invested in Roshar also.

Apparently the Radiants were the only ones with fabrials before the Recreance. The easy guess is that the fabrials that they passed on (blades, armor, soulcasters) are the ones we have now. There are hints that there were fabrials that mimicked the surges such as the Regrowth fabrial from the Starfalls vision and the Oathgates. Presumably the other Radiant-era fabrials were destroyed or placed somewhere inaccessible (up to now).

Based on this post in the other "I told you so" thread. Is that wrong? Just tell me what you want.

When the spren associated with the Reshi greatshell do magic as when they cushioned Rysn's fall, which system is that? When the aimians, the parshendi or the larkin do magical things, which system are they using? From the prelude, Dalinar's Nohadon vision, Dalinar's purelake vision and Szeth's understanding of history, thunderclasts seem to be fighting against the heralds, the humans and the Radiants in the desolations. They seem to be summoned/animated/formed from a spren by the opposition to humanity, presumably working for Odium. So they can only be considered evil if you consider desolations and Odium evil. People here may not have read Mistborn yet, so it is conventional to enclose references to non-Stormlight Archive works in spoiler tags, to keep from ruining their later discovery. Mistborn spoiler: . Since surgebinders (from what I've seen so far) are not able to create thunderclasts, I don't see how a competing army of surgebinders could create them. I think they are created by a different magic system than surgebinding. I don't think we know that Desolations are exclusively thunderclasts, nor do we know why dragonwasps are so prized. Nor do I understand why you link them.

I love the masochism (does that make me a sadist?), but these claims do not seem verifiable to me without clarity about what one expects and what are beloved. For the first you could just state no to Kurkistan's claim. For the second you could name characters or state it in terms of the POV characters, eg. "Seven of the following ten characters will die during the desolation: Dalinar, Szeth ...." Does that make sense to you?

I believe that there is WoB that there is more to the prelude than we see. In a horrible desolation, the survival of 9 heralds is suspicious. Did Odium make his minions let the heralds survive? Did Taln volunteer to suffer without some others? Did Odium or Honor communicate with Jezrien? I can only guess, but if Taln understood more than Kalak, it could affect his reaction. When he says that he has failed, it follows his announcement that the desolation has come. The obvious thought is that if he hadn't failed, the desolation wouldn't be here. His phrasing says "and I have failed," which could indicate that he had another purpose entirely, as the "and" would otherwise be superfluous. It seems that he is still fighting Odium and the Desolation, or he wouldn't have warned the guards of the impending disaster, so the only outcomes I can envision are some combination of the first and the fourth options of the OP. The only meaning I can discern for the tardiness is that there isn't enough time to defeat the Desolation, but there could be some other, more specific understanding of Wit's.

Renarin really has a lot going for him. He is brave: with the chasmfiend and going to Sadeas' camp With his disability, he can be both compassionate and able to see what others miss. He will not struggle w/arrogance and entitlement as Adolin will. He is defended against Sadeas (no-one lesser will mess w/him) and Wit's attention seems somehow supportive The smartest people around take him seriously and are influenced by his ideas: Dalinar, Adolin, Navani, Wit He is given responsibilities and Dalinar is concerned w/helping him be productive. He thinks creatively to find solutions: testing the visions Whether his disability is overcome or not, he can contribute greatly.

Well, he does seem to be a snotty twit at times, but Adolin's behavior in the courtesan incident seemed exemplary and he has proven himself educable w/respect to the codes. In the Tower battle, he generally acquitted himself well and took direction from Kaladin. If he doesn't die soon or change course, I would be surprised to find him not a Radiant. Brandon has already shown an interest in the education of the arrogant princeling.

Well, I may have been off, but please at least try to understand what I meant (not to imply that you haven't). This is a positive statement of your thesis: "pre-Recreance Radiantblades are one type of Shardblade and post-Recreance Radiantblades are another type" This is a positive statement of mine: "Radiantblades (pre- and post- Recreance) are one type" When you said: It looked like a strawman version of my thesis because it moves from talking about distinct types of blades to talking about blades being distinct. It was not your thesis I took as a strawman argument, but that sentence, which I may have misinterpreted. On reflection, my use of the word strawman does not seem helpful and I will try to avoid using it in future posts. While I may have thought you were stating an incorrect version of my thesis on the way to stating yours, your thesis seems valid and it I don't really know what you meant. TL;DR: good point. sorry

Ah Gloom, I apologize if I have offended. What is defense and what is attack can become murky. When you say that "pre-Recreance Radiantblades are one type of Shardblade and post-Recreance Radiantblades are another type", that is a thesis that contributes to our discussion and deserving of praise, rather than assault. Similarly, I have stated my thesis: "Radiantblades (pre- and post- Recreance) are one type". When you say: "To say that a Radiant Blade is the same as a modern Shardblade is to say that a corpse is the same a living person", who is throwing the first stone? No-one is saying that Radiantblades are the same as modern Shardblades, but I am saying that they are of the same type. In context, is that a misrepresentation and an attack? Anyway, please accept my apologies. I would rather shut up than offend you.

Yes! Very poetic! But a straw man nonetheless. When I die, my corpse will not be the same. It will change state but not type, it will still be a human corpse.